Q about wealth/poverty

[JumpyTheFrog]

That's a false dichotomy. If you get invested in playing the game, you're not going to fix the system. You're not going to try, because you're wrapped up IN the system.

 

How about "Don't play the game, but don't give up either. Work on making things better."

 

By "playing the game" I don't mean "underpaying your employees" or anything like that. I mean making wise financial and careers choices and doing the best you can. When I was referring to people "not playing the game" I meant people who throw their hands up and say, "Oh well, life is unfair, so I'm not even going to try to improve my education and skills in hopes of getting a better income. I'll just spend my money on wants as soon as I get some because saving is pointless."

[Catwoman]

It sounds as if poverty of mindset is just a important as poverty of income. The wrong mindset can leave a person trapped for life.

I agree -- but I believe the wrong mindset is the most important factor. If you don't believe you can improve your life, you will never even try.

[JumpyTheFrog]

And yes, I realize that many people don't have much leftover to save. But plenty of middle class families are the biggest cause of their own financial trouble.

[Tsuga]

Well excuse me for answering another poster's question about how to start out in business with $0.  I never implied being a business owner is the only decent career.

 

Also I would point out that as a successful business owner, I am a JOB CREATOR and I have never paid anyone even close to minimum wage (though I myself have worked many hours at minimum wage or less).  I am also a TAX PAYER to the max, and I also support a number of charities with both services and money, including one that I co-founded when I was still working out of my apartment subsisting and paying off mega debts.  So I beg your pardon.

 

It wasn't directed at you--not sure why you thought it was.

[Reefgazer]

This varies by state.  I have a relative who legally cuts hair in her home without such amenities.

If their homes have been evaluated and certified by the board and they have all of the necessary equipment and paraphernalia (such as a restroom that is *only* for business use....and a proper dispensary.) Yes. You can't JUST cut hair in your kitchen, legally. The same way you can't JUST have a restaurant in your house. You have to have government people come in and certify the place on a regular basis. This is part and parcel of basic consumer rights in the US.

 

**People do it all the time** But it is illegal.

 

ETA, to be crystal clear. You have to both BE licensed, and WORKING IN  a licensed establishment. You can have that in a room off your house, or in a tiny house or something. But you *do* have to be licensed both ways.

 

[EmseB]

If their homes have been evaluated and certified by the board and they have all of the necessary equipment and paraphernalia (such as a restroom that is *only* for business use....and a proper dispensary.) Yes. You can't JUST cut hair in your kitchen, legally. The same way you can't JUST have a restaurant in your house. You have to have government people come in and certify the place on a regular basis. This is part and parcel of basic consumer rights in the US.

 

**People do it all the time** But it is illegal.

 

ETA, to be crystal clear. You have to both BE licensed, and WORKING IN  a licensed establishment. You can have that in a room off your house, or in a tiny house or something. But you *do* have to be licensed both ways.

 

To be honest, most things that people did just to get by in, say, the era of the Depression and such are now cost prohibitive as a start up business for someone who is in poverty.  Selling handmade toys, selling one's own fruits and vegetables, cutting hair, working on small engines, handy man work...etc...all of that requires a license or has restrictive costs like inspection and/or labeling.  Using haircutting as an example, most states have a minimum of around 1500 hours of instruction required to obtain a license, and that's going to be at least $3000-5000 in tuition.

 

I would venture a guess that many if not most Etsy sellers and the like are operating in violation of the law.  If they are found out, they could be liable for thousands in fines.  If they aren't found out, then it's because their business is on a small enough scale that they probably aren't making enough money.

 

But, yep, consumer protection is a much bigger obstacle than it used to be to starting up a business.

[SKL]

 

Individual success is, I think, much more likely for those who believe they have a chance. That does not mean the system isn't stacked against them, though. It IS. How can someone who started off within a resource-rich family that was able to offer a good education not have better odds of living a comfortable life than someone who starts off in a resource-poor family where food on the table is not guaranteed? Yes, there are exceptions. Those born into comfort can end up poor, and those born poor can end up comfortable. 

 

Why does it matter if another person has "better odds" than me?  I'm still going to try because there isn't just one winner in the game I'm playing.  I was poor, but I never thought of my opportunities depending on the failure of those who had it easy.  I wasn't even running the same race as they.  After crossing a certain finish line, I eventually looked back and realized I'd left most of them in the dust, but that had never been my focus.

 

And starting off in a resource-poor family can be a tremendous motivator.  Hard work tastes good when you need to do it in order to eat.

 

And also, who wants to be "comfortable"?  Life is mostly work, up until your body can't do much any more.  That is not a bad thing IMO.

[SKL]

While that is true, trying does not guarantee success by any means.

 

But not trying guarantees non-success.

 

There is risk of failure in every endeavor.  That doesn't mean it isn't wise to try.

 

[Catwoman]

While that is true, trying does not guarantee success by any means.

But not trying absolutely guarantees failure.

[hornblower]

It's not that I can't see hard work paying off guys. I'm a first generation immigrant, arriving in Canada from Eastern Europe in the 70's with literally just a couple suitcases. My family worked hard.

And there was also luck.

