At what point would you lock down again?

[Frances]

1 hour ago, SeaConquest said:

 

And then you have the other nurses posting, in the midst of all this, about the morons who come in and still say stuff like, "I will only allow a blood transfusion from an unvaxed person" and "My husband and I aren't coming into the hospital [to deliver a baby] if we have to wear a mask."

Yeah, healthcare workers are exhausted. I am so so sorry.  

My mom had surgery today and when she went to the hospital complex yesterday for pre-op blood work, a man there threw such a fit about wearing a mask that they had to call security to remove him from the building.

[ktgrok]

44 minutes ago, mathnerd said:

I actually found the courage today to tell someone IRL that the fact that they have been pushing the use of a bovine dewormer not approved for Covid treatment while shunning an effective vaccine that has been rolled out to millions because they don't understand the fact that mRNA technology has been around for more than a decade and is not a new technology makes zero sense to me. That seemed to get through to my person, somewhat ... i will have to wait a week to see if my reasoning stuck or if they are back to microchips in vaccines encrypting genetic code and sending it to Bill Gates.

And if they are so scared of mRNA tech (and by the way..what happened to not living in fear?) then why not just get the Johnson and Johnson vaccine?

[SeaConquest]

2 hours ago, KSera said:

I saw a really emotional post from a nurse yesterday, where she was having a bit of a post work breakdown in her car after work, saying it was the worst day since this whole thing started, and losing other parents her age, with kids still at home, and putting them on ventilators not knowing if they'll get off, etc, and I was gobsmacked at the number of replies from people whose only response was to lambaste her as an obvious fake because her eyes weren't moist enough or her voice didn't crack at the right times. Absolutely sick. People have become appalling through this.

Appalling is right. Here is another I just read:

 

[wathe]

2 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

Appalling is right. Here is another I just read:

 

Getting spit on at work is unpleasant.  So is getting screamed at, sworn at, cat-called, pinched, hit, slapped, swatted at, scratched, bitten, licked, kicked, bodychecked, having a book thrown at your head from behind, and having a chair thrown at you. Ask me how I know.   #EmergLife.

[brehon]

10 hours ago, wathe said:

Getting spit on at work is unpleasant.  So is getting screamed at, sworn at, cat-called, pinched, hit, slapped, swatted at, scratched, bitten, licked, kicked, bodychecked, having a book thrown at your head from behind, and having a chair thrown at you. Ask me how I know.   #EmergLife.

Yup. Also, having a knife or gun pulled on you, having a patient suddenly have a psychotic episode in the back of the moving ambulance and attack you, etc. 

[Faith-manor]

1 minute ago, brehon said:

Yup. Also, having a knife or gun pulled on you, having a patient suddenly have a psychotic episode in the back of the moving ambulance and attack you, etc. 

And in the case of dd, transporting and treating a prisoner from the maximum security prison who told her when be got out, he was going to find her! Oy. Scary.

Our HCW's deal with a lot of truly abusive, frightening, dangerous crap!! We don't appreciate them enough.

[Carrie12345]

16 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

No. That’s what is scary. Schools go back Monday. I’m guessing a lot of these cases are coming from summer child care and summer camp programs, or maybe summer school, since there were optional ESY programs available. 

Just saw pics online from our cc’s summer day camp. Little kids, indoors, next to one another, no masks.

[SeaConquest]

11 hours ago, wathe said:

Getting spit on at work is unpleasant.  So is getting screamed at, sworn at, cat-called, pinched, hit, slapped, swatted at, scratched, bitten, licked, kicked, bodychecked, having a book thrown at your head from behind, and having a chair thrown at you. Ask me how I know.   #EmergLife.

I am with you. One of my colleagues had his nose broken by a patient a few weeks ago. Management hasn't even asked him how he is doing. I've been lucky thus far. Physically, I've only been kicked in the stomach. Last weekend, one of my patients called me a whore, a moron, an idiot, a prostitute, and accused me of poisoning her and stealing her nails. This patient also had numerous "virtual PhDs" and "tons of money," so she didn't need to talk to the social worker about applying for benefits. Good times. Female psych patients are generally much more difficult for me than the men.   

