Taking a baby out of the carseat on a long trip? - Update in #96

[JumpyTheFrog]

A friend took her baby on a long car ride (about 13 hours) for the first time last week. The baby is 7 months old and was unhappy for much of the trip. The mom sat in the back with her and took her out of the car seat. It sounded like she was in the mom's lap for 4-5 hours.

What do you think? I thought it was a bad idea but only said something about making sure they don't get pulled over.

She is a first time mom and from what I can tell, the baby is being held by one parent or another most of the day. I think maybe she feels much more obligated to keep the baby from crying, or even fussing, than most parents do.

Edited August 11, 2016 by HoppyTheToad

[mommyoffive]

Um no.

 

My gosh.   My kiddos have hated the carseat too, but I would never ever let them out of it while the car is moving.  Never.

 

It just means you have to take lots of breaks and the 2 hour car ride ends up being 4. 

 

 

[freesia]

No, just no. I remember stopping regularly with a crying baby on long trips, but no holding outside the carseat ever.

[Excelsior! Academy]

It is illegal and a poor safety choice.  That's not to say I haven't been tempted. Way back before seat belt laws, I can remember my mom holding my sister in the front passenger seat.  It made for a much quieter ride.  Honestly, if nothing calmed the baby down I would resort to screen time, even for an child that young.  Seven hours is a long time to hear a baby fussing.  

 

 

 

Eta:  Child BUCKLED screen time.

 

 

Et also a:  As my dad used to say, "Its time to walk the dogs," referring to us, as children, needing to get out and run around.  If nothing consoled the poor child.  STOP the car and sit in Micky D's for a while or hang out at a rest stop, but no, flirting with the law and safety is a no-go.

Edited August 9, 2016 by Excelsior! Academy

[zoobie]

Hell no. 

[luuknam]

Why was she even telling you this? If she brought it up, I'd let her know that if the baby dies in a car crash, she'll regret that the rest of her life. But other than that, not really my problem (most of us weren't ever in a car seat growing up).

[EmseB]

No. I have done multiple cross-country road trips with babies and never. We stop often to take them out and stretch their little bodies, but never in a moving vehicle. No.

[Ravin]

Not only no, but Hel No, with a few more colorful addendums.

 

Unbuckle or contort oneself to nurse? Give one's hand over for a lovey/plaything for hours at a time? Medicate the baby with something sleepy-making (ask dr. ahead of trip)? Put entertainment on a screen in front of the baby you wouldn't ordinarily? Make frequent stops? Sure.

 

Baby stays buckled in carseat while car is moving. End of discussion.

 

Edited August 9, 2016 by Ravin

[catz]

Whoa.  We have done many LONG road trips with kids in car seats when they were younger and they've never been out of the carseat in a moving vehicle.  There have been times where we just had to be prepared to stop or listen to crying for a bit.  We always stop every 2 hours at a minimum anyway.  I think that is nuts. 

[poppy]

Did you ever watch the movie Fearless? It's about survivors of a plane crash. One of the survivors was a woman who was holding her infant, who did die in the crash. She is so traumatized by this--- blaming herself for not holding on better. At the end, another character has her hold onto something while he deliberately crashes a car into a wall, to prove to her that there was no way she'd have been able to hold the child in a crash, even if she knew it was coming.

 

That's what this post made me think of.

 

I do think that until / unless you've been in a serious crash, you are a little blind to how bad it can be.  It is very, very bad. Dumb risks really aren't worth it.

[Beaniemom]

I'll add to the no ways! When dd9 was 6 months old we moved cross country. I drove 5 long days with her in the car and she was always buckled. I sang and listened to the same song over and over to calm her. We stopped a lot to rest/nurse but we did it.

[zoobie]

Did you ever watch the movie Fearless? It's about survivors of a plane crash. One of the survivors was a woman who was holding her infant, who did die in the crash. She is so traumatized by this--- blaming herself for not holding on better. At the end, another character has her hold onto something while he deliberately crashes a car into a wall, to prove to her that there was no way she'd have been able to hold the child in a crash, even if she knew it was coming.