AND there were also systemic advantages: a very good education system here, including excellent ESL programming benefited me; my mom too had access to subsidized English lessons & then went on to college (also subsidized) & became a registered nurse; THEN she worked for the government in a UNION job ---> union pay + basic national health care + union job extended health coverage + generous pension PLUS being financially sensible and investing wisely = affluence. My dad was fortunate to both be a workaholic & be trained in a unique profession which he was able to practice here & become very successful.

My excellent subsidized ESL education streamed me into the excellent school system which allowed me easily qualify for a (subsidized) university education where I got to mix with all sorts of people & meet a WASPY anglo dude from a family of lawyers & doctors & hook up with him. A gov't supported culture of multiculturalism and tolerance increased my odds of being welcomed in that social circle and in that family.

To me it's quite clear that there were numerous systemic advantages that helped us along the way.  I can't help but think if we'd gone to the US instead of Canada, things might have turned out quite differently.

[SKL]

It wasn't directed at you--not sure why you thought it was.

 

Whoever it was directed at.  Nobody implied that being a business owner is the only worthwhile career.  I think it is obnoxious to suggest that all / most business owners act or think as you described in your post.  Every successful business person I know got that way by having a vision to build something bigger than him/herself, to be better able to help others.  To earn money for charity, to hire and develop workers, to improve run-down neighborhoods, to develop innovative products and processes, to help people be the best they can be, to enjoy working with others of a similar mindset.  Your post is offensive regardless of who you felt you were responding to.

 

[Guest]

And with widespread attitudes like that, this is precisely why the system won't change. You're part of the problem.

 

 

People on Etsy undercut themselves all the time by not putting any value on the time it takes to produce these things.

 

As far as personal shopping or the "sharing economy" goes, same deal - everybody is trying to get in on the same limited amount of funds, so they sell those services dirt cheap. And when everybody is doing this, you ultimately will have to do it just to stay even, you can't rely on renting out a room to make a few extra bucks and get ahead. Darn it, I had a link on this very subject. This isn't the same one, but it'll have to do.

This is exactly the Eeyore attitude that does keep people from improving their lot. The reality, at least where I live, is that people spend money on the most surprising things. It never ceases to amaze me. There is a business springing up of professional cuddling. People pay for a session of non-sexual, gentle cuddling. (!) Kind of unimaginable, but they are in business, so there you go.

 

Years ago, I started a business cleaning homes. I had no real capital to do this, but I am a good cleaner and I had a car and cleaning implements. I got my first clients by creating a fantastic offer good for the first cleaning, printing out a couple hundred copies, and driving around, putting the flyers on mailboxes. (I later learned that this is illegal, but thankfully, nobody was motivated to call the police on a poor lady trying to make a living!)

 

This is just one idea; I'm sure it would not help everybody. The point I am making is that my resources were limited. I had no college at that time and a lackluster high school diploma. I had no financial help at all from my parents after age 18. I had no "connections" because my family was poor and not involved with anything but church. There were advantages I had and some plain dumb luck. But I didn't dwell on my disadvantages, or fail to act because I didn' t know what would happen. I did stupid things along the way. One time, in my complete ignorance at the time of what new home construction cleaning entailed, I extremely badly underbid a job on a gargantuan new home. I worked my ass off for two entire days for a measly couple hundred dollars. I had no idea that new construction is a totally different ball game and goes for over a thousand dollars easily. Well - lesson learned! I never did anything so dumb again!

[Tanaqui]

Perhaps it only seems as if the loll around.

 

No. No, actually, people who are born into wealth can make all the "mistakes" and stay wealthy, as demonstrated with the link I produced.

 

Also - the next person to talk about "bitterness" is going to hear it from me. Righteous anger is nothing to be ashamed of.

 

This is exactly the Eeyore attitude that does keep people from improving their lot. The reality, at least where I live, is that people spend money on the most surprising things. It never ceases to amaze me. There is a business springing up of professional cuddling. People pay for a session of non-sexual, gentle cuddling. (!) Kind of unimaginable, but they are in business, so there you go.

 

That's not Eeyore. It's realism. When everybody is doing this, everybody is going to suffer. It's a variety of the dual income trap. If this becomes the norm, it will no longer be sufficient to do these things to "get ahead" - you'll have to do them just to stay in place.

 

 

[Catwoman]

I think it is interesting that the people who think it's almost impossible to move up in the world seem to be thinking in terms of never becoming rich.

 

Forget rich.

 

Set a goal of an extra 20 bucks a week. Even 20 bucks is a big deal when you are having trouble paying the bills. Start tiny and work your way up from there. Don't set a goal of a million dollars a year. Set a goal of an extra thousand dollars a year, and celebrate when you reach it -- and then set another goal. And work hard to achieve it instead of sitting around and complaining about how rich people have it easy. Ok, so maybe you're not one of those "lucky" rich people, but that doesn't mean you can't build a better life for you family than you are currently living.

 

Most people aren't going to go from poverty to wealth overnight. Wealth shouldn't be the goal. The goal should be to improve your lot in life, even by a small amount, and then work up from there. If you live in a small apartment and ten years from now you own a tiny house, that is a huge thing. So what if you still don't have a Ferrari in the driveway? Your life is still better than it was, and that is what is important.

