Q about wealth/poverty

[EmilyGF]

Please don't flame me! I have an honest question for people who have BTDT. Please don't get preachy if you haven't BTDT.

 

I have friends from across the spectrum of wealth and cultures. I've noticed that many of my upper middle class friends buy used clothes, used cars, even used jewelry. OTOH, many of my friends who have financial struggles have fancier clothes, cars, bikes, etc than me.

 

Can someone explain this cultural phenomenon? Also, I've lived across the USA, so I have come to recognize some regional differences. I'm in the midwest currently, if that helps. I think things were different when I lived in Cali.

 

Emily

(who loves her used car, used couch, second-hand jewelry, and $20 bike, and is packing used clothes to take to the thrift store she shops at)

[LucyStoner]

Well, clearly buying everything new, for an average income range, can lead to debt. Debt can contribute to poverty if you lose your means to pay on time and your credit record hurts your work prospects in some fields. Still, your ability go into debt is generally tied to your income.

 

I know frugal people at all income levels and I know spendthrifts at all income levels. I think it is impossible to generalize that one group is more or less frugal. Also, to the extent that it doesn't burden others being frugal or spendthrift-y aren't good or bad, they just are ways to be. Saving can be a great thing. Spending can be a great thing. Both can be taken to undesirable extremes.

 

I know people who by all metrics are affluent who think they are poor. That's weird to me. In so far as I can tell, part of this is high property values that price younger buyers out and part is, for many if not all, overspending.

 

-signed, a frugal saver who grew up poor and has been comfortable as an adult (income in the top 10-25% or so, situationally modest income now until my husband is done with school. I can't say situational low income or poverty tho because anyone with my income and family size who feels impoverished doesn't know from poor plus we came into this with assets we have been able to keep.)

[Melissa B]

In my experience, the poorer one is, the smaller one's world. An upper middle class family generally spreads its wealth over a larger area. Middle class families may be using their money to buy a home, plan for retirement, go on vacation, have a large Christmas (including buying for multiple relatives,) paying for their children's college, going to the theater or a sporting event, traveling across country (maybe for a wedding or funeral or graduation,) sending their kids to summer camp, paying for ballet or gymnastics. The middle class (and above) world is very large. A poorer person doesn't foresee a future where he/she will ever be able to buy a house, or retire or pay for their children's education. Their self worth and status in their family and community generally encompasses much smaller things like a new bike or a new car or nicer clothing. Items they can realistically aspire too.

[hornblower]

I read something about this recently & the google fairies were kind this time because I got it again on the first hit
 

Why Do Poor People 'Waste' Money On Luxury Goods?

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/cafe/why-do-poor-people-waste-money-on-luxury-goods
 

"Why do poor people make stupid, illogical decisions to buy status symbols? For the same reason all but only the most wealthy buy status symbols, I suppose. We want to belong. And, not just for the psychic rewards, but belonging to one group at the right time can mean the difference between unemployment and employment, a good job as opposed to a bad job, housing or a shelter, and so on. Someone mentioned on twitter that poor people can be presentable with affordable options from Kmart. But the issue is not about being presentable. Presentable is the bare minimum of social civility. It means being clean, not smelling, wearing shirts and shoes for service and the like. Presentable as a sufficient condition for gainful, dignified work or successful social interactions is a privilege. It's the aging white hippie who can cut the ponytail of his youthful rebellion and walk into senior management while aging black panthers can never completely outrun the effects of stigmatization against which they were courting a revolution. Presentable is relative and, like life, it ain't fair.

 

In contrast, "acceptable" is about gaining access to a limited set of rewards granted upon group membership. I cannot know exactly how often my presentation of acceptable has helped me but I have enough feedback to know it is not inconsequential. One manager at the apartment complex where I worked while in college told me, repeatedly, that she knew I was "Okay" because my little Nissan was clean. That I had worn a Jones of New York suit to the interview really sealed the deal. She could call the suit by name because she asked me about the label in the interview."

 

[goldberry]

My daughter is a total fashion diva and wears some gorgeous and upper-end name brand clothes that she always gets comments on....all of them have come from the thrift store.  Someone could very well assume that I spent a ton of money on them, but I did not.  Also, family has occasionally gifted us some very nice things that we would not have purchased for ourselves.  

 

I don't know that you can always judge things like that.

