Q about wealth/poverty

[Ausmumof3]

Do you really think the people in the 1% sit around all day and do nothing?

 

You are sadly mistaken.

Um no? That's not what I said...

 

Some people with a large amount of inherited wealth certainly seem to spend most if their time doing incredibly dumb things, most of them are smart intelligent hardworking people.

 

It is not a character attack on rich people to acknowledge that there are certain things in our systems that favour them.

 

I'm all in favour of hard work. I'm also in favour of acknowledging that the hard work my dh and I did 15 years ago which helped us buy our own home etc won't achieve the same result for my nephew and niece in law now. The cost of property went up x 5 over a period of 7 years and while incomes increased they didn't increase to the same extent.

 

While we worked hard it was also a lot of luck that let us buy when we did.

 

Saving $20 per week is meaningless when in two years time the $20 per week is worth what $10 is today. Investing it is worthwhile if you can do it well.

[unsinkable]

Where do you get off telling people anything about struggling out of poverty? What experience do you have with it? You don't know the first thing about poverty and you make it very clear post in and post out you don't take any time out of your bubble to really know people who are even just average IRL, to say nothing of poor. Charity is the closest you have come to SEEING poverty to say nothing of experiencing it.

 

What, do tell, is defeatist about any of my posts or attitudes on this thread?

 

Why is the goal always supposed to be money? There is an opportunity cost to putting money and financial means ahead of other things.

I think you need to apply your " where do you get off " statements to yourself. You know nothing about Catwoman's background.

 

She is speaking generally, for the most part. She's not making this personal.

[hornblower]

I can name several students and adults that I know IRL through my work over the past 15 years in our local high school who can say the exact same thing about learning the language (coming here not even knowing the word for "hi"), feeling accepted, assisted, and working their way to being successful.

 

I was just talking with another one (from Bosnia) last week.  There's no doubt in my mind that he will be another success story.  He just now feels he's mostly mastered the language (as a sophomore), but is in our top classes and has that drive and "can do" attitude.

 

All of these are in the US.  We've had immigrants from Bosnia, Ukraine, China, Cameroon, Mexico, and more.  

 

But Canadian immigrants fare better:

 

"More of our immigrants strike it rich: In both the U.S. and Canada the majority of millionaires are self-made, but a larger number in Canada are immigrants, according to a BMO study—in Canada nearly half of millionaires are immigrants or second-generation residents, compared to just one-third in America."  http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/99-reasons-why-its-better-to-be-canadian/

 

& immigrants are weird anyway. I think immigrants by definition tend to be either highly self motivated to improve, or fleeing such horrific circumstances that any semblance of normality is welcomed.

 

It's trickier in so many ways for people born into poverty in our countries. 

 

& ftr, I'm not at all smug about Canada. We have a huge problem with poverty in first nations communities & much of it has to do with systemic barriers to progress.

[Reefgazer]

nm

Cat, I have worked my way out of extreme poverty roots. I did it without any pep talks from people who've always had enough or more than enough.

Acknowledging the inequity and injustice of our system, questioning the morality of overconsumption face of deprivation, challenging the myths of bootstrapping the American Dream, being truthful that it is largely happenstance that I succeeded, being honest about my luck and my privilege, is not a self defeating or eeyore attitude. I am a pretty hopelessly optimistic person.

Not everything is easily answered by pollyannaish anecdotes.

Not everyone aspires to join the ranks of wealth either. I have better things to do with my life than acquire money for personal use.

 

[SKL]

This is something important I think is rarely recognized - most multimillionaire business builders have actually tried and failed at several different businesses before finding the one they have succeeded with. Some have built immense assets and lost them all several times over. It's not luck that defines these people, but sheer tenacity. My own stepfather was extremely wealthy and successful, got laid off and lost it all over the course of being unemployed and whittling it away, and then began again working construction with a friend. He is almost 70 and now owns his own construction company as a GC, and is quite successful again, despite his previous career having been lost just a few years before retirement and being in a financial/tech field.

 

Yes!  My partners and I enjoy laughing about those ventures that turned out so strangely or just plain badly.  The stories I could tell!  But we always had multiple irons in the fire.  And also, we always took care of relationships in case we ever needed to fall back on one.  We never did, but we knew it could have happened that way.

[Indian summer]

This is the attitude problem. Everyone for themselves, no sense of duty even to family, never mind the community or nation as a whole.

Are you saying people shouldn't have the right to spend or save their own money as they see fit? If he chose to give some of his money to a local charity that feeds hungry children would you still be annoyed that his own grandchildren might not be the beneficiaries of his giving?

 

I'm charitable within my community and the world. I'm all for sharing, but I like to be the one to choose how I give or if and when I do for that matter. I also pay a lot of taxes which goes to help everyone in my community in ways I don't get to choose. it's all good.

 

And for the record, I've been generous and charitable with my extended family. But the difference is no one expects me too, no one is waiting around to be rescued. I do it because I want to give back. I do feel a responsibility to help if someone falls on hard times. But the day someone tells me I have to give x amount to so n so who is capable of doing as much or more than me, that's just not right, IMO.

[hornblower]

This is the attitude problem. Everyone for themselves, no sense of duty even to family, never mind the community or nation as a whole.

