UPDATE in 456ish: Older boy in women's locker room WWYD

[T'smom]

As naturally happens in this kind of thread, this discussion has moved away from the facts in this particular case to experiences and different varied facilities. Which I totally expected and understand as we like to talk these things through ;).

 

For those who don't want to wade through everything to find the particulars in this situation, I'll summarize and add some details.

 

Kids 0-4 are allowed in the opposite gender locker room. 5 and older must use their own gender's room or one of two family bathrooms if accompanied by an adult who has requested a key.

 

The family bathrooms are spacious and open directly to the pool area. They can definitely be busy at times, but ON THIS DAY ONE WAS OPEN. The woman lied about the staff running out of keys.

 

This is a 2-hour homeschool swimming block from 11-1, including 30 minutes of lessons. This boy's lesson finished at 12:05, so there was lots of time for the mom to plan access to the family room before 1:00. There are only 22 kids ages 3-10 in lessons that day, plus a few assorted homeschoolers who are members and come to hang out for free time and don't pay for the class (an incredibly reasonable $5 for non-members).

 

Most people leave by 12:30, so the family rooms have little to no wait after then. There were 2-3 other boys ages 6-10 changing in the men's room at 1:00 when this lady came in.

 

The locker rooms are not huge or maze-like. Easy in and out. I can hear every word my son says when I stand in the doorway. The men's room is exactly like the women's, with 6 curtained shower stalls, 3 doored changing stalls, and an open locker area. The only difference is the substitution of urinals for part of the toilet stalls. They are around a wall from the locker area.

 

The mom and boys were in and out in 5 minutes (during which it was unusually, completely, silent).

 

No one has answered my question about whether a typical 7-10 year old could be expected to enter the men's room with just his trunks, towel, underwear, and pants and return unscathed on the other side where mom is waiting, able to hear his every word. She can even call in to tell him to hurry, and this alert possible predators to the fact that he's not truly alone. My son is low on executive function skills, but he could do that much at 5 1/2 with me coaching and talking him through it beforehand. I really don't see what could possibly happen in 5 minutes in this situation.

I believe most 7-10 year olds and even a few 6 yos could handle that! I have an 8 yo boy who would rather die than go into a women's restroom, let alone locker room!

[EmseB]

I just want to clarify that I don't think *you* are unusually shame-filled or prudish, or anything else like that.

 

You are a normal member of your culture, probably right in the middle of the majority. You (like everyone else) have been through the process of childhood socialization (being taught to behave in a civilized manner) and you -- like everyone else -- feel uncomfortable when you don't follow the norms of your society.

 

That's absolutely how sociology works.

 

It's just that, correctly labelling the norms of our societies, and the reasons behind them involves noticing that -- on a grand scale -- these rules are arbitrary, and vary from culture to culture. These particular norms are shame norms, used to facilitate a 'civilized' type of behaviour with respect to sex, gender and sexuality. That's not about you, specifically at all. That's just the correct formal/factual vocabulary to discribe the culture-wide phenomenon.

 

Right.  I guess I meant I'm absolutely fine with the shame norms we have, in contrast with some other posters who were saying our (culture/society) attitudes about nudity are ridiculous.

 

My personal standards about dress and undress aren't entirely what I would consider arbitrary (as I do have reasons for them that aren't simply based on what everyone else in society does), but I absolutely recognize that other cultures have different attitudes about nudity.

[brehon]

In the summertime in the south, my elderly relatives start peeling off clothes as soon as the men leave, when they're visiting. They hang out in their fancy old lady slips, with all their jewelry and make up and their roller-set hairdos. I love LOVE it. It was like this whole other way of existing in the world and I got to be part of the club. I stayed fully dressed though LOL

OMG!!! You just brought back a fantastic memory of my great-grandmother, grandmother, a couple adult female cousins, and mom doing this on many a summer's eve. They all had hand fans they used, too. As I recall, the after supper the men went on the front porch and the women sat in the parlor sipping <ahem> iced tea.

 

What a trip down memory lane. Thanks.

[wendyroo]

No one has answered my question about whether a typical 7-10 year old could be expected to enter the men's room with just his trunks, towel, underwear, and pants and return unscathed on the other side where mom is waiting, able to hear his every word. She can even call in to tell him to hurry, and this alert possible predators to the fact that he's not truly alone. My son is low on executive function skills, but he could do that much at 5 1/2 with me coaching and talking him through it beforehand. I really don't see what could possibly happen in 5 minutes in this situation.

 

I think the problem lies in the word "typical".  Peter will turn 7 in about a month and he certainly looks typical.  He takes normal swim lessons and parents of his classmates would probably think he is typical, if a bit quirky and out of sync.

 

Physically and intellectually he would have no problem changing out of his swim trunks, but functionally it would be very hit and miss.  For the past 6 months I have been having him practice changing in the family change room right next to where I am dealing with the three younger kids.  Several times he went in, used the toilet, forgot what he was supposed to be doing and came back to the room I was in.  One time I went to check on him after I got myself and the little kids changed and Peter was hypnotically adjusting the shower, hot, cold, blast, trickle, back and forth...he hates showers and never planned to use it, but he just got sidetracked for 20 minutes.

 

I would be very nervous about sending Peter into a men's locker room on his own.  I don't worry about anyone doing anything to him, but I do worry about him getting hopelessly distracted or inappropriately bothering other people in there.

 

Wendy

[umsami]

Honestly if for whatever reason I felt I had to bring my 10 year old in the women's locker room, I'd simply have him turn around and face the locker while people were dressing.

 

A six year old, though, i would not send alone to the men's locker room.

 

I would talk to the lady alone first before alerting staff.  Knowing me, I'd also probably talk to them about the 5+ rule and changing it to be maybe 7+.

