CDC removing mask mandate what will you do with dc under 12

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

This has been my experience. The church two blocks away is a zero mask situation, and actually just began purging members who have not returned from the pandemic because the church body is not masking, social distancing, or taking any other protocols. They have also actively preached against the vaccine, and have been a source of more than one major covid outbreak in our county with three people dead and eleven long covid sufferers seven of whom appear to have extensive damage. Of those long covid haulers, one is nine years old, and one is 22. The 22 has dropped out of college, and though his case was last September, he is still too weak to walk without a cane and someone staying close because he is a fall risk. But they keep NOT making keep vilifying people for not attending church, and keep preaching that the vaccine is the "mark of the beast".

Stories of 9-year-old long haulers make me highly nervous, since DD8 will be 9 this summer 😞 . Do you know what the symptoms are?

[HeartString]

3 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

 

They claim the vaccine is " the mark of the beast". So no mask, no vaccine.

 

Don't they get tired of everything being the mark of the beast?  Social Security numbers, bar codes, debit cards, Apple Wallet, PayPal, now this vaccine. 

Sorry, off topic.  I'm just tired of that particular line of thinking.

[Kanin]

5 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

 

With a comfortable income, it’s still going to wind up taking me over a year from the decision to move to actually get into a house.  There doesn’t seem to be a single place in the US right now where a quick and affordable move is possible without gobs of cash to overpay and bypass overwhelmed inspections, appraisals, and mortgage processing.  100% isn’t likely to cut it for the vast majority of people.

Well, that's certainly true. The housing market is insane right now. I see it here all the time with out-of-staters buying up even the crappy houses and fixing them up, leaving no houses for people of average means. 

[Carrie12345]

Just adding, I don’t support the idea of expecting people to flee their homes/communities. That’s not real problem solving.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Carrie12345 said:

Just adding, I don’t support the idea of expecting people to flee their homes/communities. That’s not real problem solving.

This is assuming people are very rooted in their communities. We moved from Texas to NY because DH is an academic and we wanted to be somewhere more culturally congenial -- we aren't actually Texan, it was just a job. I don't know if that's "real problem solving" but I'm happy we did. 

[Faith-manor]

5 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Stories of 9-year-old long haulers make me highly nervous, since DD8 will be 9 this summer 😞 . Do you know what the symptoms are?

Fatigue and muscle weakness, Neuro systems causing regression in academics - ie memory loss of things learned in the last year of two - coordination issues stemming from the muscle weakness, some heart damage though that does not appear to be severe enough to warrant major intervention, sleep disturbances, and headaches nearly everyday bordering on migraines. The child is 90 ish days post "recovery" which I guess at this point is simply a matter of no longer testing positive because clearly the child is not recovered.

My sister in France said the schools are talking about having long haul covid classes for the kids still struggling - there are enough of them to consider this which is scary - so they can have rest periods and move more slowly through the curriculum. Or course this puts them at a major disadvantage, however, if they are still sick and cane do the work or have memory lapses and neuro processing issues, there is exactly zero point in mainstreaming them.

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Faith-manor said:

Fatigue and muscle weakness, Neuro systems causing regression in academics - ie memory loss of things learned in the last year of two - coordination issues stemming from the muscle weakness, some heart damage though that does not appear to be severe enough to warrant major intervention, sleep disturbances, and headaches nearly everyday bordering on migraines. The child is 90 ish days post "recovery" which I guess at this point is simply a matter of no longer testing positive because clearly the child is not recovered.

My sister in France said the schools are talking about having long haul covid classes for the kids still struggling - there are enough of them to consider this which is scary - so they can have rest periods and move more slowly through the curriculum. Or course this puts them at a major disadvantage, however, if they are still sick and cane do the work or have memory lapses and neuro processing issues, there is exactly zero point in mainstreaming them.

Oh geez. How sad for the little kid 😞 . 

This is exactly the kind of thing I'm scared of. I really wish I knew what the rate of long haul COVID in kids is, because my behavior would really changed based on that 😕.

[HeartString]

5 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Oh geez. How sad for the little kid 😞 . 

This is exactly the kind of thing I'm scared of. I really wish I knew what the rate of long haul COVID in kids is, because my behavior would really changed based on that 😕.

Me too.  I've thinking about it since the 12+ vaccine was approved.  Until this thread I haven't seen any numbers at all on long covid in kids.  The best study that I've seen in this thread is for less 200 kids which is so tiny as to be almost meaningless. I can find numbers on COVID hospitalizations, by age, less than 3000. 

