CDC removing mask mandate what will you do with dc under 12

[happypamama]

Masking and limited outings for now. We live in an area where people don't mask and don't think covid is a big deal, and I'm not willing to take the risk with my babies until the numbers are down a bit more. So they largely stay home. No playdates at this point, no large group gatherings, no grocery stores.  I did take them to the library a couple of weeks ago; they wore masks (even the 2yo wears a mask quite compliantly), the library has an excellent book quarantine plan, the play areas are closed, and the place was pretty empty. We used sanitizer as soon as we got in the car and washed when we got home. 

 

What I need to do research on is how likely fully vaccinated people 12+ are to bring the illness home to transmit it. I think it's not too terribly likely, but I need to look a bit more before I okay the older kids to go back to martial arts. 

Edited May 14, 2021 by happypamama

[Spy Car]

3 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

You haven't seen/heard "why vax?" if we still have to wear masks anyway? Ok

Only from cretans online who won't mask or vaccine come hell or high water. 

Society needs protection from such people. Desperately.

Forging a vaccine card or evading masking requirements if unvaccinated should be a serious felony.

Bill

 

[prairiewindmomma]

Just now, SKL said:

Why don't we have to mask for any other illness?  Why don't we have to take any precautions for any other illness we're vaccinated for?

Uh, I do.

When we had the measles outbreak in my area two years ago, I stayed the heck out of public areas. I wear masks in the winter, and have since 2009. 
 

If you have had the privilege of being healthy, congrats. 
 

We have already talked about the difference between influenza and covid ad nauseum. I know, because we were arguing these same points a year ago.

[HeartString]

5 minutes ago, kokotg said:

Going back a bit to the talk about how much underreporting there is or isn't in kids....I just noticed today on the Georgia department of health website that the positivity rate for kids right now is more than twice as high as for the general population (8 vs 3.6%). The most likely explanation for that (and maybe the only likely explanation) is that we're missing a higher percentage of cases in kids. I've always had my suspicions about how much higher the incidence rate for teachers is than for students anywhere I've seen that keeps track of both; this would seem to support my suspicions.

I’ve always felt skeptical about the “almost no transmission at school” thing.  The schools are soooo certain that all of their cases are coming from elsewhere and it’s always felt not terribly plausible.

[SKL]

Another thing.  Do you not believe that the vax is a more powerful tool against Covid than an unscientifically-designed, unscientifically-fitted cloth mask?

If the vax is the stronger tool, then don't you want people to get that message?

This wishy-washy mask-while-probably-immune policy is clouding the message that vaxing is more effective than masking.

Edited May 14, 2021 by SKL

[kokotg]

4 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

The only way we could accurately know what actual contraction rates are is if we tested everyone on the regular....which we don’t do, aside from major league sports.

Yes, but the guideline I've seen from the WHO, I think it is, is that a positivity rate of under 5% means you're catching most cases. The higher the positivity rate, the more cases are being missed. I wonder if anyone has looked more deeply at positivity rates across age groups to see if that patterns holds up in other places/times.

[kokotg]

oops--double post

Edited May 14, 2021 by kokotg

[kristin0713]

We're not masking when the mandate is lifted.  My kids are 15 and 13 but DH is still nervous about them getting the vax.   (We are both fully vaxed. I'm working on him for the kids.)

DD is battling intense OCD.  Not so much with germs, but a lot of other contamination fears. I absolutely believe that we cannot require her to wear a mask once the mandate is lifted for her mental health. I cannot have her walking around developing intense fears people who are unmasked.  

 

[Spy Car]

3 minutes ago, SKL said:

Another thing.  Do you not believe that the vax is a more powerful tool against Covid than an unscientifically-designed, unscientifically-fitted cloth mask?

If the vax is the stronger tool, then don't you want people to get that message?

This wishy-washy mask-while-probably-immune policy is clouding the message that vaxing is more effective than masking.

Hysterical. EVERYONE with a brain wants people who can be vaccinated to get vaccinated. There is NO mixed message.

