I have to follow through, don't I

[Farrar]

Thanks, guys. Update in post 68 if you're interested.

Edited August 6, 2016 by Farrar

[Liz CA]

What else does he care about that you could take away for a while or restrict? Something that would not punish the innocent  so to speak?

 

What has been done about his anxiety attacks / insomnia? I am just wondering if this is a punishable offense but I don't know what you know.

[eternalsummer]

My instinct would be to stay home with him, and save the free tickets for the next time you all go together (so it's just cheaper) or take other kid with you when you go again (so it's just one ticket extra)

 

I operate almost entirely by instinct with parenting, though, so I can't tell you why this is the right thing to do :)

 

I would do the thing that makes you feel like it is the least wrong option.

 

Depending on how old the kid is, I might instead come clean with him:

 

"Ack, DS, I made a threat I couldn't follow through on.  I didn't think it through clearly - this is why: [explain sitiuation].  Do you have a good idea of a fair way to resolve this?"  (make it clear that you're not going to just take him along and do nothing, as that isn't fair either)

 

Sometimes with DD11 I do this; she is old enough to realize that I make mistakes too, and it helps her work through things when she makes a similar one herself (she is a perfectionist of sorts, so there's a lot of internal pressure to do the right thing every time)

Edited August 5, 2016 by ananemone

[Tap]

I don't know the whole situation, but I would never punish a medical condition.  Insomnia and panic are not things under his control.  Keeping others up may have been preventable, but if he was having anxiety attacks or impulse control issues due to exhaustion then he may not have been completely in control over the situation.  

If you need to have it be a consequence due to how it all played out, I understand that.  In that case, I would stay home with him and send brother. 

[kiwik]

Did you perhaps make this threat in desperation? And now you feel backed into a corner? Could ds actually get himself under control? Honestly in some cases saying "I was desperate and made a threat really believing it would work. I shouldn't have done that so what is a better solution?" is a better approach than being stubborn because you can't back down. If of course you feel the threat was quite reasonable then give your other son a choice of going now or later - or if at all possible let him go both now and later. (I don't know what is is let alone what it costs),

 

Someone above cross posted.

Edited August 5, 2016 by kiwik

[Tap]

In regards to the tickets. If you decide to keep ds home,  give the son who can go the choice. He can go one time.  He can choose to go with his friends now or with you and ds at a later date, but not both. 

[LucyStoner]

Provided your son is functional on little sleep, I'd tell him we needed to discuss other solutions but that we were all still going to six flags. I'd probably make that solution something along the lines of him learning about sleep hygenie and deciding on a goal for a bedtime routine. I agree with the others who aren't sure if this is something I would want to punish for. Of course, I wasn't there and don't know your son so perhaps the punishment is the best option.

 

If he's not going to be functional, I'd send your other son with friends and pay for one ticket for him tomorrow. Then save the three free tickets and go all together some other time. My son has struggled with sleep, insomnia and anxiety and a lot of the time taking him anywhere the morning after a bad night was a non-starter. I wouldn't want to punish one son because the other one was passed out from not sleeping.

Edited August 5, 2016 by LucyStoner

[fraidycat]

Ack! Tough situation. I've gotten myself into similar pickles.

 

In this situation, I'd probably eat crow, apologize for making the threat, take him to Six Flags, and talk about it later. Anxiety is the lizard brain taking over, so his rational, logical brain was not in control.

 

Not that you asked, but as a parent who has used it on my kids for various meltdowns and on myself for lots of stuff, including anxiety/panic attacks, I highly recommend EFT. It takes about 5 minutes to learn.

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S1efrIBI9BY

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rIyitU0hD28

 

ETA: You or he can do it, in the moment of the anxiety, no talking required. The acupressure calms the amygdala.

 

Here's a Mom tapping on her little one for sleep. A couple more rounds and she might've been zonked on her mom's shoulder. :)

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PRunlIK0mcQ

Edited August 5, 2016 by fraidycat

[Alte Veste Academy]

I have a kid with anxiety. High stakes ramps it up big time. Heavy threats make any situation much, much worse, adding pressure to an already tense situation. Here it would have escalated the problem, with absolutely zero hope of the desired outcome.

 

Because of that, I vote no, you do not have to follow through. I would tell him mea culpa and try to have a good outing. :grouphug:

[happi duck]

Imho, you should all go to six flags as planned.

 

I think it's okay to say "I shouldn't have said that."

 

I have panic disorder. Punishment or reasoning doesn't make it stop. It feels awful.