[Faith-manor]

17 minutes ago, HeartString said:

Don't they get tired of everything being the mark of the beast?  Social Security numbers, bar codes, debit cards, Apple Wallet, PayPal, now this vaccine. 

Sorry, off topic.  I'm just tired of that particular line of thinking.

Oh, one would think! It seems like a Chicken Little kind of thing so one would assume their people would eventually catch on and stop their crazy, panicked responses. But nope. I have to wonder if church offerings go up every time he preaches this whacky stuff. Follow the money is always my motto when something smells rotten in the state of Denmark, as the saying goes.

Not a number, here is a blog from Mott Children's here. It doesn't give an estimate of the percentage of children who get long covid, but describes it better than I can.

https://healthblog.uofmhealth.org/childrens-health/long-haul-covid-kids

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, HeartString said:

Me too.  I've thinking about it since the 12+ vaccine was approved.  Until this thread I haven't seen any numbers at all on long covid in kids.  The best study that I've seen in this thread is for less 200 kids which is so tiny as to be almost meaningless. I can find numbers on COVID hospitalizations, by age, less than 3000. 

All the numbers I've seen on long haul COVID in kids seem pretty meaningless 😕 . There was one that was more encouraging out of Australia but if you looked at it, the median age was 3! So not representative. And alternatively, they are largely pulling from a group of kids who actually went to the doctor, which is also selected to be a group with worse symptoms. 

I know there have been at least 3000 MIS-C cases in the US. I don't know what the real numbers are on that, either, because I'm sure it's underreported given how long after the infection it happens 😕 . 

[ktgrok]

10 hours ago, Lucy the Valiant said:

Correct, Fauci was speaking for NIH, Marks for FDA, and Walensky for CDC. If they've all been offered the vaccine, and only 50-60% have taken it, that's . . . not 100%. 

Why haven't they taken it, I wonder? 

Editing to add - I'm generally pro-vaccine. I have no reason to distrust the covid vaccines. I'm honestly looking for more info here; it seems fair to at least ask the questions about vaccines that are still experimental. 

That number was meaningless and one he pulled out of no where about an organization he doesn't even work for. He has no idea what percentage are vaccinated. That said, a huge number of people at the CDC are not scientists  but administrative assistants, janitors, etc etc. Just average people. 

2 hours ago, whitestavern said:

I have been reading articles this morning to try and find one that supports BIll's "half" claim. So far I've found none with any numbers, just lots of "it's rare" statements. 

A lot has to do with what you call "long". Some studies show kids sick for a month or two but don't call that "long". Either way, having a kid sick for a month or so would not be fun. 

[kokotg]

Aside from concerns about long term effects on kids (and I agree we really just don't have good information on that yet), in a school setting having lots of kids sick, particularly with something that requires quarantines like COVID, is just really disruptive. I wish the CDC would either have waited until school was out for summer or at least said that this doesn't change the recommendations for masking in schools. Because now you're absolutely going to be looking at a situation where older kids (and some teachers) claim to be vaccinated when they're not while sitting in classrooms with kids not old enough to be vaccinated (or who just became eligible a few days ago).

[madteaparty]

I’ve sort of followed my own sense all along from the data at the tome. We’ve had get togethers  outside the entire pandemic, unmasked and distanced (no hugs or kisses). People have come here (inside) and wore their masks.  I flew internationally double masked but once in a warm climate when all is outside I went unmasked even though rates were high. I will continue doing this, ie masked inside.

[HeartString]

9 minutes ago, kokotg said:

Aside from concerns about long term effects on kids (and I agree we really just don't have good information on that yet), in a school setting having lots of kids sick, particularly with something that requires quarantines like COVID, is just really disruptive. I wish the CDC would either have waited until school was out for summer or at least said that this doesn't change the recommendations for masking in schools. Because now you're absolutely going to be looking at a situation where older kids (and some teachers) claim to be vaccinated when they're not while sitting in classrooms with kids not old enough to be vaccinated (or who just became eligible a few days ago).

I know my governor dropped our mask mandate but specifically kept the it for schools. Some states dropped their mask requirements months ago though.  Arkansas dropped theirs in March.  

[kokotg]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

I don't know that this is right. I don't think most exposures come from dense urban environments, or places like South Dakota wouldn't have had major spikes. 