 

"At this festive season of the year, Mr Scrooge, ... it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the Poor and destitute, who suffer greatly at the present time. Many thousands are in want of common necessaries; hundreds of thousands are in want of common comforts, sir."

"Are there no prisons?"

"Plenty of prisons..."

"And the Union workhouses." demanded Scrooge. "Are they still in operation?"

"Both very busy, sir..."

"Those who are badly off must go there."

"Many can't go there; and many would rather die."

"If they would rather die," said Scrooge, "they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population."

[LucyStoner]

Wow.

 

Bitter much? :glare:

No actually, this is what you don't get. I am not bitter. I am not resentful. Not of money or those who have more of it than me. Not of you or my ILs or my friends or anyone at all.

 

I might be a little indignant for the men and women I know on the streets after a lifetime of work and struggle but I am optimistic. I might be indignant for the low income moms on this board who have to read trite advice like save $20 a week.

 

Indignant is not the same thing as bitter.

 

I could increase my earnings quite a bit if I went to work in industry. Instead I invested my FT working years into non-profits for poor families with parents in college and homeless men and women. You can't do that work while bitter. It takes optimism, a pretty much hopelessly large amount of optimism to believe that things like homelessness can be addressed meaningfully or even solved. I'm not a social worker, I'm a business and numbers person. It's not like I didn't have other options besides the non-profit sector. I do accounting and a little fund development work on the side of being a FT homeschooling mom. I could charge my clients more or switch my focus from places like prisoners rights to places that can pay me more. But I don't. Because I have another objective function in life.

 

You'd rather call me names like bitter than address any serious issues raised in my posts. That's ok but I don't accept, nor would anyone who knows me accept, that I am a bitter or resentful person. I wouldn't have done the things I have done if that were the case. I'm enjoying a pretty darn sucessful adult life and have much to be happy about. I also see much work that needs to be done.

[Tanaqui]

As soon as there is a socialist / communist economy that has eradicated poverty without damaging the human spirit, I will be all ears as to how getting rid of capitalism is the answer.  Meanwhile I'll continue doing what I can within the system.

 

It's all or nothing? Norway isn't the answer, no, you have to wait until everything is fixed?

 

Also, it's really unreasonable for you to expect me to personally have all the answers right here, right now, in a neat little package. I'm not asking you to provide the one-step bootstrap method.

 

Bitter much? :glare:

 

You know what? You need to stop calling people bitter. It's rude and dismissive - and it's generally inaccurate as well. It seems to me that some people use that word as an accusation to shut down conversation and thought.

 

 

[SKL]

But Canadian immigrants fare better:

 

"More of our immigrants strike it rich: In both the U.S. and Canada the majority of millionaires are self-made, but a larger number in Canada are immigrants, according to a BMO study—in Canada nearly half of millionaires are immigrants or second-generation residents, compared to just one-third in America."  http://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/99-reasons-why-its-better-to-be-canadian/

 

 

 

This does not logically follow.  It may be that a higher % of the Canadian population is highly educated immigrants compared to the % of the US population that is highly educated immigrants.  If so, you'd expect the % of immigrant millionaires in Canada to be higher even if the opportunities were exactly the same.

 

I think both half and one-third are high %s of millionaires, considering the % recent immigrants represent of the overall population.

[Guest]

Our bodies are designed to deteriorate and die. So what is the point of feeding them? What is the point of bringing new lives into this neverending cycle of deterioration and death? What is the point of anything? Why do people bother conditioning their bodies? Why do we even clean our houses when we know they are just going to get dirty again? Whose bright idea was the lawn mower, when the grass never stops growing? Why bother gardening when the weeds and bugs never stop interfering? What is the point of chemotherapy when there is no guarantee it's going to cure anyone?

 

What is it about human nature that makes us choose action in line with optimism? And why should that not apply to financial choices?

Yes, exactly. I am out of likes, but I had to agree with this.

[hornblower]

You know, saying that the state has some role to play in eradicating systemic barriers to progress & social advancement does not instantly make you a communist.
I promise, even if you admit that on a public forum, it doesn't mean we'll track down your ISP and send you a Communist Party membership card & monthly newsletter.

& yeah Norway, Denmark, Finland & heck, you know, Canada? Your largest trading partner? I know you guys think we're all channeling Marx but we're not.  And our human spirits aren't damaged by the fact that we have highly subsidized health care & education & welfare programs....
 

[SKL]

It's all or nothing? Norway isn't the answer, no, you have to wait until everything is fixed?

 

Also, it's really unreasonable for you to expect me to personally have all the answers right here, right now, in a neat little package. I'm not asking you to provide the one-step bootstrap method.

 

 

Well since you are criticizing people and alleging that they are part of the problem if they don't do whatever it is you think will save the world, I was assuming you had a pretty clear idea of how all the low-income youth of America can get started on it right now - before they err onto the foolish path of getting a job or something.