Edited August 5, 2016 by happi duck

[heartlikealion]

I would stay home because I would be a mess Lol. The tired stay home...? That might be two or three. Giving the one child a choice depending on how he feels. Yup only one day so it does not cost you extra.

 

Seriously do not think rollercoasters would be fun on limited sleep. Ugh. Migraine?

[happymom4]

I guess I'm not clear about why he is being punished in the first place.  If he has a medical condition I wouldn't want to punish him because he can't control himself about it.  My ds had some sleep issues that where truly upsetting to him because he was exhausted but couldn't sleep.  He would cry and freak out telling me he's so tired but can't sleep.  If this is what happening to your son I wouldn't go through with the punishment.  I know I've been in situations where I wanted to (and did) punish my kids for some bothersome behavior because it was an annoyance but when I thought it through realized that it was something beyond their control.  I've had to bite the bullet and apologize to my kid and tell them I'm taking back the punishment because it was unjust.  

[foxbridgeacademy]

DD also has terrible anxiety and I absolutely don't think you should follow through on punishing an illness.  No matter how frustrated you get or how controllable you might think it is for him, it's not. The fear is unmanageable and the stress added to it unbearable.

 

Have you tried weighted blankets or wrapping him up and sleeping next to him?  DD usually sleeps on the couch (DH works 12 hour night shift so is home 3-4 nights per week) when she's having a bad night. It makes her feel better to have someone in the room, she also covers herself in big couch pillows.  If that doesn't work she comes and sleeps with me.  I let her "play with my hair" by brushing or braiding, it's a self soothing technique she developed at 2 yrs old and still works.  There are other techniques, stretching and yoga, Having a box of something (fuzzy pompom balls) that he can count while laying in bed is another one I've heard of a kid doing.

[Another Lynn]

I would either decide I shouldn't have given that consequence in the first place, or else follow through completely with he doesn't go to Six Flags.  I wouldn't do a middle ground where he gets to go to Six Flags another time.  

[Lang Syne Boardie]

"Sorry. I have no idea why I was trying to punish you for having an anxiety freak out. If you're not too tired to go, we'll go."

 

Honestly, anxiety in a dc is no joke and it makes desperate parents say dumb things. I too have threatened consequences for the child who seemed to me in the desperate moment to be deliberately escalating and ignoring my instructions or previously agreed behaviours.

 

Anxiety is not like that. It can be beyond deliberate and beyond consequences and just be shaking you in its maw, back and forth, back and forth.

 

Anxiety sucks for everyone but punishments don't modify it.

I agree with this, and have BTDT. It's ok to repeal and do over; we've talked about the reset button which is also for parents. :)

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Farrar, on further thoughts I think it's in your (and his) best interest if you take it back. Again, having earned the t-shirt, I think maybe you don't want to plant the idea that anxiety and insomnia lead to punishments and loss of good times, or that may be exactly where his perseveration will go at the onset of the next episode. Undo it now, because it will be nearly impossible to address it in that moment.

 

I've told my child that sleep is important, because even Mama will judge things differently when sleep deprived. If that happens, in the morning we ask ourselves if the night terrors and night thoughts were who we really are -- we are allowed to be ourselves again when the storm has passed.

[Lecka]

Okay, I think it depends what he was anxious about.

 

I wonder if he was really anxious about the sleep and it had nothing to do with being anxious about he trip to Six Flags the next day. Edit: or if there is a big connection where he had insomnia but really he was nervous about the trip and that is why he happened to have insomnia this night. Or nervous about some aspect of the trip.

 

I have more limited experience with anxiety, but I was told: do NOT let my child skip something I expect him to do because he is anxious.

 

This was personal to our situation.

 

But what I was doing was basically letting him skip things, and I should have been making him go.

 

So if it was my son, I would end up being told "well, he was anxious about this activity, and now you let him skip, so now he will act up even more and feel even worse the next time there is a similar situation."

 

Oh, and he will have told me there is no problem.

 

But then he will have told the counselor there really is a problem. And it will be with something I never dreamed he had anxiety about. Because he never told me, but he told the counselor.

 

Ugh, this is bringing back difficult memories.

 

Good luck with whatever you decide. It sounds like it was a difficult night for all of you.

 

Edit: to sum up, I thought I was being nice to let my son miss things, but it turned out that missing things made him more anxious the next time.

 

That was what the counselor said, and her recommendations helped.

 

He ended up not having general anxiety, he had situational anxiety.