I'd love to see if there's a correlation between density and COVID rates (I'd also like to see if it holds up if one leaves out the Northeast, which had the dubious honor of being hit first.) I'd be super curious what one gets... if anyone wants to run it, I'd love to see. 

This isn't really that, but looking at the numbers by state is really interesting and kind of hard to figure out. The top ten states for cases per 100,000 are ND, RI, SD, IA, TN, UT, AZ, NE, OK, and  SC. So it certainly doesn't seem like being a sparsely populated state HELPS--the opposite if anything. What you don't see on the list are relatively densely populated states that took few precautions, like Florida and Georgia. You also don't see any states that DID take a lot of precautions, though (except RI, I assume). The list gets a lot more Northeast-centric when you look at deaths, I imagine mostly because of their unlucky beginning of the pandemic timing. 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

Edited May 15, 2021 by kokotg

[kokotg]

8 minutes ago, HeartString said:

I know my governor dropped our mask mandate but specifically kept the it for schools. Some states dropped their mask requirements months ago though.  Arkansas dropped theirs in March.  

A giant metro Atlanta school district near me dropped their mask mandate as soon as the CDC announcement was made (for vaccinated people, but no one's checking). We've never had a statewide mask mandate for anything, schools included. 

[Sneezyone]

I’m glad I don’t have to make tough calls for littles b/c this guidance is really tough for them. We don’t have younger kids in our immediate area/social circle but I’m already seeing, now that the governor is dropping the mask mandate, non-vaxed people cheering their ability to spread the disease at will. Maybe they will start hosting COVID parties and get it over with. It will be interesting to see whether/how often we see clusters in congregations and social groups that are minimally vaxxed. I’m also interested to see whether, once the vax is fully approved, whether schools make it part of mandatory vaccinations for attendance.

Edited May 15, 2021 by Sneezyone

[HeartString]

4 minutes ago, kokotg said:

A giant metro Atlanta school district near me dropped their mask mandate as soon as the CDC announcement was made (for vaccinated people, but no one's checking). We've never had a statewide mask mandate for anything, schools included. 

They probably jumped the gun, the CDC says its coming out with additional guidance for schools and camps later.  I'm guessing that district isn't likely to change back if the CDC recommends masking in schools.

[Carrie12345]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

This is assuming people are very rooted in their communities. We moved from Texas to NY because DH is an academic and we wanted to be somewhere more culturally congenial -- we aren't actually Texan, it was just a job. I don't know if that's "real problem solving" but I'm happy we did. 

Woah, there!
Context: Moving to flee anti-maskers/vaxers.
In no way was I attempting to state that people should never relocate!  Not sure where you found that subtext, lol.

[kokotg]

1 minute ago, HeartString said:

They probably jumped the gun, the CDC says its coming out with additional guidance for schools and camps later.  I'm guessing that district isn't likely to change back if the CDC recommends masking in schools.

They haven't been following CDC guidelines about anything EXCEPT masks all year (and many other districts haven't even been doing that), so I seriously doubt it.

[Dmmetler]

1 hour ago, Bambam said:

I'm in Texas - in a section that has lower vaccinated percentages (compared to the rest of the state).  Stopped in a Bucee's yesterday (those who have been in TX know Bucee's - HUGE convenience type store with a gas station - maybe 80-100+ pumps, bathrooms the size of people's houses, etc) - the employees were all masked. Maybe 10% of the others in the store were masked - and most of those were elderly folks.  I ran into someone I know who was unmasked, and I can almost guarantee she has not vaccinated and is heavily influenced by the rabid anti-vaxxers (many of whom are anti-traditional medicine too) and freedom first folks in this area.  I haven't been in any local stores yet, so I don't know what the regular stores will be like. 

That's what I expect it to be like here. The state has never had a mask mandate, and the county one is being lifted today, although it is still in place if a business has posted signage stating it is. I have never been in a store that didn't have a decent number of people either completely unmasked or with it pulled over their chin or with their nose poking out.   My suburb is leaving masking in place for the remainder of the school year, as is the bigger city. Three other suburbs are dropping it Monday, with a week of school left for elementary/middle. The kids who are at all likely to be completely vaccinated are probably no longer at school, since graduations have been happening for the last week, and most high schools have liberal exam exemption policies. My director has not announced what parks and rec's policy is-the child care director has requested that it stay in place indoors for summer camp (which is about 3/4 outside anyway) since most of the kids cannot be vaccinated yet.  I'm guessing they are waiting until the school district announces their policy for summer school. 

