Q about wealth/poverty

[Catwoman]

I know you really believe this because things have worked out for you. My father had the most optimistic outlook on life of anyone I know. He really believed that he could own a business and do well with it. And he did for almost 40 years. And then the economic depression happened. He may lose the business soon. While he still believes that Capitalism is the best economic system in the world, his optimist ideas that anyone can succeed if they just try hard enough have been tempered greatly. He now understands that luck has much more to do with success than wishful thinking. Oh, and we are both Christians, and the Bible bears this out too. Remember, "it rains on the just and the unjust."

I'm so sorry to hear about your father. It is bad enough to lose a business when you've only been working at it for a short time, but after 40 years... I can't even imagine. :(

[leeannpal]

I'm so sorry to hear about your father. It is bad enough to lose a business when you've only been working at it for a short time, but after 40 years... I can't even imagine. :(

 

Thank you :) I know his situation has really changed how I view money and security, in some ways, for the better. I know as a Christian I really want to understand how to rely on and trust God better. My dad has a been a great example of that recently.

[idnib]

I thought you can only get one per person in your home so for us it would be dh, dd1, dd2, and myself. I do our taxes, I'm sure there are things I could deduct but don't since it wouldn't be over the standard deduction.

 

Here's a link to explain the differences between allowances, exemptions, and deductions. I'm talking about allowances, which effect the amount of tax withheld throughout the year. Deductions are taken at tax filing time.

 

When you start working at a job you fill out a W-4 and there's a worksheet to calculate your allowances and that helps your employer figure out how much to withhold from your paycheck. Theoretically they don't know how many dependents you have, whether you own a side business or rental property, etc, so they have you do the worksheet to give them an idea.

 

The worksheet is very generic, though, and based on the number of dependents. Other factors, deductions, side businesses, etc that are not taken into account on it can cause too much or too little tax to be withheld for your individual situation. If you find yourself getting a large refund at the end you can ask your employer to adjust your withholding to less by increasing your allowances. This will give you more money throughout the year. If you're good at saving and have access to extra income, you want to owe the taxes at the end. If you're worried you won't have the money at the end if it's left to you, try to break even.

[linguistmama]

People used to be able to get the EIC throughout the year in their paychecks. That went away about 4 years ago so many people have to wait until tax time for that refund, they can't change the adjustment to get part of it with each paycheck. Though if your income tax owed is consistently 0 you can file a w-4 that makes him as exempt from FICA withholding. Just be sure to file a new w-4 if your income rises.

Do you have a link for being exempt from FICA withholding when not owing income tax for a period of time? I googled for more info, but only found links about students working at their school etc.

[StephanieZ]

The answers in this thread make me feel stabby.

 

I have a Prada handbag purchased $12 at Goodwill and a 2006 144K mile car with a dent in the side door. My kids attend a small, private school that I could not pay for if I didn't work there. My dd won't  get into top schools - aligned with her GPA and ability - because I couldn't access premier test prep. For YEARS, financial choices looked like this:

 

Float car insurance or be late on rent?

Get to the dentist or make the car payment on time?

Save for new glasses or a down payment on another junk car?

 

Here is my list of opinions on the  topic, born of blood, sweat, tears, and sleepless nights.

 

1. The American Dream was largely a myth all along, but is even more so now.
2. While my Dad (84) was able to work his way up from janitor to Assistant Manager in a public utility in NJ, the ability to do that has largely disappeared.
3. Being poor is not inherently virtuous or spiritual.
4. Being comfortable or financially stable is not inherently virtuous, either.
5. You can't accurately judge anyone's work ethic based on their financial status.
6. You can't accurately judge anyone's character on their financial status.
7. You can't accurately judge anyone's spirituality or spirit based on financial status.
8. Most people live paycheck to paycheck.

After a decade of working my ass off, for one year, I will be at a high "income" level. But it tells an incomplete story. Some of that will go away in May, when my dd graduates high school and her benefits on her father's record stop - just in time for her college. When my son graduates high school, his benefits will go away and I will stop working 7 days a week. Although I will have a full time job, and a small private practice, I won't make up the income I have for the next 5 months - but I will have MORE, not less, expenses with my kids in college and my FAFSA reflecting a very inaccurate picture.

 

As usual, a significant amount of the content of this thread ignores the fact that low income workers don't have the time to plan, shop, cook, in the ways people are happy to trot out as panaceas to the challenges of low income living.