We unfortunately have a serious issue in this country with anti-vax/anti-maskers who don't value human life and who think nothing of putting others at risk.

What's your game?

Bill

 

 

[prairiewindmomma]

I do believe the vaccine is better than the mask.

I also see that roughly half of my state’s eligible adults choose not to be vaccinated. 🤦 How do we keep spaces safe for all children (none of whom are yet fully vaccinated here, based on how things have rolled out in my state) if the adults won’t mask and won’t vaccinate? 
 

[kokotg]

3 minutes ago, SKL said:

Another thing.  Do you not believe that the vax is a more powerful tool against Covid than an unscientifically-designed, unscientifically-fitted cloth mask?

If the vax is the stronger tool, then don't you want people to get that message?

This wishy-washy mask-while-probably-immune policy is clouding the message that vaxing is more effective than masking.

People have said over and over again here that the issue is not vaccinated people not masking, it's unvaccinated people not masking because these new guidelines will essentially give them permission to stop. I think that what you're saying here is the intention behind the new guidelines; my worry is what the actual effects will be. 

[SKL]

1 minute ago, kokotg said:

People have said over and over again here that the issue is not vaccinated people not masking, it's unvaccinated people not masking because these new guidelines will essentially give them permission to stop. I think that what you're saying here is the intention behind the new guidelines; my worry is what the actual effects will be. 

Well then the other thing is, how long will we continue to mask - until we die?  Because that's how long there will be people who won't vax.

[prairiewindmomma]

SKL—I really question your motives here with your line of questioning, especially in light of the past year of anti posts. 

People are irritated with CDC because the mandate dropped too soon. It did send a mixed message that undermined the important of vaccination. I think the proper time to drop indoor masks would be when everyone, including children, has had the opportunity to be vaccinated.

Edited May 14, 2021 by prairiewindmomma

[kokotg]

6 minutes ago, SKL said:

Well then the other thing is, how long will we continue to mask - until we die?  Because that's how long there will be people who won't vax.

I'm perfectly happy to mask in public indoor spaces until everyone has had a chance to be vaccinated, including kids. I do not feel the same obligation toward people who choose not to vaccinate, but we're not there yet. ETA: or until numbers are very low. 30,000+ cases a day is not low.

Edited May 14, 2021 by kokotg

[Junie]

Lifting the mandates too early has been a theme throughout this pandemic.  When the initial shutdown happened, numbers went skyrocketing as the mandates were lifted.  I don't think there are enough people vaccinated to keep the numbers from going up again.

[SKL]

1 minute ago, prairiewindmomma said:

SKL—I really question your motives here with your line of questioning, especially in light of the past year of anti posts.

My posts have not been "anti," I have been questioning what I viewed/view as extremely simplistic or biased conclusions and judgments.  There are costs/risks to every public health policy decision.  There is also no one-size-fits-all answer.  The fervent, simplistic approach I see often on this board is dangerous IMO.  Some of these policies that are so popular here have caused needless deaths.  My "motive" is to try to get some people to think a little bit more.

[kokotg]

10 minutes ago, SKL said:

My posts have not been "anti," I have been questioning what I viewed/view as extremely simplistic or biased conclusions and judgments.  There are costs/risks to every public health policy decision.  There is also no one-size-fits-all answer.  The fervent, simplistic approach I see often on this board is dangerous IMO.  Some of these policies that are so popular here have caused needless deaths.  My "motive" is to try to get some people to think a little bit more.

I’m not sure asking questions like “but don’t you trust the vaccines?” When that’s already been addressed a dozen times can really accomplish your goal.

[KSera]

41 minutes ago, SKL said:

Why don't we have to mask for any other illness?  Why don't we have to take any precautions for any other illness we're vaccinated for?

We’re not seriously back to this, are we? I don’t even believe you that that’s a serious question. You know why this has been different. 