[Dory]

I don't know if that's really the case with everyone. I grew up in a rather poor family. No running water, no power (except a generator that destroyed my hearing). My mom stretched food as far as humanly possible. New clothes were a luxury. My mom scrimped like crazy to give my older brothers the money to get stylish clothes for back to school, because we lived in an area where a large portion of the families are financially comfortable. There was no new car, new clothes, new bikes, or things like that from the ages of 9-19.

 

I'm comfortable middle class now. We have a new car, new appliances, and some new clothes. But in order to stretch things so that we can also invest and travel once in awhile, 3/4 of our clothes are used, the second truck that we need for farm and work stuff is old, we build a lot ourselves, and we grow a lot of our own food.

 

 

[Slache]

We live below the poverty level and have spent more money on a car than those around us. We've had our Prius for 2 years. It was a 2006 with 45,000 miles and we spent $12,000 on it because we knew we could afford the $167 car payment, but could not come up with $2,000 for repairs on a moments notice. We shop the sales racks and my Kindle, guitar, and Ipod were all birthday gifts from my father, but we always have a nice car.

[Tanaqui]

I've noticed that many of my upper middle class friends buy used clothes, used cars, even used jewelry.

 

Used goods can be an investment. Wait long enough and they become antiques. New things? Who knows how long it'll last?

 

[EmilyGF]

 

I don't know that you can always judge things like that.

These are close friends of mine - close enough that I know a good deal about their situation, spending habits, but not close enough that I would give financial advice. That's a level of close that I only have a handful, if that, of friends in.

[EmilyGF]

I know frugal people at all income levels and I know spendthrifts at all income levels. I think it is impossible to generalize that one group is more or less frugal. Also, to the extent that it doesn't burden others being frugal or spendthrift-h aren't good or bad, they just are ways to be. Saving can be a great thing. Spending can be a great thing. Both can be taken to undesirable extremes.

 

Agreed, but these aren't supposed to be generalizations about society in general, just my friends who are close enough that I know their spending habits. I guess I added that I live in the midwest because that wasn't what I saw among my upper-middle class friends in Cali.

[Amy in NH]

We are "living on the edge" and buy most everything used - but we are discriminating and buy good quality used items because we can't afford to replace them.  I am an expert bargain hunter.  For instance, I found a very nice used Specialized bicycle for my son at a yard sale for $25; that bike cost $350 new.  I have items on my wish list and save for them;  when I'm ready I search and search until I find just the right one at the right price.

[maize]

I mentioned shopping at a secondhand thrift store once to my grandmother, and she said something about how she would never have done that. I think that because she grew up very poor during the depression things like secondhand clothes were shameful to her, a reminder of her family's inability to provide anything better.

 

Someone who knows they have the option to buy new if they want has no reason to feel shame over buying secondhand.

[EmilyGF]

A poorer person doesn't foresee a future where he/she will ever be able to buy a house, or retire or pay for their children's education. Their self worth and status in their family and community generally encompasses much smaller things like a new bike or a new car or nicer clothing. Items they can realistically aspire too.

This makes a lot of sense. I am not saving for a personal airplane because it is totally out of my league as a middle classer. Thanks.

[Freckles]

You might find Ruby Payne's book "Understanding Poverty" an interesting read. I heard her speak once, and she addresses issues like the one you have mentioned.

[Lisbeth]

I have noticed this too. All hat, no cattle? Paul Fussell in the book Class talks about this. He talks a lot about how insecurity contributes. I remember the sentence, "You are almost too well dressed to be a gentleman."

[T'smom]

I once taught in an inner city school and we had to read a book that explained some culture-type things about lower classes. I wish I could remember the name of it. One thing that really stuck out to me was that poorer people will spend a lot on entertainment type things as a distraction from how hard their life is.

[AimeeM]

I haven't seen that. Sometimes it happens that way, but I know very wealthy people who buy only new (although I will say that they tend to buy wisely), and I know lower income families who buy used.

Some of us have an aversion to used items for what we feel are practical reasons. We have a comfortable income... but we watched my very generous FIL (who is fond of allowing random people to sleep at his house) battle bed-bugs in his three story home... they ended up in the furniture, clothing, books... everywhere. To the tune of thousands in pest control services, and thousands replacing furniture. 