 

[LucyStoner]

I too have worked my way out of deep poverty. I fully acknowledge that our system is inequitable, but sitting around wringing hands over it isn't going to change the situation. Fighting to change inequities while also looking at every chance to better our individual circumstances are not mutually exclusive activities. I don't think anyone on here is saying work our tail off and don't do a thing to address inequities. I am also a classic over-consumption type, and I am sure that is based on my previous poverty. In fact, it's my default position and is something I have always had to fight. But when I fought it and conquered it, my financial circumstances became brighter, and to me, that is a message worth repeating for myself and others. I do not think bootstrapping the American Dream is a myth because I and so many people I know who did it. I do think it is harder for some than others, but bootstrapping in general is not a myth. Luck? Sometimes luck is just someone taking advantage of an opportunity in disguise. When I look back at my late teens and early twenties, I say "Damn, I was lucky!", and at times I was. But I also took advantage of opportunities that were hidden in plain sight. Luck is chance, and chances are all over for many to take advantage of.

I respect that you have a different opinion than me. For me knowing people who bootstrapped out of poverty (like hello, me!) doesn't change the fact that it isn't an option equally available to all. I could easily take credit for my changes or act like it is all a credit to me or my good decisions. But I know others who tried just as hard and made more or less the same choices but aren't able to see poverty in the rear view mirror.

 

I think there's more nuance to it than most people, coming at it from all angles and backgrounds, are willing to admit.

[justamouse]

Whoever it was directed at.  Nobody implied that being a business owner is the only worthwhile career.  I think it is obnoxious to suggest that all / most business owners act or think as you described in your post.  Every successful business person I know got that way by having a vision to build something bigger than him/herself, to be better able to help others.  To earn money for charity, to hire and develop workers, to improve run-down neighborhoods, to develop innovative products and processes, to help people be the best they can be, to enjoy working with others of a similar mindset.  Your post is offensive regardless of who you felt you were responding to.

 

 

Exactly.

 

Most people don't start businesses to only help themselves, and this is tactic #2 in the argument against the accumulation of $. The first argument is that people just don't have the same opportunity. The 2nd argument is that wealthy people are greedy. 

 

Neither are true.

 

 

 

My dh and I own a business. We are not takers. We employ people and pay a very good wage because we were once employees and appreciated good wages. We want our employees to have good lives. Yes we pay people to make things. We also make things alongside our employees. Dh has a work bench and uses it daily, literally to make things. I also make things that help to keep our employees working. We also contribute to our community through charitable giving. It makes me immensely happy to employ people where those jobs didn't exist a decade ago - we created those opportunities and our employees are grateful. They have become like family and that wouldn't have happened if we were takers. To me they are irreplaceable, unlike Walmart employees. I think I'm contributing to a healthier community than the walmarts and McDonald's of the world.

 

I don't begrudge you or anyone else their careers, jobs, or buying choices. If wearing stylish clothes matters to you, good for you. I wear jeans and t's most of the time. I have been mistaken for a worker a time or two while out in public. I think it's funny. It makes me smile. Because of a chronic health condition I get judged harshly by most people most of the time. I've stopped trying to fit in in that way. It's practically a miracle for someone with my state of health to be anything but poor. No matter how hard I worked I would never get a promotion, even by employers who knew I was their strongest worker. I'm not the kind of person that anyone wants to be the face of their business. So, I (along with dh) decided if we're going to reach our goals we need to have our own business. I'm not greedy, I don't need a lot. I could live in a tiny apartment, it wouldn't bother me. Owning a business means my kids can have braces they desperately need, they can eat nutritious foods that will help preserve their health, we can afford therapy that will give them a shot at normalcy some day. They may have a shot at fitting in. Maybe. They say everything happens for a reason. This world detests people like me but I'm tough, I can take it. My illness and the way I'm treated because of it (being held down in the workplace for one) forced me to get creative about making money. If making a little money means my kids might fit in a bit (or a lot) better than I have then its my responsibility as a parent. I won't feel ashamed for the career choices we've made. I'm proud of what we've built and if anything, I'm doing my part to take business away from the large corporations. It may not make a dent, but I think it's been good for my whole community.

 

 

This is the attitude problem. Everyone for themselves, no sense of duty even to family, never mind the community or nation as a whole.

If you actually read the above posts, you'll realize that you are sorely mistaken. 

 

Small business owners want to succeed because most of us have deep ties and love our communities. We pride ourselves in hiring local people, and we like being an asset within the community. We like being able to give back. I LOVE being able to hire someone that is in dire straights, or even recently keep someone on that needed those extra few weeks of pay so he could move his family to another state with ease. 

 

I help the economy by patronizing other small local businesses, from eateries, to machinists, to second hand equipment sales, office cleaners, accountants...

 

Your POV? is actually the most damaging to the community and the nation as a whole. 

 

When you're poor and you don't want to see a way out? You're NOT going to be in a position to help anyone because you're having to work your whole life to help yourself. 

[SKL]

You know, saying that the state has some role to play in eradicating systemic barriers to progress & social advancement does not instantly make you a communist.

I promise, even if you admit that on a public forum, it doesn't mean we'll track down your ISP and send you a Communist Party membership card & monthly newsletter.

 

& yeah Norway, Denmark, Finland & heck, you know, Canada? Your largest trading partner? I know you guys think we're all channeling Marx but we're not.  And our human spirits aren't damaged by the fact that we have highly subsidized health care & education & welfare programs....