38 minutes ago, HeartString said:

I’ve always felt skeptical about the “almost no transmission at school” thing.  The schools are soooo certain that all of their cases are coming from elsewhere and it’s always felt not terribly plausible.

Most of the epidemiologists I follow agree with you. 

36 minutes ago, SKL said:

Another thing.  Do you not believe that the vax is a more powerful tool against Covid than an unscientifically-designed, unscientifically-fitted cloth mask?

If the vax is the stronger tool, then don't you want people to get that message?

This wishy-washy mask-while-probably-immune policy is clouding the message that vaxing is more effective than masking.

Of course the vaccine is more powerful. But people need to actually be vaccinated for it to do its job. 

22 minutes ago, Junie said:

Lifting the mandates too early has been a theme throughout this pandemic.  When the initial shutdown happened, numbers went skyrocketing as the mandates were lifted.  I don't think there are enough people vaccinated to keep the numbers from going up again.

Exactly. Over and over throughout this pandemic, we make the same mistake. That’s not just the US,  that’s all over the world. Things start to improve, and things get lifted before they have improved to the point that we can lift them without ending up right back where we started. If we could exercise a little more patience, we would get there and not keep having these rebounds.

16 minutes ago, SKL said:

My posts have not been "anti," I have been questioning what I viewed/view as extremely simplistic or biased conclusions and judgments.  There are costs/risks to every public health policy decision.  There is also no one-size-fits-all answer.  The fervent, simplistic approach I see often on this board is dangerous IMO.  Some of these policies that are so popular here have caused needless deaths.  My "motive" is to try to get some people to think a little bit more.

Simplistic conclusions? You mean like “how long do we have to mask?  Until we die?” And “why don’t we have to wear masks for other illnesses?”  What are the popular policies here that have caused needless deaths?

[historically accurate]

27 minutes ago, SKL said:

Another thing.  Do you not believe that the vax is a more powerful tool against Covid than an unscientifically-designed, unscientifically-fitted cloth mask?

If the vax is the stronger tool, then don't you want people to get that message?

This wishy-washy mask-while-probably-immune policy is clouding the message that vaxing is more effective than masking.

I totally believe the vax is the stronger tool. However, as I still have vulnerable people who are both high risk and not able to be vaxxed and/or not fully vaxxed close to me, I will be doing both the vaccine and the mask because the mask has a somewhat protective feature (I use a filtration mask, not a basic cloth mask most days) as well as my being vaccinated. I'm hoping the combo will keep me from carrying a case to those higher-risk, not yet vaxxed people in my life. 

And for the messaging, the people who are anti-vax/anti-mask have used the same complaint before - eg: Popular meme going around my old church: if the mask works, why distance? if the distance works, why use the hand sanitizer? if the hand sanitizer works, why ...? This is just the latest thing in a year long complaint. At this point, I've just about had it up to here with the argument.  

And, for what it's worth, I like my mask - it's cool and hides my RBF that I have most days. 

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, prairiewindmomma said:

 

Look, at some point life will move on. We will make decisions for ourselves. Some can’t or won’t be vaccinated. Got it. But my medically fragile kid who has essentially been home for 14 months and who had hopes of going some places soon and was making shopping lists to do so was just told where she ranked in priorities with some stores. 

All this. 

1 hour ago, KSera said:

Or why can’t the US do even slightly inconvenient  things for the greater good? It’s not like masking is even a really hard thing. Can you imagine if WWII happened with the current US population? We’d be done for. There’s no will for doing hard things or for true patriotism or serving the greater good. Sad 😢. 

Seriously. I keep thinking of Anne Frank and her family. We also read the long, cold winter this year. 

 

1 hour ago, Syllieann said:

 I think the CDC is hoping private entities will implement vaccine passports so that it can be a health issue instead of apolitical issue and I'm all for that.  (Yeah, I know Florida is sol on this one, but at least they can be outside most of the year.)

Ha!!! No one goes outside much during the hot months (most of them). Except swimming. 