 

But, I was told that I should watch him, he could develop general anxiety when he reached puberty, and if so I would need to explore the possibility of medication.

 

Edit again: oh, also, for why he told the counselor things but not me? He was worried that he would upset me! Not that I would be mad, but that I would feel like he felt. Poor kid.

 

But it was explained to me like this: whether I think I am being nice to let him skip, or I think I am delivering a natural consequence and he skips, either way skipping can make him more anxious about the next time.

 

Either way he was anxious and then missed the activity, and it will be the same cause/effect in a way.

 

I do not know if you would get different advice from your counselor, that is just what I was told, and it turned out to help with our situation.

 

Edit again: this is not the same son, but with my younger son, his behavior cannot be allowed to let him avoid a certain thing, unless he definitely wants to do it. It is way too much control for him to be able to act a certain way and then control that he doesn't have to do a certain thing. Even a thing that is supposed to be fun, maybe there is something about it that seems hard, and really he needs to be held accountable to do it with support, so that he sees that his behavior does not "work" to let him skip things.

 

And I know this sounds like a straight up fun trip, but it is so easy to think of ways it could be awkward or embarrassing, or a kid is afraid he will throw up, or afraid he won't want to go on the same rides, or even that someone teased him and you don't know. Who knows, but if it was one of my kids, it would be very likely to turn out to be something like this.

 

But it comes down to if you think that keeping him home today would make him less likely to have insomnia again the night before a special event.

 

If you think this consequence would work, or that he is just not capable of going with no sleep, then I think that is how you decide.

 

I don't think it is so much about what you said, except don't say stuff like that next time if what you really want is for your son to attend the activity as you have arranged. Think about what you actually want to happen. If you want him to go, I think sometimes you can say "you go, sorry you didn't sleep much, but you go anyway," and that is a natural consequence too.

 

But really I hope you might get the advice of a counselor, especially bc maybe your child will tell the counselor more than he tells you at first. Bc if he doesn't want to go to Six Flags, it is hard to tell you that probably, but maybe not so hard to tell the counselor.

 

And I know it is a huge guess that the insomnia was related to the next day's event, but even though it is a guess, I think it is something to consider.

 

Edit again: I don't at all mean my kids are ever purposefully manipulative. It is more that dynamics can start to get weird if one child can determine that we miss an event. I don't think it means it is on purpose or manipulative, but if it is happening, then that is the dynamic. Yes, we have had this dynamic, and it is nicer to not have it. But it was never like my son did things "on purpose" or "to be manipulative," it is just how it worked out combined with my responses.

Edited August 5, 2016 by Lecka

[J-rap]

I get what you're trying to do, but I don't think that punishing anxiety because of insomnia is the right thing to do.  (Of course, we maybe don't have the whole story.)  I imagine anxiety and insomnia are stressful enough, especially for a child, that adding to the stress of it all with a punishment would just exacerbate it, not help it.

 

I think if a parent has a change of heart after thinking something over, he/she should always feel they can back step on a decision.  I would just explain it to your son.  That doesn't mean you won't still try and work with him on ways to settle down and not freak out.

 

If he still has the energy to go, I'd go.

[ktgrok]

I don't know the whole situation, but I would never punish a medical condition.  Insomnia and panic are not things under his control.  Keeping others up may have been preventable, but if he was having anxiety attacks or impulse control issues due to exhaustion then he may not have been completely in control over the situation.  

If you need to have it be a consequence due to how it all played out, I understand that.  In that case, I would stay home with him and send brother. 

 

This. You can't punish someone into not being anxious. The part of the brain that was activated in anxiety is much too primitive to respond to cause and effect, or to allow him to control it that way. It would be like punishing him for having high blood pressure. Totally unfair. 

[JFSinIL]

Poor kid - my now adult son has suffered from insomnia off and on, panic attacks, depression, mania....not fun for him at all.  Not fun for your son either.  Has he seen a psychiatrist, who can try meds to find what helps?  I certainly would not punish a person for having anxiety and/or insomnia!!!!

[Spryte]

Do you have enough energy to go, after a night of no sleep? His brother? If you do, and he feels up to it, I'd probably (and have) tell him that I made a mistake in telling him we'd not go, and go. If he's going to melt down as a result of no sleep, then this might not work. Can you sit down and talk about how everyone will feel, and get some feedback from the kids?

 

I like Katie's idea of having him learn about sleep hygiene and propose a new bedtime routine.