 

 

No, I wasn't talking about Canada with respect to damaging human spirits.  Canada has not wiped out poverty as far as I know, so why would you think I was talking about Canada?

 

We have our share of subsidies here as well, and we obviously haven't wiped out poverty either.

[Guest]

You think that entirely contrary to the evidence. Our system works by having it so that some people are always going to have less than enough. If you improve your lot, somebody else has to move down a notch - and when our bottom few rungs are struggling to get by, that's a hard thing to do.

 

That is BULL. I could not face the day every day if I believed this. IME, improving our lot has provided dh and me with opportunities to help others move up, too. There is a young man employed in our company who came from dirt. Appalachian poor, you follow? He didn't have much going for him except a willingness to learn and a desire to move out of his "Trailer Folk" sphere. Because he is a great employee, we take good care of him. He can buy tools on our account; he provides handyman work on the side. He has use of a vehicle. He bought a fixer house, which he can rehab because he has tools and skills gained on the job. He is not rich, no. But he has improved his lot in life and our business existing is one reason why.

 

This is true everywhere.

[Reefgazer]

But there are a lot of people who see their most important duty as instilling financial and literal independence in their offspring and consider that their gift to them, so that the offspring can stand alone after they are gone.  Don't ask me how I know this - I could write a book.  Suffice it to say, older person with cash was right about that.  I get that not everyone thinks that way, but there are even millionaires who made the news that refuse to leave one red cent to their kids.  I doubt they all hate their kids, and since they parceled out their money for charity, it doesn't seem greed is a factor either.

This is the attitude problem. Everyone for themselves, no sense of duty even to family, never mind the community or nation as a whole.

 

[Sdel]

I did say that believing it is not possible to move beyond poverty makes it harder to do so, but I would never refer to that as a defeatist attitude. That attitude comes from somewhere. It is based in reality. Mental health problems and addiction are great examples of why saying "you can't expect more from me" is realistic, rather than making excuses or being apathetic. It's complicated, isn't it? So, so much more complicated than "individuals are to blame for their own poverty"?

Except that in their case "you can't expect more" isn't realistic.....it's an excuse to be lazy. It stems from laziness and not capability. We have seen enough evidence when they are held to the fire that they can, they just don't want to have to. And that just isn't excusable. I personally have never said that it is all about attitude. But at the same time I don't think you can divorce personal choices and attitudes from outcomes. It is like nature and nurture. Our situations arise out of a cascade of choices and factors, internal and external.

[hornblower]

No, I wasn't talking about Canada with respect to damaging human spirits.  Canada has not wiped out poverty as far as I know, so why would you think I was talking about Canada?

 

 

 

but as pointed out above, we have way better mobility than you guys do (ie. the odds of breaking out of a cycle of poverty) & we DO have lower poverty rates overall. Eradicating poverty is, even for me - a dyed in the wool leftie - something I can't envisage anyone managing to achieve.

 

We do have lower rates of child poverty, working age poverty and elderly poverty.

 

So hey, why not try to be just a bit more like us?

[Reefgazer]

I am out of likes, but I do agree that not everyone can make it out of poverty and that the situation is more nuanced than black and white.  I do think most can better themselves and their circumstances with effort, barring addiction, disease, and mental illness.  But I will take full credit for my efforts, because without them I would have nothing, period.  The attitude of many on the board is that effort is worthless for some people, but I disagree with that in general and I think the inability to get out of poverty in any way and by any measure is the exception and not the rule.

I respect that you have a different opinion than me. For me knowing people who bootstrapped out of poverty (like hello, me!) doesn't change the fact that it isn't an option equally available to all. I could easily take credit for my changes or act like it is all a credit to me or my good decisions. But I know others who tried just as hard and made more or less the same choices but aren't able to see poverty in the rear view mirror.

I think there's more nuance to it than most people, coming at it from all angles and backgrounds, are willing to admit.

 

[justamouse]

I don't know the people you are talking about. I do know that something that appears to be laziness to those looking in from the outside can be so much more, especially for people dealing with mental health challenges and addictions. 

I have a family member that works for a very big city DA. Every day she walks by section 8 housing with Benz's with all kinds of modifications on them. Every day kids are in court for really dumb reasons and they should know better. I think perpetual poverty has a lot more to do with horrible decisions/family culture than the few that are held back because of health reasons. 

 

 

[SKL]

but as pointed out above, we have way better mobility than you guys do (ie. the odds of breaking out of a cycle of poverty) & we DO have lower poverty rates overall. Eradicating poverty is, even for me - a dyed in the wool leftie - something I can't envisage anyone managing to achieve.

 

We do have lower rates of child poverty, working age poverty and elderly poverty.

 

So hey, why not try to be just a bit more like us?

 

I'm not even going to go there.

 

I like Canada and Canadians but emulating your government is not what this thread is about, I don't think.

 

[LucyStoner]

I am out of likes, but I do agree that not everyone can make it out of poverty and that the situation is more nuanced than black and white. I do think most can better themselves and their circumstances with effort, barring addiction, disease, and mental illness. But I will take full credit for my efforts, because without them I would have nothing, period. The attitude of many on the board is that effort is worthless for some people, but I disagree with that in general and I think the inability to get out of poverty in any way and by any measure is the exception and not the rule.