50 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

You haven't seen/heard "why vax?" if we still have to wear masks anyway? Ok

And the answer to why masks anyway is we can't trust who is and who isn't vaccinated. 

34 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I do believe the vaccine is better than the mask.

I also see that roughly half of my state’s eligible adults choose not to be vaccinated. 🤦 How do we keep spaces safe for all children (none of whom are yet fully vaccinated here, based on how things have rolled out in my state) if the adults won’t mask and won’t vaccinate? 
 

This. 

31 minutes ago, SKL said:

Well then the other thing is, how long will we continue to mask - until we die?  Because that's how long there will be people who won't vax.

Until everyone, including kids, has access to an effective vaccine. 

[Spy Car]

23 minutes ago, SKL said:

My posts have not been "anti," I have been questioning what I viewed/view as extremely simplistic or biased conclusions and judgments.  There are costs/risks to every public health policy decision.  There is also no one-size-fits-all answer.  The fervent, simplistic approach I see often on this board is dangerous IMO.  Some of these policies that are so popular here have caused needless deaths.  My "motive" is to try to get some people to think a little bit more.

You just suggested that we should have let it rip.

You are being utter disingenuous.

Wanna talk about "dangerous," look in the mirror.

Bill

[LucyStoner]

My younger son is 12 and is set up to get his first shot.  The rest of us are vaccinated already.  Vaccination rates and compliance with Covid restrictions both seem high where I live.  My husband and I both WFH and there have been no cases showing up in the batch testing the schools are doing for hybrid learning (1 son goes 1 morning a week and the other son goes 2 mornings a week).   Of the people I have seen in person or WANT to be seeing soon, vaccination is the norm.  
 

We will still mask in venues where it is required and in large group settings.  I just ordered another large box of masks because I am kinda assuming masking will be more normative in large crowded places during the cold and flu season in the coming year anyway regardless of what happens with Covid over the summer.  I don’t plan to wear a mask in small groups in private homes though.  I was fixing bikes yesterday with a friend and we showed up in masks but we all removed them.  I’m not that worried that people in my orbit will lie and if they do, I still feel quite well protected by being vaccinated.
 

My thinking would be different if we had family members who couldn’t be vaccinated.   
 

I fully expect that we may need boosters.  We will reevaluate as more information comes out.  

Edited May 14, 2021 by LucyStoner

[Penelope]

1 hour ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Having Covid does not provide lasting immunity. I have several friends and there are people on this board who have had covid more than once. 
 

Yes, it does. A few anecdotes don’t prove a lack of immunity, just as a few breakthrough cases don’t mean that vaccines don’t work.

There are many studies showing both long-lasting immunity for most people, and that re-infections are very rare. Another recent study, this one from Israel, shows that infection provides equal immunity to vaccination with Pfizer. https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210426/Prior-SARS-CoV-2-infection-and-Pfizer-BioNTeche28099s-COVID-19-vaccine-provide-similar-immunity.aspx

 

Edit- as the post above this one says, we don’t know how long-lasting either is. But in the immunity studies of people post-infection, apparently the characteristics of that immunity do have every indication of being long-lasting, meaning they are are showing long half-lives like those that occur with other viruses for which immunity lasts a number of years.

 

1 hour ago, bookbard said:

 

What I have noticed is that now when people are sick with colds they are using masks even when they don't legally need to. So good!! I really hope that continues. 

I appreciate this during the past year, but normally, regular exposure to germs that result in only mild disease is thought to likely be a good thing for our immunity. 

1 hour ago, HeartString said:

I’ve always felt skeptical about the “almost no transmission at school” thing.  The schools are soooo certain that all of their cases are coming from elsewhere and it’s always felt not terribly plausible.

But there are so many epidemiological studies, along with worldwide experiences, to back it up. 

-Edit added because it looked like this last part is part of a response to Heartstrings, but it wasn’t meant to be.-

I haven’t liked everything the CDC has done, but I think it’s interesting how the thinking has been “Follow the Science” unless we don’t personally like the science, or unless we think following the science will result in possible negative effects for us personally.