 

That's what this post made me think of.

 

I do think that until / unless you've been in a serious crash, you are a little blind to how bad it can be.  It is very, very bad. Dumb risks really aren't worth it.

 

It wouldn't take a serious crash to hurt or kill a baby being held. It's completely stupid. Poor baby. :(

[AmandaVT]

Nope!

 

We got into a high speed car accident when DS was 4 months old. We were hit by a drunk driver on the interstate. I was so glad we had him in a well installed carseat! He was the only one not injured. 

[wendyroo]

Never, ever, ever.

 

I did once have an older baby SCREAMING for most of a 14 hour car trip.  A lot of the driving was through the mountains, and I think his ears were bugging him.  Desperate times call for desperate measures, so I sat next to him propping up an ipad for him to watch and feeding him pudding for hours on end.

 

I was very tempted to take him out of his car seat, but neither DH or I ever seriously considered doing it. 

 

Wendy

[AnnE-girl]

Absolutely not. Plan to drive as much as possible during nap times, have new and interesting toys, and stop often. Also just avoiding long car trips until baby can handle them better.

[bolt.]

It's so inconceivable that I want to ask if it's possible you misunderstood due to unclear phrasing?

 

Did she maybe mean to say that they spent a lot of time *stoped* with the baby out, and *then* they kept driving (after putting her back in)? But maybe she said just that they had to take the baby out a lot (and) they had to keep driving?

 

But the comment about not wanting to get caught doesn't fit... I just can't conceive of anyone taking a risk like that! I'm shocked and looking for any possible explaination.

[fraidycat]

Obviously, I think it's a bad idea.

 

But, since it is over and done with, I'm not sure what discussing it accomplishes since the originator of the action is not part of the discussion to learn why it is a bad idea. So we're basically just judging a mother in absentia.

[Janeway]

No way.

[Amy in NH]

No.  Illegal and dangerous.

[Spryte]

No. Just NO.

[Ellie]

Oh heck no.

[magnificent_baby]

Echoing the others. Never okay. 

[Spryte]

This reminds me of my son's first pediatrician. She and her husband were on the way home from a long trip, with a long way to go. She must have known better, but she was exhausted, and she climbed in the backseat to sleep. She laid down, and was not buckled. They had an accident, she had brain damage and could not walk for almost a year. She did eventually come back to work at her own practice but with a cane, and her personality always a seemed different. She has since closed her practice.

[JumpyTheFrog]

It's so inconceivable that I want to ask if it's possible you misunderstood due to unclear phrasing?

 

Did she maybe mean to say that they spent a lot of time *stoped* with the baby out, and *then* they kept driving (after putting her back in)? But maybe she said just that they had to take the baby out a lot (and) they had to keep driving?

Nope, she was quite clear when she explained it to me. They tried to spend most of the trip driving at night, but it didn't work out as well as they hoped. The baby was out of the carseat for hours in addition to extra stops, including one to go hiking to calm her. (The parents take the bay hiking a lot.)

 

This baby is one of the calmest I've ever met. Definitely way calmer than either of my kids were. I think the parents were unprepared to listen to her cry on and off for a couple hours, since they seem to never let her cry (from what I've seen).

 

I will see both the mom and dad in a couple days. Is there some polite way I can bring up that they shouldn't try that again? I think I should probably say something much stronger than what I said today about them being lucky to not get caught.

[bettyandbob]

No. Doesn't matter how much baby cries. Not safe ever.

[luuknam]

Is there some polite way I can bring up that they shouldn't try that again?

 

Not really. You can say "hey, you remember mentioning blah blah - well, I was thinking some more, and I'm just really worried about your baby getting hurt in an accident". But, from a politeness pov, it would have been a million times better if you'd said that when she was telling you, rather than bringing it up later. That said, sometimes it's okay to not be polite.

