CDC removing mask mandate what will you do with dc under 12

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

49 minutes ago, Terabith said:

A little girl I taught in preschool, who is now 8, caught covid and had minor symptoms but afterwards lost the ability to walk.  That seems like a pretty major thing.  

This happens to kids with other viruses too though. I’m not saying that it doesn’t happen more often with covid (I haven’t looked in to it so I don’t know what the incidence rate is), but it’s also not unique to covid. The daughter of a friend of mine experienced this after getting a common cold several years ago. She was treated and eventually regained her ability to walk but will regress sometimes when she catches other minor childhood illnesses. 

[Not_a_Number]

We're staying outside and masking. And I am crossing my fingers and toes that everyone else at playgrounds in NYC follows suit, because I don't want to be the only oddball in a mask 😕 . 

I don't feel like I have a good enough understanding of long COVID in kids or of the chances of MIS-C to feel like we ought to let the kids catch it. Plus, I'd worry about older folks not being fully protected by vaccines. 

By the way, I'm very surprised people are saying masks don't protect you. That messaging was mostly for cloth masks (and even those probably protect one somewhat.) But if you're wearing a mask with a filter, it definitely protects you as well as everyone else around it. Especially if you're wearing it correctly. 

Also, this announcement fills me with foreboding. I haven't been all that happy with the CDC during this pandemic. 

 

[Spy Car]

17 minutes ago, 2ndGenHomeschooler said:

This happens to kids with other viruses too though. I’m not saying that it doesn’t happen more often with covid (I haven’t looked in to it so I don’t know what the incidence rate is), but it’s also not unique to covid. The daughter of a friend of mine experienced this after getting a common cold several years ago. She was treated and eventually regained her ability to walk but will regress sometimes when she catches other minor childhood illnesses. 

Half of children that have contracted Covid have issues with ongoing illness. Half.

This is nothing remotely like the common cold.

Bill

 

 

 

Edited May 15, 2021 by Spy Car

[mathnerd]

4 hours ago, SKL said:

Why don't we have to mask for any other illness?  Why don't we have to take any precautions for any other illness we're vaccinated for?

 

We need to mask during this pandemic for a few valid and different reasons. This has not been communicated clearly due to the CDC trying to quell panic and due to political reasons.

I am not in the medical field, so anyone reading this can correct me if I am wrong.

I can think of the following reasons to mask:

- This is a far more contagious illness than any other illness currently doing the rounds.

- It is more contagious than others because it is a respiratory illness that you can get from breathing the air around you if you are anywhere near an infected person (for e.g. you might not catch leprosy from an infected person if you practiced normal hygiene and did not touch mucus from infected person and used hand sanitizer. You won't catch leprosy by sitting on a bus next to them, eating a meal with them etc.)

- CV-19 is a new virus to the human immune system, and new viruses come under severe evolutionary pressures and mutate constantly in order to survive inside human bodies. If it finds the environment hostile to its survival, it will mutate so that it has a better chance for survival inside the host. With enough mutations the virus itself changes, this change impacts people. We need constant scientific investigation into whether the vaccines still work with the changed virus and if the current Covid tests can still identify the active virus. We will need periodic booster shots to keep up with the current variant of the virus as it evolves and becomes a new Variant or a new Strain. This is why we need to mask in crowded places even if we are vaccinated. It is randomly mutating inside someone's body all the time and no one can predict if the mutated virus is less harmful or if your antibodies work against it.

So, we have to still practice all the Covid hygiene as a society, even after vaccination, so that the virus never gets a chance to enter our bodies, mutate into a deadlier strain and then spread to our neighbors and gets loose into society. India is an example of this phenomenon happening right now: they have a deadly Variant that carries the characteristic of a mutation that is very contagious and a mutation that is very resistant to antibodies (double mutation). 

When can masking end? When CV-19 virus stabilizes and stops mutating frequently. This is how all pandemics eventually die out. When this happens, the vaccines can be given out once a year (like the flu vaccines that we have now).

Edited May 15, 2021 by mathnerd
grammar!

[Not_a_Number]

6 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Half of children that have contracted Covid have issues with ongoing illness. Half.

This is nothing remotely like the common cold.

Bill

From my informal data gathering... I would guess that's not true. I've seen a really wide range of estimates. I know which study you're citing, but I think that's the 4-week number and it included fairly mild ongoing issues. 

