Help Me Brainstorm Strategies to Help My Teen Girl Deal with Unwanted Male Attention

[Jean in Newcastle]

4 minutes ago, Chelli said:

This is super helpful guys!

You are giving me lots of good things to talk to her about and work with her through role play.

Unfortunately, other than the high school incident last week, all of her interactions have been with men in their 20's and 30's. In their defense, she does look like she could be in her 20's as well. In fact, people have thought she's her three year old cousin's and her eight year old brother's mom before. I thought about having her mention how old she is when older men are harassing her, but then I thought that might not be a wise idea for them to know her age. Thoughts?

Also, as a pp mentioned earlier in this thread, my biggest problem with the entire thing is how she's going to have to change her personality when she's out and about in public. She's normally an extroverted, fun, out-going teen, and I feel awful that I'm going to coach her through how to hide those things when out in the general public.

 

“I am a minor. It isn’t appropriate for you to be trying to pick me up”. 

[Liz CA]

2 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

Ya know, I may be alone in this, but I’m getting the sense that some folks think Chelli’s daughter has done something wrong by reacting this or that way, walking too slow, talking too much, not talking enough, playing a game in public. None of these things invite or excuse inappropriate male behavior. The problem isn’t Chelli’s  DD, and I think we have to be very careful, while recognizing that it is her obligation to address these issues in the best way she can, not to make her responsible for them.

 

This is true. She has not done anything wrong. I think we are just trying to offer up some tools and everyone has a slightly different take on this.

[unsinkable]

Did anyone watch LivePD this weekend? Where the 50+ year old guy commented on the 14 yo girl's breasts and grabbed at them AFTER she said she was 14?

He was arrested for ....don't remember exactly the charge...sexual battery?... But when they went back to the hosts, they were horrified at the whole situation, including his comments. One said, something like the comments themselves while not illegal were immoral. He might not have used that word, but it was along those lines. These are 3 men in their 50s.

Edited October 4, 2018 by unsinkable

[Liz CA]

6 minutes ago, Chelli said:

This is super helpful guys!

You are giving me lots of good things to talk to her about and work with her through role play.

Unfortunately, other than the high school incident last week, all of her interactions have been with men in their 20's and 30's. In their defense, she does look like she could be in her 20's as well. In fact, people have thought she's her three year old cousin's and her eight year old brother's mom before. I thought about having her mention how old she is when older men are harassing her, but then I thought that might not be a wise idea for them to know her age. Thoughts?

Also, as a pp mentioned earlier in this thread, my biggest problem with the entire thing is how she's going to have to change her personality when she's out and about in public. She's normally an extroverted, fun, out-going teen, and I feel awful that I'm going to coach her through how to hide those things when out in the general public.

 

 

I think Gardenmom mentioned that she does not need to walk around with a scowl on her face all the time. I think I would still encourage her to be herself but when someone is out of line, then deliver the stare and warn him off. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Only a perv will not back off if someone says that they are a minor. Other men might make an honest initial mistake and try to chat her up but should immediately apologize and back off when told that she’s too young. 

[TABmom]

If it were my daughter, I would practice responses like "I am not interested in talking. Leave me alone." If the guy persists, "I asked you once to leave me alone, if you do not, I will (get the librarian, teacher, call the police, etc. depending on the setting.)"  That would be for guys making unwanted conversation. Anyone making a sexual comment or touching her, I would tell her to say loudly " That is sexual harassment. Leave me alone. " I would practice with her, maybe role play  with a friend, emphasizing that she speaks loudly enough for bystanders to hear. That would make most guys back off and I know if I heard a girl/woman say that, I would make sure she was safe. 

I'd also look for self defense classes or martial arts training. 

 

[MysteryJen]

I am sorry that she is dealing with this. One thing my dd2 said is that when she wears her high school spirit stuff like t shirts, letter jacket, etc. she gets very, very few catcalls from older guys. More if they think she is in college.

So that might help a little. And dd2's line of "Dude, I am in high school. How gross are you?" accompanied by her resting b**** face has worked pretty well. She says she usually gets a stammered apology.

[TravelingChris]

Yes, about using it in more than just sexual harassment areas.  I use the stony hard look with criminals who were trying to steal shopping bags from customers.  They didn't try with me and I got Christmas shopping done.