I don't think anyone is saying effort is worthless. I think that's oversimplifying it.

 

And I agree you should take credit for yourself, but I just ask that we all take the time to be cognizant of the fact that others work as hard, as well and didn't get the same results.

 

I think we do need to evaluate the general idea though that success in life is one and the same with financial success. I would bet that you would agree with that. We probably have a fair bit in common in some ways.

[LucyStoner]

I recall reading a book, the title escapes me. It was non-fiction, the author was a journalist who'd become a SAHM and ended up writing a book about how that wasn't valued in our culture in a meaningful way. One of the things she wrote about was the selective narratives of some sucessful people. She told a story about Clarence Thomas and when he was climbing the ranks. He used the welfare queen story about a close female relative (I forget if it was a sister or a cousin?). He said that she was waiting by the mailbox for the government check and compared this to himself. He also failed to mention that she was the primary caregiver for an elderly woman (again I forget but I want to say an aunt or grandmother who helped raise him) Justice Thomas was indebted to. That while she was home caring for this elder, he was climbing up and out. And he didn't bother to note that this free caregiving to some extent freed him to do so. There can be success, even in poverty. Those who climb out of poverty are also often able to do so in part because of others.

 

God, I'm going to wake up at 3am with this book title and author on my tongue. Ack.

[idnib]

I wasn't talking about the people on this thread. I was talking about the ones with (again, as per the quoted portion of your comment, which I replied to) "income advantages" from birth.

 

Wh do you think everyone in this thread hasn't had "income advantages" from birth? How would you define "income advantages" then? I must be missing something.

[Guest]

. It's complicated, isn't it? So, so much more complicated than "individuals are to blame for their own poverty"?

It is. Is anyone saying this? I am definitely not.

[Guest]

Ah, c'mon all. It's very clear both sides of the argument aren't going to agree with each other, though I have had stern words with my family about diversifying the grocery budget, and ds has promised to lend me his birthday money to start up an Etsy shop - the snark shop ? - so some of us are paying attention.

 

So shall we keep squabbling for another 20 pages, or shall we say to ourselves, 'hmm, perhaps I do not have the answer to structural poverty, let me muse on this in silence over the Christmas season."

I do not have the answer to structural poverty. The Time Factor will mean that I, at least, cannot go on for twenty more pages; I have already wasted to much; TWTM being my latté that I could have invested better.

 

Interestingly, I recently participated in a poverty simulation for a college class (even though I told the prof it wasn't necessary; I could just re-visit my roots and that would do). I find it fascinating, but also disturbing, that the way the roles were handed out included both situations beyond control, as well as choices, which largely turned out to be bad choices. So, for example, in my fictional family, my 17yo brother quit school, impregnated a girl and was busted selling drugs to an undercover. I got suspended from school for cheating. So my fictional mom was trying to make ends meet, find employment and we kids keep screwing up. It bothers me that this was the script, because there is no certainty that we kids would screw up like this. Anyway, the class did make me think a good bit about poverty where I live. I even posted about it here.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Yes, I did read your post.  Kindly do the same courtesy for me before you respond.

 

I will disagree that 'not paying for shelter, food, or medical care counts as deprivation'. There are opportunities to meet these needs for nothing, if one is savvy.  Plenty of people know how, and use them to supplement their income. They use their own income for nonnecessities.

 

Perhaps you could define "how much is enough" , since you are saying that Mr. Hypothetical can't reach 'enough'.

 

 

I read the whole thread so I could find out the ways to get free food, shelter, clothing and medical care but you never came back and said.

 

 

I think it is interesting that the people who think it's almost impossible to move up in the world seem to be thinking in terms of never becoming rich.

 

Forget rich.

 

Set a goal of an extra 20 bucks a week. Even 20 bucks is a big deal when you are having trouble paying the bills. Start tiny and work your way up from there. Don't set a goal of a million dollars a year. Set a goal of an extra thousand dollars a year, and celebrate when you reach it -- and then set another goal. And work hard to achieve it instead of sitting around and complaining about how rich people have it easy. Ok, so maybe you're not one of those "lucky" rich people, but that doesn't mean you can't build a better life for you family than you are currently living.

 

Most people aren't going to go from poverty to wealth overnight. Wealth shouldn't be the goal. The goal should be to improve your lot in life, even by a small amount, and then work up from there. If you live in a small apartment and ten years from now you own a tiny house, that is a huge thing. So what if you still don't have a Ferrari in the driveway? Your life is still better than it was, and that is what is important.

 

I'd define "poor" as where I and five zillion other people are right now -- habitually coming up far more than $20/wk short for essentials with zero chance of saving $20 per week. Until you know what that is like, and you are surrounded by others for whom it is also true, this advice is crap. You are a lovely person and a compassionate friend to these boards, always, but if you don't know what it is to run out of food and gas before payday every week, or be unable to buy OTC meds or have to cancel the needed dr appt, you might not see why advice of the "save just $20/wk" type is crap.