[Tanaqui]

 

Why is "comparison" important?  Why isn't it a reasonable goal that everyone who wants to work can have "enough"?  Many people work until they have enough, and then they change focus, and that is fine.

 

You mean aside from the fact that income inequality is very bad for the economy, for rich and poor alike?

 

Right now, it's not the case that "everyone who wants to work can have enough".

[Tsuga]

By "playing the game" I don't mean "underpaying your employees" or anything like that. I mean making wise financial and careers choices and doing the best you can. When I was referring to people "not playing the game" I meant people who throw their hands up and say, "Oh well, life is unfair, so I'm not even going to try to improve my education and skills in hopes of getting a better income. I'll just spend my money on wants as soon as I get some because saving is pointless."

 

If the majority of people you know think like that, you know the wrong people. If that's not the majority, why are you focused on them as an example? Most people I know think quite differently, particularly the poor. I don't know any poor people who think like what you're describing.

 

A chance of success is great, but what if you don't want to sacrifice your entire working life at a 5% chance at getting rich? The narrower the pyramid, the smaller your chance of success, and the more reasonable it becomes to refuse to make sacrifices for that.

 

Do you realize that most people I know have a Bachelor's or Master's or above, work in a STEM field or education, and still cannot buy a house and have kids at the same time? And that many of us have been employed at least part time but usually over full time our whole adult lives? And that none of us have ever owned anything nicer than a five-year-old Toyota, that being an extreme luxury?

 

What people are saying is that (a) not everyone can be rich or even well-off, and (b) the lower your chances, the less sense it makes to sacrifice the present for an uncertain future.

 

You wouldn't tell people to play the lottery. You'd tell them, "Geez, at least buy a book of crossword puzzles. Enjoy your money."

 

So given the chances at getting rich or well-off from poverty, why tell them to suffer for 10 years straight at a chance at even less money than they could win in Powerball? Your perceptions of their chances are much different than theirs, because you made it. For you, the probability of being successful is 1. For them, it's between 0 and 1, and based on people they know, it's way, way closer to 0.

 

You'd be surprised but I do think that given that not everyone can be wealthy, people are actually not that bad at assessing risk. We can't all be winners so some people must be right in choosing wage labor to live their lives rather than risking their present happiness, time with children, mental and physical health, for a chance at wealth.

 

Do they really deserve to suffer because they don't sacrifice their entire lives for a pipe dream?

[Tanaqui]

And work hard to achieve it instead of sitting around and complaining about how rich people have it easy.

 

Poor people are working hard to make the bills. They don't need to be told to work even harder - and sacrificing their health and families in the meantime - to make "an extra $20 a week", because they're already doing that. And what's the point when real incomes have done nothing but decline? Fixing your family situation is like putting a band-aid on an amputation.

[SKL]

 

Have you looked at the comparisons of other country's social mobility compared to US? I'm in Canada. We have a pretty good social safety net & yet, we're an affluent nation, hardly at risk of generational poverty.

From the article Laura posted.

 

http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/research/files/reports/2008/2/economic%20mobility%20sawhill/02_economic_mobility_sawhill_ch3.pdf

 

"

Paternal earnings had the least

effect on sons’ earnings in Canada,

Norway, Finland, and Denmark,

where less than 20 percent of

income advantages are passed

onto children. The implication

of these statistics is that in these

countries it would take three,not six, generations, to essentially

cancel out the effects of being

born into a wealthy family."

 

 

 

Earnings are not the same as wealth, so I am not sure how to interpret the above.

 

But here in the US, one of the main ways people historically failed to pass down wealth was the estate tax.  The government forcing a family to give up a business (or a large chunk of it) to pay a tax.

 

So I am not sure if that is the case in Canada or not, but I would look into that before assuming the stats mean what you imply they mean.  Are there major barriers, quite apart from individual values and behaviors, that prevent the passing down of wealth?  If so, is that considered a good or bad thing?

 

I know in the US, businesses have had to shut down or reduce workforce (i.e. fire a lot of workers) just to pay the estate tax.  So it wasn't only the dead businessman's progeny who were affected.  Chances are the heirs would have "enough" one way or the other, but the employees who didn't have a lot of options would be screwed.  So the estate tax has been the subject of reform in the USA in recent years (not sure where it will end up).

 

Personally (estate tax aside), I don't expect my kids to be able to benefit from my hard work much after they complete high school.  I expect them to develop a work ethic and a lot of skills so that they will have the chance at "enough" regardless of what I may or may not pass down.  Right now most of my wealth is invested in at-risk business, and I'm not getting any younger.  In short, I expect my kids to work hard.  That is my idea of a good life for them.  I will be disappointed if they are lazy adults.  I think most well-off parents feel the same.

[Indian summer]

So, regarding spending, I'm not white. If I don't dress at least in decent clothes (they are often used or clearance but they look nice) people will think I'm the maid. That's why I dress spiffy. I am not into clothing. I have a uniform I wear to signify that you should not ask me to empty your trash can or clear your table for you (and yes, people have asked me to do that when I was wearing cheap clothes which is how I decided to wear decent clothes in the first place).

 

But we don't spend a lot.

 

We will still never be rich for one reason: we work to contribute to society, not to get rich. We'd like to have a decent life, but it's not going to happen, because the services we provide to society are education and health. If we invested in business and made it a goal to make money, we could. We're not idiots.