 

 

 

[Dmmetler]

10 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I’m glad I don’t have to make tough calls for littles b/c this guidance is really tough for them. We don’t have younger kids in our immediate area/social circle but I’m already seeing, now that the governor is dropping the mask mandate, non-vaxed people cheering their ability to spread the disease at will. Maybe they will start hosting COVID parties and get it over with. It will be interesting to see whether/how often we see clusters in congregations and social groups that are minimally vaxxed. I’m also interested to see whether, once the vax is fully approved, whether schools make it part of mandatory vaccinations for attendance.

I'm expecting at least some private schools will, and possibly some blue states, just as we're seeing colleges make it required at private schools and state college systems in very blue states now. I don't think it is likely to become mandatory here any time soon. 

[mommyoffive]

9 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

 

Most of the NIH employees aren't scientists.  They are support staff.  The lab techs, janitors, cafeteria workers, and security personnel outnumber the scientists by a lot.  I'm not sure we HAVE the numbers for just the scientists.  100 percent of the NIH scientists I know have been vaccinated, but I only know two. 😁

My county lifts its mask ban tomorrow.  Vaccinated people are free to forgo masks EXCEPT on public transportation, schools, daycares, and medical facilities.  We now have 75% of our 16 and up population with at least their first dose. and the Mass Vax centers are walk up now.  They started vaccinating 12 and up yesterday. Even though my household is completely vaccinated, I'm STILL going to be cautious for a few weeks to see if lifting the mask ban changes our positivity rate,  We've been too careful for too long to blow it now.

It's going to be really really weird to see faces in stores.  Everyone is going to look and feel naked. 😂

 

ETA:  I don't know all of the jobs at the NIH and I'm not looking it up  . . . I'm really guessing based upon how most government agencies around here are run.  

Wow!!!  So jealous.  My county is in the 30s.  😞   As someone that is fully vaccinated I am not ready to go without a mask indoors yet based on the vaccine rate in my county.  I think if we were 70 or 80 percent and rates were low then I would start feeling ok with it.  I am like you and would be careful for awhile. 

But I have younger kids too so I am not ready for them to go places without a mask because our county isn't even close to herd immunity.   

Edited May 15, 2021 by mommyoffive

[mommyoffive]

3 hours ago, Quill said:

IMO, this is almost entirely the reasoning. 

From the beginning of vaccine availability, it was my belief that the protocols/mandates remaining in place, even when people were vaccinated was 90% because social behavior is well understood and maybe 10% because it couldn’t be said for certain that vaxxed people did not transmit. 

Personally, I feel the timing is ideal, because those who really wanted the vax have largely all gotten it, along with many people who were on the fence but were persuaded to by others (my boss is one of these) and, IMO, it’s time to “reward” those of us who have gotten vaxed. I admit I might feel differently, though, if I lived in a place where mask compliance and/or vaccine uptake had been low all along. Our Governor is lifting most restrictions this weekend. I think the timing is great. 

Would you feel the same way if you had kids under 12?  Or even 12-15 who are not fully vaccinated yet? 

Honestly I can see myself feeling the way you do if I had kids all 16 and over and they were fully vaccinated and protected. 

[Not_a_Number]

18 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

Woah, there!
Context: Moving to flee anti-maskers/vaxers.
In no way was I attempting to state that people should never relocate!  Not sure where you found that subtext, lol.

But I think it's the same thing -- we were moving for reasons for reasons of cultural mismatch. To me, moving because of a strong anti-vaccine and anti-mask culture would be pretty similar. 

Edited May 15, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

25 minutes ago, kokotg said:

This isn't really that, but looking at the numbers by state is really interesting and kind of hard to figure out. The top ten states for cases per 100,000 are ND, RI, SD, IA, TN, UT, AZ, NE, OK, and  SC. So it certainly doesn't seem like being a sparsely populated state HELPS--the opposite if anything. What you don't see on the list are relatively densely populated states that took few precautions, like Florida and Georgia. You also don't see any states that DID take a lot of precautions, though (except RI, I assume). The list gets a lot more Northeast-centric when you look at deaths, I imagine mostly because of their unlucky beginning of the pandemic timing. 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

I'd use the death and not the case numbers. All the case numbers measure is whether people had it early or late. 