Edited May 14, 2021 by Penelope

[vonfirmath]

1 hour ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

Is Costco lifting their requirement? 

They have already psoted on our local group that our local Costco has removed the mask required signs. Most people are still masking.

[Lucy the Valiant]

7 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

<snip>

I can agree that we don't have good data on natural immunity being long lasting.  We also don't have good data on vax immunity being long lasting.  And we don't have good data on the idea of those with natural immunity providing a significantly higher risk to others than those with vax immunity. 

Good data. A study from Israel (>300,000 people) is very encouraging for "long" immunity from natural infection (as long as we have been able to measure so far). 

The thousands (millions) of people walking around immune (some of them children, no doubt) are often not considered in public discussion. I have family members testing positive for antibodies 10 months post-infection.

 

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210426/Prior-SARS-CoV-2-infection-and-Pfizer-BioNTeche28099s-COVID-19-vaccine-provide-similar-immunity.aspx

 

[Terabith]

56 minutes ago, SKL said:

Well then the other thing is, how long will we continue to mask - until we die?  Because that's how long there will be people who won't vax.

Asking honestly....what would the big harm in this be?  I mean, shutdowns are an onerous thing, but I don't see masking in most scenarios as being a big deal.  No more than other things that we accept as socially normative in public, like pants.  

I like the image of covid prevention as a series of slices of swiss cheese.  We need a multi layered strategy to prevent cases:  vaccination AND masks AND outdoor events when possible AND social distancing when it's feasible.  

Do we know how well the vaccines protect against the Indian variant?  That feels like another layer of Russian roulette here.  

[Spy Car]

10 minutes ago, Penelope said:

I haven’t liked everything the CDC has done, but I think it’s interesting how the thinking has been “Follow the Science” unless we don’t personally like the science, or unless we think following the science will result in possible negative effects for us personally.

Repeating a canard doesn't make it true, not matter what one source of Covid misinformation may claim to the contrary.

Please stop the with the intellectual dishonesty. This canard has been debunked numerous times today.

Bill

 

 

[bookbard]

12 minutes ago, Penelope said:

I appreciate this during the past year, but normally, regular exposure to germs that result in only mild disease is thought to likely be a good thing for our immunity. 

And that's why masking is good - because you get a far lower level of germs (it doesn't 100% prevent the germs). So you can get the immunity without getting the horrible chest infection. 

[AbcdeDooDah]

11 minutes ago, Lucy the Valiant said:

Good data. A study from Israel (>300,000 people) is very encouraging for "long" immunity from natural infection (as long as we have been able to measure so far). 

The thousands (millions) of people walking around immune (some of them children, no doubt) are often not considered in public discussion. I have family members testing positive for antibodies 10 months post-infection.

 

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210426/Prior-SARS-CoV-2-infection-and-Pfizer-BioNTeche28099s-COVID-19-vaccine-provide-similar-immunity.aspx

 

Yes. My sister is many months out and still testing + for antibodies. Those with previous infection contribute to herd immunity.

[Penelope]

11 minutes ago, bookbard said:

And that's why masking is good - because you get a far lower level of germs (it doesn't 100% prevent the germs). So you can get the immunity without getting the horrible chest infection. 

That is a hypothesis. Maybe someone will study it one day.

[AbcdeDooDah]

What do you all think of the head of the WHO now calling vaccinating children in rich nations while other nations go without a “moral catastrophe?”

[HeartString]

1 minute ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

What do you all think of the head of the WHO now calling vaccinating children in rich nations while other nations go without a “moral catastrophe?”

I tend to agree. I understand all of the reason for why we aren’t/can’t, but vaccinating low risk 12-30 year old here while people die in droves in India is a planetary moral failing. But there is no over arching body to redirect things in the wisest, most efficient way.  

[Syllieann]

9 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

What do you all think of the head of the WHO now calling vaccinating children in rich nations while other nations go without a “moral catastrophe?”