 

But it's hard for us to do that because we were both raised to work, not to take. And as such, our salaries and job stability are at that level. We don't work in business.

 

We are building something--we are building a society that is not a dog-eat-dog dystopia in which the powerful provide for their children and everyone else lives in a Dickensian slum.

 

But that won't get us rich.

 

The fact is, the vast majority of people don't work to get rich, but instead work to contribute to society and were hoping to get a small house and a decent education for their kids in return. This was a stupid thing to hope for. Many businesses and the government are now paying wages that do not allow people to save. If you only own a business, you're not making things: you're paying people to make things. You're not building, you're using capital to build. The builders built it. How much did they get? Do they get a fair cut?

 

(Some people do all their own work--that's great. But that is the definition of a small business and it's very hard to get rich at that level. The getting rich is when you pay others, right? When you expand.)

 

People are working full time and not buying new cars and falling into debt. Workers are not being paid for their work. Anyone paying minimum wage is a taker. They take human lives and say the poor aren't working hard enough.

 

You shouldn't have to spend your entire life thinking about getting rich and running a business in order to just survive. Someone has to do the science, do the welding, do the analysis, do the teaching. Should those people have a living wage to buy a house over 30 years and pay for their kids' soccer lessons, or not?

 

I have done a lot of work in my life, but I wasn't selling something at a profit and paying my workers minimum wage. I have built a LOT as a member of the community, but I'm not rich because I gave what I had.

 

I never wanted to be rich, but I did think I'd be able to retire. It is looking less and less possible these days.

 

It is insulting to hear business owners suggest that we could all own businesses. Who would do your work for peanuts if we all owned businesses? Who would really make stuff, if we all owned and traded capital?

 

Nobody. I'm not opposed to business but the notion that people who are working are not making makes me want to puke. The workers are the makers and they aren't getting paid.

 

This is not utopianism, and it's not communism. It's about honest pay for honest work.

My dh and I own a business. We are not takers. We employ people and pay a very good wage because we were once employees and appreciated good wages. We want our employees to have good lives. Yes we pay people to make things. We also make things alongside our employees. Dh has a work bench and uses it daily, literally to make things. I also make things that help to keep our employees working. We also contribute to our community through charitable giving. It makes me immensely happy to employ people where those jobs didn't exist a decade ago - we created those opportunities and our employees are grateful. They have become like family and that wouldn't have happened if we were takers. To me they are irreplaceable, unlike Walmart employees. I think I'm contributing to a healthier community than the walmarts and McDonald's of the world.

 

I don't begrudge you or anyone else their careers, jobs, or buying choices. If wearing stylish clothes matters to you, good for you. I wear jeans and t's most of the time. I have been mistaken for a worker a time or two while out in public. I think it's funny. It makes me smile. Because of a chronic health condition I get judged harshly by most people most of the time. I've stopped trying to fit in in that way. It's practically a miracle for someone with my state of health to be anything but poor. No matter how hard I worked I would never get a promotion, even by employers who knew I was their strongest worker. I'm not the kind of person that anyone wants to be the face of their business. So, I (along with dh) decided if we're going to reach our goals we need to have our own business. I'm not greedy, I don't need a lot. I could live in a tiny apartment, it wouldn't bother me. Owning a business means my kids can have braces they desperately need, they can eat nutritious foods that will help preserve their health, we can afford therapy that will give them a shot at normalcy some day. They may have a shot at fitting in. Maybe. They say everything happens for a reason. This world detests people like me but I'm tough, I can take it. My illness and the way I'm treated because of it (being held down in the workplace for one) forced me to get creative about making money. If making a little money means my kids might fit in a bit (or a lot) better than I have then its my responsibility as a parent. I won't feel ashamed for the career choices we've made. I'm proud of what we've built and if anything, I'm doing my part to take business away from the large corporations. It may not make a dent, but I think it's been good for my whole community.

[I talk to the trees]

I think it is interesting that the people who think it's almost impossible to move up in the world seem to be thinking in terms of never becoming rich.

 

Forget rich.

 

Set a goal of an extra 20 bucks a week. Even 20 bucks is a big deal when you are having trouble paying the bills. Start tiny and work your way up from there. Don't set a goal of a million dollars a year. Set a goal of an extra thousand dollars a year, and celebrate when you reach it -- and then set another goal. And work hard to achieve it instead of sitting around and complaining about how rich people have it easy. Ok, so maybe you're not one of those "lucky" rich people, but that doesn't mean you can't build a better life for you family than you are currently living.

 

Most people aren't going to go from poverty to wealth overnight. Wealth shouldn't be the goal. The goal should be to improve your lot in life, even by a small amount, and then work up from there. If you live in a small apartment and ten years from now you own a tiny house, that is a huge thing. So what if you still don't have a Ferrari in the driveway? Your life is still better than it was, and that is what is important.

 

 

:hurray: :hurray: :hurray:

[Catwoman]

Maybe, or maybe it just guarantees realism. (Depending on the situation.)

 

If someone tries and fails, can we then say they're not to blame for their own poverty? Or do we just move onto saying they didn't try right, or didn't try hard enough?