[SKL]

11 hours ago, Spy Car said:

Half of children that have contracted Covid have issues with ongoing illness. Half.

This is nothing remotely like the common cold.

Bill

This is not factual, unless you are counting illnesses that kids were going to get regardless of Covid.  Almost all young children who get Covid have mild to no symptoms, during or after.

[Spy Car]

11 minutes ago, SKL said:

This is not factual, unless you are counting illnesses that kids were going to get regardless of Covid.  Almost all young children who get Covid have mild to no symptoms, during or after.

That not what the scientific studies suggest.

Children seem very vulnerable to Long Covid and other protracted illness.

Mind blowing that you, of all people, would attempt to make claims of not being "factual." The misinformation you spread is very dangerous.

Bill

 

[SKL]

11 hours ago, Spy Car said:

The paper I linked referenced the first Italian study and they followed children:

These interim results are based on periodic assessments of 129 children in Italy who were diagnosed with covid-19 between March and November 2020 at the Gemelli University Hospital in Rome (medRxiv, doi.org/fv9t).

Looking at other cohorts suggests smaller percentages, but no data supports the idea that children are not at serious risk from contacting Covid just because their death rate is relatively low.

Again, if Long Covid is the same thing (or very similar to) ME/CFS, then children with LC potentially face a lifetime of devastating chronic illness that currently has no cure.

Not anything for a society to take lightly IMO.

Bill

So these were kids with Covid who got sick enough to be at a hospital.  Most kids with Covid never get that sick to begin with.

I know some kids (under 12) who have had Covid.  Many had zero symptoms ever, and zero had anything worse than a common cold.  For all of them, the only reason anyone even tested them was because someone older in the house had gotten sick.

It seems pretty clear that this one tiny study you are basing your passion on is not representative of actual risk to US kids.

[Spy Car]

Just now, SKL said:

So these were kids with Covid who got sick enough to be at a hospital.  Most kids with Covid never get that sick to begin with.

I know some kids (under 12) who have had Covid.  Many had zero symptoms ever, and zero had anything worse than a common cold.  For all of them, the only reason anyone even tested them was because someone older in the house had gotten sick.

It seems pretty clear that this one tiny study you are basing your passion on is not representative of actual risk to US kids.

And, if you check it out, many people who develop Long Covid (adults included) were never super sick or required hospitalization. But they have ongoing illness.

Your "let 'er rip" approach to the pandemic would have killed millions. 

Your "passion" is a danger to life.

Bill

[SKL]

11 hours ago, Sk8ermaiden said:

There's an good comment on that video, "60% is still almost twice the rate as general American population. If this video is supposed to suggest that employees of the CDC are more skeptical of the vaccines that general population, it fails."

And as mentioned above - he doesn't even work the CDC.

While 60% is higher than average, I would expect a higher % where (a) the vax is offered at their workplace and (b) their workplace is in the business of recommending the vax.

I do understand that there can be many personal reasons for waiting or declining.  But 60% does seem low under the circumstances.  (Could it be that their employees have already had a lot of Covid cases?)

[KungFuPanda]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

Stories of 9-year-old long haulers make me highly nervous, since DD8 will be 9 this summer 😞 . Do you know what the symptoms are?

If I learned nothing from Jurassic Park, it’s that “life will find a way.” I can envision a scenario where Covid sees young kids as the last frontier and mutates in a way that harms them. I hope we (as a nation) don’t end up living with hard regrets because people just didn’t feel like being vaccinated because they liked their odds.  I really don’t get it and can’t imagine a scenario where the generations before ours played fast and loose with smallpox or polio. 

[SKL]

4 hours ago, kristin0713 said:

I definitely want the kids vaccinated. DH is afraid of side effects and I’m working on him.  The thing with my DD is that she’s not really afraid of covid. But she is afraid of anyone touching her things or going in her room because what if they didn’t wash their hands after going to the bathroom. OCD is a tricky beast. If we say we are wearing masks even when we don’t have to, it could morph into “I need to always wear a mask now because all these people are breathing everywhere and everything is contaminated.”  Even my non-OCD kid recently said he likes masks because he hasn’t been sick all year.  I mean, we will follow the rules. I’m sure NJ will be the last to lift the mandate anyway. But I’ve got balance the mental health component and I think the best way for our family is to keep it as black and white as possible and just follow the rules. She wouldn’t be able to handle having to decide herself because it would take her down a rabbit trail of what if, what if, what if???  It’s debilitating. 