Honestly, at this point, I wouldn't be surprised if anywhere from 0.1% to 20% of kids who've had COVID have issues with ongoing issues. Our data is terrible. Very few kids are tested. Very few kids are followed up. 

[Spy Car]

1 minute ago, happysmileylady said:

As I have 3 kids who had Covid with no ongoing issues......please source this for.............HALF..............

I already did.

Bill

[Lucy the Valiant]

10 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Half of children that have contracted Covid have issues with ongoing illness. Half.

This is nothing remotely like the common cold.

Bill

 

 

 

From the small Italian study or worldwide? We know many many kids who have recovered 100% from covid, and it's nowhere near 1/2 in our area.

Edited May 15, 2021 by Lucy the Valiant

[kokotg]

3 hours ago, Penelope said:

 

But there are so many epidemiological studies, along with worldwide experiences, to back it up. 
 

Re: schools: this is far from settled science: https://www.chalkbeat.org/2021/5/10/22429536/study-covid-spread-cases-schools-transmission-texas

Quote

The results, researchers said, were striking. Over several weeks, school opening triggered a large jump in COVID cases and deaths, researchers said. Their best estimate is that a remarkable 45% of cases and nearly two thirds of deaths in Texas in nine weeks following reopening were the result of the direct and indirect effects of school reopening.

My prediction about the take from researchers of the future: "duh"

I think schools can open relatively safely with a lot of precautions even in areas with relatively high transmission rates--but it's clear that many, many, MANY schools in the US have not been taking those precautions. And absolutely everywhere I've seen that has kept track of both student and teacher incidence rates has shown that the rates for teachers is higher than for the general population in an area even when student rates are not. I've kept track of incidence rates in school districts near me without mask mandates and they are regularly 8-10 TIMES as high as the general population for teachers and 2-3 times as high for students. 

[Spryte]

Not that it’s real data, but of the 11 kids here that I know who had Covid, only one is really struggling long term (IIRC, 9 months out). He has definite long haul Covid, and has developed depression, too.  It’s pretty awful.  The other ten seem fine, and though I could be missing some info I don’t think half are still having symptoms now.  A few were sick for a good 6-8 weeks, but recovered.  A few were asymptomatic.  The others were somewhere in between.

[Spy Car]

4 minutes ago, Lucy the Valiant said:

From the small Italian study or worldwide? We know many many kids who have recovered 100% from covid, and it's nowhere near 1/2 in our area.

The first Long Covid showed: half of children aged between 6 and 16 years old who contract the virus have at least one symptom lasting more than 120 days, with 42.6 per cent impaired by these symptoms during daily activities.

Let's hope that the severity is less. But the potential for some percentage of children developing Long Covid is chilling, particularly if (like ME/CFS, that is strongly resembles) it turns out to be a lifelong illness.

Children are not immune to risks.

Bill

 

[Matryoshka]

6 hours ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

They were most likely not wearing mask already anyway. Costco is the only store I've seen absolutely refuse service to those without a mask.

Here everyone wears a mask or they don't get in. It's universal. So this change would definitely be a big change and allow anti-vaxxers/maskers to just mingle their possibly germy selves about with impunity. 

[HeartString]

1 hour ago, Spy Car said:

However, it is becoming increasingly apparent that a large number of children with symptomatic and asymptomatic covid-19 are experiencing long-term effects, many months after the initial infection.

Do you have a different study for that?  I've been looking for long COVID data on kids, but this study you linked to was for over 18 only.  "Inclusion criteria: Age >=18 yrs". 

[Lucy the Valiant]

5 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

The first Long Covid showed: half of children aged between 6 and 16 years old who contract the virus have at least one symptom lasting more than 120 days, with 42.6 per cent impaired by these symptoms during daily activities.

Let's hope that the severity is less. But the potential for some percentage of children developing Long Covid is chilling, particularly if (like ME/CFS, that is strongly resembles) it turns out to be a lifelong illness.

Children are not immune to risks.

Bill

 

Of course they're not, although some are immune to covid without ever testing positive.  (This is 1 family, but there are lots of VERY interesting related reports.)

The vaccine carries risks, too, many of which are simply not known due to lack of time. Children are a class unto themselves precisely because of the time factor. (Your study looked at 129 juveniles in Italy, correct? Those numbers are most definitely not consistent in the USA.)