I agree.  I'd like to see the high risk kids who are eligible vaccinated, but I think the greater good for everyone, and possibly even America, would be to send those vaccines to older populations.  I think the infrastructure is a bigger stumbling block than whether we are willing to give them away.  As such, foregoing vaccinating our kids probably won't help them much.

Edited May 14, 2021 by Syllieann

[Penelope]

32 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Repeating a canard doesn't make it true, not matter what one source of Covid misinformation may claim to the contrary.

Please stop the with the intellectual dishonesty. This canard has been debunked numerous times today.

Bill

 

 

LOL. Go pick on some antivaxxers. 
 

I hold my opinion that it is sometimes true. I wasn’t referring primarily to this forum. People all over have said they think the CDC is wrong in this recent decision. For most of a year, many said said opening schools was wrong, contrary to what we were told the science said. Many fought masks, despite science strongly leaning that way. I grumbled plenty about some of the advice that came out, even though I followed it in the instances it applied to me. 

[SKL]

18 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

What do you all think of the head of the WHO now calling vaccinating children in rich nations while other nations go without a “moral catastrophe?”

Clearly it is more moral to vaccinate seriously at-risk people [those who are not too fragile to withstand vaccine side effects] than young, otherwise healthy children.

That said, I believe they need to develop a whole new vaccine for kids, and maybe another for fragile older people.  The latter should be a higher priority, and I'm not sure why it isn't.

[SKL]

19 minutes ago, HeartString said:

I tend to agree. I understand all of the reason for why we aren’t/can’t, but vaccinating low risk 12-30 year old here while people die in droves in India is a planetary moral failing. But there is no over arching body to redirect things in the wisest, most efficient way.  

I'm not sure how it works, but I don't think the mRNA vaccines are allowed to be used in most other countries right now, and not because of US rules.  Hopefully they can fix that.

[frogger]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

 

That said, I believe they need to develop a whole new vaccine for kids, and maybe another for fragile older people.  The latter should be a higher priority, and I'm not sure why it isn't.

I completely understand your first paragraph but am baffled by the second one. Why would you need a whole new vaccine for kids if this one is working so well? I know they haven't finished trials. What evidence says a different one needs developed?

[HeartString]

3 minutes ago, SKL said:

I'm not sure how it works, but I don't think the mRNA vaccines are allowed to be used in most other countries right now, and not because of US rules.  Hopefully they can fix that.

I have literally never heard that.  It’s a contract and patent law issue.  Do you have a link showing that? 

[Lucy the Valiant]

10 minutes ago, SKL said:

I'm not sure how it works, but I don't think the mRNA vaccines are allowed to be used in most other countries right now, and not because of US rules.  Hopefully they can fix that.

My family members living in west Africa report that although the (rural) people are afraid of covid, they are TERRIFIED of the vaccines. They live with so many scary things that "Sars-Cov-2" carries a very different meaning to them than it does to us in the USA. I realize there are a lot of layers of that.

[Spy Car]

8 minutes ago, Penelope said:

LOL. Go pick on some antivaxxers. 
 

I hold my opinion that it is sometimes true. I wasn’t referring primarily to this forum. People all over have said they think the CDC is wrong in this recent decision. For most of a year, many said said opening schools was wrong, contrary to what we were told the science said. Many fought masks, despite science strongly leaning that way. I grumbled plenty about some of the advice that came out, even though I followed it in the instances it applied to me. 

CDC is wrong on the unintended public policy problems their decision will create, they not wrong on the science that fully vaccinated people are at low risk of getting sick or spreading illness. Unfortunately anti-maskers/anti-vaxers will use this as an excuse to spread harm.

You know this, yet to attempt to perpetuate a canard that's been debunked multiple times in recent pages on this thread. Gets really old.

Bill

 

 

[wathe]

8 minutes ago, SKL said:

I'm not sure how it works, but I don't think the mRNA vaccines are allowed to be used in most other countries right now, and not because of US rules.  Hopefully they can fix that.