[prairiewindmomma]

We've lived in a few different places, and there are definitely some parts of the country where we've had more issues than others.  Texas was the absolute worst. My dd has long blonde hair and as a THIRD GRADER she was getting catcalled and harassed, especially if her hair was down and curled. The lack of respect towards women was actually one of the cultural things that made us want to move.   I'm not sure where you're at, Chelli, but I wanted to mention to others that there are vast regional differences in experience.

We've had discussions with our kids about our demeanor in public---and the standoffish RBF is a grim and necessary facade for interacting in public in some places. There's a difference in mindset between hiding your personality and setting boundaries.  Normally, RBF plus holding your keychain with pepper spray is enough, but we have had a couple of run-ins with my dd where it was clear that she was being targeted by a predator.  When we reported it to the store security (at HEB, for Texans!!), she was not the only one who had been targeted. ? 

Does she have a smart phone? Can she FaceTime you when she's in that kind of situation if she is by herself?  

[Murphy101]

15 hours ago, Barb_ said:

My oldest has taught my other ones to develop a “don’t fu*k with me” face. Look unapproachable. Walk purposefully, chin up, brows furrowed like you have places to go and will punch the first person who says something to you. Don’t ignore. Make eye contact and scowl. Have some one liners all ready to be deployed. Teach her to take back her power. 

I’m sorry, it really sucks.

 

Honestly this is just how it has to be. It’s not fair and for the more sweet natured,  it’s really difficult to overcome their innate niceness.  But sadly it’s in their best interests to do this.  It is not about necessarily thinking it will make them stop - it’s about learning that evidence matters. Voicing her problem, making sure to leave a paper trail, and standing up for herself. Should a gal have to worry about that? Does not doing that make those behaviors okay or excusable?  Not at all.  But it does cause problems for guys like that and negative feedback is good for negative behaviors.

However, I’d be furious about that while on high school/college/work property. It should be reported and none of that oh yeah you know how kids are bullshirt. I’d encourage her to wear a camera and post what it’s like to attend her school to make the school more proactive about not tolerating harassment on school grounds or at school events.

Also. I don’t think this has anything to do with how pretty she is. Sure that probably doesn’t help but males being jerks isn’t about how pretty she is. 

[cintinative]

I just wanted to say, I am so sorry she has to deal with this.

I am so sad to say that my first thought went immediately to her protecting herself. I really do hope most of these guys are harmless. But I have heard so many heartbreaking stories, including those of people we thought we could trust.  It breaks my heart that my first thought is that she is unsafe. 

Definitely 1) have a charged cell phone 2) get the self-defense training 3) consider pepper spray 4) buddy up, especially when walking distances and when she gets a license, consider asking a security guard/worker to walk her to the car if there is an incident. 

A few people on here have mentioned the book The Gift of Fear.  I have not personally read it, but I had an experience in which I felt very unsafe with someone I had known awhile in college and needed to rethink my walking path and destination.  I did not know it at the time, but the person had a sort of mental breakdown before and was in fact very unstable.  So we really do need to listen when we have those internal warnings. 

[maize]

38 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 

And by the way, you've taken bait if you beleive they really think she is the mother of an eight year old.  That's a flattering line intended to get her to lower her guard, but its a mixed message stating they think she's a single mom and therefore available for just the right man, such as themselves.

 

Some teenage girls can easily pass as adults. People (women) thought I was my five year old sister's mother when I was 13.

[Pen]

1 hour ago, Chelli said:

nfortunately, other than the high school incident last week, all of her interactions have been with men in their 20's and 30's. In their defense, she does look like she could be in her 20's as well. In fact, people have thought she's her three year old cousin's and her eight year old brother's mom before. I thought about having her mention how old she is when older men are harassing her, but then I thought that might not be a wise idea for them to know her age. Thoughts?

 

Particularly in a public place like a library, I would have her say her age. Yes.  

*Loudly* so others around can hear.

instead of I’m busy, leave me alone 

 

”I’m 15.  You are being inappropriate. Leave me alone.”

 

Im not sure in event of being alone. I was in New York City at that age.  Ideal was not to be alone in the first place. But if so, it was to move fast and not interact with others at all.  And that generally applied to the teen boys as well as the girls. 

 

What other locations have these incidents been happening besides library library and the school?

Edited October 4, 2018 by Pen

[Pen]

Our libraries have teen areas where adults are not supposed to go except for a parent at the side of own child. Does your library have such a section and was your dd there?

If it doesn’t have a teen section it might be worth talking to the library management about. 

Or if no teen section your dd may be better off getting what she needs quickly and then taking it to children section. 