You know your daughter best.  My dd also has OCD and was very eager for the vax.  She also thinks it's too early for people to stop wearing masks (as does my non-OCD dd).  I told her it's totally up to her to mask or not mask (if the location doesn't require it).  I do think that she'll take major cues from me.  And as for me, I will only mask if there's a rational reason to - I would never do it for symbolic reasons or to try to influence others' behavior.  We discuss the whys of these types of decisions all the time.  Time will tell whether she'll feel OK doffing the mask once "fully vaxed."  Anyway that won't happen until late June, at which time she'll have become accustomed to seeing unmasked (vaxed) people around the public.

[Carrie12345]

35 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

But I think it's the same thing -- we were moving for reasons for reasons of cultural mismatch. To me, moving because of a strong anti-vaccine and anti-mask culture would be pretty similar. 

I disagree. We can slap “culture” on any issue and that doesn’t make them all  equally problematic. I mean, I wouldn’t go around telling people living in South American drug cartel “culture” that they should stay and fight to the death any more than I would tell someone who doesn’t like their neighbor’s new lawn ornament that they should move to escape kitschy “culture”. Context matters.

[SKL]

1 hour ago, HeartString said:

Me too.  I've thinking about it since the 12+ vaccine was approved.  Until this thread I haven't seen any numbers at all on long covid in kids.  The best study that I've seen in this thread is for less 200 kids which is so tiny as to be almost meaningless. I can find numbers on COVID hospitalizations, by age, less than 3000. 

This is actually reassuring IMO.

[Spy Car]

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Stories of 9-year-old long haulers make me highly nervous, since DD8 will be 9 this summer 😞 . Do you know what the symptoms are?

Potential symptoms include: Fatigue (see below), brain fog (cognitive dysfunction), headaches of a new type, sore throats, joint pain, GI issues, dizziness, sensitivity to light, etc.

The worrisome thing is these are same same cluster of symptoms as the illness known as ME/CFS (chronic fatigue syndrome).

And the "fatigue" aspect--better described at utter exhaustion--of both illnesses share the defining (and unique) characteristic of ME/CFS of including what is called PEM (post-exertional malaise) or "exercise intolerance," which means that people with condition have their symptoms get much worse when they attempt to exercise or even participate in normal life activities that put them beyond their very narrow energy windows.

This makes ME/CFS a very devastating chronic illness and one with no known cure. Long Covid is presenting the same cluster of symptoms. Both are post-viral illnesses.

This is no joke. And nothing remotely like the common cold. 

Bill

 

 

[Starr]

Masking is most effective in slowing down transmission. I don't understand why we are lifting the masking regulations. Children are not vaccinated nor are large amounts of folks over 12. 

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, kokotg said:

This isn't really that, but looking at the numbers by state is really interesting and kind of hard to figure out. The top ten states for cases per 100,000 are ND, RI, SD, IA, TN, UT, AZ, NE, OK, and  SC. So it certainly doesn't seem like being a sparsely populated state HELPS--the opposite if anything. What you don't see on the list are relatively densely populated states that took few precautions, like Florida and Georgia. You also don't see any states that DID take a lot of precautions, though (except RI, I assume). The list gets a lot more Northeast-centric when you look at deaths, I imagine mostly because of their unlucky beginning of the pandemic timing. 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

To be fair, Florida had no restrictions statewide, but the most populous counties did have their own restrictions. Which are now illegal...thanks to our Governor. They were not as strict as many places regarding capacity, etc. But the big counties had mask mandates in public spaces. 

[kokotg]

20 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

To be fair, Florida had no restrictions statewide, but the most populous counties did have their own restrictions. Which are now illegal...thanks to our Governor. They were not as strict as many places regarding capacity, etc. But the big counties had mask mandates in public spaces. 

yes, and the same is true for Georgia. I'd be interested to see an analysis based on stuff like education level/income level/etc. Florida and Georgia both have large urban populations with a lot of wealthy and college educated people. 

The thing about restrictions is that NOWHERE in the US really locked down that much long term. Mask mandates were often not enforced, churches were allowed to meet even when gatherings were otherwise restricted in some places, there was nothing anyone could do about private family gatherings that were responsible for a lot of spread in the winter surge, etc. So I suspect it mattered a lot more what level of caution people chose to take on their own. Or what level they were allowed to take; wealthier people are much more likely to have been able to work from home the whole time, for example. 

