CDC removing mask mandate what will you do with dc under 12

[Spy Car]

6 hours ago, whitestavern said:

I have been reading articles this morning to try and find one that supports BIll's "half" claim. So far I've found none with any numbers, just lots of "it's rare" statements. 

I linked the study, so it should not be too hard to find.

I'm fully accepting that the first italian study may be an outlier, but claims that children's risks from Covid are no greater than the common cold are patently false.

Bill

[Spy Car]

7 hours ago, Meriwether said:

Reading your posts while reading The Gulag Archipelago has been...interesting.

Hopefully you take in the message of the book of the dangers presented to humankind by extremist ideologies who place no value on human life.

Interesting indeed.

Bill

[MercyA]

5 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

This has been my experience. The church two blocks away is a zero mask situation, and actually just began purging members who have not returned from the pandemic because the church body is not masking, social distancing, or taking any other protocols. They have also actively preached against the vaccine, and have been a source of more than one major covid outbreak in our county with three people dead and eleven long covid sufferers seven of whom appear to have extensive damage. Of those long covid haulers, one is nine years old, and one is 22. The 22 has dropped out of college, and though his case was last September, he is still too weak to walk without a cane and someone staying close because he is a fall risk. But they keep NOT masking keep vilifying people for not attending church, and keep preaching that the vaccine is the "mark of the beast".

They claim the vaccine is " the mark of the beast". So no mask, no vaccine.

Please tell me this is not the Wesleyan Church you've mentioned before. I currently belong to a Wesleyan congregation. 😞

If it is, this is the time of year when all Wesleyan churches ask their members to either confirm or rescind their membership. Practically speaking, it may have the effect of "purging" members who haven't been attending due to COVID, but it is likely not why member counts are being taken at this time. That's a yearly occurrence. 

It's very frustrating, because the denomination has great stances on a lot of issues, including racial justice and women's rights. We broke away from the Methodists in part because of slavery. But individual congregations tend to be very politically conservative right now--including mine. 

[Not_a_Number]

30 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

I linked the study, so it should not be too hard to find.

I'm fully accepting that the first italian study may be an outlier, but claims that children's risks from Covid are no greater than the common cold are patently false.

Bill

I do expect that study to be a serious outlier. I agree with you that it's no common cold, though. 

[ktgrok]

 I think most people agree we don't have enough good info on kids...but the sane thing to do would be to wait another few months to lift restrictions, given what we don't know. Not lift restrictions, then later on find out Oops....long covid is a real problem. 

 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, ktgrok said:

 I think most people agree we don't have enough good info on kids...but the sane thing to do would be to wait another few months to lift restrictions, given what we don't know. Not lift restrictions, then later on find out Oops....long covid is a real problem. 

Right. And we're expecting vaccines for kids in a few months!! Why drop restrictions NOW?? 

[Spy Car]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

I do expect that study to be a serious outlier. I agree with you that it's no common cold, though. 

I'm not sure if you've had anyone in your circle who has ME/CFS--but I have--and that's not an illness that I'd wish on my worst enemy.

The parallels between post-viral Long Covid and post-viral ME/CFS are virtually complete.

ME/CFS is a devastating illness that most people never recover from. If Long Covid is essentially the same thing, then god help those people.

Bill

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

I'm not sure if you've had anyone in your circle who has ME/CFS--but I have--and that's not an illness that I'd wish on my worst enemy.

The parallels between post-viral Long Covid and post-viral ME/CFS are virtually complete.

ME/CFS is a devastating illness that most people never recover from. If Long Covid is essentially the same thing, then god help those people.

Bill

I mean, as I've said, we're staying masked and outdoors. I take the possibility very seriously. 

But I am extremely skeptical half of kids who get COVID will get long COVID. 

[AbcdeDooDah]

9 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I mean, as I've said, we're staying masked and outdoors. I take the possibility very seriously. 

But I am extremely skeptical half of kids who get COVID will get long COVID. 

I’m pretty sure the study said half of those who were hospitalized, in that group, got long Covid. 

Edited May 15, 2021 by AbcdeDooDah

[Spy Car]

3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I mean, as I've said, we're staying masked and outdoors. I take the possibility very seriously. 