[gardenmom5]

 

No one has answered my question about whether a typical 7-10 year old could be expected to enter the men's room with just his trunks, towel, underwear, and pants and return unscathed

 

 

my aspie was going in the men's dressing room, by himself, getting showered and dressed, at six (when we scheduled during times the family dressing room was busy.).  he also managed to remember all of his stuff.   by seven, he didn't dwadle as much.

[luuknam]

No one has answered my question about whether a typical 7-10 year old could be expected to enter the men's room with just his trunks, towel, underwear, and pants and return unscathed on the other side where mom is waiting, able to hear his every word. She can even call in to tell him to hurry, and this alert possible predators to the fact that he's not truly alone

 

I thought my answer pretty much implied that yes, I think normal 7-10yos could be expected to use the locker room alone. My high-functioning autistic kid sort of could at 7 (but took for-ev-er to the point of me sending in staff more than once), but after switching to the family locker room for a few months he was fine switching back to the boys' locker room at about 7.5yo. So, if a high-functioning autistic kid who (in 2nd grade) got 4.5 hours of OT/PT/speech therapy at school every week and a full time 1-1 aide at school could do it at 7.5yo, I think it'd be trivial for normal 7-10yos.

 

That said, there are plenty of people who think my kid is normal, including some people who should know better (e.g. the former spec ed kindergarten teacher turned homeschool mom I talked to last week), though there are other people who think it's quite obvious my kid is on the spectrum. So, just because you think a kid is normal doesn't necessarily mean the kid is.

[AndyJoy]

I thought my answer pretty much implied that yes, I think normal 7-10yos could be expected to use the locker room alone. My high-functioning autistic kid sort of could at 7 (but took for-ev-er to the point of me sending in staff more than once), but after switching to the family locker room for a few months he was fine switching back to the boys' locker room at about 7.5yo. So, if a high-functioning autistic kid who (in 2nd grade) got 4.5 hours of OT/PT/speech therapy at school every week and a full time 1-1 aide at school could do it at 7.5yo, I think it'd be trivial for normal 7-10yos.

 

That said, there are plenty of people who think my kid is normal, including some people who should know better (e.g. the former spec ed kindergarten teacher turned homeschool mom I talked to last week), though there are other people who think it's quite obvious my kid is on the spectrum. So, just because you think a kid is normal doesn't necessarily mean the kid is.

Sorry I might have missed an answer. My original was really aimed that those who said there was no way their neurotypical boy would be in the men's room before 8-10.

[LucyStoner]

I think that most kids ages 7-10 can handle the locker room on their own. That said, most does not equal all and it's really dicey to think that one can discern on sight alone who is typical and who might have some challenges. I default to assuming that the parent is the authority on knowing what their child can and can not handle.

 

My new 7 year old would probably scream bloody murder if someone he didn't know was where he was changing. I send him into the boys restroom alone in reasonably safe situations (yes library and restaurants, no airports or stadiums with multiple exits) and unless his brother is with him, he will screech and run out if he sees someone in the restroom he doesn't know. Do I like this? No, no I do not. Can I instantly change this? No, no I can not. :P

Edited January 29, 2016 by LucyStoner

[bolt.]

Right. I guess I meant I'm absolutely fine with the shame norms we have, in contrast with some other posters who were saying our (culture/society) attitudes about nudity are ridiculous.

 

My personal standards about dress and undress aren't entirely what I would consider arbitrary (as I do have reasons for them that aren't simply based on what everyone else in society does), but I absolutely recognize that other cultures have different attitudes about nudity.

Being absolutely fine with your culture's norms is normal. Meshing them into the logic of your entire worldview is very sensible and natural. (Questioning whether one's local norms make sense or not is unusual.) Edited January 29, 2016 by bolt.

[Kerileanne99]

I just asked my hubby what he thought, and he added an interesting point. I would have zero problem sending my dd6 into get changed or use a restroom on her own. He said, "yeah, BUT...when he takes dd6 to the restroom/locker room and sends her in whilst waiting outside, he knows that if she runs into trouble almost any day woman will help her. He has run into this several times with things like not being able to reach the soap or dry her suit. He said he would NOT, nor would any guy he knows, be comfortable helping a boy in the bathroom or locker room.

That hadn't really occurred to me, but I can totally see that.

[Jyhwkmama]

She should use the family changing room. That is why it is there! I hope the OP gets help from the gym staff.

 

For those who were aghast that 2 was the age at the facility I belonged to, it would not be an inonvienence even if I had taken my kids. That facility knew how to do a family locker room right. Big open locker area with 6 individual changing/ shower rooms. No key required. I am modest and felt very comfortable with the below 2 rule. Families had family changing rooms.

[8circles]

As naturally happens in this kind of thread, this discussion has moved away from the facts in this particular case to experiences and different varied facilities. Which I totally expected and understand as we like to talk these things through ;).

 

For those who don't want to wade through everything to find the particulars in this situation, I'll summarize and add some details.

 

Kids 0-4 are allowed in the opposite gender locker room. 5 and older must use their own gender's room or one of two family bathrooms if accompanied by an adult who has requested a key.

 

The family bathrooms are spacious and open directly to the pool area. They can definitely be busy at times, but ON THIS DAY ONE WAS OPEN. The woman lied about the staff running out of keys.

 

This is a 2-hour homeschool swimming block from 11-1, including 30 minutes of lessons. This boy's lesson finished at 12:05, so there was lots of time for the mom to plan access to the family room before 1:00. There are only 22 kids ages 3-10 in lessons that day, plus a few assorted homeschoolers who are members and come to hang out for free time and don't pay for the class (an incredibly reasonable $5 for non-members).

 

Most people leave by 12:30, so the family rooms have little to no wait after then. There were 2-3 other boys ages 6-10 changing in the men's room at 1:00 when this lady came in.