 

DS here has similar anxiety about sleep, and every few months there's an incident, though it seems to have improved recently. He missed a long-awaited Nats game on July 4, as a result, but it was his (shocking) choice not to go. He had been sick though, so that played into the choice not to go - usually he'd go and the adrenaline would get him through, while the rest of us drag.

 

Good luck deciding!

[Valley Girl]

That's a tough spot to be sure. The only suggestion I can make is that I would do my best to make sure the sibling doesn't feel he is somehow being punished. You don't need resentment between the kids on top of it. We're struggling with sibling issues as a result, in part, of special needs. It's a difficult road to walk, and the non-SN kids don't always understand. Nor should they always have to be the ones to make accommodations. Sorry your fun plans have turned out this way.

[DawnM]

Having a special needs son myself, I will tell you that we have had to tweak some things in terms of punishments.   Things that work with neuro typical kids just make my Aspie angry and resentful and more depressed (feeling worthless and he can't do anything right, etc...)

 

I don't know your son's particular situation, but I personally would not punish him in this way.  Does he go to therapy?  Talk to the therapist about viable options for consequences and/or solutions.    

 

We have found that rewards work much better.  Not the "if you do this, you get to go to Six Flags with your friends who already have tickets" kind but the "Once you have gone 5 days without a meltdown, you get a new video game or a dinner out at the place of your choice" or whatever works for your kid.

 

I also would be very upset if I were the other family and had made plans with you and it was all set and you bailed.  That isn't fair to your other friends to punish them for your son's behavior either.

 

 

[Ravin]

With my DD, I would not punish this way for anxiety freak-out. In my experience, the freak out is usually it's own punishment. DD does get her good behavior rewards impeded for her meltdowns (she loses allowance points and her free time is delayed). But big things? Even if I threatened to take away something like that out of frustration, once everyone was calm I would apologize to my child for making a threat that, in retrospect, doesn't seem fair.

 

I get that it's not the freak-out itself that you object to, but the child not containing it sufficiently by going to the designated out of other peoples' faces location. But that part can be hard, too. My DD usually doesn't want to be alone when she is upset, even when absolutely no one wants to deal with her stuff in a "letting the baby cry it out in the crib is better than shaking them to death" sort of way, only the 12 year old with anxiety version. Engaging with my DD when she is like that spins her up more and prolongs things, even though being sent to her room until she calms down also spins her up, it's a briefer wind up and she usually gets herself together.

 

That said, I don't think I'd want to take her anywhere the day after a bout of insomnia because that would be asking for meltdowns at Six Flags.

[luuknam]

I don't know how old your son is, but I'm assuming a teenager if you're considering letting him stay home alone all day. In which case, yes, anxiety and insomnia etc suck, but they don't automatically make you noisy. You can be quietly anxious. So, I wouldn't be punishing the anxiety, just the noise.

[wendyroo]

I don't know how feasible it is with older kids, but we have simply stopped telling Peter (and subsequently the other kids) about anything anxiety-producing ahead of time.  When he is anxious about something he stops eating and sleeping and starts being much more impulsive, violent, destructive and disruptive.  Last month he found out, by accident, that he was due for a simple med check at the psychiatrist's; that precipitated an entire week of sleepless nights, vomiting, drawing on walls, hours of pacing, increased hitting and kicking, shredding and eating paper, etc.  It was hell for the entire family.

 

My parents are coming this afternoon to celebrate the 3 year old's birthday and that info is being guarded like a state secret.  I'm not even telling them now because Peter could easily work himself into a tizzy over the next few hours.  Everyone in our lives simply knows not to breathe one word about any upcoming plans, activities, outings, appointments, classes, etc.  Everything is on a need to know basis, and normally the kids don't need to know until it is time to get in the car.

 

Wendy

[Ravin]

I don't know how feasible it is with older kids, but we have simply stopped telling Peter (and subsequently the other kids) about anything anxiety-producing ahead of time.  When he is anxious about something he stops eating and sleeping and starts being much more impulsive, violent, destructive and disruptive.  Last month he found out, by accident, that he was due for a simple med check at the psychiatrist's; that precipitated an entire week of sleepless nights, vomiting, drawing on walls, hours of pacing, increased hitting and kicking, shredding and eating paper, etc.  It was hell for the entire family.

 

My parents are coming this afternoon to celebrate the 3 year old's birthday and that info is being guarded like a state secret.  I'm not even telling them now because Peter could easily work himself into a tizzy over the next few hours.  Everyone in our lives simply knows not to breathe one word about any upcoming plans, activities, outings, appointments, classes, etc.  Everything is on a need to know basis, and normally the kids don't need to know until it is time to get in the car.