But I am extremely skeptical half of kids who get COVID will get long COVID. 

If one is familiar with ME/CFS, I'd think even a 1% or 2% (or 0.5%) chance that a child might develop a similar syndrome would be cause for serious caution.

The UK numbers so far have pointed to 11%-14% of children (depending on age cohorts) who have had Covid having lingering symptoms.

If half of those children develop ME/CFS, we are in for a major public health catastrophe.

Bill

 

 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Spy Car said:

If one is familiar with ME/CFS, I'd think even a 1% or 2% (or 0.5%) chance that a child might develop a similar syndrome would be cause for serious caution.

Right. That's my personal estimate of the number, and it's resulting in serious caution for our family. 

 

1 minute ago, Spy Car said:

The UK numbers so far have pointed to 11%-14% of children (depending on age cohorts) who have had Covid having lingering symptoms.

If half of those children develop ME/CFS, we are in for a major public health catastrophe.

Bill

I think that number is inflated. We can discuss why I think that if you like. 

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, MercyA said:

Please tell me this is not the Wesleyan Church you've mentioned before. I currently belong to a Wesleyan congregation. 😞

If it is, this is the time of year when all Wesleyan churches ask their members to either confirm or rescind their membership. Practically speaking, it may have the effect of "purging" members who haven't been attending due to COVID, but it is likely not why member counts are being taken at this time. That's a yearly occurrence. 

It's very frustrating, because the denomination has great stances on a lot of issues, including racial justice and women's rights. We broke away from the Methodists in part because of slavery. But individual congregations tend to be very politically conservative right now--including mine. 

It is the same, but the purge began back in November, and letters were sent out specifically stating they were getting rid of the folks that put "fear over faith". Now that said, my mother informed me that the church is " Wesleyan affiliated" and the pastor holds his ordination papers with the Wesleyan denomination. But in some sort of strange rules twist, are nondenominational. I really do not know how that works. 

[Penelope]

This is one of only two decent studies of pediatric Long Covid, after initial community diagnosis, that I have seen. Not that there aren’t more. The other is the Australian study that was mentioned, that was smaller and trended younger ages. 

This was prospective and had a cohort of those with similar symptoms who tested negative. I already posted it in another thread, so apologies if you’ve seen it. 
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.05.21256649v1.full.pdf

Edited May 15, 2021 by Penelope

[SKL]

3 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

There aren’t good numbers. That’s the problem.

It's a good sign though too.  It means there aren't enough cases to worry about statistically.

[SKL]

50 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Right. And we're expecting vaccines for kids in a few months!! Why drop restrictions NOW?? 

Because even last year they knew that the sun kills Covid and playing outside without a mask is pretty safe.  Possibly healthier than playing outside in a mask.

People who have kids congregating indoors can still have mask mandates.

[Syllieann]

19 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

It is the same, but the purge began back in November, and letters were sent out specifically stating they were getting rid of the folks that put "fear over faith". Now that said, my mother informed me that the church is " Wesleyan affiliated" and the pastor holds his ordination papers with the Wesleyan denomination. But in some sort of strange rules twist, are nondenominational. I really do not know how that works. 

There are a lot of people in my (former) Catholic homeschool group doing the same faith over fear thing too.  They are even having a conference to "fix the culture" of fear.  It's really ironic that these same people are spending a lot of time trying to convince people not to get vaccinated because they think it can cause other people around them to have a miscarriage.  If it wasn't something as heartbreaking as miscarriage that we were talking about, I'd find it kind of funny that their #faithoverfear can't be found now.

Edited May 15, 2021 by Syllieann

[Penelope]

8 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

 Most of the vaccine hesitant people I personally know have either already had Covid or don’t fall into high risk categories. 
They truly are not concerned about catching Covid and have not been worried about it all along. 

 

You pointed out something here that seems to be often ignored, which is that percentage vaccinated is not equal to percentage with immunity.