 

The locker rooms are not huge or maze-like. Easy in and out. I can hear every word my son says when I stand in the doorway. The men's room is exactly like the women's, with 6 curtained shower stalls, 3 doored changing stalls, and an open locker area. The only difference is the substitution of urinals for part of the toilet stalls. They are around a wall from the locker area.

 

The mom and boys were in and out in 5 minutes (during which it was unusually, completely, silent).

 

No one has answered my question about whether a typical 7-10 year old could be expected to enter the men's room with just his trunks, towel, underwear, and pants and return unscathed on the other side where mom is waiting, able to hear his every word. She can even call in to tell him to hurry, and this alert possible predators to the fact that he's not truly alone. My son is low on executive function skills, but he could do that much at 5 1/2 with me coaching and talking him through it beforehand. I really don't see what could possibly happen in 5 minutes in this situation.

 

I'll answer your last question first.

 

I think it probably depends.  DS12 & DS10 could have at 8.  DS8 could not be trusted to make the right decisions.  All together?  Yes, they'd probably be alright assuming they're having good days.  I'd take my 5 year-old with me in the women's room, regardless what rules were posted.  

 

I think the woman in the OP who had another choice should have/could have made a better choice.  But I'm willing to allow for circumstances that we don't know about. 

 

I think this whole issue is much ado about nothing.  People feel uncomfortable with all kinds of things.  Things that bother me are no big deal to other people & vice-versa.  It would bother me absolutely 0 to have a 10 year-old boy see me undress, unless he was obviously ogling or something else creepy.  I'd rather they saw real women naked than look them up online, which happens when kids are curious.  

 

I think it's unfortunate that some people are uncomfortable with the opposite sex child seeing them naked.  I don't think anyone would make people uncomfortable like that on purpose, there's probably always a reason.  But I am one of *those moms* who thinks that I need to do what I think is best for my kids & that takes precedence over other people's discomfort when it's actually harmless.   I wouldn't take my 12 or 10 year-old with me, but for sure my 5 year-old and my 8 year-old it would depend on the day & exact facilities.  I would also be prepared for people to make comments or report me & I'd take my chances & deal with the consequences if it happened.  ETA:  That's not being entitled, it's being a mom to the kids I have... I expect everyone else to do the same, even if sometimes those things are in conflict.  Hopefully, some compromise could be reached, if parties are willing.

Edited January 29, 2016 by 8circles

[8circles]

I just asked my hubby what he thought, and he added an interesting point. I would have zero problem sending my dd6 into get changed or use a restroom on her own. He said, "yeah, BUT...when he takes dd6 to the restroom/locker room and sends her in whilst waiting outside, he knows that if she runs into trouble almost any day woman will help her. He has run into this several times with things like not being able to reach the soap or dry her suit. He said he would NOT, nor would any guy he knows, be comfortable helping a boy in the bathroom or locker room.

That hadn't really occurred to me, but I can totally see that.

 

YES!  I was going to say this exact same thing.  & there's more likely not to be any men in there to help, even if they would.

[Pen]

Alert the staff.

 

A pool I used to go to at one point set up a couple of shower heads by the pool and a few curtained areas where people could get changed because of lack of sufficient number of family rooms to accommodate those needing family rooms.  It was an easier fix than building more family rooms. That way the family rooms could be used by slower disabled people more, and the curtained areas could be used by older kids who were not yet ready to go it alone in the proper gendered room. It seems like the basic issue is lack of family room space (in general, even if that day there was space), not that the woman probably wants her too old for the rules boy to be in the women's room.

[Valley Girl]

 

I think this whole issue is much ado about nothing.  People feel uncomfortable with all kinds of things.  Things that bother me are no big deal to other people & vice-versa.  It would bother me absolutely 0 to have a 10 year-old boy see me undress, unless he was obviously ogling or something else creepy.  I'd rather they saw real women naked than look them up online, which happens when kids are curious.  

 

I think it's unfortunate that some people are uncomfortable with the opposite sex child seeing them naked.  I don't think anyone would make people uncomfortable like that on purpose, there's probably always a reason.  But I am one of *those moms* who thinks that I need to do what I think is best for my kids & that takes precedence over other people's discomfort when it's actually harmless. 

But that's YOUR comfort level--it's not necessarily the same for others. If you're OK with it, great. But there's nothing "unfortunate" about some people not wanting older opposite sex children seeing them unclothed. You say you'd rather your kids see real women. Seems to me the women being viewed should have some say about that.

[8circles]

But that's YOUR comfort level--it's not necessarily the same for others. If you're OK with it, great. But there's nothing "unfortunate" about some people not wanting older opposite sex children seeing them unclothed. You say you'd rather your kids see real women. Seems to me the women being viewed should have some say about that.

 

I'm not sure that we disagree here.  I agree that we have different comfort levels - I said as much.  I also happen to have an opinion about someone else's comfort level being unfortunate.  I don't believe it's a good thing that so many people are uncomfortable in this situation.  But it is reality.  An unfortunate one IMO.

 

Yes - other women are welcome to their own feelings & can decide to report me if they want.  I support that.

[Wheres Toto]

No one has answered my question about whether a typical 7-10 year old could be expected to enter the men's room with just his trunks, towel, underwear, and pants and return unscathed on the other side where mom is waiting, able to hear his every word. She can even call in to tell him to hurry, and this alert possible predators to the fact that he's not truly alone. My son is low on executive function skills, but he could do that much at 5 1/2 with me coaching and talking him through it beforehand. I really don't see what could possibly happen in 5 minutes in this situation.

 

 

Quote didn't work but - Yes, my 10 year old could do this.  He does, although he also rinses off in the shower.