[prairiewindmomma]

I'm with HeighHo.  I think most pervs target teens because they lack confidence and experience in dealing with harassment. She needs to look like she would raise h#ll and potentially drop/cut/shoot the guy if he messed with her. 

We live in a misogynistic culture that lauds the objectification and degradation of women in popular culture.  Like, seriously, we're messed up as a society in terms of what we listen to, what we watch, and what we think is appropriate.  Even the language we use is messed up.... "1000 girls were harassed" rather than "men harassed 1000 girls".... 

[prairiewindmomma]

15 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

I was in New York City at that age.  Ideal was not to be alone in the first place. But if so, it was to move fast and not interact with others at all.  And that generally applied to the teen boys as well as the girls. 

This is a good point. 

Chelli, has she traveled much at all? Like, could you swing a trip to NYC or SF or some other big city with public transport and have her observe how everyone just walls off from each other? I've been taking dd out on the commuter train and on some buses to work on her large city manuevering skills---avoiding pick pockets, dealing with mentally ill people, and just being mentally aware of all of your surroundings, including what's behind you. It's a skill.   That skill transfer down to rural areas also, but in a place where everyone is casual and knows each other, it can be hard to practice setting up those boundaries with your demeanor.

[Teacher Mom]

I lived this as a teenager. The only thing I can recommend is the mentioned self-defense classes. The only comeback that ever seem to work was: Would you say that to your mother? Would you say that to your daughter? depending on the age of the guy.

What really helped me was my family and friends praising me for things other than looks -- being nice, getting good grades, etc. It made me see myself as something other than just the "outside". Unfortunately, my answer to all the attention was to gain a lot of weight. My daughter has gone the same route. I wish I would have gotten her a counselor because it is very much an issue that destroyed a huge segment of both our lives. My best wishes to both of you.

[Garga]

I rarely get hit on as I am of average looks, so I'm not the sort of person that would get hit on a lot.  But whenever I do (rarely) get hit on, I tend to get super cold.  That's because I'm really, really scared.  So, I give barely any eye contact and basically just grunt at the person.  

Like, for the exchange at the library, if the person asked me about the game, I'd have grunted an "uh huh".  And after that, if he told me his name, I'd have just sort of given him a sickly smile, without eye contact and wouldn't have spoken to him at all.  

That's basically like what everyone else has been saying: go cold.  No conversation.  ETA: This probably works well for me, because of my average looks. But it's a starting point I suppose, even for someone who is beautiful.

It sounds miserable for your dd.  I've felt a little bad in the past wondering why no one hits on me (am I ugly??), but when I think about it I wouldn't want the attention.  And when I do get attention, I hate it and shut down.  It scares me.  I am sorry that your dd has to deal with this, especially so young.

Edited October 4, 2018 by Garga

[Jean in Newcastle]

45 minutes ago, OKBud said:

I hate to break it to y'all but saying "I am underage" is going to get plenty of creepers going. 

Though I take the point that naming [part of] the problem with what they are doing out loud is often a helpful tactic, and agree. 

But then you have concrete proof that they are a creeper.

A librarian who just hears that someone was making what could be construed at first as small talk with someone  who looks old enough isn’t going to ask the guy to leave.   A librarian who hears that you told someone older to back off because you are a minor and they kept pursuing you is going to treat the situation with the gravity it deserves. 

[Mergath]

Blood capsules? 

https://www.shemazing.net/this-womans-unbelievable-response-to-catcalling-is-going-completely-viral/

My dd is ten and has already been smiled and winked at (in a creepy manner) by a guy working at Walmart, so while I laugh at the story in this link, I'm also half-considering picking up some extra blood capsules this Halloween.

[Pen]

1 hour ago, OKBud said:

I hate to break it to y'all but saying "I am underage" is going to get plenty of creepers going. 

Though I take the point that naming [part of] the problem with what they are doing out loud is often a helpful tactic, and agree. 

 

It may help with a non-creep who thinks she is an adult.   The conversation in library wasn’t clearly perv creepy as it started and if dd had been 20yo. Once it got to dirty movies it was regardless of age. 

But a few guys who aren’t pedophiles may be successfully warned off by stating age. 

The bigger reason in a public place with others around is to get attention from other people.

You can’t reasonably go direct from

man “Hi, My name is Joe “ to a scream,

but you can go direct to a loud “I’m only 15 leave me alone.”  rather than a polite “nice to meet you. “. She did not feel it was nice to meet him. People around should have been being let know that an adult man is hitting on an underage girl.  At that point if he does not desist, she can move to scream level.  