[kokotg]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'd use the death and not the case numbers. All the case numbers measure is whether people had it early or late. 

The list looks somewhat similar for deaths IF you take out the northeast. So top 15 is NJ, NY, MA, RI, MS, AZ, CT, LA, SD, AL, PA, IN, ND, MI, NM. You still get ND and SD in there and places like AL and LA. What you add in is more densely populated states that got hit early, including the northeast and also Michigan. I don't know....it's hard to see much of a pattern outside of things were really bad in the northeast early and in the Dakotas later. There's a big element of luck, too, since so much depends on superspreader events and so many cases don't spread much or at all. Like how South Korea was bad early on, but pretty much entirely because of that megachurch outbreak. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, mommyoffive said:

Would you feel the same way if you had kids under 12?  Or even 12-15 who are not fully vaccinated yet? 

Honestly I can see myself feeling the way you do if I had kids all 16 and over and they were fully vaccinated and protected. 

I don’t know. I have a theory about what I would do in that case, but it’s probably (based on this thread) not what many people want to hear. From what I have learned about the research into this disease, kids have a very low rate of transmission AND a low incidence of symptomatic illness. That is the reason the vax developers did not start there; they started with adults, the elderly and people with risk factors for severe disease. So, my theoretical belief is, if I had kids under 12, who did not have significant risk factors, I would not be too fussed about lifting mandates. 

My 16yo is not vaccinated yet, though he soon will be on his way because he (at long last) agreed with me that it is inevitable he will need to be vaxxed to participate in things he cares about. So he just told me, since the lifting by the CDC, that I should probably make an appointment and just get it over with. 

Having said all that, I do think I might feel differently if compliance around here was already poor. Thankfully, that has never been the case throughout the pandemic - at long last, a perk for living in this sky-blue liberal state. (Said with tongue in cheek.) 

[Not_a_Number]

13 minutes ago, Quill said:

So, my theoretical belief is, if I had kids under 12, who did not have significant risk factors, I would not be too fussed about lifting mandates. 

I guess I don’t feel comfortable about the possibility of long COVID. If I only had to worry about the initial illness, I’d feel chill.

[Matryoshka]

8 minutes ago, kokotg said:

The list looks somewhat similar for deaths IF you take out the northeast. So top 15 is NJ, NY, MA, RI, MS, AZ, CT, LA, SD, AL, PA, IN, ND, MI, NM. You still get ND and SD in there and places like AL and LA. What you add in is more densely populated states that got hit early, including the northeast and also Michigan. I don't know....it's hard to see much of a pattern outside of things were really bad in the northeast early and in the Dakotas later. There's a big element of luck, too, since so much depends on superspreader events and so many cases don't spread much or at all. Like how South Korea was bad early on, but pretty much entirely because of that megachurch outbreak. 

I feel like these comparisons of areas would be more valid if you started them after the first wave, where there were soooo many cases we didn't know about.  If you look at my state's case/death curve, the cases were way higher in the second wave, where there was adequate testing, but deaths are much lower - meaning there were tons of undiagnosed cases in that first wave, and also they knew almost nothing about how to treat it.  Comparing those total numbers (from both waves) to places where it only hit badly after people knew what was hitting them is a bit apple/orangey.   Like, yes, the northeast has been much better about masking - but not during that first wave, where no one realized it was here and the experts were telling everyone not to mask.  So saying 'well, the northeast has been good about masking but look they still have the highest death numbers' - yeah, but the vast majority of those deaths were from the time before masking started.  Look how the peaks of known cases vs. deaths is reversed in the two waves....  

[HeartString]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

So these were kids with Covid who got sick enough to be at a hospital.  Most kids with Covid never get that sick to begin with.

I know some kids (under 12) who have had Covid.  Many had zero symptoms ever, and zero had anything worse than a common cold.  For all of them, the only reason anyone even tested them was because someone older in the house had gotten sick.

It seems pretty clear that this one tiny study you are basing your passion on is not representative of actual risk to US kids.

Wait…I missed that part. So that study is showing tvst half of kids *hospitalized* with Covid get long COVID?  The number of kids sick enough to be hospitalized is tiny.  
 

I wish I could find numbers with a better sample.  