[fraidycat]

Nope, she was quite clear when she explained it to me. They tried to spend most of the trip driving at night, but it didn't work out as well as they hoped. The baby was out of the carseat for hours in addition to extra stops, including one to go hiking to calm her. (The parents take the bay hiking a lot.)

 

This baby is one of the calmest I've ever met. Definitely way calmer than either of my kids were. I think the parents were unprepared to listen to her cry on and off for a couple hours, since they seem to never let her cry (from what I've seen).

 

I will see both the mom and dad in a couple days. Is there some polite way I can bring up that they shouldn't try that again? I think I should probably say something much stronger than what I said today about them being lucky to not get caught.

No need to be polite. Be blunt.

 

"Since we talked about your trip, something is bothering me. I'm going to be blunt here, I might hurt your feelings, but baby's safety is more important to me than your feelings: taking baby out of car seat in a moving vehicle is stupid and dangerous. The laws are laws for a reason."

Edited August 9, 2016 by fraidycat

[Guest]

Completely unacceptable. If the vehicle is rolling the child is buckled in. If the kid is unhappy use a pacifier, screens, whatever, or pull over to stop for short stretches. If the crying is heavy I like to turn up the music to drown it out a bit, and roll down the windows to make everyone happier. Holding baby in lap in back seat? Horribly dangerous, especially given that many road trips are on highways where speeds are high and accidents involve very high force.

[Carrie12345]

 

What do you think? I thought it was a bad idea but only said something about making sure they don't get pulled over.

 

 

What do I think of what?  The laws of physics?  I think they remain in effect even when parents are trying to calm babies.

 

Crying babies on car trips suck, no doubt.  Our 12 hour trip took 18 with stops for a screaming baby, and the stops didn't really help any of us at all.  I may have thought about throwing myself off a bridge, but risking my child's safety (and, really, the safe of the rest of the family when you think about what a 15lb projectile can do in an accident,) wasn't a legal or ethical option.

[J-rap]

Now I feel really badly because I'm sure I did that occasionally (very seldom) on long car rides to nurse quickly (maybe 5 minutes), just enough to tide them over.  I'd only do it if sitting in the back seat.

 

What do you think of taking a baby out of a car seat on a plane?  We were on a plane last week, and an infant screamed the whole way.  He was strapped in his car seat the whole time, and I kept thinking that if he could just snuggle in his mother's lap for a bit, he'd calm down.  The seatbelt sign was off and passengers were walking around.

[QueenCat]

Nope, never, NOT OKAY. In fact, I'd have probably had such a shocked look on my fast that she'd have regretted telling me. And if she uses that kind of judgement, my kids would never be left alone with her.

[TravelingChris]

No. not okay.  We moved several times across the country with children in car seats including a two week old baby.  They always stayed in their carseats.

[luuknam]

I may have thought about throwing myself off a bridge, but risking my child's safety

 

Um, you do know that driving off a bridge would risk everyone's safety too, right? Probably best to pull over, at that point, but if it's between baby in lap vs driver thinking about driving off a bridge, I'd go with baby in lap.

[sheryl]

No, NEVER unless necessary on way to hospital which would be close.  

[dirty ethel rackham]

Um no.

 

My gosh.   My kiddos have hated the carseat too, but I would never ever let them out of it while the car is moving.  Never.

 

It just means you have to take lots of breaks and the 2 hour car ride ends up being 4. 

:iagree: My youngest, a calm, smiley baby turned into a possessed screamer when she was in the car.  I couldn't drive for more than 20 minutes with her without needing a sanity break.  We would all sing songs as loud as we could, partially to help calm her and partially to drown her out.  On one trip that we dared to take, I ended up leaning over her in the back to nurse her to help her fall alseep.  I put my own safety at risk to help us get more than 30 minutes without a break.  But hey ... a few truckers enjoyed the view.  We didn't drive anywhere more than 30 minutes away until we turned the car seat around and she became a different kid in the car. 