Think about the difference if it became a police or court matter in terms of what she has said in regard to letting people around know that she is a child, not the effect on a perp. A perp won’t stop. But clarity as to both age and saying an unequivocal leave me alone for the hearing of not only the man but security guards, library staff, other patrons, whoever might be there, might help as compared to “nice to meet you” and “I didn’t throw it at you.”  

[Pen]

Adding:

Or think about the difference in description that a bystander might give police ...

A person who appears to be an adult woman is approached by a man....

he says:

she says: 

 

What should she say so that bystanders clearly k ow there is a problem?

that is what girl should be saying. 

[SereneHome]

If this was my child, there would be two things that I would want her to master - completely ignoring those men and getting really really REALLY good at self defense for when ignoring doesn't work.

Oh and I did like Ktgrok's suggestion of start taping guys, although I am pretty paranoid about people and I live in New England where everyone has a gun, so I might be worried about escalation.

[Pen]

1 minute ago, OKBud said:

I'm old enough to not give a shit about what I can "reasonably" do. Though I am sure OP's daughter does. 

 

That’s a good point. If OP’s dd felt threatened immediately, she could actually have started by screaming and if later on situation turned out to ha e been innocuous she could apologize. 

She could also now start by going to librarian first thing, explaining prior harassment, and seating herself as near as possible to library staff. Or to her mom if her mom is there. 

[Pen]

2 minutes ago, OKBud said:

 

FIRE! FIRE!

 

https://www.justyellfire.com/index.php

 

Because most people DGAF

 

Bad idea. Imo. Possibly illegal and likely to cause trouble. 

 

[Mommyof1]

With public situations have her state LOUDLY she is jail bait (a term from my youth) or whatever term you use and POINT AND SHOUT PERVERT.  That will get a lot of  attention. The guys usually leave pretty quick. A favorite move a friend of mine used.

I have known people to do the above at school. 

Me in high school if a guy was trying to grab my body I hit him with my purse. If they were making crude comments near me he got the purse plus all were given the complimentary death glare. Not sure hitting would pass now days though but in a dangerous situation all bets are off.

My niece said they were told they couldnt hit at school. So yelling pervert is what she used

Remind her not all guys behave that way. There are good guys out there. I meet them and married one.

 

Edited October 4, 2018 by Mommyof1

[LMD]

3 hours ago, cintinative said:

I just wanted to say, I am so sorry she has to deal with this.

I am so sad to say that my first thought went immediately to her protecting herself. I really do hope most of these guys are harmless. But I have heard so many heartbreaking stories, including those of people we thought we could trust.  It breaks my heart that my first thought is that she is unsafe. 

Definitely 1) have a charged cell phone 2) get the self-defense training 3) consider pepper spray 4) buddy up, especially when walking distances and when she gets a license, consider asking a security guard/worker to walk her to the car if there is an incident. 

A few people on here have mentioned the book The Gift of Fear.  I have not personally read it, but I had an experience in which I felt very unsafe with someone I had known awhile in college and needed to rethink my walking path and destination.  I did not know it at the time, but the person had a sort of mental breakdown before and was in fact very unstable.  So we really do need to listen when we have those internal warnings. 

I didn't want to say it and add to Chelli's fear, but yeah. This. To some men a cold response is as a red rag to a bull. 

It's the 6th rule of misogyny. She's trying to go about her life like every other human. Misogynists just see her as being female at them therefore they are entitled to her attention.

I know that I'm banging on about this somewhat, but she needs to know that she is absolutely right to feel angry and fatigued by this. That is a normal and healthy response to being dehumanized every time you leave the house. It's not flattering, they're not doing it because they like her - they're doing it because they hate her. They've trained themselves to hate women through porn. Misogyny and dehumanization is a manifestation of hate - a response to a thwarting of their entitlement to our daughters' time, attention, deference, performance, body parts...

I absolutely believe that men are worse now, violent porn is ubiquitous and many men (and boys) are addicted. This is the lens they see the world through.

I love the blood capsules hahaha! Brilliant! 

 

[Pen]

14 minutes ago, OKBud said:

 

But what about when she's not at the library or at school or near her mother? 

You see? 

 

I asked what other places were involved but OP didn’t answer sfaik 

 

Different situations need to be thought out. 

And it also can be very different in different geographical areas.  