That turned me off of used everything for a very, very long time (unless it is a gifted something, from someone we KNOW). I only recently put this away for an awesome second-hand clothing site I found (Ann Taylor jeans for $10??? Yes, please!). I still, admittedly, cringe when they come in though. 

We never buy new cars. I honestly do not know anybody who does. Part of DH's company perk is that he gets a waaaay discounted lease on a certain brand of car, and they are new, but the cars we OWN are all used. I do not know anybody who buys new cars... except a friend (lower income) who was somehow suckered into one by a dealership. My vehicle is a relatively newer modeled, but previously owned, SUV... and I *love* the car. Tony's car, before the company perk came into play, was a much older, well loved *other* SUV - he adored that car, but it was finally getting to the point of costing more and more in maintenance due to age and mileage. 

 

I wouldn't buy used furniture, unless I personally knew the previous owners. This is just FIL's situation coming back to me, though. Lol.

 

I do not personally know anybody, low income or higher income, who buys used jewelry. I can imagine it (especially for older, unique jewelry), but I'm not a jewelry person at all, so it may just not be something I notice (I wear my wedding band and that's it).

 

[Catwoman]

ime its the cash vs credit card decision...the ones shopping second hand are not buying on credit.  The ones that want everything fancy are...and sometimes they return those things for a full refund after  a little use. 

 

 

Why would you assume that?  :glare:

 

I'm so tired of people assuming that if you buy expensive things or live in a great neighborhood or drive luxury cars, you must automatically be up to your ears in debt.  It's an offensive assumption.

 

[mommaduck]

We have been well below poverty level off and on. Most of our cars have been new, simply because we had no money up front for a vehicle and needed the vehicle ASAP for work...buying new was the only option due to finances. Most of our clothes have come from yard sales, thrift stores, home sewn, or hand me downs. I don't buy anything for myself from a thrift store unless it's really nice (I don't buy much for myself to begin with). Midst hand me downs have been from wealthy friends who have over bought for their own children from name brand outlet sales, their children either didn't like the item, out grew it too quickly, or just never got around to wearing them...many have still had the tags on. These are stores that I would never step foot into, but it's how my children have had those brands. Also, when we lived near godparents, a favorite gift from them to their godchildren was a new outfit for Christmas or Pascha. I know many poor that invest what little they manage to save into gold and stones jewelry. One sister does this. It's a walking bank. It's what little she has of value. She wears it. If money is needed and they've hit on rough times, she pawns it (ftr, she also buys it at pawn shops and gets good deals), then works hard to reacquire her jewelry asap. I know a lot of poor people that spend a lot on their hair and nails. This is VERY much about being presentable and acceptable for employment.

 

Ftr, I grew up mostly middle class (lower end). Dh grew up dirt poor. He's off the mindset that he works his butt off just to support us. He gets very little fun and very rarely can do something really fun or nice for the kids. So when he can, yes, he will take us out to eat, we will go see a movie (once every four years on average), etc. It helps keep him going, to be able to spend a little bit on something other than bills.

[FO4UR]

I grew up solid-middle-class.  Most of my adult life has been below poverty line, sometimes way below.  We are now at middle class, certainly middle class for our area.  (also Midwest)

 

 

 

Others have touched on what I can say. Entertainment is a distraction from a very hard life. At times, over-spending to get a reliable phone/internet/transportation and professional clothing is a risk that you either take to get a decent job or ....just give up on trying to get a decent job.  Sometimes that risk doesn't pan out, and the hole that is poverty just got deeper and harder to climb out of. 

 

 

Once out of that cycle, you NEVER want to go back.  I could buy a new computer/van/wardrobe/etc right now.  My family would benefit from some new things...but what IF???  So, no. We will make do, and buy used when needed. 

 

Then there is the fact that b/c I do now have the ability to fund our *needs* (not all our wants), I can breath easier. I can spend time building a hobby into a career and that is more satisfying than any movie or game.  When every day is an exact mission to make sure we all eat without spending the rent $, the stress is overwhelming and leaves no energy or time (or money!) to pursue anything else.

 

 

 

I have seen, up close, some people see the right side of middle class for a split second and are deeper into the hole before they blink.  They've always wanted ______, and now they can get it and do.  There is a mentality that "The money may not be there in 3 months so I better get my toy now!"  OTOH, I got a REALLY funny look a few weeks ago.  A friend was telling me that there was a sale at The Children's Place. I mentioned that I generally by our clothes at the thrift store, and only buy new to fill in what we couldn't find used.  She looked at me like I had 2 heads...a mix between pity and disbelief.