 

Um, you do know that driving off a bridge would risk everyone's safety too, right? Probably best to pull over, at that point, but if it's between baby in lap vs driver thinking about driving off a bridge, I'd go with baby in lap.

I think she meant she would jump off the bridge, not drive the car over one.  I have had that feeling, where the thought of jumping through a plate glass window seemed so much less painful than listening to screaming. 

[Annie G]

 

I will see both the mom and dad in a couple days. Is there some polite way I can bring up that they shouldn't try that again? I think I should probably say something much stronger than what I said today about them being lucky to not get caught.

 

You could bring it up by saying that you've thought about it and want to encourage them that traveling with kids is a learned skill. They have to learn to let the baby cry and still be able to concentrate on their driving. They have to learn ways to entertain baby and figure out when baby really needs something vs. when it's ok to let her cry. Like, if they stop and change and feed the baby and then she starts screaming, sometimes you have to let her scream.  Read her a book, talk to her, find music that appeals to her (We wore out Raffi cds when our kids were little).   

 

In other words, encourage them to make the right choice rather than condemn the choice they made.  *Maybe* they will respond to that better than if you point out that tragedy could have been just around the bend. 

 

Plus, a baby who learns that a moving car equals being buckled in makes it easier to have a toddler/preschooler/kid who travels without getting out of the carseat while moving.   It's torture now but it pays off in the years to come. 

[bolt.]

I've done the topless twist-and-lean to nurse a fussy baby safely in a car seat. I don't think even a few moments is anywhere near a risk I could ethically take.

 

However, airplanes are much safer. The risk of midair collisions is vanishingly tiny. Turbulence injuries are rarely severe (though it does happen, of course) and turbulence is usually expected and the seatbelt sign will be on (not always, of course). Virtually the only risk to an aircraft is the ground -- in a rough landing (which are very rare too) a car seat would be some protection. Therefore, there is almost no safety gained by keeping a baby in a car seat at altitude for the duration of a flight by air. In fact, babies are permitted to travel by air without any safety devices at all.

 

Travel by car and by air are completely different things, involving completely different risks and vastly different safety measures.

Edited August 9, 2016 by bolt.

[Xahm]

I will see both the mom and dad in a couple days. Is there some polite way I can bring up that they shouldn't try that again? I think I should probably say something much stronger than what I said today about them being lucky to not get caught.

I would bring it up by giving them a gift, like a cd of the songs that your kids most enjoyed in the car and a pair of ear plugs that would dampen but not eliminate noise (since that would be dangerous, too. Say, "I remember how hard those days were, but maybe the music will help entertain baby. The earplugs are to help if the music doesn't. It's hard to listen to crying, but we have to figure out some way to keep both baby and our sanity safe." Maybe nice chocolates in place of the earplugs. If it's presented as a "we're all on team safe Baby and happy family" and you act like it's taken for granted they did something stupid out of desperation, you won't need to call it stupid.

[JumpyTheFrog]

You could bring it up by saying that you've thought about it and want to encourage them that traveling with kids is a learned skill. They have to learn to let the baby cry and still be able to concentrate on their driving. They have to learn ways to entertain baby and figure out when baby really needs something vs. when it's ok to let her cry. Like, if they stop and change and feed the baby and then she starts screaming, sometimes you have to let her scream. Read her a book, talk to her, find music that appeals to her (We wore out Raffi cds when our kids were little).

 

In other words, encourage them to make the right choice rather than condemn the choice they made. *Maybe* they will respond to that better than if you point out that tragedy could have been just around the bend.

 

Plus, a baby who learns that a moving car equals being buckled in makes it easier to have a toddler/preschooler/kid who travels without getting out of the carseat while moving. It's torture now but it pays off in the years to come.