If this were my dd I’d want her to have self defense lessons and a much better track record managing relatively safe spots with mom near before moving to situations where she has less safety back up. 

[Ausmumof3]

8 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

Ya know, I may be alone in this, but I’m getting the sense that some folks think Chelli’s daughter has done something wrong by reacting this or that way, walking too slow, talking too much, not talking enough, playing a game in public. None of these things invite or excuse inappropriate male behavior. The problem isn’t Chelli’s  DD, and I think we have to be very careful, while recognizing that it is her obligation to address these issues in the best way she can, not to make her responsible for them.

I was hesitant to post what I did because I was afraid it would be interpreted that way.  I absolutely don’t think she did anything wrong in the library or any situation.  She was friendly and polite and creeper took it as an invitation to be a creeper.  Or possibly he would have been a creeper without any response.  But Chelli is asking what she can do and my comment was only aimed at that.  Providing an option to hopefully shut things down more quickly!  Not that she did anything wrong in any way!

think of it as a “here’s what to do if someone is snatching your handbag” not a “wow you just be so stupid if someone could just snatch your handbag” comment.

 

[Sneezyone]

7 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I was hesitant to post what I did because I was afraid it would be interpreted that way.  I absolutely don’t think she did anything wrong in the library or any situation.  She was friendly and polite and creeper took it as an invitation to be a creeper.  Or possibly he would have been a creeper without any response.  But Chelli is asking what she can do and my comment was only aimed at that.  Providing an option to hopefully shut things down more quickly!  Not that she did anything wrong in any way!

think of it as a “here’s what to do if someone is snatching your handbag” not a “wow you just be so stupid if someone could just snatch your handbag” comment.

 

 

I understood that. I just also think there's risk in thinking that women control or decide how these interactions will go based on what they do or don't say, do or don't do. 

[Ausmumof3]

Also I just wanted to add, although my experience might be different from your dd as I was only average pretty not drop dead gorgeous, but this stuff peaks around 15-17 and then drops off.  It’s like the creeps are expert at identifying kids at that vulnerable stage where they aren’t going to be confident enough to call out the behaviour and are still sorting out normal friendliness from creepiness.  So hopefully it will drop off a little anyway.

[Ausmumof3]

42 minutes ago, LMD said:

I didn't want to say it and add to Chelli's fear, but yeah. This. To some men a cold response is as a red rag to a bull. 

It's the 6th rule of misogyny. She's trying to go about her life like every other human. Misogynists just see her as being female at them therefore they are entitled to her attention.

I know that I'm banging on about this somewhat, but she needs to know that she is absolutely right to feel angry and fatigued by this. That is a normal and healthy response to being dehumanized every time you leave the house. It's not flattering, they're not doing it because they like her - they're doing it because they hate her. They've trained themselves to hate women through porn. Misogyny and dehumanization is a manifestation of hate - a response to a thwarting of their entitlement to our daughters' time, attention, deference, performance, body parts...

I absolutely believe that men are worse now, violent porn is ubiquitous and many men (and boys) are addicted. This is the lens they see the world through.

I love the blood capsules hahaha! Brilliant! 

 

I liked this post but it also makes me want to cry.  I actually believe this could destroy our society completely if something doesn’t change.  

[LMD]

23 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I liked this post but it also makes me want to cry.  I actually believe this could destroy our society completely if something doesn’t change.  

I'm sorry, I understand. Sometimes I wish I could unsee it. But women are strong, we haven't been crushed yet.

[happi duck]

15 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

yes - she gave him way too much time.   I agree with a pp that playing a game on a public computer (and the library is public) isn't the wisest choice for anyone.  

however - I wouldn't tell her she has to get up and move.   I would advise her to tell him she has zero interest in what he is selling and to leave her alone.  (that is her only line - after that, she needs to be done.) be definitive. she also needs to learn "the hard stare", because she needs to say it like she *means* it!   that isn't a perpetual hard look, that is one delivered just for him.   if he says one more word to other (other than the equivalent of bye while he walks off) - she moves to step two:

telling him she will be contacting the librarian NOW, the police, etc.   pull out a whistle from her pocket and blow it. (again with the hard stare)  that will get everyone in the library looking at them - and HE won't want that kind of attention.

 

another thought i had about how to handle the ones who come up to her . . . look them up and down (like she's checking them out), and saying "you think I would want to anywhere with you?" (it matters how the line is delivered, - it needs to sound derisive)  (she could even end it with 'you can leave now")  then start laughing uproariously (and don't stop)

To me, this last paragraph feels dangerous if said to an especially unbalanced person.