 

Wendy

 

That wouldn't work with my DD. She pushes to know all the details, and will get anxious if you don't have everything scheduled in exacting detail when she asks. If you aren't specific enough, she will want to know why. She doesn't like surprises and likes to be in control, or at least in the know.

[wendyroo]

That wouldn't work with my DD. She pushes to know all the details, and will get anxious if you don't have everything scheduled in exacting detail when she asks. If you aren't specific enough, she will want to know why. She doesn't like surprises and likes to be in control, or at least in the know.

 

Yeah, I don't know how long it will work for Peter.  He also wants all the details, but ultimately knowing them isn't healthy for him.  Last week I told the kids we could go to the park after the baby's nap.  Peter kept pushing and pushing and pushing for a specific time.  He was fixating on it and completely losing control.  I finally told him we would go at 10:30 and he sat watching the clock, counting down the seconds and asking repeatedly if the clock was working for the next hour.  At 10:25 I told the kids it was time to get their shoes on, but Peter just burst into tears because he was sure we wouldn't be leaving on time.  Ironically, the other three kids and I were all ready with our shoes on at 10:30, and Peter was so uptight that he was in the bathroom thinking he was going to be sick...all over a stupid, ordinary trip to the park.  Life would have been soooooo much better if I had not said one word about the park until it was time to go.

 

Wendy

[wapiti]

(Trying to reach back in my memory - did you have a child with an episode of lyme and/or pans/pandas?)  FWIW, something that drives me nuts about my ds's issues is that there is no logic involved, and accordingly, If-Then punishment is inappropriate and ineffective at best.  As he is super-smart, exceedingly logical, and plenty old enough to "behave," it's just so frustrating that the logic part of his brain is not in control when he is in freak-out mode.   :grouphug:

[Jean in Newcastle]

You would punish for anxiety and insomnia?  I just cannot get over this. 

[OneStepAtATime]

1.  NO you do not have to follow through.  Punishing a child while they are in the middle of anxiety and panic and struggling with insomnia (which can increase anxiety and significantly reduce cognitive function) just creates even more of a negative environment, often creates more of a spiral down effect, and almost certainly guarantees just as bad if not a worse reaction the next time.   :grouphug:  I get it.  You were reacting in the moment and the punishment did not solve the issue.  It happens.  Please don't compound the problem by following through with a punishment that did not actually help at all.

 

2. Admit to him that the choices you made in the heat of the moment were not the best for helping him resolve his situation and you want to HELP him find better ways to handle insomnia and anxiety, not exacerbate them.

 

3.  IF all of you are up to going, then go.  Hug him, tell him you love him, and walk away from the issues last night for a bit.  Try to focus on the family bond and having a good time.  Deal with the rest when you have had some sleep and can think through better long term assistance for your son.

Edited August 5, 2016 by OneStepAtATime

[heartlikealion]

Yeah, I agree with a pp, maybe there's some aspect of the trip causing the anxiety. I know for me, it might be something embarrassing I didn't want to share with my friends like, "I don't know if I'll have to pee while I'm waiting in the long line for the roller coaster. I don't want to upset people." I was once invited to go to a water park when I was, I dunno, middle school age, with friends and I didn't want to go because I'd never been and I was kinda nervous but also because I had a monthly visitor. I felt like a freak for declining. Are you positive he wants to go?

 

I have been diagnosed with anxiety but I've never put the phrase "anxiety freak out" together. As a child I think I internalized a lot.

 

Oh my gosh please don't leave me in the dark. I cannot handle that method, either. I was given a surprise birthday as a child and I was so self- conscious about what I was wearing but since I didn't know it was going to happen that day I didn't plan accordingly. Planning ahead is one of the only ways I can reduce my stress/anxiety and when I can't plan ahead it makes me less likely to get involved. "Where is this event being held? What kind of parking situation are we looking at? (parallel parking sends me for the hills)" etc.

wendyroo, how far in advance are you telling him? Ds has trouble with transitions, which I think is a little different than general anxiety, so I will just give him a heads up and it could be as little as 10 min. but so he has time to adjust. Log off the game, brush your teeth, get on shoes, whatever.

[heartlikealion]

You would punish for anxiety and insomnia?  I just cannot get over this. 

 

Yeah, I think it was the loudness she was punishing him for. Like okay stay up but try not to disturb everyone else?