 

I don't complain about how the rich have it easy. I do complain about the change in politics and economy that have decimated my husband's industry in this city, and I complain about inflation and over-regulation, both of which make it harder for me to carry on the fight and survive. But I don't hate rich people. I'm in the category of situational poverty which isn't about entitlement or aid -- we receive none even though we are totally eligible because we are trying to teach our children to work harder as the default response to hard times -- with our own chance of financial success growing less likely every passing day. Our children, OTOH, have every opportunity to succeed, because all this poverty has been about being here to raise them to succeed. Not just financially, either. Being here to educate them myself means that they are eminently employable, nearly guaranteed a free ride at college, and possessing of character and work ethic to climb any ladders that they see fit to climb.

 

Which I hope at least one of them will climb some sort of ladder to afford a decent lifestyle for himself, because DH and I are going to need somewhere to park our mobile home or perhaps our tent. I'm angling for a homemade yurt but we'll see.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Caravan in the driveway of prosperous child - that's my retirement plan too! I'm looking forward to it. Ds has said he'll build me a covered walkway from the caravan to the door of his house, plus throw in use of the kitchen and bathroom.

 

 

One of my sons is planning to build me a little log cabin on a corner of his place in the country. Which is lovely, and like him to offer, but he is also the son most likely to be a minister and social worker in an economically depressed setting so I'm not counting on the cabin. LOL

 

Srsly, when my youngest graduates I'll be working two jobs, probably, to make up for a really bad decade, and DH will faithfully work himself into the ground. So our real retirement plan is to stay healthy and work, work, work while we can.

[aggieamy]

Does she know if these Benz are brand new or used? Really, I just went to Craigslist and saw lots of them under $5000, from 2000 to 2006. That's why you'll see many "not high income" people driving luxury cars, because so many of them don't hold their value after several years.

 

I drive a 2004 Mercedes - buying one used is not a deal.  Ask me about replacing the brakes ($2k) or replacing the struts ($1k) or an oil change ($150).  My DH is very handy and he doesn't even own the tools necessary to work on it.  People aren't buying these cars because they're a deal later on.  People buy used Toyota Corollas because they're a great deal in ten years.  People buy them because they're a status symbol.  (Or because of the fantastic safety ratings but I don't think that's it for most people.)

[Laura Corin]

I drive a 2004 Mercedes - buying one used is not a deal.  Ask me about replacing the brakes ($2k) or replacing the struts ($1k) or an oil change ($150).  My DH is very handy and he doesn't even own the tools necessary to work on it.  People aren't buying these cars because they're a deal later on.  People buy used Toyota Corollas because they're a great deal in ten years.  People buy them because they're a status symbol.  (Or because of the fantastic safety ratings but I don't think that's it for most people.)

 

Husband used to drive a used BMW, which he had thought of as a great deal.  Apart from being useless in the snow, the car also cost a ton to repair.  He now drives a Ford Focus, which is cheap as chips to maintain.

 

L

[aggieamy]

Husband used to drive a used BMW, which he had thought of as a great deal.  Apart from being useless in the snow, the car also cost a ton to repair.  He now drives a Ford Focus, which is cheap as chips to maintain.

 

L

 

I really like a station wagon and have been secretly eyeing the Ford Flex but the Mercedes runs great now and I can't come up with a good reason to get rid of a car that doesn't have problems.  

[QueenCat]

Not true. If they make themselves financially literate they would invest that $18 000 annually and make a ton of interest. They should have way more than $900, 000. And even if they didn't, what's wrong with $900, 000? That's an awesome amount!

 

If they invest the $18,000, what do they eat and where do they sleep?

[idnib]

If they invest the $18,000, what do they eat and where do they sleep?

 

It doesn't take that into account because Mergath's own example was one in which they literally invested every penny of their minimum wage earnings.

 

Of course that would be impossible, but it was to demonstrate that even if every penny were to be invested with no place to sleep or no food to eat, this would be the outcome.

 

I don't understand the people are asking why posters are not taking expenses into account when the original example was based on the idea of an outcome based on literally no expenses. People are just answering the question....

[elegantlion]

If they invest the $18,000, what do they eat and where do they sleep?

 

Apparently in a van down by the river. 

[Mergath]

It doesn't take that into account because Mergath's own example was one in which they literally invested every penny of their minimum wage earnings.

 

Of course that would be impossible, but it was to demonstrate that even if every penny were to be invested with no place to sleep or no food to eat, this would be the outcome.

 

I don't understand the people are asking why posters are not taking expenses into account when the original example was based on the idea of an outcome based on literally no expenses. People are just answering the question....

 

Yep, I was trying to make a point about how little a low-wage income really adds up to over the years, even if expenses are minimized to literally nothing.  

[Caroline]

Apparently in a van down by the river.

Or in Heigh Ho's magical land she talks about.

[Mergath]

Apparently in a van down by the river. 

 

With the price of waterfront property nowadays, most of us probably couldn't even afford that.

[Mergath]

Or in Heigh Ho's magical land she talks about.

 

Where the food and rent are free and minimum-wage workers can take the company car for a spin whenever they need to run errands...  

[Tsuga]

 

I do think some of this advice can be really useful for people who have a spending, not an income, problem. If you have an income problem, however, you are pretty limited in how well you can apply otherwise good advice.