Op, sorry your dd has to deal with this.

[Carrie12345]

She should use her age if that makes her feel better.  However, that isn't going to bother some men, and it isn't going to always be the truth.  Not that there's anything wrong with lying in this case; I'm just pointing out that some day she's going to be 21, and I don't think we will have fixed men by then.

I would recommend not being polite anymore.  A stranger who walks up and asks if she knows the wifi password or where the periodicals section is might be worthy of a polite answer to the specific question.  A stranger trying to "chat her up", whether creepy or innocent, doesn't obligate her to be nice.  "Leave me alone" is a completely reasonable response.  "This creep is making me uncomfortable. Can someone help me?" is a completely reasonable thing to say/shout for other people to hear.

I think we all have bystander issues.  Even when we know something isn't right, we kind of hang back to see what will happen.  But, if a woman were to say that she's not okay with going on, we're likely to spring into action.  *We need to fix that, too!* 

 

[Pen]

16 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I was hesitant to post what I did because I was afraid it would be interpreted that way.  I absolutely don’t think she did anything wrong in the library or any situation.  She was friendly and polite and creeper took it as an invitation to be a creeper.  Or possibly he would have been a creeper without any response.  But Chelli is asking what she can do and my comment was only aimed at that.  Providing an option to hopefully shut things down more quickly!  Not that she did anything wrong in any way!

think of it as a “here’s what to do if someone is snatching your handbag” not a “wow you just be so stupid if someone could just snatch your handbag” comment.

 

 

Yes. I agree. 

If someone goes into cars parked in a lot and steals things, the thief is the criminal.  Clearly  And I wish I never had to lock my car, but it just ain’t so in most places.

So,  it can be helpful to learn things like to lock the doors, not leave obvious valuables in plain view, to park in a spot more likely to be seen, maybe to install a car alarm. 

Trying to suggest things for the dd to do to keep safe doesn’t mean she is in the wrong. The predators are in the wrong. But right now it seems like she is like a car with valuables inside with  unlocked doors and no alarms. She needs a demeanor that is like a locked door, and a bunch of safety training and alarms ready to go off. 

[Pen]

6 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

She should use her age if that makes her feel better.  However, that isn't going to bother some men, and it isn't going to always be the truth.  Not that there's anything wrong with lying in this case; I'm just pointing out that some day she's going to be 21, and I don't think we will have fixed men by then.

I would recommend not being polite anymore.  A stranger who walks up and asks if she knows the wifi password or where the periodicals section is might be worthy of a polite answer to the specific question.  A stranger trying to "chat her up", whether creepy or innocent, doesn't obligate her to be nice.  "Leave me alone" is a completely reasonable response.  "This creep is making me uncomfortable. Can someone help me?" is a completely reasonable thing to say/shout for other people to hear.

I think we all have bystander issues.  Even when we know something isn't right, we kind of hang back to see what will happen.  But, if a woman were to say that she's not okay with going on, we're likely to spring into action.  *We need to fix that, too!* 

 

 

Yes.  And maybe no one would help if she shouted for help even if she were in the child section of a public library. 

But I think a lot of people would. And the more she says loudly what the problem is the better since these days it might not be clear if there is about to be an active shooter situation or what might be going down

But acting like she is politely at least somewhat engaged in a flirtation with a guy —not clearly and loudly telling him to leave her alone— is almost certainly not going to get her any help from others. 

And good practice to get into for when she is older when she may need to say No very clearly to co-workers, dates, or others also, and won’t have mom to go to. 

[Chelli]

I'm at a retreat this weekend so I'm popping in to address some questions.

A few of you have mentioned location as being a factor, which I honestly had never considered. We are outside Houston in Texas  (a pp said Texas was especially bad for this kind of behavior).

Someone else asked about other locations encounters like this have occurred: Wal-Mart, our local HEB (grocery store), parks, jogging in the neighborhood, etc. Pretty much if she's out and about with me running errands or going to extracurriculars, she is approached and/ or cat-called at least once. I can honestly see her weighing in her mind if it's worth dealing with it when we leave the house or if she would rather just stay home.

[fairfarmhand]

Wow. I am so sorry for you. I’ve never seen this and I live in small town middle Tennessee. I know both Christian and secular men (from teens to old guys) who would have stern words for obnoxious men behaving badly to a young man harassing a woman, young or older, in this way. Parts of it was clear that the girl/woman was not happy about it. 