I like this approach. However, the mom seems to rely on breastfeeding as the go-to solution for most fussing or crying. I see her four days per week somewhere and she'll nurse the baby (dad watches her in the morning and she won't take a bottle), we'll talk for 10-30 minutes, and then she'll go nurse her again before leaving to drive home. She says the baby seems clingy and then wants to nurse much of the afternoon.

 

I personally tend to think the baby might just be bored and/or too used to being held most of the day. I mention this because I think it plays into their lack of willingness to tolerate a crying baby on a long trip. One of them said something about no more long car trips for a long time, but I know they are going to a wedding soon. I'll have to find out where it is so I can encourage them to do it differently if it is a long drive.

[luuknam]

N/m. 

Edited August 9, 2016 by luuknam

[Ravin]

Now I feel really badly because I'm sure I did that occasionally (very seldom) on long car rides to nurse quickly (maybe 5 minutes), just enough to tide them over.  I'd only do it if sitting in the back seat.

 

What do you think of taking a baby out of a car seat on a plane?  We were on a plane last week, and an infant screamed the whole way.  He was strapped in his car seat the whole time, and I kept thinking that if he could just snuggle in his mother's lap for a bit, he'd calm down.  The seatbelt sign was off and passengers were walking around.

 

The statistical likelihood of a plane crash is infinitesimally small. The only time I would worry about an infant on a plane would be if there was turbulence, or during takeoff/landing. That said, I have never had the carseat with me when flying with an infant--I always carried the baby on as a lapsitter. In that case, you aren't allowed to have the baby restrained to you during takeoff/landing; the FAA in their wisdom has determined that in-arms is safer than being strapped to an adult in a sling or something.

 

I wouldn't want to deal with a carseat on a plane. I checked it for free (thank you, Southwest!)

Edited August 9, 2016 by Ravin

[Ravin]

I like this approach. However, the mom seems to rely on breastfeeding as the go-to solution for most fussing or crying. I see her four days per week somewhere and she'll nurse the baby (dad watches her in the morning and she won't take a bottle), we'll talk for 10-30 minutes, and then she'll go nurse her again before leaving to drive home. She says the baby seems clingy and then wants to nurse much of the afternoon.

 

I personally tend to think the baby might just be bored and/or too used to being held most of the day. I mention this because I think it plays into their lack of willingness to tolerate a crying baby on a long trip. One of them said something about no more long car trips for a long time, but I know they are going to a wedding soon. I'll have to find out where it is so I can encourage them to do it differently if it is a long drive.

 

There is no such thing as a baby being "too used" to being held most of the day. Babies are hardwired to want to be in-arms and that is a good thing. A car ride is an artificial situation brought about by modern technology, and a carseat is a necessary safety measure in that situation that trumps the general wisdom of not letting a baby cry.

 

I would fully expect the baby to be clingy afterward.

 

I would also try a finger or a pacifier (if the baby will take it at all).

 

That said, I got very good when DD was little at contorting myself to nurse her while she was strapped in her seat; it is not too insane a thing to do with the baby rear-facing. I even got the hang of doing it while belted in myself (albeit with the shoulder strap loosened) so that in an accident, while I might not be in the most optimum position for my own safety, I at least wouldn't become a human projectile.

 

Of course, in your friend's shoes I'd have just continued talking to you WHILE nursing the baby instead of going off somewhere to do it, and probably would have taken care of my business with baby in the sling, rather than dragging dad along. 

[Caclcoca]

No.  Babies must stay in the car seat while the car is moving.  My sweet dd at 9 months cried from the Florida Georgia state line until we were in North Alabama.  I sat in the seat behind her and patted and talked and, and , and....  It was a miserable trip.  That was 12 years ago, and it will still come up from time to time.  

[MistyMountain]

I have had babies that wanted to nurse all the time and not want to be put down. That I would not judge about. Some babies are more high needs then others and meeting babies needs helps them feel secure. One of my babies nursed all the time or wanted to be in a carrier with me walking around or they were not happy.