 

[OneStepAtATime]

I wonder if they went?  If so, I hope things went well, Farrar.  Good luck and best wishes.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Yeah, I think it was the loudness she was punishing him for. Like okay stay up but try not to disturb everyone else?

 

I wouldn't just leave a child having a panic attack alone to begin with. "Go ahead and have your panic attack but just don't bother the rest of us" seems. . . cold to me. And my kids have had panic attacks. I know they are difficult to watch. And I know that having some time to ramp down might be a good strategy before the attack is full blown. But a full fledged panic attack? No.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ravin]

I wouldn't just leave a child having a panic attack alone to begin with. "Go ahead and have your panic attack but just don't bother the rest of us" seems. . . cold to me. And my kids have had panic attacks. I know they are difficult to watch. And I know that having some time to ramp down might be a good strategy before the attack is full blown. But a full fledged panic attack? No.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

She used the words "anxiety freak-out" not "panic attack." My DD's anxiety freak-outs generally look an awful lot like temper tantrums. Not the same thing as a panic attack.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Since it's an ongoing thing with him I'd chalk that up to him not having full control over it.  So unless he is dangerously overtired I'd just go.

 

 

[katilac]

I don't know how old your son is, but I'm assuming a teenager if you're considering letting him stay home alone all day. In which case, yes, anxiety and insomnia etc suck, but they don't automatically make you noisy. You can be quietly anxious. So, I wouldn't be punishing the anxiety, just the noise.

 

 

Yeah, I think it was the loudness she was punishing him for. Like okay stay up but try not to disturb everyone else?

 

 

If you're having a panic attack, it really can be impossible to just sit and be quietly anxious, and that's what this sounds like to me. The OP uses words like freak out and hysterics, and says that he couldn't manage to stay in another room alone. That doesn't sound like a kid who can't sleep and is just being obnoxiously noisy - it sounds very much like a panic attack to me, or at the very least uncontrollable anxiety. 

 

Whatever you decide for today, OP, I'd definitely tell my son I made a mistake in the heat of the moment. Nobody wants to have an anxiety freakout - a panic attack can feel like a heart attack, you really think you might die. It's not fun, and it can't be disciplined away. Insomnia is no picnic either, and sleep deprivation can make you pretty much insane, lol. 

 

He needs to see both a doctor and a therapist if he hasn't. A medical doctor to rule out physical causes for the insomnia, and therapist for the anxiety. 

 

Also - is he on any medications? Allergy meds in particular can cause bad reactions, including insomnia and some general bat shit craziness. But it could be any med or even a supplement, it's something to check. 

[idnib]

As someone who is a stickler for following through, I would not follow through. I would explain in a moment of stress I had made a bad suggestion based on something he over which he has limited control and that we would all go to Six Flags if he's not too tired.

 

It's valid to explain that and just you stay home with him as well. If he feels too tired maybe he would like if you stayed back with him and spent the day resting, talking, eating snacks, watching movies, etc.

 

I don't think you should leave him alone. It sends the wrong message to someone suffering from anxiety and insomnia.

 

:grouphug:

[heartlikealion]

If you're having a panic attack, it really can be impossible to just sit and be quietly anxious, and that's what this sounds like to me. The OP uses words like freak out and hysterics, and says that he couldn't manage to stay in another room alone. That doesn't sound like a kid who can't sleep and is just being obnoxiously noisy - it sounds very much like a panic attack to me, or at the very least uncontrollable anxiety. 

 

Whatever you decide for today, OP, I'd definitely tell my son I made a mistake in the heat of the moment. Nobody wants to have an anxiety freakout - a panic attack can feel like a heart attack, you really think you might die. It's not fun, and it can't be disciplined away. Insomnia is no picnic either, and sleep deprivation can make you pretty much insane, lol. 

 

He needs to see both a doctor and a therapist if he hasn't. A medical doctor to rule out physical causes for the insomnia, and therapist for the anxiety. 

 

Also - is he on any medications? Allergy meds in particular can cause bad reactions, including insomnia and some general bat shit craziness. But it could be any med or even a supplement, it's something to check. 

 

Again, it's unclear if it's having an actual panic attack. Those are not the words the OP used.

 

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

She used the words "anxiety freak-out" not "panic attack." My DD's anxiety freak-outs generally look an awful lot like temper tantrums. Not the same thing as a panic attack.