Personally, if I had had Covid, I’d get one dose of a vaccine as a booster as the science seems to point that way. But this idea that natural immunity is not as good, is false, from what is currently known. When we talk about people that haven’t been vaccinated, we are forgetting that many millions have already been infected, up to 30 or 40% in some areas. 
 

Some percentage of those will have gotten vaccinated and overlap with vaccination percentages, but some won’t, so that the percentages immune are probably significantly higher than percent vaccinated in most places.

[ktgrok]

3 minutes ago, SKL said:

Because even last year they knew that the sun kills Covid and playing outside without a mask is pretty safe.  Possibly healthier than playing outside in a mask.

People who have kids congregating indoors can still have mask mandates.

How? How do I get say, the grocery store, or shoe store, to have a mask mandate? I can't make one all on my own. 

[Halftime Hope]

On 5/14/2021 at 2:47 PM, Kanin said:

Good question. I'm going to use that one!

It's a poor comparison, and therefore an invalid leading question: a surgeon often has to be in very close contact with another person's body for a prolonged period of time, working over a gaping breach or compromise of a  key element of the body's defense system. 

 

[Spy Car]

11 minutes ago, SKL said:

It's a good sign though too.  It means there aren't enough cases to worry about statistically.

Baloney. 

Bill

[ktgrok]

5 minutes ago, Halftime Hope said:

It's a poor comparison, and therefore an invalid leading question: a surgeon often has to be in very close contact with another person's body for a prolonged period of time, working over a gaping breach or compromise of a  key element of the body's defense system. 

 

But the point is, the reason they wear them is to contain their droplets/germs. If masks do this, it makes sense to wear them during a pandemic to protect others. If masks do not do this, then why do surgeons wear them?

[pinball]

What I think will be a major public health crisis with children...

the little ones who have spent half or a third or a quarter of their lives without going out in public. To a grocery or library or the doctor or to a seldom seen friend or family member

there have been posts here which have spoken of this; not taking their 1 or 2 or 3 year olds ANYWHERE or a very, very limited small number of times they left their own property since last March. 

What does that do to little ones? What major part of their development did they miss? What social and emotional growth windows have shut?

[Kanin]

8 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

But the point is, the reason they wear them is to contain their droplets/germs. If masks do this, it makes sense to wear them during a pandemic to protect others. If masks do not do this, then why do surgeons wear them?

Exactly. And in a pandemic... why would we not do something we know is helpful? Particularly something that, for most people, is no big deal.

[busymama7]

8 minutes ago, pinball said:

What I think will be a major public health crisis with children...

the little ones who have spent half or a third or a quarter of their lives without going out in public. To a grocery or library or the doctor or to a seldom seen friend or family member

there have been posts here which have spoken of this; not taking their 1 or 2 or 3 year olds ANYWHERE or a very, very limited small number of times they left their own property since last March. 

What does that do to little ones? What major part of their development did they miss? What social and emotional growth windows have shut?

I worry about this too.  I really do.   I have an 8 year old that freaks out over not having a mask on.  It seems unhealthy to me the level that he is concerned about it.  It's not even required here for his age but we've had them do it anyways.  But now if it's forgotten and it's just a quick thing he freaks and pulls up his shirt to over his nose etc.  I do worry about this.  Not to the exclusion of other issues (like losing a parent or our current one of dealing with a parent with long covid) but it's also there as a concern of mine. 

[melmichigan]

Here is what I refer to currently with regards to children and long haul covid.  We definitely are in need of good data.  https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/p/children-account-for-224-of-covid (I apologize if it's already been linked.  I'm not going to have time to go back over the entire thread.)

We continue to mask.  That won't change for a while as I'm immunocompromised although my DS13 has gotten his first shot.  

Edited May 15, 2021 by melmichigan

[HeartString]

This was a good read…

 

Two scientific findings altered the calculus: Vaccinated people rarely transmit the virus, and the shots are effective against variants.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/14/health/cdc-masks-vaccines-variants.html

[KSera]

10 hours ago, Quill said:

Personally, I feel the timing is ideal, because those who really wanted the vax have largely all gotten it, along with many people who were on the fence but were persuaded to by others (my boss is one of these) and, IMO, it’s time to “reward” those of us who have gotten vaxed. I admit I might feel differently, though, if I lived in a place where mask compliance and/or vaccine uptake had been low all along. Our Governor is lifting most restrictions this weekend. I think the timing is great. 