 

This summarizes the whole thread. Thank you.

 

The assumption is that people are poor because they have a spending problem.

 

It's NEVER that they aren't paid a living wage, enough to save. Of course not.

 

How could you have too little if you're working?

 

Right? Is that the question? If you're both working 60 hours a week, it should be impossible to not save, right?

 

I get that business owners aren't evil. What I can't understand is why the people who actually make things and produce goods should not be able to just live their lives and have enough to eventually retire and have children who have a chance at an education.

 

Can anyone explain that?

 

Is it so wrong to work as an astronomer, a biologist, a teacher? Do we really deserve to live on the edge?

 

 

There are opportunities to meet [food, shelter, clothing needs] for nothing, if one is savvy.

 

Where I come from that's called theft or begging. Begging is fine if you must but you cannot seriously suggest that people suck up public resources so they can invest "spare" cash in business or investments!

 

This is really one of the most revealing posts on this thread.

 

Imagine being willing to take free food when you have cash, so you can save up for your business. Some people truly have no shame.

 

"There's enough pie for everyone, which is why I'll take a whole pie for myself. I'm sure you can find your own... somewhere... HEY DON'T TAKE MY PIE! I EARNED THAT!!!!"

 

[elegantlion]

 

 

Srsly, when my youngest graduates I'll be working two jobs, probably, to make up for a really bad decade, and DH will faithfully work himself into the ground. So our real retirement plan is to stay healthy and work, work, work while we can.

 

This is the scenario I've seen in many families. A bad week can be made up, a bad month makes you bite your nails, a bad season forces you to make different choices for that time, a bad year can be enough to piss you off, and it's hard to pick up from that if you own a business. It can easily snowball into a bad five year or ten despite working hard, smart, all hours in all kinds of weather through all kinds of crises. 

 

I've seen too many men in the 40s break or break down from the stress. Mental illness, health issues, suicide (attempted or otherwise) because despite working their assets off for years, they were not getting ahead and barely doing enough to maintain the status quo. I've seen men have to change jobs or industries and start at much lower wages than before. It takes time to reshuffle, especially for those caught in the housing bust. It's a humbling experience to see a man who has worked his tail off most of his life break. Some get up, some don't. In my case, he didn't and I'm starting over at below the poverty level. 

[Arcadia]

Where the food and rent are free and minimum-wage workers can take the company car for a spin whenever they need to run errands...

My middle class aunt's live-in domestic helper does that and her helper's wage is above minimum but my aunt cannot afford much more.

 

The local to me news says San Jose has one of the highest homeless rate in the country. It is common to see homeless people outside SJSU.

 

" But the stark reality is Santa Clara County has one of the country's most acute homeless problems. About 5,000 people are on San Jose streets on any given night." (From Mercury News

"San Jose shuts down notorious homeless encampment)

http://www.mercurynews.com/bay-area-news/ci_27066589/jungle-san-jose-shuts-down-notorious-homeless-encampment

[Sherry in OH]

I drive a 2004 Mercedes - buying one used is not a deal.  Ask me about replacing the brakes ($2k) or replacing the struts ($1k) or an oil change ($150).  My DH is very handy and he doesn't even own the tools necessary to work on it.  People aren't buying these cars because they're a deal later on.  People buy used Toyota Corollas because they're a great deal in ten years.  People buy them because they're a status symbol.  (Or because of the fantastic safety ratings but I don't think that's it for most people.)

My mother once bought a used-Audi from an attorney.  The car was only a few years old.  She paid $900 for it and thought it was a steal.  That is until she took it be serviced.  And then parts started failing.  Each part had to be special ordered from Germany and could only be installed by an authorized dealer.   She traded it in on a more practical vehicle in less than a year.  The Audi was a dream to drive though, at least when it was operational.

 

And then there is the Mercedes dh owned when we first met.  On our first date he had to start it with a screwdriver because the ignition was broken.  His repair bills were running $1000 every other month.  But, he loved that car.  He reluctantly sold it after we were married.  We bought a reliable Toyota instead.  

[creekland]

"At this festive season of the year, Mr Scrooge, ... it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the Poor and destitute, who suffer greatly at the present time. Many thousands are in want of common necessaries; hundreds of thousands are in want of common comforts, sir."

"Are there no prisons?"

"Plenty of prisons..."

"And the Union workhouses." demanded Scrooge. "Are they still in operation?"

"Both very busy, sir..."

"Those who are badly off must go there."

"Many can't go there; and many would rather die."

"If they would rather die," said Scrooge, "they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population."

 

I suspect that this post ought to be the one causing me to leave this thread.

 

Let it suffice to say good luck (seriously) to those who read this thread and realize people can change their situation.  It's been done multiple times and most first world countries have ways that one can do it.  I'm a big advocate of our community college programs that give job skills for jobs that are higher paying.  Once one gets a decent paying job, then they can consider what else they want to do (if they want more - not all do).

 

For those who want to wait for the system to change - good luck with that too.  I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

Otherwise, I have no desire to go into who gives what to charity year round.

 

Do you think a society without poverty would be possible? If so, do you think it would become possible if people stopped making dumb decisions, however you want to word and define that?