[Faith-manor]

7 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

I am with you. One of my colleagues had his nose broken by a patient a few weeks ago. Management hasn't even asked him how he is doing. I've been lucky thus far. Physically, I've only been kicked in the stomach. Last weekend, one of my patients called me a whore, a moron, an idiot, a prostitute, and accused me of poisoning her and stealing her nails. This patient also had numerous "virtual PhDs" and "tons of money," so she didn't need to talk to the social worker about applying for benefits. Good times. Female psych patients are generally much more difficult for me than the men.   

Wow! Ugh.

[Arcadia]

@mathnerd because we are in the same region. My husband just received a memo that back to office is postponed to January. Guess its a good thing my kids’ fall quarter dual enrollment classes are all online (though they would like to be on campus). My district starts back in person on August 12th.

[Jean in Newcastle]

50 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

I am with you. One of my colleagues had his nose broken by a patient a few weeks ago. Management hasn't even asked him how he is doing. I've been lucky thus far. Physically, I've only been kicked in the stomach. Last weekend, one of my patients called me a whore, a moron, an idiot, a prostitute, and accused me of poisoning her and stealing her nails. This patient also had numerous "virtual PhDs" and "tons of money," so she didn't need to talk to the social worker about applying for benefits. Good times. Female psych patients are generally much more difficult for me than the men.   

Just picking one quote out of the many because I don't want to multi-quote:  in local  hospitals there are signs up saying that care will be refused to violent patients or they will be prosecuted (I assume based on the need for care and the extent of violence - if it's just verbal or physical etc.   Is this not the case everywhere? 

[SeaConquest]

6 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Just picking one quote out of the many because I don't want to multi-quote:  in local  hospitals there are signs up saying that care will be refused to violent patients or they will be prosecuted (I assume based on the need for care and the extent of violence - if it's just verbal or physical etc.   Is this not the case everywhere? 

We have the option to file a police report, but patients often don't go to jail because they are deemed mentally incompetent to stand trial under CA law as a result of their disability, and the local jails and CA state hospitals don't have beds available for them. Because we are the county psych hospital, we often end up getting them back months later. So, I didn't file a police report when the patient kicked me because I knew there was nowhere for him to go. He is just too mentally ill. He would never stand trial and go to jail. His MRIs show that his brain is literally shrinking from schizophrenia. How can I punish him for being sick?

The patient that broke the guy's nose was similarly mentally ill with schizophrenia. I wasn't in the cafeteria when the incident happened, but I was with the patient in the emergency psych unit at our hospital during day shift before he was moved to a longer-term inpatient unit, and it was obvious to me that the patient was not yet stable. I don't know why they let him go to the cafeteria. Someone dropped the ball on that and one of our techs got hurt as a result. Please don't quote.

    

[Faith-manor]

22 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Just picking one quote out of the many because I don't want to multi-quote:  in local  hospitals there are signs up saying that care will be refused to violent patients or they will be prosecuted (I assume based on the need for care and the extent of violence - if it's just verbal or physical etc.   Is this not the case everywhere? 

No, that is not everywhere.

[LucyStoner]

We were told that my husband's work would be back in person this August.  In reality, they have everyone coming back 1 day/week and doing the rest remote still for the foreseeable future.  

One of my good friends just tested positive.  She is fully vaccinated and her case is mild.  She's been very careful.  

 

[mathnerd]

52 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

@mathnerd because we are in the same region. My husband just received a memo that back to office is postponed to January. Guess its a good thing my kids’ fall quarter dual enrollment classes are all online (though they would like to be on campus). My district starts back in person on August 12th.

Mask mandates for offices now in all neighboring counties and ours as well. It started this week - and that’s a good thing 🙂

 

[Arcadia]

1 minute ago, mathnerd said:

Mask mandates for offices now in all neighboring counties and ours as well. It started this week - and that’s a good thing 🙂

 

Was at Great Mall yesterday because kid needed to take some photos for his photography assignment. Some stores have the updated mask mandate posted, some didn’t. As usual, some were walking with their masks on their chins while inside the mall. People were actually masking better at the Livermore outlet even though that is an outdoor mall.  