I feel like I keep saying this, but there are lots of places where even the very eager haven’t been able to get both shots yet. Many places didn’t open shots to everyone until mid April, and some of those remained competitive to find appointments for a couple weeks after that. That means that  even the people who got their first shot right when it opened up, have  only this past week been eligible for their second shot if they got Madonna, and then they need two weeks for it to take affect. It doesn’t take into account the people who couldn’t get an appointment until a couple weeks after that and aren’t yet to their second shot. And of course it doesn’t take into account the 12 to 15--year-olds.  Most people I know were very eager to get vaccinated as soon as they could, and they are all just now coming to for their second shots. That’s one reason this seems premature to me.

9 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Those numbers aren't right. It's not even half for adults. 

My personal current estimate for adults is in the single percent, but I wouldn't be able to tell you if it's closer to 1% or 10%. Probably somewhere in the middle. 

I agree half is way too high for kids, but single percentage seems too low for adults based on anything I’ve seen. I guess it depends on your definitions.

14 minutes ago, pinball said:

the little ones who have spent half or a third or a quarter of their lives without going out in public. To a grocery or library or the doctor or to a seldom seen friend or family member

there have been posts here which have spoken of this; not taking their 1 or 2 or 3 year olds ANYWHERE or a very, very limited small number of times they left their own property since last March. 

What does that do to little ones? What major part of their development did they miss? What social and emotional growth windows have shut?

I think people are worrying way too much about the young ones as far as social and development. My little one is the least affected by all of this. It’s been much worse for the young adults who are at an age where they’re ready to be separating more and moving on, but they haven’t been able to this year. I can see it being an issue for a toddler or young child in an impoverished environment, where being in high-quality daycare was really providing them with more than what they are getting at home, but in my experience it’s not been an issue for kids in homes where they are getting high-quality care from their parents. There has been lots of history where babies weren’t going out to stores and play dates and such, and they were just fine. Their parents are their important socializers at that age. I do look forward to being able to take my youngest out places again. She’s seen family outside and done zoom activities and FaceTime with extended family and otherwise continued to grow and play and learn and develop. She seems very much healthy and right on target.

[ktgrok]

6 minutes ago, KSera said:

 

I think people are worrying way too much about the young ones as far as social and development. My little one is the least affected by all of this. It’s been much worse for the young adults who are at an age where they’re ready to be separating more and moving on, but they haven’t been able to this year. I can see it being an issue for a toddler or young child in an impoverished environment, where being in high-quality daycare was really providing them with more than what they are getting at home, but in my experience it’s not been an issue for kids in homes where they are getting high-quality care from their parents. There has been lots of history where babies weren’t going out to stores and play dates and such, and they were just fine. Their parents are their important socializers at that age. I do look forward to being able to take my youngest out places again. She’s seen family outside and done zoom activities and FaceTime with extended family and otherwise continued to grow and play and learn and develop. She seems very much healthy and right on target.

Same. My just turned 4 yr old is doing the best of the kids. But she has her 3 siblings, her parents, books, toys, a yard, we wave and say hi to neighbors, we recently visited the grandparents, and she did go in some stores where masking was enforced. 

She has developed a bit of weirdness about the aduls leaving though, now that she is used to Daddy working from home and mama usually ordering groceries. She has to say, "Bye! I love you" right when you leave...but if she says it and you are still putting shoes on she says it again, and again, until you actually leave. 

[Penelope]

8 minutes ago, melmichigan said:

Here is what I refer to currently with regards to children and long haul covid.  We definitely are in need of good data.  https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/p/children-account-for-224-of-covid (I apologize if it's already been linked.  I'm not going to have time to go back over the entire thread.)

Not trying to pick on anyone’s post just marking here to refer to the study within the link. The other study is the Italian one already referred to.

The UK preprint I linked earlier is a much better study than the UK study linked in that blog post, because the study is the blog post is

Quote

An anonymous, online survey was developed by an organization of parents of children suffering from persisting symptoms since initial infection.