 

There is benefit to having lived in 2 or more different economic classes.  It gives perspective. 

[Farrar]

I agree with several of the insights above... that there's a connection between spending in the first place and ending up poorer, that it's harder to imagine every being able to get ahead if you don't have enough so there's less incentive to save...

 

I think if you're secure that you have enough, you don't worry about how it looks if you buy a lot of your stuff at Value Village or Goodwill. You know you have enough and that if you need to splurge, you can. But if you don't have enough, there's more of a battle to show that you can give your kids and family the best, that you're "good enough" and so forth.

 

I also see affluent families splurging in really different ways. I know a lot of families that buy all their kids' clothes and shoes and much of their own at the Value Village but only buy organic from Whole Foods and other such places. So it's just different values. Also, a lot of affluent families I know have embraced more of a reduce, reuse, recycle mentality so buying used is an environmental good they're doing. They want to waste less. They have the luxury of thinking about those issues and spending on them or saving on them.

 

Also, I think a lot of it is cultural. I've lived places where thrift stores are not the norm, but where I live now, they're very much the norm and the stores are huge and all over the place. Nearly everyone I know uses them heavily.

[JennyD]

 

I'm surprised by that.  I'd say that we live in a pretty UMC world and in general, I think people mostly buy new cars (unless it's a car for a teen), and the only person I know who is into thrift store shopping is very interested in vintage fashion.   Furniture is more of a mixed bag, I think, but again I suspect that's often an aesthetic preference.   

 

I wonder if there is data to support your observation -- surely economists must have studied this?  It does occur to me that anecdote could be especially unreliable here, as it may simply be more memorable when you see a poor person buy something new or a wealthy person shopping used.  

 

 

[Farrar]

I'll add that I also really agree with the sentiment that people who are poor can choose to spend their money however they wish and that it's wrong to make assumptions that because someone has something nice they went into debt to get it or mismanaged their finances. As pointed out above, sometimes spending more up front in the smarter decision in the long run, whether it's because it will save you money or time or save your health or whatever. And sometimes you're looking at a luxury item that the person has saved for over time, or was a gift.

 

But I also didn't take what Emily asked to imply that... More that she was asking why some people who were financially struggling seemed to place more value on name brand type goods while some people with more money didn't seem to care. But I think at the root it's just sort of evident that if something is harder to get, you place a higher value on it.

[gardenmom5]

I'm familiar with it and also associate with those of wide income strata.  it comes down to knowing the value of a dollar - and how much things should cost and not paying more than it should cost. (and not playing the keep up with the joneses game.)  those who spend more either don't understand the concept - or are trying to impress others with conspicuous consumption.

 

most people of with nice bank accounts didn't get it by some generous remuneration - but by spending wisely and not buying what they don't need.  and putting money in the bank.  mil's last husband was one of those - and had a seven figure networth. he certainly didn't have a high salary.  I know a school teacher who was a millionaire (due to how he handled his money) when he died 30 years ago.

 

we deal with a financial planner group who just turned down (due to time) a large group of clients (they came as a set) with multimillion dollar yearly salaries  and a long history of being broke within five years after leaving those jobs due to lavish lifestyles.  (the fps knew they could help them, but didn't want to spend the time it would have required and taken them away from their other clients.)

 

 

eta: I'll give an irl example.  person A bought a van that met her needs of three small children, and was in her price range.  GM was very competitive, conspicuous consumption/keep-up-with-the-joneses and person B was her pawn.  so - GM bought person B a van that was loaded with extras - because they *thought* person A had all those extras.  (it didn't.)  person B even said she thought it was like person A's and that was why she bought it.  GM had been thrifty, but person B always spent more than she made in a year, and GM regularly was supplementing her income. (even though person B had a decent income and many people live comfortably on it.)  Ironically - person A had a lower income than person B - even before GM was supplementing person B's income.  yet person A was more thrifty - and had a more comfortable lifestyle.  iow: it's how you use the money.

 

[JennyD]

I do think it's true that when a relatively poor person 'splurges' it tends to be on a visible personal use item, whereas wealthier people will tend to have the ability to splurge on vacation or renovations or - idk - subscriptions to the theatre.