Respecting women is part of our local culture. Not that there’s not jerks, but they’re not the majority of men.

Edited October 5, 2018 by fairfarmhand

[Lang Syne Boardie]

46 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

Wow. I am so sorry for you. I’ve never seen this and I live in small town middle Tennessee. I know both Christian and secular men (from teens to old guys) who would have stern words for obnoxious men behaving badly to a young man harassing a woman, young or older, in this way. Parts of it was clear that the girl/woman was not happy about it. 

Respecting women is part of our local culture. Not that there’s not jerks, but they’re not the majority of men.

 

? One of my best friends is from a small town near Knoxville. She and her teen and adult daughters have had the same experience as Chelli's daughter. We were just talking about it the other day.

[Pen]

1 hour ago, Chelli said:

Someone else asked about other locations encounters like this have occurred: Wal-Mart, our local HEB (grocery store), parks, jogging in the neighborhood, etc. Pretty much if she's out and about with me running errands or going to extracurriculars, she is approached and/ or cat-called at least once. I can honestly see her weighing in her mind if it's worth dealing with it when we leave the house or if she would rather just stay home

 

My own sense is that she needs practice now while still with you and thus relatively safe. 

She should be with someone at all times for jogging going to park etc. 

Personally, I would ignore the catcalls as much as possible.  

For the approaches, the frequency is in a way a good thing because it will give plenty of opportunity to test out irl what you work on during role play.  And places like WalMart and Grocery store are probably excellent for testing also making it look like she is on her own with a cart — yet having you actually be nearby    If you can video real situations it could help to look at them afterwards either on your own or with a self defense or law enforcement or acting professional who could help point things out  

(For example, I knew someone (male) who had a walk plus way of dressing and carrying himself that seemed to draw muggers, but it took an LEO professional to identify the problems and an acting coach to teach him to Fix them. )

If you can find any videos of a woman like Caroline Kennedy as a teenager / young woman dealing with others, it might help to imitate and learn the proper frosty demeanor. 

[TracyP]

Chelli, I'm sorry your daughter is struggling with this. I hope some of the advice here is helpful to her.

Re location - I do think that makes a big difference. While I expect many women have experienced this crap, I have never heard of anybody dealing with it every time they leave the house, or anything close to that. It seems several here have, but that is not typical where I live. I have a SIL who is gorgeous (she was offered the role of Charlize Theron's character as a teen in North Country) Her comments have led me to believe she experienced almost the opposite. Guys were afraid to approach her at all.

Re times changing - My brother is married to the aforementioned gorgeous SIL. This summer he asked me if I thought porn could be messing with the brains of young men. He said that over the past couple years his wife has started getting more unwanted attention. She isn't being approached or catcalled, but "just" ogled. Someone upthread said something about brazen pornified men. That is how he described his gut feeling about these young men. He was pretty disturbed by it. So I do think it is possible that this is getting worse. ?

[Pen]

I came back to look because of a notification and realized that in past post where I suggested that words used should be clear to the man hitting on her that she wants him to go away, loud and clear to bystanders that she is being bothered and in addition:  all visual signals should be as clear as they can be such that if security footage were to record the interaction the dd would visually also be showing no, go away body language 

[Ravin]

I would advise her to:

1. Flip off a guy who catcalls.

2. If that doesn't shut them up, or someone still asks for her number, and offers her a pen and paper, she can always write "No" or "hell no" on the paper and hand it back.

3. If she feels unsafe/intimidated, shout. "What the F___ is wrong with you, you sexist A___hole?" Get aggressive and they're likely to back off. 

4. Recording boorish behavior with her cell phone is also an excellent idea, especially at school, where there is likely a zero tolerance policy in place. 

The icy death glare is a good strategy, if she can master it. 

[Angie in VA]

I think this song is a couple years old now, but I only heard this recently and immediately thought of this thread. Not helpful, just related. 

Meagan Trainor's "NO"

[Katy]

I dealt with that as a kid too. Part of it was in the South it's more acceptable for creeps to say gross things to & about your appearance than in other places.  My college roommate (in New England) was from the area, was more attractive than me, and MUCH better at dealing with it than I was. I learned how to put on an ugly face in public from her.  I think she needs to know a myriad of strategies and go with instinct as to which is best for any individual situation.