This is an example of the the of data collection with about the highest amount of bias possible. There is no way anything that something like that can be used to say anything about the general population of children.

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Penelope said:

This is one of only two decent studies of pediatric Long Covid, after initial community diagnosis, that I have seen. Not that there aren’t more. The other is the Australian study that was mentioned, that was smaller and trended younger ages. 

This was prospective and had a cohort of those with similar symptoms who tested negative. I already posted it in another thread, so apologies if you’ve seen it. 
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.05.21256649v1.full.pdf

From that link:

Seventy-seven (4.4%) children had illness duration ≥28 days (LC28), more commonly 102 experienced by older vs. younger children (59 (5.1%) vs. 18 (3.1%), p=0.046). The 103 commonest symptoms experienced by these children were fatigue (84%), headache (80%) 104 and anosmia (80%); however, by day 28 the median symptom burden was two. Only 25 105 (1.8%) of 1,379 children experienced symptoms for ≥56 days

To me, over 4% of kids bing sick more than 4 weeks is significant, and nearly 2% were sick for more than 2 months. Think how disruptive that would be for school, etc. that seems worth having people mask in public a few more months, until kids can be vaccinated. 

[pinball]

IME, most of the focus for “kids” is school age and up, including post high school young adults. 

Around Pre-K and younger, it’s like they are not on the radar

[Penelope]

13 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

From that link:

Seventy-seven (4.4%) children had illness duration ≥28 days (LC28), more commonly 102 experienced by older vs. younger children (59 (5.1%) vs. 18 (3.1%), p=0.046). The 103 commonest symptoms experienced by these children were fatigue (84%), headache (80%) 104 and anosmia (80%); however, by day 28 the median symptom burden was two. Only 25 105 (1.8%) of 1,379 children experienced symptoms for ≥56 days

To me, over 4% of kids bing sick more than 4 weeks is significant, and nearly 2% were sick for more than 2 months. Think how disruptive that would be for school, etc. that seems worth having people mask in public a few more months, until kids can be vaccinated. 

Sure, it’s significant. It’s a much better done study than the others, and it is a smaller percentage that is probably closer to the true number than other estimates that have been stated in the thread or in surveys.

It still won’t be 4% of children who contract Covid, because it’s been estimated that 50%, more or less, of children are asymptomatic. These children were tested because they had symptoms. These children were all school-aged (the Australian study had younger children), and parents all had smart phone access and might represent certain socioeconomic groups more than others. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, Penelope said:

This is one of only two decent studies of pediatric Long Covid, after initial community diagnosis, that I have seen. Not that there aren’t more. The other is the Australian study that was mentioned, that was smaller and trended younger ages. 

This was prospective and had a cohort of those with similar symptoms who tested negative. I already posted it in another thread, so apologies if you’ve seen it. 
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.05.21256649v1.full.pdf

The odd thing about this study is that they are assuming the negatively testing kids were COVID-free. Did anyone do antibody tests on these kids or anything? It's not obvious they are comparing anything but COVID to COVID. 

[Not_a_Number]

21 minutes ago, Penelope said:

Sure, it’s significant. It’s a much better done study than the others, and it is a smaller percentage that is probably closer to the true number than other estimates that have been stated in the thread or in surveys.

Yes, this is obviously a better study. 

 

21 minutes ago, Penelope said:

It still won’t be 4% of children who contract Covid, because it’s been estimated that 50%, more or less, of children are asymptomatic. These children were tested because they had symptoms. These children were all school-aged (the Australian study had younger children), and parents all had smart phone access and might represent certain socioeconomic groups more than others. 

Something like 1% to 2% of kids getting long COVID sounds about right to me. 

The problem is that the fact that kids can get long COVID is kind of scary to me. It feels like we have a very poor understanding of what this virus does to our bodies, so I feel a lot of foreboding about what it is we'll discover a decade from now 😕 . 

 

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, KSera said:

I agree half is way too high for kids, but single percentage seems too low for adults based on anything I’ve seen. I guess it depends on your definitions.

I meant real long COVID -- 3+ months of struggling. Have you seen something showing it's more likely than single percent? 