 

 

Yes, that's true.  Although I wouldn't say that my UMC community is especially into conspicuous consumption, people absolutely do expensive home renovations, send their children to private school, go on vacation, etc.  So, not so many diamond earrings or large flat-screen TVs, but lots of lovely landscaping and summer arts camps.  

 

 

 

[mommaduck]

I had a "wealthy" godparent tell us that he actually envied us. We weren't in debt. Dh's job wasn't high risk. We lived within our means. This means not great credit and no credit cards, but he had credit and a pile of debt and has to run to an fro from one money making thing to another and pray when any of then fizzle out. Sure, he has the luxuries...we have a tight knit family.

[mommaduck]

Watch out, Now. Someone is going to come along and say that heyyyyy man! Rich people can have tight knit families toooooo!

 

Pro tip, rich people. We know.

I'm aware of that :P This was relating to HIM. His extended family is tight knit. His family is tight knit, but they were so involved in activities and he had to travel constantly. When he was home, he would invite my kids over or show up in our bad neighborhood just to spend time with a family and kids that weren't spoiled, but loved the extra spoiling (he got pulled over twice by the cops asking who he was and why he was there... Luxury car, circling the neighborhood, because he would get a business call and there was no parking, so he would circle till done and then park in the street, which was normal...we joked about him being a drug dealer...it's really funny when you know who his family is and what they do). He's a sweet man. I envied his ability to have the extras and he envied us our simplicity. I agree that I wouldn't want his plate and honestly don't think he'd want our plate.

[LucyStoner]

Used goods can be an investment. Wait long enough and they become antiques. New things? Who knows how long it'll last?

seriously. My MIL gave me a designer card case/key ring for my birthday wifh cash in it. The zipper on the case totally broke on me this week. My birthday was less than 5 months ago. 6 months is the lifespan for a crazy amount of not-cheap consumer goods.

[AimeeM]

We live below the poverty level and have spent more money on a car than those around us. We've had our Prius for 2 years. It was a 2006 with 45,000 miles and we spent $12,000 on it because we knew we could afford the $167 car payment, but could not come up with $2,000 for repairs on a moments notice. We shop the sales racks and my Kindle, guitar, and Ipod were all birthday gifts from my father, but we always have a nice car.

Yep. My friend has noticed a huge DECREASE in car related expenses since she got the brand new car. Prior to this car, it had always been used, but between doing great on gas, and no big "must fixes", it's actually saved them money in the long run.

I do think she was snowed by the sales guy, but it actually seems to be working for them.

[mommaduck]

I also have to say, that as people that have been below poverty, we may spend on an item we need (new car), but we also try to live within our means. This has meant (other than not celebrating Christmas) not having Christmas gifts, but just sitting around with cocoa and story books or movies, or birthday presents. Most years, we do brownies for birthdays and kids choose super that night. When I have been able to buy Christmas, it's either been $5-$10 gifts (one or two each) or (when able) I've gone all out on a gift each (Nooks were on sale last year and I bought each child one for $50 each; grandparents paid for the covers...I find free books to load on them).

[Χά�ων]

It takes time and money to shop around at thrift stores. If I need a decent pair of shoes and I have a very limited time to get them I will not be visiting 5 thrift stores all over town. Partly because they may not have what I need. I will hit the nearest store and pay what they ask. I will walk in knowing they will most likely have what I need. I do not have to dig through piles of shoes. I do not have to wonder.

[LucyStoner]

I was the poor kid who was lucky enough to hit puberty at the height of the Seattle grunge era so my thrift shop threads were more than enough to fit in to the degree I wanted to fit in. Suddenly I was the trendy one. After about 5th grade I didn't care about if the kids liked my clothes or whatever, but before that I recall being ashamed at times. We moved a lot, rubber banding back to Seattle with many out of state stops. The places I went to school that were most label conscious were two southern-ish states. I do recall once, in fourth grade when I was teased a lot of my clothes someone complimented me (genuinely) on my jeans and asked where I got them. I was too embarrassed to say at the charity shop so I lied.