[historically accurate]

We can't lock down, but I've cut all extraneous trips/errands out of our schedule now.

DH: in person work 3x per week. Takes kids to outdoor pool nightly.

Me: in person work 5x per week - some customer facing & I share an office. Pick up grocery order, run errands for work (2 banks today where I was the only one masked).

DD's: One has 1x per week volunteer position. One has a fully remote job.

No eating out, no haircuts anymore, no in-store shopping, etc. We are doing doctor/dentist/ortho appointments in person. I am taking DD to college (10 hours away) next weekend, so they'll be hotels, restaurant bathroom (but we'll get the food to go). 

[wathe]

2 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Just picking one quote out of the many because I don't want to multi-quote:  in local  hospitals there are signs up saying that care will be refused to violent patients or they will be prosecuted (I assume based on the need for care and the extent of violence - if it's just verbal or physical etc.   Is this not the case everywhere? 

We supposedly have zero tolerance for violence and harassment, and abuse  complete with signs.  It’s bull.

1). You don’t know it’s going to happen until it happens 

2). Violence and harassment and abuse are part some patients’ presentations : intoxication, dementia, psychosis, even personality disorders, and just the stress of being in an overcrowded emergency department.  Nobody is at their best.  We can’t refuse care to people who are medically unstable, and to evaluate medical stability, you have to assess the patient.

zero tolerance policies look good  on paper, but are actually impossible in EDs.

Edited August 5, 2021 by wathe

[Jean in Newcastle]

9 minutes ago, wathe said:

We supposedly have zero tolerance for violence and harassment, and abuse  complete with signs.  It’s bull.

1). You don’t know it’s going to happen until it happens 

2). Violence and harassment and abuse are part some patients’ presentations : intoxication, dementia, psychosis, even personality disorders, and just the stress of being in an overcrowded emergency department.  Nobody is at their best.  We can’t refuse care to people who are medically unstable, and to evaluate medical stability, you have to assess the patient.

zero tolerance policies look good  on paper, but are actually impossible in EDs.

I’m sorry. My dh no longer does direct patient care because it was so stressful. (As unit manager he got it from both patients and staff). 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

2 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

No, that is not everywhere.

Hahahaha we have the signs that people will be prosecuted, but the local DA always refuses to file charges.

the area I work in as a medic has a state psychiatric center and two prisons, one of which is a Supermax.  The stories I could tell….

[Jean in Newcastle]

6 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

Hahahaha we have the signs that people will be prosecuted, but the local DA always refuses to file charges.

the area I work in as a medic has a state psychiatric center and two prisons, one of which is a Supermax.  The stories I could tell….

I guess as a patient who believed the signs, it shows that I really am not the type of person it is addressing. . .   (Especially since I wouldn't be violent to begin with).

[SKL]

28 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I guess as a patient who believed the signs, it shows that I really am not the type of person it is addressing. . .   (Especially since I wouldn't be violent to begin with).

Yeah, I guess maybe they are there for the in-between patients who are both lucid enough to understand the sign and mean enough to need a warning.

Or maybe it's CYA in case a medical professional or hospital gets sued for backing off or calling the cops on a dangerously out-of-control patient.

[Lecka]

Where I am from, my step-mom worked up until about 15 years ago at a hospital that was known for having difficult patients.  There were other hospitals that might kick out a patient, but her hospital would not.  
 

It was a state hospital and not a private hospital, and it somehow took more people without health insurance that other hospitals wouldn’t take, and it had the highest level of care for a lot of things and got more bad accidents or mentally ill patients who would be sent there because they had the highest level of care.

 

It was known for being rough and also for having excellent care, and for being a place someone might transfer to if they had more serious health issues.  
 

My step-mom worked in a lab and not directly with patients, though.