Edited May 15, 2021 by HeartString

[1234]

I don’t have any under 12s but I don’t think the new guidelines are going to matter much here. We haven’t had a mask mandate, or really any other restrictions, for months and we don’t have even 40% of the population vaccinated. You can get same day appointments here but the people who wanted them have already had them it seems. Despite all that our cases and positivity rate have been decreasing for a bit now. We’re all vaccinated in this house but will continue to mask when inside public places.

Dh and I just got back from eating and walking around downtown and no one wears a mask outside anymore. The playground was packed and there appeared to be a girl’s volleyball tournament taking place so there were lots of people. We still haven’t eaten inside anywhere as there are plenty of outdoor places for us to enjoy. 

[Frances]

4 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

Sadly I think you’re right. It’s probably worth considering the different risks though. I walked seven blocks to the coffee shop this morning and passed exactly no one on the way.  There’s very few apartment buildings around me and people aren’t sharing elevators.  It’s always been fairly easy to distance at restaurants and Walmart because it’s just not crowded to begin with.  Playgrounds are the same. It is much easier for me in my rural town to not be exposed to Covid than it would be if I was still living in a large city.

The very, very rural areas in my state have had some pretty bad super spreader events, primarily due to churches not following guidelines. While the everyday risk might be lower in some of these areas due to extreme lack of population density, the low vaccination rates and relatively older populations combined with large indoor gatherings will likely continue to cause illness and death.

[rebcoola]

3 hours ago, kokotg said:

Aside from concerns about long term effects on kids (and I agree we really just don't have good information on that yet), in a school setting having lots of kids sick, particularly with something that requires quarantines like COVID, is just really disruptive. I wish the CDC would either have waited until school was out for summer or at least said that this doesn't change the recommendations for masking in schools. Because now you're absolutely going to be looking at a situation where older kids (and some teachers) claim to be vaccinated when they're not while sitting in classrooms with kids not old enough to be vaccinated (or who just became eligible a few days ago).

Absolutely they changed the spacing rules from 6ft to 3ft for schools here.  The number of kids quarantined skyrocketed like 200's to 1500's at time due to exposure.  So disruptive.

I just don't understand the reasoning if you want incentive the vaccine than say when we get to x percentage vaxxed everyone can take off their masks.

I don't expect good data on kids most of the ones who had it never got tested here.  People got actively mad at anyone who dares to get tested unless they needed a hospital.  About half I knew had symptoms and all the ones over 10.  One who was 11 at the time still has an ugly purple rash over a large chunk of her body and arms she was sick in January.

[Not_a_Number]

36 minutes ago, HeartString said:

Wait…I missed that part. So that study is showing tvst half of kids *hospitalized* with Covid get long COVID?  The number of kids sick enough to be hospitalized is tiny.  
 

I wish I could find numbers with a better sample.  

There aren’t good numbers. That’s the problem.

[Spy Car]

The data is still weak, but there are very troubling anecdotal reports and surveys that are ominous.

For example, an anonymous, online survey developed by an organization of parents of children suffering from persisting symptoms post-Covid shows that 53.7% of these long haul children are experiencing "post-exertional malaise," which is the defining symptom of ME/CFS (which is a devastating life-long illness at this juncture).

The same self-reporting survey shows only 10% of children with Long Covid returning to previous levels of physical activity.

Do we need better data? You bet!

But we ignore the potential for catastrophic chronic illness at our peril.

https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202103.0271/v1

Bill

Edited May 15, 2021 by Spy Car

[Bambam]

I thought this was interesting for those with inflammatory arthritis. 

"

Q: What does the new CDC mask guidance mean for people with inflammatory arthritis?

A: The Centers for Disease Control announced that fully vaccinated Americans can go without masks in outdoor and indoor settings and relax six-feet social distancing habits, with some exceptions.

However, the original COVID-19 virus remains an active threat and variants are also active. COVID-19 vaccine guidelines from the American College of Rheumatology note that people with autoimmune arthritis are more likely to get infected or experience more severe illness or hospitalization due to a COVID-19 infection. Also, these patients may experience a blunted response to the vaccines and the protection may not last as long as in the general population.

There is no way to know who is vaccinated among the general public. The CDC Director advises that immunocompromised patients, including those who are on immunosuppressive medications, who have been fully vaccinated talk to their doctors before changing mask behavior. "

https://www.arthritis.org/health-wellness/about-arthritis/related-conditions/other-diseases/covid-19-faqs-infection-risk-and-prevention