 

My 10 year old son would also be very embarrassed going in the women's locker room where women are changing.   My 8 year old daughter would be uncomfortable changing in front of boys her age or older.  If they were strangers.  My kids see each other naked periodically while changing or coming and going from the bath. We only have one bathroom and it's small. 

[T'smom]

I'll answer your last question first.

 

I think it probably depends. DS12 & DS10 could have at 8. DS8 could not be trusted to make the right decisions. All together? Yes, they'd probably be alright assuming they're having good days. I'd take my 5 year-old with me in the women's room, regardless what rules were posted.

 

I think the woman in the OP who had another choice should have/could have made a better choice. But I'm willing to allow for circumstances that we don't know about.

 

I think this whole issue is much ado about nothing. People feel uncomfortable with all kinds of things. Things that bother me are no big deal to other people & vice-versa. It would bother me absolutely 0 to have a 10 year-old boy see me undress, unless he was obviously ogling or something else creepy. I'd rather they saw real women naked than look them up online, which happens when kids are curious.

 

I think it's unfortunate that some people are uncomfortable with the opposite sex child seeing them naked. I don't think anyone would make people uncomfortable like that on purpose, there's probably always a reason. But I am one of *those moms* who thinks that I need to do what I think is best for my kids & that takes precedence over other people's discomfort when it's actually harmless. I wouldn't take my 12 or 10 year-old with me, but for sure my 5 year-old and my 8 year-old it would depend on the day & exact facilities. I would also be prepared for people to make comments or report me & I'd take my chances & deal with the consequences if it happened. ETA: That's not being entitled, it's being a mom to the kids I have... I expect everyone else to do the same, even if sometimes those things are in conflict. Hopefully, some compromise could be reached, if parties are willing.

It wouldn't bother me much to have a boy in the locker room with me, but it does bother me to think of my dd changing in front of boys. I am pretty adept at changing quickly and with a towel wrapped around me. The last time we were in a locker room, my naked 5 year old decided that socks were going to be the first thing she put on and she was hopping around trying to put her socks on. In a couple years, she will probably be much more modest, but still not coordinated enough to change as quickly and modestly as I could. (my skills were developed in high school where we often changed clothes on school buses on band trips!)

[Mom2Five]

Could a typical 7-10 year old be expected to do that? Yes

Would I let mine? No

I would use the family restroom or wait until we were home. We are in FL so weather is not a problem.

A lot can happen in 5 min.

I think it depends on the parents comfort level etc.

I've has a few things *almost* happen in 5 minutes, but thank God they did not.

[Katy]

They started a women's only swim in the Dutch town I grew up in when I was a teen or so (probably because of the large and increasing Muslim population). And I think there was some pushback, e.g. if they want to move to NL, they can learn Dutch cultural norms. And fwiw, it's not like all Europeans walk around naked everywhere. IIRC all of the pools I went to in NL had individual stalls to change in.

 

 

I specifically was wondering why the 18yos aren't allowed in the men's/women's locker rooms/sauna. Usually, 18yo is seen as adult... why do they have to be 19 for that? (and yes, it was made very clear that you have to be 19, not 18, even if I maybe wrote it in an ambiguous way in my post)

 

My guess is they had a problem with high school seniors using the sauna for cutting weight.  Most 19 year olds are in college, though that will probably change in the next decade as more and more people redshirt their boys. If they get a wrestling scholarship, the college gym will have a sauna and that Y or whatever won't have kids doing risky things like staying in a sauna too long on their property.

[Pen]

 

No one has answered my question about whether a typical 7-10 year old could be expected to enter the men's room with just his trunks, towel, underwear, and pants and return unscathed on the other side where mom is waiting, able to hear his every word. She can even call in to tell him to hurry, and this alert possible predators to the fact that he's not truly alone. My son is low on executive function skills, but he could do that much at 5 1/2 with me coaching and talking him through it beforehand. I really don't see what could possibly happen in 5 minutes in this situation.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes. I used to teach swimming at a Y at a time when kids were usually dropped off by parents, or parents went to other activities elsewhere in building rather than parents staying to supervise and help with dressing. The boys in tadpole or polliwogs or minnow or whatever the lowest level was, often as young as 5-6ish year olds usually did just fine all by themselves.  When it was swim class time there would not have been a bunch of adult men in there though, just kids.  

 

My ds started going into men's changing room alone at a very large  outdoor public swimming area when he was around 7. Sometimes he'd be wearing a wetsuit which was a bit hard for him to manage so I often unzipped it (zip in back) for him before he'd go in.  I waited in calling distance when he was that young. By 8 or 9 he'd go with me farther away or myself perhaps in the women's part.

[aggieamy]

By 10, my DD was embarrassed to have ME see her naked, let alone a strange boy her age.

 

My DD would DIE if a boy her age saw her naked in the locker room.  If it was a boy from her school ... double DIE. 

[EmseB]

Being absolutely fine with your culture's norms is normal. Meshing them into the logic of your entire worldview is very sensible and natural. (Questioning whether one's local norms make sense or not is unusual.)

Ok. My original response was to those who were saying certain views on nudity were ridiculous. My response was to say that I have no shame about having shame being naked in front of tween boys. No, I'm not okay with being naked in front of them or older males. I'm not sure what you're trying to tell me, unless just a general sociology lesson?

[Meriwether]

If I saw a boy over 6 or so in the womens' changing room, I would report them. I wouldn't be thrilled to have them in there for my sake, but my Dd12 would be horrified. Frankly, I don't care how inconvenient it would be for the other parent. (Note that I have two boys. I've dealt with my share of awkward situations.) My daughter has a right to not have a boy close to her age in her changing room.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Meriwether

[Laura Corin]

Sorry I might have missed an answer. My original was really aimed that those who said there was no way their neurotypical boy would be in the men's room before 8-10.