 

She would hear about patients’ relatives getting really upset if things weren’t going well and attacking staff, that seemed like it was a big concern.  Sometimes security guards would walk people to their cars because they had been threatened by a patient’s relatives. 

[Toocrazy!!]

I’m not sure where to post this, but I’m vaccinated and traveled last week to a location in the south where it appeared covid didn’t exist😀 No one was masked. I traveled with a group that was vaccinated but we ate inside 3 nights, and had a 5 hour delay in the airport. I didn’t mask in the restaurants. Wore my happy mask in the airport and on the plane. Tested negative today! 
Very excited as this was planned before delta hit and I was pretty anxious about the whole thing. 
 

[Carrie12345]

14 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I guess as a patient who believed the signs, it shows that I really am not the type of person it is addressing. . .   (Especially since I wouldn't be violent to begin with).

I would think not!  Lol.
The best “targets” for these policies are your giant, but not impaired, jerk faces, for lack of a better word that fits the board rules.  
Patients who are mentally unstable, substance impaired, etc. still need to be treated for their health crisis as best as possible.

My daughter seems to prefer the patients who are incapable of controlling themselves to the people who are just violent, nasty jerks who get physical out of anger. I’ve been trying to get her to tame down her stories for me!
 

None of it is good, of course.
 

[Faith-manor]

Though we are hunkered down now until ds leaves for his college dorms, I do want to get a bunch of veggies and fruits into my freezer for winter so I am going to a large produce stand, entirely outdoors, today. I am wearing a surgical mask under my cloth mask and have picked what the owners describe as a low time to go. Ds and dh are going fishing on Sunday to a rather remote, inland lake that is not likely to have anyone else there and if it does, that person is probably a DNR officer. So it should be just fine in terms of covid exposure.

 

[Katy]

17 hours ago, wathe said:

We supposedly have zero tolerance for violence and harassment, and abuse  complete with signs.  It’s bull.

1). You don’t know it’s going to happen until it happens 

2). Violence and harassment and abuse are part some patients’ presentations : intoxication, dementia, psychosis, even personality disorders, and just the stress of being in an overcrowded emergency department.  Nobody is at their best.  We can’t refuse care to people who are medically unstable, and to evaluate medical stability, you have to assess the patient.

zero tolerance policies look good  on paper, but are actually impossible in EDs.

This.  Plus even if a hospital has a psychiatric unit that isn’t full they don’t take them unless all medical issues are stable first.  I took a job in insurance because I got severely injured by a patient. I recovered but my family didn’t want me to risk going back. Claims departments love nursing experience. 

[Not_a_Number]

I think we might cancel playdates at this point 😕. Numbers went up again… grrr.

[mommyoffive]

COVID-19 Delta variant putting younger children in the ICU, hospital officials say (ksat.com)

[lewelma]

Given what you know, would you guys send an 11 year old who lives in Michigan to school this fall? My sister has a hard decision coming up.

[regentrude]

1 minute ago, lewelma said:

Given what you know, would you guys send an 11 year old who lives in Michigan to school this fall? My sister has a hard decision coming up.

That's such a difficult decision and impossible without knowing the kid.
Can he be homeschooled? Can somebody be home with him to supervise schooling? Is he high risk? Did he suffer mentally from the online schooling and lack of contact during lockdown?
Many things to weigh against each other; I don't think there is a blanket answer.

[lewelma]

6 hours ago, regentrude said:

That's such a difficult decision and impossible without knowing the kid.
Can he be homeschooled? Can somebody be home with him to supervise schooling? Is he high risk? Did he suffer mentally from the online schooling and lack of contact during lockdown?
Many things to weigh against each other; I don't think there is a blanket answer.

Please don't quote: deleted

Edited August 7, 2021 by lewelma

[lewelma]

It seems to me that delta will rip through the schools of unvaccinated kids. Is there any reason to think that this will not be true?  I'm thinking if you are unvaccinated and in school you will get it.

[Faith-manor]

13 minutes ago, lewelma said:

Given what you know, would you guys send an 11 year old who lives in Michigan to school this fall? My sister has a hard decision coming up.