We admire them for their tenacity and hard work and recognize that perhaps they chose the wrong business or job. Then we encourage them to try again.

[LucyStoner]

I think it is interesting that the people who think it's almost impossible to move up in the world seem to be thinking in terms of never becoming rich.

 

Forget rich.

 

Set a goal of an extra 20 bucks a week. Even 20 bucks is a big deal when you are having trouble paying the bills. Start tiny and work your way up from there. Don't set a goal of a million dollars a year. Set a goal of an extra thousand dollars a year, and celebrate when you reach it -- and then set another goal. And work hard to achieve it instead of sitting around and complaining about how rich people have it easy. Ok, so maybe you're not one of those "lucky" rich people, but that doesn't mean you can't build a better life for you family than you are currently living.

 

Most people aren't going to go from poverty to wealth overnight. Wealth shouldn't be the goal. The goal should be to improve your lot in life, even by a small amount, and then work up from there. If you live in a small apartment and ten years from now you own a tiny house, that is a huge thing. So what if you still don't have a Ferrari in the driveway? Your life is still better than it was, and that is what is important.

Cat, I have worked my way out of extreme poverty roots. I did it without any pep talks from people who've always had enough or more than enough.

 

Acknowledging the inequity and injustice of our system, questioning the morality of overconsumption face of deprivation, challenging the myths of bootstrapping the American Dream, being truthful that it is largely happenstance that I succeeded, being honest about my luck and my privilege, is not a self defeating or eeyore attitude. I am a pretty hopelessly optimistic person.

 

Not everything is easily answered by pollyannaish anecdotes.

 

Not everyone aspires to join the ranks of wealth either. I have better things to do with my life than acquire money for personal use.

[Indian summer]

We admire them for their tenacity and hard work and recognize that perhaps they chose the wrong business or job. Then we encourage them to try again.

Agreed. You do it until it works. If you learn from your mistakes and failures then they aren't really failures at all.

[SKL]

And although I want my kids to have to work as hard as anyone, they are not eligible for any subsidies because of me.  So I probably will have to do some things for them just to put them on equal footing with their peers who will be able to get financial aid etc.  But on the other hand, we do community service side by side, and they will know what work is when the time comes.  So who knows how they will turn out, but it's kind of silly to be resentful of my supporting my kids while the taxpayers support other young people.

[Guest]

You know, I did not wish for this conversation to turn the way it has. My original comments were meant for Mergarth, who said it was impossible or extremely unlikely. I disagree with this.

 

I have the tenderest of hearts towards people in circumstantial poverty. When all hell has hit the fan and they lack resources to move into a better position or have disadvantages that literally are unfixable, such as a chronic illness or whatever. Very sympathetic and wish I could help.

 

Maybe I'm just a dopey optimist, but I generally think things will work out when people put their heads behind it and do what they must to improve their lot. Personally, I don't even care about "rich." I don't care about symbols of wealth like Coach purses or those blinged-out jeans people wear now. I only ever cared about being comfortable, being not reluctant, say, to take a kid to the dentist, which is how I grew up. Now we have gotten to a place where I could buy those blingy jeans, but I don't want them and don't care.

[Catwoman]

Cat, I have worked my way out of extreme poverty roots. I did it without any pep talks from people who've always had enough or more than enough.

 

Acknowledging the inequity and injustice of our system, questioning the morality of overconsumption face of deprivation, challenging the myths of bootstrapping the American Dream, being truthful that it is largely happenstance that I succeeded, being honest about my luck and my privilege, is not a self defeating or eeyore attitude. I am a pretty hopelessly optimistic person.

 

Not everything is easily answered by pollyannaish anecdotes.

 

Not everyone aspires to join the ranks of wealth either. I have better things to do with my life than acquire money for personal use.

Nothing is answered or accomplished by the defeatist attitudes I have seen in this thread.

 

Nothing is accomplished by not trying.

 

Nothing is accomplished by resenting people who are financially better off than we are, and using it as an excuse to do nothing for ourselves.

[leeannpal]

But not trying absolutely guarantees failure.

 

But then, what do you say to the ones who try, give it their all, and still fail or have rotten luck? Can you see why it irks people that, just because you succeeded, it sounds as though you think everyone who "tries" is going to do just as well. If you had tried and failed, would you still look at economic issues in the same way?

 

Being "down on your luck" is a common idiom because it's true. Some people just do have rotten luck.

 

[Ausmumof3]

But not trying absolutely guarantees failure.

Not if you're in the 1pc. Then you have to try quite hard for failure...

[Tanaqui]

Nothing is answered or accomplished by the defeatist attitudes I have seen in this thread.

 

Nothing is accomplished by not trying.

 

Nothing is accomplished by resenting people who are financially better off than we are, and using it as an excuse to do nothing for ourselves.

 

Nothing is accomplished by putting words in people's mouths, or attributing attitudes and emotions to them that they haven't expressed.

 

In my view, the defeatist attitude comes from those who say "the system isn't going to change, so you'd better try to get ahead", who think that you should throw your effort into that rather into trying to fix a broken system, who would rather call it "resentment" and say that those who want to fix the system are "using it as an excuse to do nothing for themselves".

 

Fixing the system IS doing something for yourself. More than that, it's doing something for your neighbors. And noticing it is broken isn't resentment, it's the truth.