I don't think so.  As per NYT, Pfizer is being used in 97 countries, more than any other vaccine except AstraZeneca

[HeartString]

4 minutes ago, Lucy the Valiant said:

My family members living in west Africa report that although the (rural) people are afraid of covid, they are TERRIFIED of the vaccines. They live with so many scary things that "Sars-Cov-2" carries a very different meaning to them than it does to us in the USA. I realize there are a lot of layers of that.

Is that the same area where Ebola crops up?  The rural people in the area of Ebola seem terrified of western medicine in general.  

[SKL]

22 minutes ago, frogger said:

I completely understand your first paragraph but am baffled by the second one. Why would you need a whole new vaccine for kids if this one is working so well? I know they haven't finished trials. What evidence says a different one needs developed?

For one thing, research shows that the way kids' bodies fight Covid is completely different from the way adults' bodies fight it.  (I don't have a ready link but it's out there.)  And even if they do use the same one as for adults, the amount needs to be adjusted, and that will take more research.

ETA a quick google search will bring up many articles about how kid's immune systems address Covid differently from adults'.

Edited May 15, 2021 by SKL

[SKL]

8 minutes ago, wathe said:

I don't think so.  As per NYT, Pfizer is being used in 97 countries, more than any other vaccine except AstraZeneca

OK good, 97 is about half of the counties, but it's not approved in many, including some with very large populations.

Edited May 15, 2021 by SKL

[Lucy the Valiant]

7 minutes ago, HeartString said:

Is that the same area where Ebola crops up?  The rural people in the area of Ebola seem terrified of western medicine in general.  

Not quite that far west - my family members staff a western medicine style hospital that is actually extremely popular with the local people. The layers of trust / mistrust and what is moral are . . . certainly complex when crossing that many barriers. 

[HeartString]

16 minutes ago, SKL said:

For one thing, research shows that the way kids' bodies fight Covid is completely different from the way adults' bodies fight it.  (I don't have a ready link but it's out there.)  And even if they do use the same one as for adults, the amount needs to be adjusted, and that will take more research.

ETA a quick google search will bring up many articles about how kid's immune systems address Covid differently from adults'.

One of the things they are testing in the under 12s is dose strength.  It’s one reason why that study is taking so long.  

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

53 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

What do you all think of the head of the WHO now calling vaccinating children in rich nations while other nations go without a “moral catastrophe?”

I completely agree. Wealthy nations like ours hoarding vaccine to vaccinate low risk populations while impoverished nations have people dying in the streets due to lack of vaccine is immoral and unethical. I’m all for vaccinating high risk people of all ages in wealthier nations. I also support continuing our research on lower age groups so that the at risk in those groups can receive a vaccine as soon as it’s proven safe. But I don’t agree with vaccinating younger people with no risk factors while poor countries have nothing. 97% of deaths in this country are in ages 45+ (according to our governor yesterday). We could end this pandemic worldwide so much faster if we sent vaccine to places like India rather than vaccinating those under 30 or 40 in our country (those younger and at high risk excepted of course, and maybe even those who share a household with them). We should be be sending vaccine to hard hit and poor countries where the healthcare systems are crumbling instead of vaccinating our healthy teenagers and young adults. 

[Spy Car]

While children are at a relatively low risk of dying from Covid, it seems like they are a very significant risk of contracting Long Covid or having other lingering illnesses.

If Long Covid turns out to be the same (or similar) to ME/CFS (another post-viral illness which long Covid strongly resembles in terms of symptoms), then those afflicted are likely to face a lifetime of debilitating illness with no currently effective treatment or cure to offer hope.

Those who believe children face no risks from contracting Covid could not be more wrong.

Bill

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7927578/

A SERIOUS picture is emerging about the long-term health effects of covid-19 in some children, with UK politicians calling the lack of acknowledgment of the problem a “national scandal”.

Children seem to be fairly well-protected from the most severe symptoms of covid-19. According to the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control, the majority of children don't develop symptoms when infected with the coronavirus, or their symptoms are very mild.