 

I would NEVER in a million years hold my unbuckled baby in a car. If I had to take a long trip with a baby I would sit in the back and talk and touch them and feed them snacks and make a lot of stops. Holding an unbuckled baby in a car is a hell no thing for me. I would not consider it.

Edited August 10, 2016 by MistyMountain

[LucyStoner]

The baby would potentially fare better laying on the seat or the floor unsecured than an a parent's arms during a car crash. Because the parent is going to add a lot of pounds of force to the child's much smaller body in the event of a crash. Long car trips just take longer with babies who don't like to sleep in cars because you have to stop and give them a break sometimes. Car crashes are one of the top causes of injury and death to infants so it's just not the place to screw around.

 

As for airplanes there is only one documented instance in the last 30 years of a lap baby dying on a plane crash that was otherwise survivable and in that case, the airline attendant told the mother to do something ridiculous like squish the baby under a seat or something. Not recalling the details now. Long time since I was a car seat tech volunteer. The only reason we ever took a car seat on the plane was for the comfort of the child and the convenience of being able to strap him in so he wasn't wiggling under the seats. Airplanes are already so much safer than cars that the safety of a car seat isn't really a measurable factor.

Edited August 9, 2016 by LucyStoner

[MistyMountain]

Airplanes are a different matter to me because the risk is much smaller. I have taken babies/toddlers out of seat on the plane if they are crying but never in a car.

[zoobie]

I like this approach. However, the mom seems to rely on breastfeeding as the go-to solution for most fussing or crying. I see her four days per week somewhere and she'll nurse the baby (dad watches her in the morning and she won't take a bottle), we'll talk for 10-30 minutes, and then she'll go nurse her again before leaving to drive home. She says the baby seems clingy and then wants to nurse much of the afternoon.

 

I personally tend to think the baby might just be bored and/or too used to being held most of the day. I mention this because I think it plays into their lack of willingness to tolerate a crying baby on a long trip. One of them said something about no more long car trips for a long time, but I know they are going to a wedding soon. I'll have to find out where it is so I can encourage them to do it differently if it is a long drive.

There's no such thing as holding a baby too much. ITA with Ravin.

 

The baby fussing, wanting to nurse, and being highly uncomfortable in a car seat can be signs of reflux. If they are using a bucket seat, sometimes the larger (still RF) convertible seats are more comfy. You could approach it by suggesting they move on to another seat, but I'd be prepared for it to be taken defensively. It's really, really unsafe, but they'd have to live under a rock not to know that these days. Are they recent immigrants?

 

I'd never criticize a mom for nursing "too much," but it would be really hard to stay quiet on the car seat issue.

[McKay]

No......absolutely no.

 

We were on our way to an event in the next town on a February evening when a truck pulled out in front of us.  My dh put on the brakes, but due to the icy roads we ended up losing control of the car, went off the side of the road and the car flipped. The baby was in the carseat upside down, totally fine.  That was enough to make me adamant about carseat use.

[JFSinIL]

No. Hell no. When we were in our crash a couple years ago, heck, as the car spun I could not even control my flailing arms (thought if I could just grab the side of the car I could make it all stop with my amazing Mom powers ;-) ) there is no way anyone in an accident is going to hang onto a baby. So not worth the risk.

Edited August 9, 2016 by JFSinIL

[abacus2]

I have a positive and a negative anecdote to support keeping baby safely in the carseat all the time.  An acquaintance of my mom lost her baby in arms to a sudden stop. It doesn't require a severe accident to cause severe results. My cousins moved from NJ to NC in the mid '80s. The baby was very fussy and they were almost to their destination. My aunt seriously considered getting the baby out of her carseat, but didn't. Before arriving, they were involved in a serious accident that totaled the vehicle and trapped one of the other children. Fortunately they all escaped serious injury, but I am afraid that would not have been the case had my cousin been out of her carseat.