[Galatea]

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

But the point is, the reason they wear them is to contain their droplets/germs. If masks do this, it makes sense to wear them during a pandemic to protect others. If masks do not do this, then why do surgeons wear them?

Surgeons wear masks during surgery to keep open wounds from getting contaminated, to prevent infection in wounds!  Not only do masks protect from "germs" but also from foreign matter like food, etc., that might be present in a person's mouth!

That is completely different from masking while a person is ill.  I can't believe thinking people would correlate the two.

 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Galatea said:

Surgeons wear masks during surgery to keep open wounds from getting contaminated, to prevent infection in wounds!  Not only do masks protect from "germs" but also from foreign matter like food, etc., that might be present in a person's mouth!

That is completely different from masking while a person is ill.  I can't believe thinking people would correlate the two.

Physicians mask during surgery to prevent germs coming out of their mouth and nose and infecting other people. 

Someone might mask during the pandemic to prevent germs coming out of their mouth and nose and infecting other people. 

What exactly is the distinction you're making? 

[Penelope]

5 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

The odd thing about this study is that they are assuming the negatively testing kids were COVID-free. Did anyone do antibody tests on these kids or anything? It's not obvious they are comparing anything but COVID to COVID. 

I think they assumed they had other common respiratory viruses, since while reduced, these were still around. I think most kids were still attending school most of the year. 
They also saw some differences in symptoms between groups. 
 

What is the false negative and false positive rate of PCR for Covid in young children? There could have been some kids in the positive group that didn’t have Covid, also. Antibody testing isn’t perfect, either. They could have tested for other viruses when symptomatic, but that’s probably pretty expensive for all those children with mostly mild disease.

This part was reassuring for me, after seeing some stories reported this past year.

Quote

In our cohort, neither attentional problems nor memory
539 complaints nor anxiety were reported. Isolated cases of low mood and/or irritability were
540 consistent with, if not lower than, previously reported statistics in the general school-aged
541 healthy population.39 Our data do not support anecdotal reports of weakness and seizures
542 as common features in children with COVID-19, whether of short or longer illness duration;
543 and no severe neurological symptoms were reported. 

 

[Galatea]

11 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Physicians mask during surgery to prevent germs coming out of their mouth and nose and infecting other people. 

Someone might mask during the pandemic to prevent germs coming out of their mouth and nose and infecting other people. 

What exactly is the distinction you're making? 

I just said it.  Open wounds.  Foreign matter.  Big difference from breathing in tiny particles.

[Sdel]

8 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Physicians mask during surgery to prevent germs coming out of their mouth and nose and infecting other people. 

Someone might mask during the pandemic to prevent germs coming out of their mouth and nose and infecting other people. 

What exactly is the distinction you're making? 

The masks surgeons use are to prevent bacterial infections....not viruses, and patients are given antibiotics as part of surgery.  None of them even pretend that masks used for surgery are intended to stop viral transmissions; that is why you have other types of fitted masks being used when patients have viral infections. 

[SKL]

2 hours ago, ktgrok said:

How? How do I get say, the grocery store, or shoe store, to have a mask mandate? I can't make one all on my own. 

If you're worried about kids spreading Covid in a grocery store right now - which seems like a very small risk, but not zero - then you could keep your little kids out of the grocery store, or make them wear super duper masks.  Or you could order delivery or have a designated vaccinated person do all your grocery shopping.

[SKL]

For all of you who are concerned about long term effects of Covid on kids under 12, I hope you are equally concerned about effects of whatever vax they come out with for that age group, which are of course absolutely unknown at present.  Many of the people so worried about a tiny possibility of 2+ months symptoms are the same people eager to vax their kids as soon as it's legal.

[SKL]

25 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Physicians mask during surgery to prevent germs coming out of their mouth and nose and infecting other people. 

Someone might mask during the pandemic to prevent germs coming out of their mouth and nose and infecting other people. 

What exactly is the distinction you're making? 

Among things mentioned by others, the body's protections against stuff breathed in has more layers than protections against stuff deposited onto an open wound.