40-50% of CDC staff is currently refusing the vaccine (according to Dr. Fauci today), and those are adults in the scientific community. The facts are simply not all in yet.

[kokotg]

10 minutes ago, Lucy the Valiant said:

 

40-50% of CDC staff is currently refusing the vaccine (according to Dr. Fauci today), and those are adults in the scientific community. The facts are simply not all in yet.

That's not what that says at all. He said he doesn't know, but that he would guess that it's around 60%....which is almost exactly the same as the percent fully vaccinated in the US as a whole. He doesn't say anything at all about anyone "refusing" the vaccine (and, incidentally, Dr. Fauci doesn't work at the CDC). Do you have any evidence of that? ETA: oops, I meant that it's 20% HIGHER than the percent fully vaccinated in the US as a whole (which includes the elderly who were generally eligible earlier than people who are still working)

Edited May 15, 2021 by kokotg

[Sk8ermaiden]

Yes, the schools where I am have been huge hotspots and no one denies it. It's just that no one cares. 😕

I have heard "Why vax if you still have to wear a mask?" One Zillion times and every last time it was said by someone who will neither vax nor mask. 

I know quite a few people who have had confirmed covid twice - and moderate to bad cases at that. It doesn't seem like a rarity. 

[Spy Car]

3 minutes ago, HeartString said:

Do you have a different study for that?  I've been looking for long COVID data on kids, but this study you linked to was for over 18 only.  "Inclusion criteria: Age >=18 yrs". 

The paper I linked referenced the first Italian study and they followed children:

These interim results are based on periodic assessments of 129 children in Italy who were diagnosed with covid-19 between March and November 2020 at the Gemelli University Hospital in Rome (medRxiv, doi.org/fv9t).

Looking at other cohorts suggests smaller percentages, but no data supports the idea that children are not at serious risk from contacting Covid just because their death rate is relatively low.

Again, if Long Covid is the same thing (or very similar to) ME/CFS, then children with LC potentially face a lifetime of devastating chronic illness that currently has no cure.

Not anything for a society to take lightly IMO.

Bill

 

 

 

[Sk8ermaiden]

12 minutes ago, Lucy the Valiant said:

 

40-50% of CDC staff is currently refusing the vaccine (according to Dr. Fauci today), and those are adults in the scientific community. The facts are simply not all in yet.

There's an good comment on that video, "60% is still almost twice the rate as general American population. If this video is supposed to suggest that employees of the CDC are more skeptical of the vaccines that general population, it fails."

And as mentioned above - he doesn't even work the CDC.

[Lucy the Valiant]

16 minutes ago, kokotg said:

That's not what that says at all. He said he doesn't know, but that he would guess that it's around 60%....which is almost exactly the same as the percent fully vaccinated in the US as a whole. He doesn't say anything at all about anyone "refusing" the vaccine (and, incidentally, Dr. Fauci doesn't work at the CDC). Do you have any evidence of that?

Correct, Fauci was speaking for NIH, Marks for FDA, and Walensky for CDC. If they've all been offered the vaccine, and only 50-60% have taken it, that's . . . not 100%. 

Why haven't they taken it, I wonder? 

Editing to add - I'm generally pro-vaccine. I have no reason to distrust the covid vaccines. I'm honestly looking for more info here; it seems fair to at least ask the questions about vaccines that are still experimental. 

Edited May 15, 2021 by Lucy the Valiant

[kokotg]

Just now, Lucy the Valiant said:

Correct, Fauci was speaking for NIH, Marks for FDA, and Walensky for CDC. If they've all been offered the vaccine, and only 50-60% have taken it, that's . . . not 100%. 

 

So you're arguing that we should all be skeptical of the vaccine because, according to Dr. Fauci's admittedly imprecise estimate, NIH workers are choosing to be vaccinated at a significantly higher rate than the general population? 

[Sk8ermaiden]

And if it was the last person who represented the CDC - she said she had no idea what percentage of her employees have had the vaccine, as they don't report it to their employer....

[Lucy the Valiant]

7 minutes ago, kokotg said:

So you're arguing that we should all be skeptical of the vaccine because, according to Dr. Fauci's admittedly imprecise estimate, NIH workers are choosing to be vaccinated at a significantly higher rate than the general population? 