 

Maybe I'm just a dopey optimist, but I generally think things will work out when people put their heads behind it and do what they must to improve their lot.

 

You think that entirely contrary to the evidence. Our system works by having it so that some people are always going to have less than enough. If you improve your lot, somebody else has to move down a notch - and when our bottom few rungs are struggling to get by, that's a hard thing to do.

[SKL]

Our bodies are designed to deteriorate and die.  So what is the point of feeding them?  What is the point of bringing new lives into this neverending cycle of deterioration and death?  What is the point of anything?  Why do people bother conditioning their bodies?  Why do we even clean our houses when we know they are just going to get dirty again?  Whose bright idea was the lawn mower, when the grass never stops growing?  Why bother gardening when the weeds and bugs never stop interfering?  What is the point of chemotherapy when there is no guarantee it's going to cure anyone?

 

What is it about human nature that makes us choose action in line with optimism?  And why should that not apply to financial choices?

[Catwoman]

But then, what do you say to the ones who try, give it their all, and still fail or have rotten luck? Can you see why it irks people that, just because you succeeded, it sounds as though you think everyone who "tries" is going to do just as well. If you had tried and failed, would you still look at economic issues in the same way?

 

Being "down on your luck" is a common idiom because it's true. Some people just do have rotten luck.

 

No one is suggesting that everyone will succeed.

 

What is being suggested is that there is no chance for success if you don't try. I think we would all have far more respect for a person who failed and kept trying than for someone who made excuses about how it would never work anyway so they didn't even bother to try.

[SKL]

Not if you're in the 1pc. Then you have to try quite hard for failure...

 

Depends how you define failure.  I know plenty of 1%rs who fear failure and some hardworking ones who have experienced it.

 

[leeannpal]

You know, I did not wish for this conversation to turn the way it has. My original comments were meant for Mergarth, who said it was impossible or extremely unlikely. I disagree with this.

 

I have the tenderest of hearts towards people in circumstantial poverty. When all hell has hit the fan and they lack resources to move into a better position or have disadvantages that literally are unfixable, such as a chronic illness or whatever. Very sympathetic and wish I could help.

 

Maybe I'm just a dopey optimist, but I generally think things will work out when people put their heads behind it and do what they must to improve their lot. Personally, I don't even care about "rich." I don't care about symbols of wealth like Coach purses or those blinged-out jeans people wear now. I only ever cared about being comfortable, being not reluctant, say, to take a kid to the dentist, which is how I grew up. Now we have gotten to a place where I could buy those blingy jeans, but I don't want them and don't care.

 

I used to feel as you do until my husband quit a job so we could travel to China and do mission work for a year and was very underemployed for a year and a half after we returned. All our savings are just gone even though I have remained employed full-time. Also, my father, the one who is in danger of losing his hard earned business at age 78, has always been a "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" and in general a very optimistic person. But his optimism won't save his business, and my hard work won't get back the savings we had to spend in order to survive these past two years. Sometimes, it really is just unfortunate circumstances.

[Tanaqui]

What is it about human nature that makes us choose action in line with optimism?  And why should that not apply to financial choices?

 

Some of us are optimistic that widespread change is possible. Sticking with a broken system and assuming it can't change isn't very optimistic at all.

 

[Mergath]

Mergath, you seem like you are defending hopelessness. I don't get it. Is there anybody working fifty years, perpetually at minimum wage, who thinks they will be wealthy some day? I don't know anybody that dense.

 

Of course I'm not.  I'm stating that someone currently at the poverty level can't just pull themselves up by their bootstraps and become a millionaire by reusing ziploc bags and clipping coupons, the way some people here seem to suggest.

 

And "not caring about becoming rich," does not equal "hopelessness," btw.  Now that we have enough money to live without being one emergency away from homelessness, I'm not especially concerned with becoming rich.  I don't think that means that I feel hopeless.  I just have other things I care about more than money.

[creekland]

It's not that I can't see hard work paying off guys. I'm a first generation immigrant, arriving in Canada from Eastern Europe in the 70's with literally just a couple suitcases. My family worked hard.

 

And there was also luck.

 

AND there were also systemic advantages: a very good education system here, including excellent ESL programming benefited me; my mom too had access to subsidized English lessons & then went on to college (also subsidized) & became a registered nurse; THEN she worked for the government in a UNION job ---> union pay + basic national health care + union job extended health coverage + generous pension PLUS being financially sensible and investing wisely = affluence. My dad was fortunate to both be a workaholic & be trained in a unique profession which he was able to practice here & become very successful.

 

My excellent subsidized ESL education streamed me into the excellent school system which allowed me easily qualify for a (subsidized) university education where I got to mix with all sorts of people & meet a WASPY anglo dude from a family of lawyers & doctors & hook up with him. A gov't supported culture of multiculturalism and tolerance increased my odds of being welcomed in that social circle and in that family.

 

To me it's quite clear that there were numerous systemic advantages that helped us along the way.  I can't help but think if we'd gone to the US instead of Canada, things might have turned out quite differently.

 

I can name several students and adults that I know IRL through my work over the past 15 years in our local high school who can say the exact same thing about learning the language (coming here not even knowing the word for "hi"), feeling accepted, assisted, and working their way to being successful.