I think that is hard to know. Michigan is a big state so knowing the region might be helpful. Some counties have done very, very well and if the schools are requiring masks would probably be okay. But if we are talking about Macomb County or Genessee, Bay and Saginaw County, Kalamazoo County,....numerous others, then I think it is a bit risky. You can look at the state covid dashboard and look up each county's vaccination rate which might be helpful. Chances are if it is a high rate, the schools will be proactive about precautions and has a staff that is vaxed at a high rate. Then there is my county. 38%. And a bunch of parents are protesting at the school against masks. I wouldn't send a kid to any school district in this county.

[lewelma]

44 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

I think that is hard to know. Michigan is a big state so knowing the region might be helpful.

Please don't quote: deleted.

Edited August 6, 2021 by lewelma

[AmandaVT]

Will masking be required and enforced? I know Delta is a new beast, but masking was very effective in my district last year. 

[kokotg]

9 minutes ago, lewelma said:

It seems to me that delta will rip through the schools of unvaccinated kids. Is there any reason to think that this will not be true?  I'm thinking if you are unvaccinated and in school you will get it.

I think it's hard to say, but that we'll know soon because a lot of schools in the south have already started. How soon does she need to decide? Last year in my area numbers stayed relatively low in schools with mask mandates and other precautions. In schools without them numbers were definitely higher, but I still didn't see situations where whole classrooms were getting sick (it was more small clusters of cases; when there were large outbreaks it was generally associated with indoor sports or with parties outside of school). But all bets are off with Delta, of course. I'll say that I just saw numbers on three metro Atlanta counties from their first week--all are reporting well over 100 cases the first week...but this week isn't the week when we'll see whether it's SPREADING in classrooms. 

[Dmmetler]

My county health department just mandated masking in K-12 schools, child care programs, and preschools. I'm glad-only one of the local districts had done so, and especially in preschools and elementary schools, seems even more necessary this fall than last year. It also means that even if it isn't mandated at my center, few parents or kids are likely to object because the kids are used to it. 

[Dmmetler]

2 minutes ago, kokotg said:

I think it's hard to say, but that we'll know soon because a lot of schools in the south have already started. How soon does she need to decide? Last year in my area numbers stayed relatively low in schools with mask mandates and other precautions. In schools without them numbers were definitely higher, but I still didn't see situations where whole classrooms were getting sick (it was more small clusters of cases; when there were large outbreaks it was generally associated with indoor sports or with parties outside of school). But all bets are off with Delta, of course. I'll say that I just saw numbers on three metro Atlanta counties from their first week--all are reporting well over 100 cases the first week...but this week isn't the week when we'll see whether it's SPREADING in classrooms. 

Marion, AR, which is a pretty small community, had over 400 kids and teachers on quarantine within the first week, due to confirmed cases and no masking. It's bad enough that the governor has actually called for rolling back the state law that banned mask mandates. 

[Terabith]

My nephew's school district started school on Monday.  By Thursday, over 500 folks were in isolation or quarantine.

ETA:  No mask mandates in Jackson, TN.  

Edited August 6, 2021 by Terabith

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

9 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

I would think not!  Lol.
The best “targets” for these policies are your giant, but not impaired, jerk faces, for lack of a better word that fits the board rules.  
Patients who are mentally unstable, substance impaired, etc. still need to be treated for their health crisis as best as possible.

My daughter seems to prefer the patients who are incapable of controlling themselves to the people who are just violent, nasty jerks who get physical out of anger. I’ve been trying to get her to tame down her stories for me!
 

None of it is good, of course.
 

I don’t tell my mom much—and I’m almost 40. She still worries. She was an RN but never worked ER or psych.  My dad has been in EMS since the early 1970s and has a pretty good idea what my life is like.  He was actually on a call with the fire department once(I was on the ambulance crew) where a patient punched me In the face.  He went from EMT mode to Dad mode in 0.25 seconds flat. 