No, not at all. I live in an area with MUCH higher vaccination rates than the rest of the country. I'm just surprised that it's not closer to 100% among scientists at the national agencies. I do have questions about some of the applications of the vaccine, but - I'm also discouraged by trying to ask them, because I would rather just be quiet and go along than argue. I quickly acknowledge that I am not a scientist, and have to work through the medical study reports very slowly. 

I have "medically interesting" children, for whom the general data does not always apply, so I'm curious about the WHY and the HOW of the vaccines & the immune system in general. I have learned a lot by reading, but have a long way to go.

 

[kokotg]

3 minutes ago, Lucy the Valiant said:

No, not at all. I live in an area with MUCH higher vaccination rates than the rest of the country. I'm just surprised that it's not closer to 100% among scientists at the national agencies. I do have questions about some of the applications of the vaccine, but - I'm also discouraged by trying to ask them, because I would rather just be quiet and go along than argue. I quickly acknowledge that I am not a scientist, and have to work through the medical study reports very slowly. 

 

 

I think there are a lot of possible reasons (it's really only been a couple of weeks since availability has opened up so much, particularly in urban areas)...but I think the fact that people who work in public health/epidemiology are MORE likely to have been vaccinated than the population as a whole should be reassuring. 

[kokotg]

(Also, sorry I was snarky. I try not to be snarky. Most of the time)

[AbcdeDooDah]

24 minutes ago, kokotg said:

So you're arguing that we should all be skeptical of the vaccine because, according to Dr. Fauci's admittedly imprecise estimate, NIH workers are choosing to be vaccinated at a significantly higher rate than the general population? 

They could all be older and got theirs first. So many people are still waiting for their appointments so I don't find it unusual. 

I would expect the number to be higher, IMO, but maybe some haven't been eligible yet. If the desired 70-80% end up vaxxed then the NIH workers will be at a lower rate than the general population. 

We can't really guess at anything at this point.

[AbcdeDooDah]

Totally anecdotal but my dh and just got back from Target. I saw no maskless people. My dh is fully vaccinated and he still wore his. 

[SoCal_Bear]

Are other areas tracking vaccination rates by zip code? I was feeling good about it when I checked when 16 and older were permitted that my zip code was 87% partly or fully vax'd. Less so now that appears to be 64%. Still great, but when I go to other zip codes you see that number vary signficantly. It's starting to influence where my family to be out and about.

https://dig.abclocal.go.com/kabc/ca-vaccine-tracker/SoCal_vax_zip_map.html

 

[*Jessica*]

Like any other government agency, the NIH has positions for IT, administration, custodial staff, etc that have no background in science and medicine.  I would bet that if you could look at the breakdown of scientists/doctors vs. support staff you would see a much higher percentage than 60% of the former.

[Moonhawk]

I want to move to wherever you all are living where people just mask. Throughout the entire pandemic, I have never been into a regular-sized store without seeing at least 1 person without a mask. Usually more, not just 1 or 2, but 5 or 6 and one time I counted 12.  I have seen at least 4 people aggressively arguing with an employee about wearing masks. I have been called a sheep in the store for wearing a mask. At Safeway and Ace in particular the employees/managers were trying to enforce it and refused to check people out if they weren't wearing masks but that doesn't stop people from walking the aisles without masks.

Our [red, rural] county's vaccine rate is at 42.1%. (Full disclosure, Our Infection rate is currently .72%, yay for us!) The main vaccine site in my area has had drive-thru no appointment necessary for at least the last 3 weeks and when I pass there is no line at all, only a couple cars in the post-shot waiting area. Vaccination was open to everything 16+ the last week of March (maybe the week before?). So while there are some that can't get it for reasons like transportation, etc., most likely everyone who wants it has. Other than maybe getting an ice cream + vax truck combo and trawling the neighborhoods, I don't think many outreach things will push that number significantly. 

So, I'm happy that some people think that with the CDC rec about vaccinated people will not change overall masking behavior of the unvaccinated. I want to move to where you are. I really have no expectation of that here and so will continue to mask to a) make others more comfortable b.) stop any spread I could still contribute to, and c) encourage others who actually should mask that it is still a thing. 

Back to the original question: My kids (all 12 and under) will still remain mostly at home and not leave without masks.