 

I know that my boys were changing in the men's changing room when they were aged 6 and 10.  I think that I would have kept the 6yo with me if he had been on his own, just because his Chinese wasn't yet very fluent, and I would have been concerned that he wouldn't necessarily have been able to ask for help if necessary.  The 10yo would have known to come out and find me somehow.

[SKL]

My kids (girls) have been able to take care of all their needs in the locker room without me for years.  When they were 7 I would often drop them off and pick them up outside the door of the rec center.  Or I would instruct them to change into their soccer practice clothes after swim team and walk themselves over to the soccer field and I'd meet them after soccer practice.

 

Before they joined swim team at age 7, I was required to accompany them to the "natatorium," but I would work on my computer while they did their thing, and they would come and fetch me after they finished changing.  I can't remember exactly when they were ready to go it alone in the locker room, but certainly long before 7yo.

 

Did they always behave exactly the way I thought they should?  No, but perfect is in Heaven.  There was nothing they did in the locker room that couldn't be sorted out later.

 

I know someone is going to say, "yeah, but you could always go into the locker room and help them if they needed help."  Yes, I guess so, but I don't think it's that much different from asking a male staff member to go look in on a school-aged boy who is taking forever in the locker room.

 

Now I am wondering how they do this at day camps at the rec center.  They swim every day and parents are not around.  I doubt they herd all the boys into the ladies' locker room after swimming.  Nor do I assume there is a guy who goes in and watches the boys dress.  I assume the children all figure it out.  I assume that parents select swimwear their young kids can handle on their own.

[rocassie]

If there is a family changing option, then use that option.  Even if you have to wait in line.  

 

At our local beach, no one under 4 can be in the opposite gender changing room, but there is no family option only male or female.  My 4yo DS can't even get his bathing suit off (when wet) to use the bathroom let alone change.  When I go by myself, I take him in with me, but otherwise he goes with DH. We try to honor the rule, but sometimes you have to use common sense.

 

We recently went to a waterpark while DH was at a work conference (the waterpark was were the conference was being held).  If you had a mixed gender group (which I was since I had DS with the two older girls) we were supposed to use the family changing rooms.  So we used them until I realized there were no bathrooms just changing stalls.  DS (4) as well as all the rest of us needed to use the bathroom.  DS still needs helps so in he came with us to the bathroom.

 

I'm not sure what the "perfect" age is but I don't think the desires/comfort of one family should outway the desires/comfort of everyone else.  If a place has made accommodations for mixed genders, people with unique/special circumstances, and families, use them.  Hopefully this will become more prevalent, accessible, and plentiful everywhere to meet these needs.

[Sherry in OH]

...

 

No one has answered my question about whether a typical 7-10 year old could be expected to enter the men's room with just his trunks, towel, underwear, and pants and return unscathed on the other side where mom is waiting, able to hear his every word. She can even call in to tell him to hurry, and this alert possible predators to the fact that he's not truly alone. My son is low on executive function skills, but he could do that much at 5 1/2 with me coaching and talking him through it beforehand. I really don't see what could possibly happen in 5 minutes in this situation.

 

Yes, a typical 7-10 year old could navigate the men’s locker room alone.  He wouldn’t emerge in five minutes though.  Maybe 15.    But that is irrelevant in the described scenario because the options weren’t go into the men’s locker room alone or accompany mom into the women’s locker room.  A third option existed – use a family locker room. 

 

I would complain to both the front desk staff and the swim instructor.  I would also encourage other women and girls to complain. If obtaining keys to the family room is a problem she can suggest that Y rework that system.

 

I would also complain if my sons reported that a man had brought school-age girls into the men’s locker room.  

[Bluegoat]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes. I used to teach swimming at a Y at a time when kids were usually dropped off by parents, or parents went to other activities elsewhere in building rather than parents staying to supervise and help with dressing. The boys in tadpole or polliwogs or minnow or whatever the lowest level was, often as young as 5-6ish year olds usually did just fine all by themselves.  When it was swim class time there would not have been a bunch of adult men in there though, just kids.  

 

My ds started going into men's changing room alone at a very large  outdoor public swimming area when he was around 7. Sometimes he'd be wearing a wetsuit which was a bit hard for him to manage so I often unzipped it (zip in back) for him before he'd go in.  I waited in calling distance when he was that young. By 8 or 9 he'd go with me farther away or myself perhaps in the women's part.

 

 

Yes, my mom didn't used to come in the locker room with us when we were kids in lessons.

 

When my mom was a kid (8), her mom didn't even come to the facility, her brother (10) walked her across the harbor bridge and to the pool for their lesson.

[Meriwether]

Even though I personally couldn't care less who sees me shimmying out of my swimmers, I can see that having some rules are good for people who do care.

 

Having said that, I think worrying about a 6 year old of the opposite sex being in the same change room is nuts. I'd be good with an 8 and under rule.

The rule at our gym is under four. My "6 or so" is actually extra leeway I would personally give. Although, I have a six year old girl as well. If even a six year old boy made her uncomfortable by staring or whatever, I would ask the mom to remove him from my area. And I am not a confrontational person.

[luuknam]

Now I am wondering how they do this at day camps at the rec center.  They swim every day and parents are not around.  I doubt they herd all the boys into the ladies' locker room after swimming.  Nor do I assume there is a guy who goes in and watches the boys dress.  I assume the children all figure it out.  I assume that parents select swimwear their young kids can handle on their own.

 

I know that at the Y, for their preschool program, one of the female preschool teachers is in the girls locker room to help them. The preschool kids are almost all young enough to be allowed in opposite gender locker rooms still, though I can't remember if I've seen a boy in the girls for the preschool program. Since the preschool kids swim (and hence change) at a time no-one else is swimming/changing, I'm thinking maybe the other female preschool teacher goes in the boys locker room with the boys (we also have women's and men's locker rooms for adults, so people wanting to use a shower and/or get changed after using e.g. the treadmill can do that in those if it happens to coincide with preschool locker room time).