[Faith-manor]

Lewelma, I think it is a bit of a crapshoot. Red zones for the city itself and just around it like a certain university in a little town just west of there. But some of the outlying school districts are much lower numbers. A lot is going to depend on mask requirements and how much delta amps up between now and Labor Day.

[Arcadia]

47 minutes ago, lewelma said:

It seems to me that delta will rip through the schools of unvaccinated kids. Is there any reason to think that this will not be true?  I'm thinking if you are unvaccinated and in school you will get it.

It has not happened in Singapore. The students are all masking. My niece is in primary 4 so I have a vested interest in their data.

[melmichigan]

59 minutes ago, lewelma said:

It seems to me that delta will rip through the schools of unvaccinated kids. Is there any reason to think that this will not be true?  I'm thinking if you are unvaccinated and in school you will get it.

Our county is recommending masking of the kids in school, so none of the school are requiring masks at this point in time.  Even the CC has announced they have no covid precautions in place.  I don't see it going well if last year is any indication, and they were all masked then.  I was hoping it would change before school started, but the pushback is so strong I'm not sure it will happen.

Edited August 6, 2021 by melmichigan

[cabercro]

Here in NC there is a provision in the guidelines for schools that if someone tests positive, if they masked correctly and consistently and the other kids did too, the exposed kids do not have to  quarantine. That fact alone - even if you think masks don’t work - should be enough to make masking a no brainer. Well… one would think anyway… 🙄

[Wheres Toto]

NJ just reinstated the mask mandates for all K-12 schools.   It means we are getting another surge of people joining the local homeschool groups but I'm very glad it was announced so early (we don't start until after Labor Day).  I'm reinstituting masks for my remaining summer camps (next week, then a week off and the final camp), in addition to requiring them in September.  Most of my students registered when we had one before and I've had around 50% masking for my last two camps when we didn't have one.  

[Carrie12345]

1 hour ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I don’t tell my mom much—and I’m almost 40. She still worries. She was an RN but never worked ER or psych.  My dad has been in EMS since the early 1970s and has a pretty good idea what my life is like.  He was actually on a call with the fire department once(I was on the ambulance crew) where a patient punched me In the face.  He went from EMT mode to Dad mode in 0.25 seconds flat. 

OMG, I can only imagine! Thank goodness dh and dd don’t usually cover the same area. (Though now I’m going to think about this anytime she takes a shift in a mutual aid region, lol.)

DD’s first real patient *as a student* was a combative naked guy on heroin.  Now she’s moving from BLS to ALS at her main job and I don’t want to think about it.   A little more on topic, at least that means fewer COVID transports!

[Tree Frog]

1 hour ago, cabercro said:

Here in NC there is a provision in the guidelines for schools that if someone tests positive, if they masked correctly and consistently and the other kids did too, the exposed kids do not have to  quarantine. That fact alone - even if you think masks don’t work - should be enough to make masking a no brainer. Well… one would think anyway… 🙄

In TX, schools are not allowed to require masks. If a student is positive, they need to stay home. Per the TEA guidelines, close contacts may choose to stay home (read: are not required to stay home) and anyone who has been vaccinated isn't considered a close contact.

https://tea.texas.gov/sites/default/files/covid/SY-20-21-Public-Health-Guidance.pdf

 

[Not_a_Number]

7 minutes ago, wilrunner said:

In TX, schools are not allowed to require masks. If a student is positive, they need to stay home. Per the TEA guidelines, close contacts may choose to stay home (read: are not required to stay home) and anyone who has been vaccinated isn't considered a close contact.

https://tea.texas.gov/sites/default/files/covid/SY-20-21-Public-Health-Guidance.pdf

 

Yeah, our Austin friends are NOT happy 😕 . 

 

[Faith-manor]

35 minutes ago, wilrunner said:

In TX, schools are not allowed to require masks. If a student is positive, they need to stay home. Per the TEA guidelines, close contacts may choose to stay home (read: are not required to stay home) and anyone who has been vaccinated isn't considered a close contact.

https://tea.texas.gov/sites/default/files/covid/SY-20-21-Public-Health-Guidance.pdf

 

I just. I don't have words. Wow!