[SoCal_Bear]

This was a really fascinating poll.

https://news.yahoo.com/poll-vaccinated-americans-are-ready-to-drop-their-masks-after-cdc-shift-but-theyre-not-ready-to-socialize-with-the-unvaccinated-203811328.html

 

[KungFuPanda]

2 hours ago, Lucy the Valiant said:

Correct, Fauci was speaking for NIH, Marks for FDA, and Walensky for CDC. If they've all been offered the vaccine, and only 50-60% have taken it, that's . . . not 100%. 

Why haven't they taken it, I wonder? 

Editing to add - I'm generally pro-vaccine. I have no reason to distrust the covid vaccines. I'm honestly looking for more info here; it seems fair to at least ask the questions about vaccines that are still experimental. 

 

1 hour ago, Lucy the Valiant said:

No, not at all. I live in an area with MUCH higher vaccination rates than the rest of the country. I'm just surprised that it's not closer to 100% among scientists at the national agencies. I do have questions about some of the applications of the vaccine, but - I'm also discouraged by trying to ask them, because I would rather just be quiet and go along than argue. I quickly acknowledge that I am not a scientist, and have to work through the medical study reports very slowly. 

I have "medically interesting" children, for whom the general data does not always apply, so I'm curious about the WHY and the HOW of the vaccines & the immune system in general. I have learned a lot by reading, but have a long way to go.

 

Most of the NIH employees aren't scientists.  They are support staff.  The lab techs, janitors, cafeteria workers, and security personnel outnumber the scientists by a lot.  I'm not sure we HAVE the numbers for just the scientists.  100 percent of the NIH scientists I know have been vaccinated, but I only know two. 😁

My county lifts its mask ban tomorrow.  Vaccinated people are free to forgo masks EXCEPT on public transportation, schools, daycares, and medical facilities.  We now have 75% of our 16 and up population with at least their first dose. and the Mass Vax centers are walk up now.  They started vaccinating 12 and up yesterday. Even though my household is completely vaccinated, I'm STILL going to be cautious for a few weeks to see if lifting the mask ban changes our positivity rate,  We've been too careful for too long to blow it now.

It's going to be really really weird to see faces in stores.  Everyone is going to look and feel naked. 😂

 

ETA:  I don't know all of the jobs at the NIH and I'm not looking it up  . . . I'm really guessing based upon how most government agencies around here are run.  

Edited May 15, 2021 by KungFuPanda

[KSera]

3 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

As I have 3 kids who had Covid with no ongoing issues......please source this for.............HALF..............

While I agree that I haven’t seen anything else that suggests it’s as high as half (though I have seen 1/3 in another study), I don’t know what relevance your three kids not having ongoing issues would have to whether or not half was an accurate number. You could have ten kids who had Covid and none of them have any issues and it wouldn’t have any bearing on what the true proportion of kids with long Covid is. One family does not a study make. 

1 hour ago, calbear said:

Are other areas tracking vaccination rates by zip code? I was feeling good about it when I checked when 16 and older were permitted that my zip code was 87% partly or fully vax'd. Less so now that appears to be 64%. Still great, but when I go to other zip codes you see that number vary signficantly. It's starting to influence where my family to be out and about.

https://dig.abclocal.go.com/kabc/ca-vaccine-tracker/SoCal_vax_zip_map.html

 

I’ve been looking at ours as well, and I agree it’s going to impact where I shop and such. My zip code is not nearly as well vaxed as the one where I tend to shop, and I will surely be doing my shopping there (I don’t have a regular grocery store in my zip code, so it’s not like I’m being rude by doing this—this is where I mostly shopped prepandemic as well). I have another store available the other direction, toward the less vaccinated area, and that’s not the one we will go to. 

Edited May 15, 2021 by KSera

[Jean in Newcastle]

3 hours ago, calbear said:

Are other areas tracking vaccination rates by zip code? I was feeling good about it when I checked when 16 and older were permitted that my zip code was 87% partly or fully vax'd. Less so now that appears to be 64%. Still great, but when I go to other zip codes you see that number vary signficantly. It's starting to influence where my family to be out and about.

https://dig.abclocal.go.com/kabc/ca-vaccine-tracker/SoCal_vax_zip_map.html

 

Yes.  I looked at local zip codes.  That's how I could see that zip codes associated with higher socioeconomic levels had higher percentages of vaccinated people.  I believe that the local health department is trying to improve access to vaccinations in lower socioeconomic areas. 

[kristin0713]

8 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

Wouldn't getting the vaccine go a long way towards alleviating your daughter's fears?  It seems like she could see some physical and psychological benefits that outweigh the risks.