 

I was just talking with another one (from Bosnia) last week.  There's no doubt in my mind that he will be another success story.  He just now feels he's mostly mastered the language (as a sophomore), but is in our top classes and has that drive and "can do" attitude.

 

All of these are in the US.  We've had immigrants from Bosnia, Ukraine, China, Cameroon, Mexico, and more.  

[Catwoman]

Some of us are optimistic that widespread change is possible. Sticking with a broken system and assuming it can't change isn't very optimistic at all.

It's great to talk about a broken system and to work for change, but that doesn't help the individuals who are poor right now. They can't sit around and wait for Big Changes to happen in the future; they need to deal with the world as it is today and try to work hard and improve their own situations.

 

Saying that the odds are stacked against you and that the system needs to change may very well be true, but it doesn't absolve you from making the effort to succeed despite the challenges.

[SKL]

Oh yeah, the success of immigrants is a phenomenon in the US as well as Canada.  I'm sure some prospective immigrants prefer Canada and some prefer US for different reasons.  I think it is (or used to be) easier to legally immigrate to Canada, and yet there are a great many highly successful immigrants in the USA.

[Catwoman]

Of course I'm not. I'm stating that someone currently at the poverty level can't just pull themselves up by their bootstraps and become a millionaire by reusing ziploc bags and clipping coupons, the way some people here seem to suggest.

 

And "not caring about becoming rich," does not equal "hopelessness," btw. Now that we have enough money to live without being one emergency away from homelessness, I'm not especially concerned with becoming rich. I don't think that means that I feel hopeless. I just have other things I care about more than money.

No one has suggested that you can become a millionaire by reusing ziploc bags and clipping coupons. No one has said it would be easy, and most of us aren't suggesting that anyone set that high a goal.

 

I also don't think you are the person anyone is talking about if you are happy with where you are in life and if you are satisfied with your financial situation. Everyone has different standards for what makes them happy, and if money isn't important to you, that is fine.

[Tanaqui]

It's great to talk about a broken system and to work for change, but that doesn't help the individuals who are poor right now. They can't sit around and wait for Big Changes to happen in the future; they need to deal with the world as it is today and try to work hard and improve their own situations.

 

Telling people "oh sure, you can get ahead" is what isn't helping them! Telling them "Listen, let's change the system" is what will work. What, you think that the system is going to magically change without them? Nobody is saying "sit around and wait", I'm saying "get up and fix things". Edit: I'm not actually sure why you think I'm saying "sit around and wait". That's ridiculous.

 

Saying that the odds are stacked against you and that the system needs to change may very well be true, but it doesn't absolve you from making the effort to succeed despite the challenges.

 

Maybe I haven't been clear enough. As far as I am concerned, it is immoral to "make the effort to succeed" in a broken system when you ought to be spending that effort on improving things for everybody. It is attitudes like this that cause people to "sit around and wait" for change instead of working for a better world for everybody. It's utterly unhealthy. Dealing with the world as it is today instead of striving to change it is lazy.

 

[Catwoman]

Not if you're in the 1pc. Then you have to try quite hard for failure...

Do you really think the people in the 1% sit around all day and do nothing?

 

You are sadly mistaken.

[Catwoman]

Telling people "oh sure, you can get ahead" is what isn't helping them! Telling them "Listen, let's change the system" is what will work. What, you think that the system is going to magically change without them? Nobody is saying "sit around and wait", I'm saying "get up and fix things".

 

 

Maybe I haven't been clear enough. As far as I am concerned, it is immoral to "make the effort to succeed" in a broken system when you ought to be spending that effort on improving things for everybody. It is attitudes like this that cause people to "sit around and wait" for change instead of working for a better world for everybody. It's utterly unhealthy.

And how exactly will this be accomplished? It's wonderful to talk about how we should "get up and fix things," but what's the plan?

[Sdel]

 

Stephanie, how does one do that? I specifically have some of my relatives (on father's side) in mind. They've been poor all their lives. Many are school dropouts, some became parents very young, and others have issues with alcohol and drugs. They don't want to be poor (who does?) but have not known anything else. If they thought about things, they'd think upward mobility is impossible for them. Since that is their daily reality already, I doubt they even think about it. Then, there are mental health issues related to growing up in an abusive home. Something like financial management classes might help, but then again maybe not. Not when there's nothing to manage in the first place.

 

But those things are not financial in nature.  Certainly they make things harder though.  And you also stated a defeatist attitude as part of your justification for why someone couldn't move up.

 

What I would expect financial education to do for people is to allow them to understand money attitudes, how to work on changing their money attitudes, and identify and work to change their particular self sabotaging behaviors, how to better assess financial options.  Honestly, financial self help books accomplish this in many ways and are a dime a dozen....but in order to capitalize on this stuff, it still takes a conducive attitude, hard work, and determination.  And of course, having been taught this stuff early in life would be even more ideal.  

 

I have my own relatives that live in poverty and quite frankly I expect they will never break out.  They have their own inherent challenges (mental health and addiction), but they have just as many problems with outright indefensibly poor judgements and attitudes around work and money. But they won't fail to break out because of those challenges, they will fail because their attitude is one of apathy, making excuses, and "you can't expect more from me".  Being around them and their particular plights have not changed my opinions on this topic. 