 

This. Anxiety is not always panic. Often here, the anxiety takes the form of snippy, snarky haranguing that I can only put up with for so long, because none of my answers/suggestions/solutions/responses are acceptable. If I can get away from the haranguing, the child in question can usually de-escalate on her own. If I'm involved, it's like I'm a wall that needs to be battered down instead. So while it's not really ideal, I can see where a desperate, exhausted mom might say something like, "Do whatever you need to do, but go do it elsewhere." 

 

:grouphug:  to all of you, Farrar. I hope you managed to smooth things over and get to Six Flags today, and that everyone has a good time (and no exhaustion-related meltdowns are had, on anyone's part!). 

Edited August 5, 2016 by ILiveInFlipFlops

[Ravin]

If you're having a panic attack, it really can be impossible to just sit and be quietly anxious, and that's what this sounds like to me. The OP uses words like freak out and hysterics, and says that he couldn't manage to stay in another room alone. That doesn't sound like a kid who can't sleep and is just being obnoxiously noisy - it sounds very much like a panic attack to me, or at the very least uncontrollable anxiety. 

 

Whatever you decide for today, OP, I'd definitely tell my son I made a mistake in the heat of the moment. Nobody wants to have an anxiety freakout - a panic attack can feel like a heart attack, you really think you might die. It's not fun, and it can't be disciplined away. Insomnia is no picnic either, and sleep deprivation can make you pretty much insane, lol. 

 

He needs to see both a doctor and a therapist if he hasn't. A medical doctor to rule out physical causes for the insomnia, and therapist for the anxiety. 

 

Also - is he on any medications? Allergy meds in particular can cause bad reactions, including insomnia and some general bat shit craziness. But it could be any med or even a supplement, it's something to check. 

 

I deal with this sort of thing with my DD, and she IS on medication (it's much, much worse in various ways  when she's not), prescribed by a pediatric psychiatrist, and she DOES see a therapist, and HAS seen a doctor to rule out physical  causes. Even when things are "under control" it's not always a walk in the park. None of those things are an instant or 100% cure even in combination.

 

And anxiety freakout is not necessarily the same thing as a panic attack.

 

Don't assume that a parent isn't handling the overall situation of a child's illness poorly just because they are processing discipline issues and where the line is between illness and bad behavior that a kid can control. It sounds from the OP that her son has a coping strategy plan, that he didn't follow it, and didn't do what he's usually able to do to handle his insomnia and/or anxiety freak-out, and that she as the mom gave a consequence for not doing what she knows he is usually capable of, which she is now second-guessing, and is now second-guessing her second-guessing based on the school of thought that you should always follow through on discipline threats.

 

Read what I wrote previously about engaging = spinning up worse than just leaving the kid alone for  awhile. 

 

I also don't think that things said in the heat of the moment when one is not at one's best are what needs to be followed up on. If you tell a child when they are calm, when you are calm, here is the reasonable consequences for X, that's a different situation, especially if you then change your mind because of child's upset/freakout.

[sbgrace]

When my son is in emotional meltdown--and I think you're describing what I've seen around sleep and other issues--he is not thinking clearly. He's acting out of the emotional part of his brain and so is not in control nor making rational decisions. Consequences aren't effective in that situation because rational isn't in control.

 

I think I would admit my mistake (mom doesn't think well when tired and upset either) in giving that particular consequence, talk about how six flags might not be as fun tired so we need to figure out how to manage the insomnia (cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia and anxiety or seeing a sleep medicine psych perhaps?)

 

I feel for all of you. I've had similar episodes with my son. We're doing an insomnia clinic through the sleep medicine people in our children's hospital and it has been helpful.

Edited August 5, 2016 by sbgrace

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Ravin, I like your posts in Farrar's defense here.

 

At our house, there's a spectrum even within one child's range of coping abilities...does that make sense...and different responses "work" for different stages or levels. As the child grows or dynamics change in other ways, the lines get blurry and we have to redefine what works all over again...puberty being the WORST stage for that...

 

I'm not assuming nothin' about nobody based on one sleep-deprived interaction. We can't help each other if we do that.

[SparklyUnicorn]

This. Anxiety is not always panic. Often here, the anxiety takes the form of snippy, snarky haranguing that I can only put up with for so long, because none of my answers/suggestions/solutions/responses are acceptable. If I can get away from the haranguing, the child in question can usually de-escalate on her own. If I'm involved, it's like I'm a wall that needs to be battered down instead. So while it's not really ideal, I can see where a desperate, exhausted mom might say something like, "Do whatever you need to do, but go do it elsewhere." 

 

:grouphug:  to all of you, Farrar. I hope you managed to smooth things over and get to Six Flags today, and that everyone has a good time (and no exhaustion-related meltdowns are had, on anyone's part!). 