[Penelope]

22 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I meant real long COVID -- 3+ months of struggling. Have you seen something showing it's more likely than single percent? 

I have no idea what it is, but this seems right. Maybe higher for hospitalized patients, but if we mean milder cases, yes. 

We will know more as time goes on. 
 

Sometimes people have only loss of smell, and that is counted in surveys as long Covid. While I really don’t want to lose my sense of smell for months, as it is unpleasant and even potentially unsafe, it is not the same as being short of breath and having debilitating fatigue and cognitive problems for many months. 

Insomnia is another symptom that is very high in certain surveys. Insomnia can be awful if it is frequent and persistent. But if the only symptoms are insomnia and anxiety, how can I know for sure that this is because of Covid, even if it started after I had Covid? 
 

We need much better data and we need to compare to people that have had influenza and other respiratory viruses, and compare to usual levels of symptoms in the population- there is some percentage of people who will say they have insomnia, anxiety, fatigue, muscle pain, etc. at any given time if you do a survey. They need to distinguish between people who initially had a severe case vs. mild and see if there are differences. 

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, Penelope said:

I have no idea what it is, but this seems right. Maybe higher for hospitalized patients, but if we mean milder cases, yes. 

We will know more as time goes on. 
 

Sometimes people have only loss of smell, and that is counted in surveys as long Covid. While I really don’t want to lose my sense of smell for months, as it is unpleasant and even potentially unsafe, it is not the same as being short of breath and having debilitating fatigue and cognitive problems for many months. 

Insomnia is another symptom that is very high in certain surveys. Insomnia can be awful if it is frequent and persistent. But if the only symptoms are insomnia and anxiety, how can I know for sure that this is because of Covid, even if it started after I had Covid? 
 

We need much better data and we need to compare to people that have had influenza and other respiratory viruses, and compare to usual levels of symptoms in the population- there is some percentage of people who will say they have insomnia, anxiety, fatigue, muscle pain, etc. at any given time if you do a survey. They need to distinguish between people who initially had a severe case vs. mild and see if there are differences. 

Yes, I'd like to see all this data. Agreed. 

 

[Spy Car]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

For all of you who are concerned about long term effects of Covid on kids under 12, I hope you are equally concerned about effects of whatever vax they come out with for that age group, which are of course absolutely unknown at present.  Many of the people so worried about a tiny possibility of 2+ months symptoms are the same people eager to vax their kids as soon as it's legal.

Not hardly a 2 month concern, rather a potential lifetime concern if Long Covid is like post-viral ME/CFS, which it mirrors perfectly at this point.

People with ME/CFS never get better. Long Covid patients (including children) are reporting PEM--which is the hallmark symptom of ME/CFS.

Bill

[Not_a_Number]

20 minutes ago, Galatea said:

I just said it.  Open wounds.  Foreign matter.  Big difference from breathing in tiny particles.

I'm sorry. I'm not following. Are you arguing that the masks don't keep viral particles in? 

[Sdel]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

I'm sorry. I'm not following. Are you arguing that the masks don't keep viral particles in? 

Surgical masks, like the example that is being used, do not....and have historically never been medically rated to claim such.  In health care settings, OTHER types of masks are used when staff are needed to protect against viral infections.

[Spy Car]

47 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I meant real long COVID -- 3+ months of struggling. Have you seen something showing it's more likely than single percent? 

Take a look at Long Covid then take a look at ME/CFS. They appear to medical professionals all over the world to be very similar or the same thing. Same symptoms. both post-viral.

PEM has been a symptom unique to ME/CFS, meaning people get sicker with increased activity. Long Covid patients report having PEM. People with ME/CFS have lifelong debilitating illness with no known cure and a near-zero rate of spontaneous recovery.

Bill

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, Sdel said:

Surgical masks, like the example that is being used, do not....and have historically never been medically rated to claim such.  In health care settings, OTHER types of masks are used when staff are needed to protect against viral infections.

My attempt to dig into this has yielded the fact that we don't actually know that surgical masks help wounds not get infected, lol. Actually, the studies I've just found seemed more positive on them for containing viruses than for preventing infected wounds... 

Fascinating.