 

ETA: I don't know what this "swimwear young kids can handle on their own" is. My youngest has swim trunks, and he can put them on independently, and take them off independently, but if he uses the bathroom in the middle of swim time, he can pull them down but can't get them back up because that's just hard to do when they're wet (I've tried to talk him into peeing standing so he'd only have to pull them down a little bit, but he won't).

Edited January 29, 2016 by luuknam

[Momling]

Our Y was like that too. Naked everywhere. There was a deep hot tub in the locker room. I tried it after swimming once, and three naked old ladies hopped in. The men's room was the same way. DS still remembers what he calls "gravity over time" with a shudder. Lol!

Ours too! I don't mind terribly having a quick shower in the communal showers and I'm good at facing my locker and changing. Nudity for a purpose is fine, but i'm always startled to see so many naked women just hanging out chatting. I feel like a prude.

 

And more to topic, no I have not taken and will not take boys over the age of 4 into the women's locker rooms. There are three private changing rooms and one unisex shower/toilet. I'd use those if they need my help and send them to the men's when they're ready. The locker rooms might have a plethora of naked people chatting about their vacations or the last hike they went on or some great recipe they'll make for their grandkids, but it's hardly a den of iniquity.

[bolt.]

Ok. My original response was to those who were saying certain views on nudity were ridiculous. My response was to say that I have no shame about having shame being naked in front of tween boys. No, I'm not okay with being naked in front of them or older males. I'm not sure what you're trying to tell me, unless just a general sociology lesson?

I'm trying to 'soften' the message that we (collectively) have ridiculously high levels of culture-wide body shame (that you clearly share) into a more comforting (less personal) message -- since you appeared to take it personally. I'm assuring you that you are in the majority and behaving normally for your culture. It's not your fault that your culture is absurd, and has widespread and completely approved ridiculous views on nudity. You don't need to feel ashamed of being a member of your culture... But, as a general sociology lesson, our culture is unusual in this area.

[ktgrok]

First, no, she shouldn't take an older boy into the women's locker room. There are private ones available. If threes a wait and your kid melts down when hungry then bring a snack. 

 

Second, I find it interesting about the nude women in locker room experiences. I go to the gym fairly often and women there are very circumspect about dressing under a towel, etc for th most part. Which annoys me a bit because I don't want to bother with that...but I kind of feel like I have to be covered up because everyone else is. I don't want to be the one weird naked person, you know? My compromise is to face the locker, and put my underwear on while under my towel. But I still end up totally naked when getting undressed, before wrapping a towel around me. I'm just not going to go to the trouble of wrapping up, then removing my underwear. But I wish others were more open about nudity so I wouldn't feel weird being nude. 

[luuknam]

But I still end up totally naked when getting undressed, before wrapping a towel around me. I'm just not going to go to the trouble of wrapping up, then removing my underwear. But I wish others were more open about nudity so I wouldn't feel weird being nude. 

 

What I do is leave my long-ish t-shirt on, remove underwear, pull up swimsuit, take t-shirt off, pull up rest of swimsuit. Obviously it involves some nudity, but only for brief moments. I shower in my swimsuit. Then, getting dressed again, I do the reverse - pull swimsuit down halfway, throw on t-shirt, pull swimsuit down rest of the way, put on underwear. Part of that is not wanting to be seen (I identify as bi, and somewhat on the trans-spectrum, though not transsexual, so gendered locker rooms are just as awkward for me as non-gendered ones, or possibly more, because they make the (false) gender dichotomy even more blatantly apparent), and part of it is that the locker rooms are often too cold so you want to get covered up as fast as possible.

[ktgrok]

What I do is leave my long-ish t-shirt on, remove underwear, pull up swimsuit, take t-shirt off, pull up rest of swimsuit. Obviously it involves some nudity, but only for brief moments. I shower in my swimsuit. Then, getting dressed again, I do the reverse - pull swimsuit down halfway, throw on t-shirt, pull swimsuit down rest of the way, put on underwear. Part of that is not wanting to be seen (I identify as bi, and somewhat on the trans-spectrum, though not transsexual, so gendered locker rooms are just as awkward for me as non-gendered ones, or possibly more, because they make the (false) gender dichotomy even more blatantly apparent), and part of it is that the locker rooms are often too cold so you want to get covered up as fast as possible.

 

That works, but I'm not swimming, I'm working out and then showering and changing. So no swimsuit. I'm actually getting totally naked to wrap in a towel, walk down the hall and shower, then come back down the hall to the locker area and get dressed. And I don't mind being nude in front of other people, I just don't want THEM to mind, if that makes sense. 

 

People also use the sauna totally clothes, wearing their sweaty work out clothes, which kind of grosses me out for some reason. I usually get undressed and wrapped in a towel, and sit in there in my towel 

[poppy]

This thread is so odd to read in contrast with the one about kids playing outside without parent supervision ("Mom lets 4 year old play outside alone, gets arrested".)  In that thread, people scoffed at the idea of having to physically be with their little kids while they play - or even be in earshot.  I remember several posts about preschoolers walking to school unsupervised? Now the idea of an 8 year old boy getting changed on his own is the one that is considered ridiculous.

 

My opinion is that this shouldn't even be a controversy. If a family restroom is available, use it! If not, go home to get changed.  Easy peasy.

 

[barnwife]

This thread has given me pause.

I have always just taken all kids with me into the women's locker room. But...maybe we should use the family one this summer if it's available.

Our oldest is only 5, but...apparently many would be uncomfortable with him in there. Honestly, until this thread, that would never have occurred to me. The thought of caring about a young child with a caregiver in a locker room is just something I don't have time/energy to think about.