 

I am borderline compulsive about making sure that my kids have good shoes, socks, underwear and sheets. Sheets were something that we always had the worst of and too few of. I often was without socks and it strained my patience to the limit when my sensory sensitive kid couldn't wear socks. On some level, I felt that him not wearing socks would make him look like the very poor kid I was. I found a tear in one of the kids sheets and I was insistent to the point of agitation that it be repaired or tossed. No holey sheets for my sons, :P. Obviously my reactions had more to do with me than reality, lol. I remember when I was about 9 or 10 I was spending my birthday money on new shoes at Payless and the clerk was wordlessly bothered by me not having socks. She asked me if I was getting socks too and I was like "uh, no thanks" because I didn't have enough money for the shoes for me and my brother plus socks. She gave us three packages of socks. I was more excited by the socks than my birthday. About 6 months after I moved out and was working mostly FT, I realized I had a sh!t ton of shoes. Like maybe 12-15 pairs. Most were bought on sale at the local shoe store but all were $75-100 or more on sale. I realized that almost every time I got a paycheck, I was buying shoes. Not because I needed them but because I was subconsciously stockpiling them because I was so happy to be able to have money to buy shoes. If I hadn't have realized it I would have kept buying shoes. I certainly didn't spend on other stuff, but the idea that I could own more than 1-2 pairs of shoes and those shoes could be well fitting and in good condition was a revelation to me. Was spending that money on shoes wise or financially responsible? Clearly no, but financial decisions are not always rational or even conscious. I wasn't that into shoes, I was just so unaccustomed to having the means to get shoes.

 

I think that when you have nothing and you get a little, it makes sense that people want to buy a little normalcy, sense of security and/or acceptance. I think that at least some of my thrift ethos comes from the acceptance that it gained, if I'd grown up at a different time/place, I might have been much more into new stuff.

[LucyStoner]

Book recs:

 

Class Matters: Cross Class alliance Building for Middle Class Activists

 

Bridging the Class Divide by Linda Stout

[LucyStoner]

Yep. My friend has noticed a huge DECREASE in car related expenses since she got the brand new car. Prior to this car, it had always been used, but between doing great on gas, and no big "must fixes", it's actually saved them money in the long run.

I do think she was snowed by the sales guy, but it actually seems to be working for them.

I've never bought a new car. I've never had any significant vehicle repair costs. My car is 9 years old. The van we share with my father is 12 years old. Both run extremely well and I doubt we will be shopping for a car again for several more years. That said, I've never bought a clunker but there are new cars that will be clunkers sooner rather than later.

[Ausmumof3]

Please don't flame me! I have an honest question for people who have BTDT. Please don't get preachy if you haven't BTDT.

 

I have friends from across the spectrum of wealth and cultures. I've noticed that many of my upper middle class friends buy used clothes, used cars, even used jewelry. OTOH, many of my friends who have financial struggles have fancier clothes, cars, bikes, etc than me.

 

Can someone explain this cultural phenomenon? Also, I've lived across the USA, so I have come to recognize some regional differences. I'm in the midwest currently, if that helps. I think things were different when I lived in Cali.

 

Emily

(who loves her used car, used couch, second-hand jewelry, and $20 bike, and is packing used clothes to take to the thrift store she shops at)

Haven't read the whole thread. Will get to it.

 

When you live in a poorer area the op shops etc have less well cared for good quality clothes. The hand me downs you get are worn out.

 

The furniture second hand in your area is already trashed, or cheap and nasty so it falls apart.

[LucyStoner]

Haven't read the whole thread. Will get to it.

 

When you live in a poorer area the op shops etc have less well cared for good quality clothes. The hand me downs you get are worn out.

 

The furniture second hand in your area is already trashed, or cheap and nasty so it falls apart.

This is an important point. There's a reason thrift shop buyers in the city with access to transportation head for the wealthy suburbs. Better donations, less demand means more selection.

[Laura Corin]

For the same reason all but only the most wealthy buy status symbols, I suppose. We want to belong. And, not just for the psychic rewards, but belonging to one group at the right time can mean the difference between unemployment and employment, a good job as opposed to a bad job, housing or a shelter, and so on. Someone mentioned on twitter that poor people can be presentable with affordable options from Kmart. But the issue is not about being presentable. Presentable is the bare minimum of social civility. It means being clean, not smelling, wearing shirts and shoes for service and the like. Presentable as a sufficient condition for gainful, dignified work or successful social interactions is a privilege. It's the aging white hippie who can cut the ponytail of his youthful rebellion and walk into senior management while aging black panthers can never completely outrun the effects of stigmatization against which they were courting a revolution. Presentable is relative and, like life, it ain't fair.