 

Although they seem to be used interchangeably.  Is there an actual clinical difference?

[Ravin]

This. Anxiety is not always panic. Often here, the anxiety takes the form of snippy, snarky haranguing that I can only put up with for so long, because none of my answers/suggestions/solutions/responses are acceptable. If I can get away from the haranguing, the child in question can usually de-escalate on her own. If I'm involved, it's like I'm a wall that needs to be battered down instead. So while it's not really ideal, I can see where a desperate, exhausted mom might say something like, "Do whatever you need to do, but go do it elsewhere." 

 

:grouphug:  to all of you, Farrar. I hope you managed to smooth things over and get to Six Flags today, and that everyone has a good time (and no exhaustion-related meltdowns are had, on anyone's part!). 

 

My DD does this, too. Frequently. :grouphug:

[katilac]

Again, it's unclear if it's having an actual panic attack. Those are not the words the OP used.

 

 

I understand that it's unclear if it was an actual panic attack. The OP didn't clarify that it wasn't a panic attack (which I would certainly do if I knew it wasn't, and I was talking about punishing for it), and really it might be very hard for an observer to know unless they have been working closely with a therapist. 

 

And (granted that the info is limited) it certainly sounds like it was an anxiety attack at the least. That's not something you punish for, especially a pre-teen who is going to have less maturity and less experience in dealing with it. Might you need to deal with the actions caused by anxiety, like being loud at night or having a meltdown? Yes, but when it's this bad, you really need to be getting coping strategies from a therapist. 

 

It's possible a therapist would advise not going on the trip if the kid can't sleep and has severe anxiety the night before, but the reasons and the way it's carried out would be very different. If a therapist did advise this strategy, I would be running to a new one. 

 

The kid isn't suffering from lack of sleep and anxiety to amuse himself, y'know? And usually observers, even close family members, only see the tip of the iceberg of what is going on in the person's mind. The hidden anxiety is even worse, which is why a therapist is so important. 

 

Please note that, for all I know, the OP might already have a therapist. She didn't say, so I'm erring on the side of mentioning the importance of it (along with a physical checkup). You want a therapist who will work with the child, and also work with the parent on effective coping strategies - what will help, what might do more harm than good. 

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Although they seem to be used interchangeably.  Is there an actual clinical difference?

 

I couldn't say for sure. But I know I have anxiety over leaving the house when I know my stomach is likely to be upset and panic at the idea of having to drive over an unexpected bridge, so I'm guessing there's a spectrum, with mild anxiety at one end and full blown panic and something like, say, agoraphobia or OCD on the other. That's just me guessing based on my own experiences though!

[OneStepAtATime]

Bottom line, parenting is hard, and parenting a child with anxiety, suffering from insomnia, etc. is doubly hard.  Good luck OP.  I hope things are much better today.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I understand that it's unclear if it was an actual panic attack. The OP didn't clarify that it wasn't a panic attack (which I would certainly do if I knew it wasn't, and I was talking about punishing for it), and really it might be very hard for an observer to know unless they have been working closely with a therapist. 

 

And (granted that the info is limited) it certainly sounds like it was an anxiety attack at the least. That's not something you punish for, especially a pre-teen who is going to have less maturity and less experience in dealing with it. Might you need to deal with the actions caused by anxiety, like being loud at night or having a meltdown? Yes, but when it's this bad, you really need to be getting coping strategies from a therapist. 

 

It's possible a therapist would advise not going on the trip if the kid can't sleep and has severe anxiety the night before, but the reasons and the way it's carried out would be very different. If a therapist did advise this strategy, I would be running to a new one. 

 

The kid isn't suffering from lack of sleep and anxiety to amuse himself, y'know? And usually observers, even close family members, only see the tip of the iceberg of what is going on in the person's mind. The hidden anxiety is even worse, which is why a therapist is so important. 

 

Please note that, for all I know, the OP might already have a therapist. She didn't say, so I'm erring on the side of mentioning the importance of it (along with a physical checkup). You want a therapist who will work with the child, and also work with the parent on effective coping strategies - what will help, what might do more harm than good. 

 

 

I don't disagree with you at all. I would just hate to see anyone here being unduly harsh with Farrar--who, in general, seems to be a very caring, compassionate, thinking mom and not a harsh, knee-jerk disciplinarian--when we really have very few details. And especially when those details were shared at 2:24 a.m. (her time) when everyone was sleep-deprived and emotionally spent!