I definitely want the kids vaccinated. DH is afraid of side effects and I’m working on him.  The thing with my DD is that she’s not really afraid of covid. But she is afraid of anyone touching her things or going in her room because what if they didn’t wash their hands after going to the bathroom. OCD is a tricky beast. If we say we are wearing masks even when we don’t have to, it could morph into “I need to always wear a mask now because all these people are breathing everywhere and everything is contaminated.”  Even my non-OCD kid recently said he likes masks because he hasn’t been sick all year.  I mean, we will follow the rules. I’m sure NJ will be the last to lift the mandate anyway. But I’ve got balance the mental health component and I think the best way for our family is to keep it as black and white as possible and just follow the rules. She wouldn’t be able to handle having to decide herself because it would take her down a rabbit trail of what if, what if, what if???  It’s debilitating. 

[Guest]

20 hours ago, Condessa said:

My guess is that the CDC is realizing that there is a large contingent of low-risk people who are not aggressively anti-vax, but can’t be bothered to go get the vaccine without seeing any personal benefit.  (I personally know several young, healthy adults who have this attitude).  They aren’t in much danger personally, especially with rates dropping as others get vaccinated, they have heard stories about vaccine reactions that have left them a little wary, and they are saying, “If it makes basically no difference to what I can and can’t do in my life, why bother?”  I think that probably the CDC is hoping folks like that will see a reason to go get the shot if they begin to remove recommendations that everyone act the same as if they were still unprotected regardless of their individual vaccine status.

IMO, this is almost entirely the reasoning. 

From the beginning of vaccine availability, it was my belief that the protocols/mandates remaining in place, even when people were vaccinated was 90% because social behavior is well understood and maybe 10% because it couldn’t be said for certain that vaxxed people did not transmit. 

Personally, I feel the timing is ideal, because those who really wanted the vax have largely all gotten it, along with many people who were on the fence but were persuaded to by others (my boss is one of these) and, IMO, it’s time to “reward” those of us who have gotten vaxed. I admit I might feel differently, though, if I lived in a place where mask compliance and/or vaccine uptake had been low all along. Our Governor is lifting most restrictions this weekend. I think the timing is great. 

[Meriwether]

12 hours ago, Spy Car said:

Only from cretans online who won't mask or vaccine come hell or high water. 

Society needs protection from such people. Desperately.

Forging a vaccine card or evading masking requirements if unvaccinated should be a serious felony.

Bill

 

Reading your posts while reading The Gulag Archipelago has been...interesting.

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Spy Car said:

Only from cretans online who won't mask or vaccine come hell or high water. 

Society needs protection from such people. Desperately.

Forging a vaccine card or evading masking requirements if unvaccinated should be a serious felony.

Bill

 

A little OT, but I fully expect newly developed smartphones to have a space for storing vaccine cards, if they don’t already. Like built into the health data app. 

[whitestavern]

8 hours ago, HeartString said:

Do you have a different study for that?  I've been looking for long COVID data on kids, but this study you linked to was for over 18 only.  "Inclusion criteria: Age >=18 yrs". 

I have been reading articles this morning to try and find one that supports BIll's "half" claim. So far I've found none with any numbers, just lots of "it's rare" statements. 

[Not_a_Number]

36 minutes ago, whitestavern said:

I have been reading articles this morning to try and find one that supports BIll's "half" claim. So far I've found none with any numbers, just lots of "it's rare" statements. 

Those numbers aren't right. It's not even half for adults. 

My personal current estimate for adults is in the single percent, but I wouldn't be able to tell you if it's closer to 1% or 10%. Probably somewhere in the middle. 

I don't have a good estimate for kids. 

[pinball]

13 hours ago, Spy Car said:

Only from cretans online who won't mask or vaccine come hell or high water. 

Society needs protection from such people. Desperately.

Forging a vaccine card or evading masking requirements if unvaccinated should be a serious felony.

Bill

 

“Cretans”

why are you targeting the Greeks???

hahaha

yeah, yeah, yeah...I’m joking about someone calling people “cretans” while spelling cretins wrong.

so lecture me about it...and yes, I’ve never spelled anything wrong, ever. And I’ve never made any typos or grammatical or punctuation or usage errors ever, either.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

IMO, this is almost entirely the reasoning. 