 

 

Yes: I know that, whatever blips I have gone through, I am solidly middle class.  I don't have any anxiety about my place in the world, nor am I trying to aspire to a higher echelon.  I know that I probably could afford to buy more high status things, but I don't need to in order to prove something to myself or others.  I have the confidence born of never having really lacked.

 

I do not at all look down on poorer people who spend more on luxury goods - they may need to in a way that I do not.

[Catherine]

I have noticed this too. All hat, no cattle? Paul Fussell in the book Class talks about this. He talks a lot about how insecurity contributes. I remember the sentence, "You are almost too well dressed to be a gentleman."

This book changed my understanding of class here in the USA. It's very worth a read. As far as spending goes, I think frugality and spendiness come at all income levels. It's probably more obvious when people we believe are poor spend on status symbols, than when wealthier people do. But I think the biggest difference that drives spending vs. frugality is one's perception of the future-if there is little reason to think one's situation will improve (by fortune or one's own work), there is little reason to put off buying something once the cash is in hand.

[kiwik]

I've never bought a new car. I've never had any significant vehicle repair costs. My car is 9 years old. The van we share with my father is 12 years old. Both run extremely well and I doubt we will be shopping for a car again for several more years. That said, I've never bought a clunker but there are new cars that will be clunkers sooner rather than later.

I only know two people who have bought new cars. Mine is 17 years old and OK so far. It was 10 years when I got it. To be fair though NZ is known for its old vehicles.

 

I did buy a table on finance once though because I couldn't get the money together to buy a decent second hand one but could afford a weekly payment. I find when I slip up it because i am bored with being careful and want to forget it for a while. I am not below the poverty line though just not a huge amount above it.

[Sherry in OH]

Among some wealthier sets, thrift shopping is a fashion statement.  They have the time to browse and the means to get to the better thrift stores.   They frequently play more for used clothing than many poorer people pay for new.  They are viewed as being green or frugal.

 

Locally, I have found that consignment and thrift shops resell Walmart brands of children’s clothing.  Most of what isn’t Walmart is Target.  The used prices are not significantly less than new.  Plus the shopper has to pick through the badly worn and outdated items to find the few treasures.  That takes time.  Often there is nothing suitable.  Add in inconvenient locations, limited hours, cash only and no returns policies.  Walmart is likely to have something in the right size.  It has frequent sales.  More importantly it takes credit cards, cashes checks (for a fee) and takes public services vouchers.  It also accepts returns.  

 

[Farrar]

I was the poor kid who was lucky enough to hit puberty at the height of the Seattle grunge era so my thrift shop threads were more than enough to fit in to the degree I wanted to fit in. Suddenly I was the trendy one. 

 

Me too, to some extent. Grunge and family poverty hit almost at the same time for me. A lucky coincidence.

 

I was thinking also about the point about how thrift stores in poorer neighborhoods have worse stuff... that's not so much the case in my area, since the neighborhoods are so mixed in terms of class (either genuinely mixed or micro-neighborhoods where one is upscale and another not but they're very close together). But that's a consequence of living in a heavily urban area. And urban areas are one of the things that often keep people in poverty since goods tend to be cheaper in the suburbs. It has really changed in my part of the city - there are now Wal-Marts and cheaper retail, but there are other parts of the city where food, consumer goods, etc. are still more expensive. I think when you have to leave your neighborhood to shop then it makes sense that there's perceived value in getting name brand goods. Or if you may be less aware of how to shop more savvy since it's less accessible to you.

[Hikin' Mama]

I've seen both sets of behavior from both sets of people. The thing is, unless someone tells you their actual income or lists their assets, you really don't know if they are wealthy or not. I know two people in particular that most people would never guess are wealthy, but they actually are. One extremely so.

[Laura Corin]

Certainly in the UK it goes along with the whole shabby chic thing.  I was once invited to lunch in an actual castle by actual aristocrats.  Their sofas were threadbare.  They had nothing to aspire to; nothing to prove.

 

L

[Danestress]

We have a lot of consignment shops in this area, and my friends who need a lot of cocktail dresses or nice work clothes use them. I never ever find things at Goodwill. I hate shopping and do most of it online. I can find bargains that way, and my body is a very 'standard' shape, so I have good luck with having things fit. I just can't deal with the time it takes to check out Goodwill regularly, when so often there is nothing. When I do shop in stores, I have usually looked online already to see what will be there and what is discounted. I don't mind spending a bit more for new clothes because my time is valuable to me. I am not a 'clothes horse' though. I don't buy much. I guess I like having nice clothes, but not as much as I hate shopping.