We've never used the family/unisex bathroom because it is also the handicapped accessible one. And I have always preferred to leave it available for that or adults with caregivers. 

As for whether a typical 7-10 yo could handle a locker room...I don't know. My oldest is only 5.5. At this point there is no way he could do anything more than walk through and meet me on the other side. If I asked him to stop and rinse off before showering or anything, all bets are off.

Could this change in a year? Oh, how I hope so. But time will tell.
 

[frogger]

I teach a group of boys from 8-12. The 8 year old is maybe an inch shorter than the 12 year old and there are multiple kids in the 9-11 range shorter than him so there is that. I have mistaken a 4 year old girl for a 7-8 year old, she was bigger than my 99 percent on the growth chart daughter by a lot. I'm so very glad I'm not a comment making person and made one before I found out about why she was behaving like a toddler/ preschooler. So I would caution on assumptions.

Secondly, please please don't do the loud confrontation in front of everyone thing. You can go to the facilities staff with a complaint. If the boy is really ten and all the other 10 year old boys are allowed in the boys locker room he is probably embarrassed enough. My ten year old would be through the floor with embarrassment and it is probable that his mother has embarrassed him many times. Out of all the people who are likely to actually be hurt in this situation, it is probably that little boy.

Edited January 29, 2016 by frogger

[skimomma]

A lot of you would have a very hard time in the locker room I use almost daily.

 

I have never seen anyone try to change under a towel, inside a locker, in a bathroom stall, or under a t-shirt.

 

We have shower trees with no curtains so there is really no way to avoid being naked in front of others if you want to use the showers.  And no way to avoid seeing naked people if you are anywhere in the locker room.

 

We have saunas and no one wears swimsuits or towels.  You do bring a towel to sit on.

 

People walk all around the room without clothing, young and old, big and small.

 

This was the way my high school and middle school locker rooms operated as well.  In middle school our bathroom area did not even have stalls, just a  row of open toilets.  

 

It never occurred to me until this thread that being unclothed in a single-gender locker room was strange on any level.    

[Valley Girl]

 I'm assuring you that you are in the majority and behaving normally for your culture. It's not your fault that your culture is absurd, and has widespread and completely approved ridiculous views on nudity. You don't need to feel ashamed of being a member of your culture.

 

I'm not a sociologist by any stretch of the imagine, yet couldn't those same words be turned around and addressed toward the culture with more "open" views? It's funny how a thread that began with the example of someone flouting rules for her own convenience becomes an indictment of people's preference for some degree of privacy in the locker room.

 

 

Edited to add: For anyone who hasn't read the whole thread, I'm saying it was for her convenience because the family locker area was immediately available.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Reluctant Homeschooler

[frogger]

This thread has given me pause.

 

I have always just taken all kids with me into the women's locker room. But...maybe we should use the family one this summer if it's available.

 

Our oldest is only 5, but...apparently many would be uncomfortable with him in there. Honestly, until this thread, that would never have occurred to me. The thought of caring about a young child with a caregiver in a locker room is just something I don't have time/energy to think about.

 

We've never used the family/unisex bathroom because it is also the handicapped accessible one. And I have always preferred to leave it available for that or adults with caregivers.

 

As for whether a typical 7-10 yo could handle a locker room...I don't know. My oldest is only 5.5. At this point there is no way he could do anything more than walk through and meet me on the other side. If I asked him to stop and rinse off before showering or anything, all bets are off.

 

Could this change in a year? Oh, how I hope so. But time will tell.

 

I think only one person mentioned caring about a five year old. I think 5 is pretty young and I wouldn't worry about it if you haven't before. A three year old is basically a toddler, I can't imagine a place with a maximum age of 3 but I guess they exist. Probably in places where family changing rooms actually exist.

 

10 is pre-adolescent and some but not all have the whole puberty thing starting. I think you will find your child changes tremendously over just one or two years.

[EmseB]

I'm trying to 'soften' the message that we (collectively) have ridiculously high levels of culture-wide body shame (that you clearly share) into a more comforting (less personal) message -- since you appeared to take it personally. I'm assuring you that you are in the majority and behaving normally for your culture. It's not your fault that your culture is absurd, and has widespread and completely approved ridiculous views on nudity. You don't need to feel ashamed of being a member of your culture... But, as a general sociology lesson, our culture is unusual in this area.

Ah, I see. Why are the ideas ridiculous and absurd? What is the demarcation for absurd and ridiculous when it comes to nudity? If it is arbitrary, wouldn't it be just as arbitrary to say another, more lax standard is sensible? Or could we say that designations for absurd and ridiculous are also arbitrary?

 

I find it interesting that people use words like absurd, ridiculous, and unfortunate when talking about standard of privacy and personal comfort with who gets to see them naked. Would we call a Muslim woman who doesn't want any of her body seen in public absurd or ridiculous?

[fairfarmhand]

This thread has given me pause.

 

I have always just taken all kids with me into the women's locker room. But...maybe we should use the family one this summer if it's available.

 

Our oldest is only 5, but...apparently many would be uncomfortable with him in there. Honestly, until this thread, that would never have occurred to me. The thought of caring about a young child with a caregiver in a locker room is just something I don't have time/energy to think about.

 

We've never used the family/unisex bathroom because it is also the handicapped accessible one. And I have always preferred to leave it available for that or adults with caregivers. 

 

As for whether a typical 7-10 yo could handle a locker room...I don't know. My oldest is only 5.5. At this point there is no way he could do anything more than walk through and meet me on the other side. If I asked him to stop and rinse off before showering or anything, all bets are off.

 

Could this change in a year? Oh, how I hope so. But time will tell.

 

 

Really, at 5, I don't think most people would be too worried, especially if you've taught him protocol...no staring, face the wall, no goofing off...do your stuff and leave. But that would be what I'd counsel even my little girls to do. Not just my son. It's rude to stare whatver the gender, even if you're an adult of the same sex.