From the beginning of vaccine availability, it was my belief that the protocols/mandates remaining in place, even when people were vaccinated was 90% because social behavior is well understood and maybe 10% because it couldn’t be said for certain that vaxxed people did not transmit. 

Personally, I feel the timing is ideal, because those who really wanted the vax have largely all gotten it, along with many people who were on the fence but were persuaded to by others (my boss is one of these) and, IMO, it’s time to “reward” those of us who have gotten vaxed. I admit I might feel differently, though, if I lived in a place where mask compliance and/or vaccine uptake had been low all along. Our Governor is lifting most restrictions this weekend. I think the timing is great. 

I think people who aren’t surrounded by vaccine hesitant neighbors, family and friends have a hard time seeing the extent of the problem.

We’ve always had a mask mandate.  People are really good about mask compliance, but there’s a lot of disgruntled people who wore a mask and still caught covid. Most of the spread here was either nursing homes, essential workplaces or people gathering in private homes, not restaurants and Walmart’s.  There is also the fact that here, many small businesses suffered greatly from Covid. So there is a lot of the “none of it mattered” attitude.  Add into that mindset that they’re looking at their fully vaccinated friends and family who still have to follow the same restrictions, and they just don’t think the benefit outweighs the risk to getting vaccinated.  The side effects are an issue that really needs to be discussed and protections put in place for people who need to take a sick day or two.  Most of the vaccine hesitant people I personally know have either already had Covid or don’t fall into high risk categories. 
They truly are not concerned about catching Covid and have not been worried about it all along. 

I fully agree the CDC is lifting restrictions on vaccinated people is to spur the vaccine hesitant to get off the fence.  We’ve had open vaccines for about a month, and demand is way down, despite only running about 40% vaccinated.  Maybe this will get some more people off the fence, but I also think as society we have to accept there is a significant number of people who will not get vaccinated for Covid, no matter what.   I also don’t think a permanent mask mandate is really possible, either.  I personally don’t think cloth masks protect the wearers much at all, even if it keeps in their own germs.  I don’t see anyone wearing filtered masks or N95s at all now, even in the hospital(unless working with a suspected or diagnosed Covid patient).  Even the person who did my Covid test pre surgery last month only wore a surgical mask.  So I do think there’s legitimate discussion to be had about who exactly cloth masks protect.

Edited May 15, 2021 by Mrs Tiggywinkle

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

Maybe this will get some more people off the fence, but I also think as society we have to accept there is a significant number of people who will not get vaccinated for Covid, no matter what.

I'm worried about what that looks like, though, when it's so highly geographically mediated. I feel like this will be even worse for the urban/rural divide. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'm worried about what that looks like, though, when it's so highly geographically mediated. I feel like this will be even worse for the urban/rural divide. 

Sadly I think you’re right. It’s probably worth considering the different risks though. I walked seven blocks to the coffee shop this morning and passed exactly no one on the way.  There’s very few apartment buildings around me and people aren’t sharing elevators.  It’s always been fairly easy to distance at restaurants and Walmart because it’s just not crowded to begin with.  Playgrounds are the same. It is much easier for me in my rural town to not be exposed to Covid than it would be if I was still living in a large city.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

Sadly I think you’re right. It’s probably worth considering the different risks though. I walked seven blocks to the coffee shop this morning and passed exactly no one on the way.  There’s very few apartment buildings around me and people aren’t sharing elevators.  It’s always been fairly easy to distance at restaurants and Walmart because it’s just not crowded to begin with.  Playgrounds are the same. It is much easier for me in my rural town to not be exposed to Covid than it would be if I was still living in a large city.

I don't know that this is right. I don't think most exposures come from dense urban environments, or places like South Dakota wouldn't have had major spikes. 

I'd love to see if there's a correlation between density and COVID rates (I'd also like to see if it holds up if one leaves out the Northeast, which had the dubious honor of being hit first.) I'd be super curious what one gets... if anyone wants to run it, I'd love to see. 

[Kanin]

7 hours ago, Moonhawk said:

I want to move to wherever you all are living where people just mask. Throughout the entire pandemic, I have never been into a regular-sized store without seeing at least 1 person without a mask. Usually more, not just 1 or 2, but 5 or 6 and one time I counted 12.  I have seen at least 4 people aggressively arguing with an employee about wearing masks. I have been called a sheep in the store for wearing a mask. At Safeway and Ace in particular the employees/managers were trying to enforce it and refused to check people out if they weren't wearing masks but that doesn't stop people from walking the aisles without masks.