 

Stefanie

[LucyStoner]

Nothing is answered or accomplished by the defeatist attitudes I have seen in this thread.

 

Nothing is accomplished by not trying.

 

Nothing is accomplished by resenting people who are financially better off than we are, and using it as an excuse to do nothing for ourselves.

Where do you get off telling people anything about struggling out of poverty? What experience do you have with it? You don't know the first thing about poverty and you make it very clear post in and post out you don't take any time out of your bubble to really know people who are even just average IRL, to say nothing of poor. Charity is the closest you have come to SEEING poverty to say nothing of experiencing it.

 

What, do tell, is defeatist about any of my posts or attitudes on this thread?

 

Why is the goal always supposed to be money? There is an opportunity cost to putting money and financial means ahead of other things.

[Tanaqui]

And how exactly will this be accomplished? It's wonderful to talk about how we should "get up and fix things," but what's the plan?

 

It starts with educating people about reality, rather than letting them sit around thinking things are better than they are. You need to get a critical mass of people talking about and thinking about the way the world is - and if these comments are typical (which I do believe they are), we don't have that yet. People are invested in this mass delusion of hard work and equal opportunities that doesn't actually exist, not for the majority.

 

Once you've done that, you can start looking for other models which do better on these fronts to copy. Why re-invent the wheel?

 

Of course, on my more pessimistic days I reflect that the media is owned and the government is owned and the courts are owned, but since I actually don't think violence is going to be the answer here, I try not to dwell on it.

[justamouse]

what is this atrocity that I have a quota of likes? 

:glare:

[Catwoman]

Where do you get off telling people anything about struggling out of poverty? What experience do you have with it? You don't know the first thing about poverty and you make it very clear post in and post out you don't take any time out of your bubble to really know people who are even just average IRL, to say nothing of poor. Charity is the closest you have come to SEEING poverty to say nothing of experiencing it.

 

What, do tell, is defeatist about any of my posts or attitudes on this thread?

 

Why is the goal always supposed to be money? There is an opportunity cost to putting money and financial means ahead of other things.

Wow.

 

Bitter much? :glare:

[SKL]

It's great to talk about a broken system and to work for change, but that doesn't help the individuals who are poor right now. They can't sit around and wait for Big Changes to happen in the future; they need to deal with the world as it is today and try to work hard and improve their own situations.

 

Saying that the odds are stacked against you and that the system needs to change may very well be true, but it doesn't absolve you from making the effort to succeed despite the challenges.

 

Right, I don't understand whom we're talking about here.  People in poverty, or well-off people who would like to help those in poverty?

 

When I was starting out, I wanted to change the world.  However, I was under no delusions that anyone cared what I thought about anything, without any credentials to speak of.  I had an elaborate plan.  Up to age 19, my plan was to become a special ed teacher and develop the solution to illiteracy and make a huge impact that way.  At age 19 I realized that wasn't the way to go about it, so I decided to become a businesswoman and build some wealth and then put my money where my mouth was.  And that is what I have done (as an employee and as a proprietor) over the past ~30 years.  I've made an impact.  No, I haven't wiped out poverty, but neither has my acquaintance who has made her career out of teaching and marching against capitalism (on a taxpayer-funded paycheck no less).

 

So yes, it's nice to want to fix the problems that make it hard for many to earn "enough," but hard work is going to be part of that solution.  The sooner it starts, the more impact a person can have.  And there is nothing immoral about working hard, so it's not like doing so is "part of the problem."

 

As soon as there is a socialist / communist economy that has eradicated poverty without damaging the human spirit, I will be all ears as to how getting rid of capitalism is the answer.  Meanwhile I'll continue doing what I can within the system.

[Ravin]

To what end? I think you answered this with the next sentence - his comfortable middle class life. Does your dad have minor children he should be responsible for, but isn't? If yes, then shame on him. If no, then I don't see a problem with his choosing to spend or save his money however he sees fit - it is his. Are you implying he should be held responsible for his grandchildren? He didn't choose to have grandchildren, why should he be responsible for them? Sometimes it's better for parents to let their adult children fend for themselves so as not to set up an inappropriate, codependent habit.

This is the attitude problem. Everyone for themselves, no sense of duty even to family, never mind the community or nation as a whole.

[SKL]

Telling people "oh sure, you can get ahead" is what isn't helping them! Telling them "Listen, let's change the system" is what will work. What, you think that the system is going to magically change without them? Nobody is saying "sit around and wait", I'm saying "get up and fix things". Edit: I'm not actually sure why you think I'm saying "sit around and wait". That's ridiculous.

 

 

 

OK, so I have a picture in my mind of a certain inner-city high school in a depressed neighborhood.  I am picturing you going there and telling the young men and women there (the ones who haven't already dropped out), "listen, let's change the system."  "Get up and fix things."  What exactly do you mean by that?  What is it you suggest these people do rather than accept a job that will pay them based on whatever skill level they have attained, or get some more education (subsidized) so they can earn more, or start a business selling what people want (assuming it's legal)?  You want them to get in a bus and go march on Washington?  Bomb the Federal building?  Send a letter to the newspaper editor?  What?