 

Also, if you kind of give a little shout out when you enter..."Hey guys, Ive got my hands full and my little boy needs to come in here to change? I hate to hog the handicapped family restroom. If you're shy could you cover up so I can get him changed? We won't be long, I promise!"

 

That gives people time to change quickly if they're uncomfortable, and most reasonable folks will appreciate that you do have your hands full and you're trying to be considerate.

 

In that case, I'd hustle my 10 and 14 yo girls through their changing and we'd at least be covered by the time that you came in. Even if they had to put on their shoes and comb their hair with a boy in the room, they'd be ok with that.

 

[luuknam]

I teach a group of boys from 8-12. The 8 year old is maybe an inch shorter than the 12 year old and there are multiple kids in the 9-11 range shorter than him so there is that. I have mistaken a 4 year old girl for a 7-8 year old, she was bigger than my 99 percent on the growth chart daughter by a lot. I'm so very glad I'm not a comment making person and made one before I found out about why she was behaving like a toddler/ preschooler. So I would caution on assumptions.

 

As the parent of a kid who is much shorter than most kids his age, I try to make it a point to say his age relatively frequently, especially in situations where others might make wrong assumptions. I assume most parents of very short/tall kids do the same thing... e.g. "the family locker rooms were all in use, but don't worry, he's only 5yo, he's just very tall for his age". This woman didn't imply in any way that her kid was extremely tall for his age... the OP said she's guessing 10yo, but giving leeway to maybe 8yo if he's quite tall for his age. Either way, that's way outside the posted age limit and the culturally acceptable limit in the area, and well within the range that normal kids and even many special needs kids can change alone in their own gender's locker room.

[bolt.]

Ah, I see. Why are the ideas ridiculous and absurd? What is the demarcation for absurd and ridiculous when it comes to nudity? If it is arbitrary, wouldn't it be just as arbitrary to say another, more lax standard is sensible? Or could we say that designations for absurd and ridiculous are also arbitrary?

 

I find it interesting that people use words like absurd, ridiculous, and unfortunate when talking about standard of privacy and personal comfort with who gets to see them naked. Would we call a Muslim woman who doesn't want any of her body seen in public absurd or ridiculous?

We'd call a Muslim woman a product of her enculturation process, just like we are.

 

I'm not indicting our culture, I'm describing it.

 

It's ridiculous and absurd because it is incredibly rare and exaggerated (in comparison all of human culture and history). It's unfortunate because it fails to 'do the job' it hopes to do (civilize sex, gender, and sexuality) and is therefore illogical, and yet it continues. It continues based on feelings -- in spite of being plenty of work, and consuming a considerable amount of resources, and resulting (occasionally) in people feeling bad in situations where they could conceivably feel good, if the norm were different. It's basically a superstition that creates mandatory busy work for everyone -- and that's unfortunate.

 

I suppose that's a subjective evaluation, but, it is the logically applied result of a field of study... So I wouldn't say it's completely arbitrary.

Edited January 29, 2016 by bolt.

[bolt.]

I'm not a sociologist by any stretch of the imagine, yet couldn't those same words be turned around and addressed toward the culture with more "open" views? It's funny how a thread that began with the example of someone flouting rules for her own convenience becomes an indictment of people's preference for some degree of privacy in the locker room.

 

 

Edited to add: For anyone who hasn't read the whole thread, I'm saying it was for her convenience because the family locker area was immediately available.

Confused.

 

It's not an indictment of people's privacy preferences. It's an academic exploration regarding the existence of cultural norms, the roots of those cultural norms, and the examination of this interesting case study of when this cultural norm spawned conflict in the real world.

 

No one is being indicted for having cultural norms. It's normal to have cultural norms. In our culture it's normal to value body privacy most of the time (yet not all of the time, in very specific and fascinating ways). Nobody is being indicted for having that perfectly normal preference.

[zoobie]

A lot of you would have a very hard time in the locker room I use almost daily.

 

I have never seen anyone try to change under a towel, inside a locker, in a bathroom stall, or under a t-shirt.

 

We have shower trees with no curtains so there is really no way to avoid being naked in front of others if you want to use the showers.  And no way to avoid seeing naked people if you are anywhere in the locker room.

 

We have saunas and no one wears swimsuits or towels.  You do bring a towel to sit on.

 

People walk all around the room without clothing, young and old, big and small.

 

This was the way my high school and middle school locker rooms operated as well.  In middle school our bathroom area did not even have stalls, just a  row of open toilets.  

 

It never occurred to me until this thread that being unclothed in a single-gender locker room was strange on any level.    

 

It was surprising to me, but I didn't think it was bad. It did stop me from sitting on the benches to put on my clothes or shoes because they did NOT use towels. :)  The last locker room experience I had prior to this was in the college physical activities center, and everyone changed discretely. Which now is pretty funny considering most of us looked the best naked we ever would look. ;) I wouldn't want to walk around naked in front of a couple of my friends who obsess over losing 2 pounds and wail about being a size 6 and being disgusting. I'm much, much larger, and although it's obvious with clothes on, I wouldn't want to subject myself to their (perceived or real) judgment without clothes. I'm comfortable naked around my husband and kids, although I warn my DS if he's about to walk in on naked because he freaks out now with me or DH. 

[SKL]

The woman who brings her school-aged boy into our locker room also has her hands full with 2 younger kids.  The problem with that is that she isn't actually watching what her oldest is doing, which is looking at naked females and making them uncomfortable.  So, I would say that if you indeed have your hands full, all the more reason to use a more private spot.  And if you must use the ladies' locker room, make sure your 5+ kids are looking at the lockers or something, not at the people.  Don't just assume that because you've told them not to stare, they aren't going to do it.  :)