I'm sorry, this is awful! If I lived where people didn't mask, I'd 100% move. 

[Bambam]

I'm in Texas - in a section that has lower vaccinated percentages (compared to the rest of the state).  Stopped in a Bucee's yesterday (those who have been in TX know Bucee's - HUGE convenience type store with a gas station - maybe 80-100+ pumps, bathrooms the size of people's houses, etc) - the employees were all masked. Maybe 10% of the others in the store were masked - and most of those were elderly folks.  I ran into someone I know who was unmasked, and I can almost guarantee she has not vaccinated and is heavily influenced by the rabid anti-vaxxers (many of whom are anti-traditional medicine too) and freedom first folks in this area.  I haven't been in any local stores yet, so I don't know what the regular stores will be like. 

Edited May 15, 2021 by Bambam

[Carrie12345]

8 minutes ago, Kanin said:

I'm sorry, this is awful! If I lived where people didn't mask, I'd 100% move. 

You must be pretty wealthy to be able to entertain that idea.

[Kanin]

3 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

You must be pretty wealthy to be able to entertain that idea.

Ha! I wish. I guess I should have said, I'd 100% do everything in my power to move. 

[Faith-manor]

9 hours ago, Sk8ermaiden said:

Yes, the schools where I am have been huge hotspots and no one denies it. It's just that no one cares. 😕

I have heard "Why vax if you still have to wear a mask?" One Zillion times and every last time it was said by someone who will neither vax nor mask. 

I know quite a few people who have had confirmed covid twice - and moderate to bad cases at that. It doesn't seem like a rarity. 

This has been my experience. The church two blocks away is a zero mask situation, and actually just began purging members who have not returned from the pandemic because the church body is not masking, social distancing, or taking any other protocols. They have also actively preached against the vaccine, and have been a source of more than one major covid outbreak in our county with three people dead and eleven long covid sufferers seven of whom appear to have extensive damage. Of those long covid haulers, one is nine years old, and one is 22. The 22 has dropped out of college, and though his case was last September, he is still too weak to walk without a cane and someone staying close because he is a fall risk. But they keep NOT masking keep vilifying people for not attending church, and keep preaching that the vaccine is the "mark of the beast".

They claim the vaccine is " the mark of the beast". So no mask, no vaccine.

 

Edited May 15, 2021 by Faith-manor

[Carrie12345]

 

4 minutes ago, Kanin said:

Ha! I wish. I guess I should have said, I'd 100% do everything in my power to move. 

With a comfortable income, it’s still going to wind up taking me over a year from the decision to move to actually get into a house.  There doesn’t seem to be a single place in the US right now where a quick and affordable move is possible without gobs of cash to overpay and bypass overwhelmed inspections, appraisals, and mortgage processing.  100% isn’t likely to cut it for the vast majority of people.

[historically accurate]

So, I was curious this morning, and I went and looked at vaccination rates for my county. Ugh. 

Barely 30% fully vaccinated although they don't report 1st shot rates. Then, I went looking for case numbers over the last 9 months to see how big that contigent is - it's 11%. Even assuming that cases are an undercount, we're probably less than 50% immune in my county. And our positivity rate is running slightly over 5% to slightly less than 9% for the month of May. 

Yep, I'm keeping my mask, especially since I work in a public library - I'm in a room off to the side, but people often wander over to my area. My kids are old enough now to be vaxxed, but immunity won't be for another 6ish weeks - last first shot today! And my uncle is a super-high-risk transplant recipient, which is a group the vaccination may not work well for, so masking it is. 

Masking is pretty high here as we have a statewide mandate - usually I see 1 or 2 without masks, but the rule is changing now that vaxxed can go unmasked. Fortunately, one of the librarians can give the stink eye like no one's business if you're unmasked in the library, so I rarely see unmasked people there. However, I fully expect that I will see many unmasked now when I'm out and about. Yesterday, at CVS getting my 14 yo vaccinated there were two people unmasked in the half hour we were there. One seemed to have some issues as he was chewing on his shirt for the majority of the time in line. The other guy was holding his in his hand because he came in with it on, passed the sales clerk close to the door, and then took it off. He did put it back on at the counter to talk to the pharmacy tech.