 

No.  There are simply attitudes and patterns that can't be changed in an individual. Their sibling might change, but not every individual will.  It's not really dumb decisions - it's lack of seeing how to change, and if given that knowledge, lack of determination TO change.  (This, of course, does not account for those with medical issues which is a totally different thread IMO.)

 

I've had students tell me they PLAN to not do much with their lives and live off the gov't through unemployment and welfare, etc.  Welfare has limits now, so that helps, but unemployment is easier.  I could go far more into this with examples IRL, but I see no point to be honest.

 

I read the whole thread so I could find out the ways to get free food, shelter, clothing and medical care but you never came back and said.

...

I'm in the category of situational poverty which isn't about entitlement or aid -- we receive none even though we are totally eligible because we are trying to teach our children to work harder as the default response to hard times -- with our own chance of financial success growing less likely every passing day.

...

Which I hope at least one of them will climb some sort of ladder to afford a decent lifestyle for himself, because DH and I are going to need somewhere to park our mobile home or perhaps our tent. I'm angling for a homemade yurt but we'll see.

 

But this isn't right IMO either.  I WANT those safety nets (aid) there for people who are in situational deals.  That's what I pay in (willingly) for!  There are many who are literally just in a bind for a set period of time and CAN help themselves a bit more easily if some of the basics are paid for for them.

 

I WANT food stamps available.  I WANT WIC available. I WANT medicare, unemployment, welfare, etc, etc, etc, to help people get out of their situation.

 

What I don't want are those who game the system.

 

For the student I mentioned earlier in the thread where I gave him lunch money for the week, I WANT him to eat at no cost to him or his family if they are in a bind at the moment, and in his case, I don't care what the issues are with mom & dad.  No child should go hungry - even high schoolers.  Sometimes it really does take a village.  In the meantime, he is putting forth effort to get his education.  He's not one of those telling me he plans to live off the system, so to me, it's a win-win.

 

If any of this applies to you - by all means - PLEASE use these things without feeling shame or whatever word should be used.

 

And for us?  We've said retirement will include driving to each of our boy's houses.  When one of them gets tired of us, they'll give us gas money to get to a brother's house.  ;)  Middle son will take care of our medical needs.  Oldest will handle our finances.  Youngest will provide entertainment.

 

'Cause just MAYBE, we're not in that Scrooge category due to our beliefs about work and attitude, etc.  I've no desire to be a millionaire even though hubby has a good job (and owns his own business) due to his education and work ethic. 

[aggieamy]

People buy new luxury cars because they're a status symbol, too, right? Maybe it is a deal to them but not for you.? Why begrudge someone with $5000 to spend and they choose a Mercedes? They'd probably last longer than many other $5000 crap cars, and can always be sold to someone else for a few thousand who want to experience the feel of owning a cool car. I see her comments as just another way of dissing poor people.ooohh, I walked past section 8 homes and you wouldn't believe all the high end cars those people drive.... It's the same crap as bitching about someone whipping out their food stamp card from a Coach purse, or buying a god forsaken shrimp "when I can't even buy that for my own kids"!

 

It is a status symbol.  I don't deny that.  I think all the discussion saying that people are buying them used for $5k because they aren't status symbols is silly.  My car is a heckuva lot less reliable than my friend's 2004 Honda and it's probably worth the same amount of money.  My stroller is a status symbol is too.  Sometimes I buy status symbols.  The discussion isn't on if it's okay for me as a middle aged mom doing okay financially to buy a status symbol. 

 

The discussion is on certain people making poor choices that keep them in poverty.  

 

I would state emphatically that if people are not able to support themselves then they are making extremely poor financial decisions and will have a difficult time getting ahead if they drive status symbol vehicles that are extremely expensive to maintain and are unreliable.  

 

Anyone want to argue that point with me?!?!

[creekland]

Since we're comparing vehicles... our newest car is a 2002 Ford Focus.  We also own a 1997 Ford F 150.  We have no plans to change either until we have to.  They both run just fine.

[aggieamy]

My mother once bought a used-Audi from an attorney.  The car was only a few years old.  She paid $900 for it and thought it was a steal.  That is until she took it be serviced.  And then parts started failing.  Each part had to be special ordered from Germany and could only be installed by an authorized dealer.   She traded it in on a more practical vehicle in less than a year.  The Audi was a dream to drive though, at least when it was operational.

 

And then there is the Mercedes dh owned when we first met.  On our first date he had to start it with a screwdriver because the ignition was broken.  His repair bills were running $1000 every other month.  But, he loved that car.  He reluctantly sold it after we were married.  We bought a reliable Toyota instead.  

 

That is the problem ... these German cars are just so much fun to drive.  I had a BMW when I was young that would fly.  When it ran that is.  When I think of it I still get a misty look in my eye. The last time my car went into the shop I teased DH that I wanted to run by the Jag dealership.  You know, because I wanted something less reliable than a Mercedes.  

 

Obviously I have no business buying my own vehicles.  

 

*Tangent over*

[SKL]

OK but you don't need to invest $18,000 per year to be financially secure either.

[LucyStoner]

Poor people who buy status symbols do so for the same reasons anyone else does- because they have bought into the notion that status is for sale.