 

ETA that the last time I bought something at GW, the cashier asked me if I get a senior citizen discount. So my 45 year old self kind of had hurt feelings!

[SparklyUnicorn]

This strikes me as an anecdotal observation.  The reality is probably that this varies widely and the reasons as well.  The only personal experience I have is that growing up my parents were not well off, but my mother would not be caught dead stepping foot into a thrift store.  She thought the concept was icky.  However, my parents never bought expensive anything.  They basically just went without.  They only ever had one car (always used).  My mother had a couple of pairs of pants and a couple of shirts.  She bought the few clothing items we had at places like Kmart.  Starting at age 12 I bought my own clothing because I had jobs starting at that age.  The reason for their financial difficulties was due to needing to spend most of their extra money on drugs for their health issues and not because they spent too much on stuff.

 

I do think my mother's attitude towards thrift stores has rubbed off on me though.  I've never been to one.  But I also don't spend a lot on clothing.  I have very simple tastes (basic jeans and basic shirts).  I have one pair of shoes and now one pair of snow boots.  That's it. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I've seen both sets of behavior from both sets of people. The thing is, unless someone tells you their actual income or lists their assets, you really don't know if they are wealthy or not. I know two people in particular that most people would never guess are wealthy, but they actually are. One extremely so.

 

Yup.

Growing up I had a friend that appeared to have parents who were very well off.  They lived in a very fancy expensive house.  But then I'd go over there and they'd have the cheapest and crappiest food, clunkers for cars, crap for clothing, etc.  I don't know if they were well off or if they spent all their money on the house.  I suspect they spent all their money on the house based on the jobs they had, but I'd still only be guessing really.

 

Sorry for calling their clothing crap, I'm just trying to get my point across here!  I didn't care about their clothing.

[DawnM]

United Methodist Church

 

Oh wait, wrong thread.

 

 

What is umc?


Eta nevermind. Upper middle.class!

 

[Farrar]

One more observation and about thrift stores...

 

Shopping for decent stuff at thrift stores can take time. If you're busy working because you need to make ends meet, you don't always have that time to scour three thrift stores before you find a pair of snow boots for your ds. You just need to buy them quickly and know they're the right size. So in a way having the time to shop used can be a luxury.

[Mergath]

We have great thrift stores here, so everyone shops used.  The population is something like thirteen thousand people, but we must have six or seven thrift stores now.  A huge Goodwill just opened up a few blocks away from me, and it's fantastic.  

 

I think it's probably more regional than class-based.  We bought most stuff used when dh was unemployed and we were way below the poverty line.  Now he has a good job and we're middle class, and our shopping habits haven't really changed, except that we have slightly nicer gadgets.  There are a high number of affluent people here, so the thrift stores are filled with high end stuff.  It would be stupid not to buy used here.  If I lived somewhere where the thrift stores were filled with stained Walmart cast-offs, I'd probably buy new just because I hate throwing money away on junk.

 

I'd also like to note that this means we were fairly well-dressed even when we were broke.  Dd had an indecent amount of Ralph Lauren clothes as a toddler.  I had designer purses.  All purchased used at the thrift store.  I mean, if you're going to pick between a Walmart bag and a Kate Spade bag and you're paying three bucks apiece either way, well, you're going to end up with nice purses. ;)  I'm sure people whispered about me when I pulled my EBT card out of my fancy purse at the grocery store.  So for those of you inclined to do so, don't judge.  It's ridiculous that I had to feel ashamed of having nice things when we were broke, but now that dh makes a living wage it's suddenly okay, even though I'm still paying next to nothing for them.

[Mergath]

One more observation and about thrift stores...

 

Shopping for decent stuff at thrift stores can take time. If you're busy working because you need to make ends meet, you don't always have that time to scour three thrift stores before you find a pair of snow boots for your ds. You just need to buy them quickly and know they're the right size. So in a way having the time to shop used can be a luxury.

 

:iagree:  I only have one kid to outfit, and I still have to go at least once every two weeks and shop for several hours to keep her outfitted.  It does take time to sort through everything.  Most thrift stores aren't exactly well organized.