However, it is becoming increasingly apparent that a large number of children with symptomatic and asymptomatic covid-19 are experiencing long-term effects, many months after the initial infection.

Symptoms of long covid were first thought to include fatigue, muscle and joint pain, headache, insomnia, respiratory problems and heart palpitations. Now, support groups and researchers say there may be up to 100 other symptoms, including gastrointestinal problems, nausea, dizziness, seizures, hallucinations and testicular pain.

[Terabith]

A little girl I taught in preschool, who is now 8, caught covid and had minor symptoms but afterwards lost the ability to walk.  That seems like a pretty major thing.  

[KungFuPanda]

10 hours ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

Also, I keep seeing that some will keep the masks on their kids to protect them. All along it's been said that masks are to  protect other people.

The social contract is that ALL unvaccinated people wear them and protect each other.  Also, you can do both.  You don't know if your kid is an asymptomatic spreader or if they will fall ill the next day, so you mask up and hope everyone else does the same.

8 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Gotta wonder if all those saying that masks don't prevent people from spreading disease/droplets/infection would be fine with their surgeon not wearing a surgical mask when operating on them? 

I don't know why the "If you're scared, stay home" crowd never translated this advice to those who fear the vaccine.

 

5 hours ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

So e vaccinated are more than ready to shed the masks so that won't happen. 

At the beginning people here were happy with the CDC recommendations and said we should all follow CDC guidelines. Scoffing at those who  think they know better than the CDC.

The guidelines still require masks for the unvaccinated.  There's just not a ton of trust that people will follow the guidelines if they haven't taken them seriously all along.

5 hours ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

They were most likely not wearing mask already anyway. Costco is the only store I've seen absolutely refuse service to those without a mask.

I can't even remember the last time I saw a face in a store.  I live in an area where masking is taken very seriously and only babies in diapers aren't wearing them.  Stores don't have to enforce it.  The social pressure is there.  If you mask slips, you'll fix it so you don't have to hear twelve people inform you that it slipped.

3 hours ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

You haven't seen/heard "why vax?" if we still have to wear masks anyway? Ok

I have only heard this on this board.  I haven't heard a single person say this in my area.

3 hours ago, SKL said:

Why don't we have to mask for any other illness?  Why don't we have to take any precautions for any other illness we're vaccinated for?

This is the first pandemic I've experienced in my lifetime.  We don't really have an exact protocol in place so I think we have to be a bit understanding about some of the finer details.  I bet it'll be more socially acceptable to mask when we're sick from now on; especially since nobody got the flu this year.  

 

3 hours ago, SKL said:

Another thing.  Do you not believe that the vax is a more powerful tool against Covid than an unscientifically-designed, unscientifically-fitted cloth mask?

If the vax is the stronger tool, then don't you want people to get that message?

This wishy-washy mask-while-probably-immune policy is clouding the message that vaxing is more effective than masking.

I've seen an abundance of serious masks in my area.  People are not playing.  As soon as the N9s were back in stock, people were wearing them.  Often people double mask in stores.  You're not even allowed to just wear a gaiter or bandana here.  It has to be a real mask and if you don't have one, the stores will give you one, but there's no such thing as walking around without.  Of course we see some ill-fitting masks, but people are literally putting their money where their mouth is and investing in better masks around here.

2 hours ago, kristin0713 said:

We're not masking when the mandate is lifted.  My kids are 15 and 13 but DH is still nervous about them getting the vax.   (We are both fully vaxed. I'm working on him for the kids.)

DD is battling intense OCD.  Not so much with germs, but a lot of other contamination fears. I absolutely believe that we cannot require her to wear a mask once the mandate is lifted for her mental health. I cannot have her walking around developing intense fears people who are unmasked.  

 

Wouldn't getting the vaccine go a long way towards alleviating your daughter's fears?  It seems like she could see some physical and psychological benefits that outweigh the risks.