The first thing is regarding not changing her personality - her personality will never change, but she should know if she doesn't want it to be interpreted as flirting she can't act friendly and outgoing with men she doesn't know, or smile or make extended eye contact with strange men without them assuming she is flirting.  She can be smiling at YOU in the grocery store, not have dropped the smile from her face, accidentally make eye contact with a stranger and she'll find he'll think she's flirting with him. It's just the way men are wired, and IME they are worse at this in the South.

The next thing is when creepers come up to her she has to be ABSOLUTELY OKAY with acting like a huge bi*&# and getting called that word. It's even GOOD to get called a mean name, because if nothing else it means the man heard her boundary.

That could mean, "Get away from me creep!" or "Get lost loser"  or "Dirty old man!" or (and this was one of my favorites) ignoring everything the man said and repeat the word "NO!" loudly, with a horrified look on her face.  That was my version of Jenna Marble's face.

If she's feeling chatty it could be more like, "Did I look at you, or smile at you, or flirt with you in any way?  Then what makes you think I would possibly be interested in you sitting here harassing me?  GO AWAY YOU CREEP!"

Getting harassed was also partially why I had plenty of male friends and usually had a boyfriend throughout my teen years, even though I knew I wasn't interested in any of them long-term. Having your dad or a boyfriend around is usually enough to curb the crap like strangers groping you, if for no other reason than they know they might get punched.  It won't stop catcalling though. It's also helpful to have male friends who will drop things and come over when a creeper comes to your apartment and exposes himself to you.

You might also want her to read The Game by Neil Strauss. It will give her a lot of insight into the entire pickup artist community and the ways men are taught to scam women into having sex with them. And that might also help her to not take it personally, because to that certain segment of men it really is JUST A GAME. If they ask 200 women to have sex with them and one says yes, they know that forevermore they just have to harass 200 women to get lucky.  They literally don't care how many women call them creeps or losers or throw drinks in their faces. And they learn manipulative strategies (like subtly insulting women, or like taking a woman to multiple locations makes it FEEL like multiple dates and makes it more likely to have a one night stand) that improve their odds.  Knowing these things might make it feel less personal to her.

I'm all for giving her some historical feminist literature.  Just don't make the mistake my mother did - don't assume that because you're familiar with 2nd wave feminist theory ONLY that ALL feminism is about women being treated equally. Familiarize yourself with the different waves of feminism (possibly your DD too) so you're not directing her to read something like my mother did, when she handed me a book that was all about how immoral it is to be straight, be attracted to men, or have children.  It made for a couple awkward conversations until I realized she didn't know anyone that labeled themselves feminist was that radical about it, she'd just read a reference to this book in a magazine and thought it would teach me more about feminism. She thought I was getting something more akin to my generation's Gloria Steinhem. 

[LucyStoner]

I got a lot of such attention when I was 14-16, mostly while using public transportation.  I was followed, hit on, grabbed, handed a BDSM porn magazine and more all while riding the bus.  One time waiting for the bus wearing about 11 layers of Seattle grunge era clothing an adult man tried to buy me for his son.  He thought I was a hooker I guess.  A 15-year-old hooker wearing Doc Martens and lugging a 20-pound backpack, who the hell knows what he was thinking. 

I developed a face that said, "if you accidentally on purpose touch me again, I will break your f-ing arm and I won't be sorry about it either."  Key to doing this was learning how to back it up with actions if need be.  This didn't stop harassment attempts but it did stem them considerably + kept me and others safe on more than one occasion.  I was actively involved in Home Alive in the mid to late 1990s.  I don't think this made me immune but it really did help me continue to live my life and do the things I wanted to do (catch the bus home alone after classes, visit friends, go hiking and running alone etc) without hiding.  

Another key thing:  teach her that she doesn't need to be nice to everyone.  Maybe I chased off some harmless guys over the years but at the end of the day, I wasn't interested and I didn't owe them congeniality.  Girls are conditioned to stay quiet and be polite.   Sometimes that's a helpful defense mechanism.  Sometimes it is dangerous.   Most intrusive men don't want to deal with women who won't react the way they are expecting.  

FWIW:  I didn't need to use this face and stance all the time.  It came out only when someone was bothering me or someone else or when I was in a situation where I wasn't open to talking to anyone.  I was a pretty outgoing teenager, had a lot of friends (male and female) and I even met a few of those male friends on the bus.  So I wasn't preemptively scaring the shit out of dudes.  

Edited October 9, 2018 by LucyStoner