 

The cycle of living at low income is insidious.

 

 

FYI, I believe you can get your EFC adjusted at many colleges if your most recent FAFSA isn't reflective of recent changes in financial status. So, be sure to talk to a financial aid counselor at your kid(s) school(s). 

[LucyStoner]

Do you have a link for being exempt from FICA withholding when not owing income tax for a period of time? I googled for more info, but only found links about students working at their school etc.

On the w4 there is a box to check if your tax liability was zero last year and you expect it to be zero this year that you are exempt. Line 7:

 

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw4.pdf

 

I claim exemption from withholding for 2015, and I certify that I meet both of the following conditions for exemption.

• Last year I had a right to a refund of all federal income tax withheld because I had no tax liability, and

• This year I expect a refund of all federal income tax withheld because I expect to have no tax liability.

If you meet both conditions, write “Exempt†here . . . . . . . . . . . .

 

 

You should update the w 4 on file with your employer whenever your tax circumstances change. Many do this once on hire and never update it, which leads to under and over withholding. You are allowed to update your w4 at anytime in the year. You just turn in a new one to your employer.

[LucyStoner]

Accidental post.

[mommaduck]

What I do find interesting is when someone talks about how anyone can succeed in business by the bootstrap ideals and then they go on to list the financial and social support system they had while they were building their business. Not everyone has this and it's crucial to building a business.

[Murphy101]

What I do find interesting is when someone talks about how anyone can succeed in business by the bootstrap ideals and then they go on to list the financial and social support system they had while they were building their business. Not everyone has this and it's crucial to building a business.

Oh good golly. Don't even get me started.

I once had someone just go on and on about how they started from nothing.

Except they were also saying how their mother gave them a house. And their spouses dad bought them a start up. But that's "all". They never accepted a handout or had to get "mooch stamps" even when things were "really rough" for them.

I was just speechless. Which was probably for the best.

[Joanne]

This thread is depressing, but predictably so.

 

The "work hard" prescription and "work harder" remedy are not only shaming, they are not helpful.

 

No duh. Everyone with an low average or higher IQ knows that success and financial stability takes work.

 

The make something from nothing opportunity is like a unicorn. In the US it rarely "works."

 

I personally managed to transcend incredible life and financial challenges because:

 

1.  I already had 2 undergraduate degrees when the challenges began.
2.  I had access - intermittent, but access, to good mental health support to get over and past many mental barriers.
3.  I have at least average intelligence.
4.  I have good and healthy family support AND that family was not facing the same or similar challenges.
5.  I took on student loan debt.
6.  I was willing to do anything - from manage fireworks stands to clean buildings.
7.  I worked 6 and 7 days a week. I am still doing that in a combination of 4 jobs. This is a trade off and the only reason my family didn't collapse entirely is because I was lucky I was able to get a job where my kids go to school.
8.  I used social services.
9.  I had generous friends and acquaintances.
10.  I came from a middle class - maybe low middle - background.

 

The reality is still that I have at almost 50 JUST started to save for retirement. I do not own a home. I do not own a decent car. My credit rating sucks (but is getting better). My teeth have suffered tremendously - I may have lost the ability to get implants. My family suffered; I was NEVER home. I have no doubt my health was compromised in other ways, including obesity.

 

Like Sadie, saving a pittance for "later" in terms of what most people would consider markers for financial stability would not work. Dave Ramsey is a *****fail***** for low income families. (I've come to see a lot of his stuff as a fail in general, but that is a different topic.)

 

[Ausmumof3]

I don't think of grinding down the poor as not giving to charity. Most people don't want charity they just want a fair opportunity. I think of it more as various government policies that provide financial benefits to the rich that aren't available to the poor. This happens. Governments bail out banks and big businesses that are failing due to poor decision making. This money comes from collective tax $. And yet the CEOs of the large banks still get large payouts and bonuses.

 

Regulation for safety etc is definitely a good thing but it makes it much harder to start from nothing. If you want to do a food business you need access to a commercial kitchen.

 

And there comes a point where a business becomes so large it really is impossible for someone else to compete. The major supermarkets over here have a huge market share. They mistreat the farmers that supply them but the farmers have no other way of selling their products. Some lucky ones close enough to urban areas can start shed door operations and cottage industry type stuff and make a bit more. When I was a kid there was a variety of different hardwares, lots of different fruit and veg shops, butchers etc. now it's all consolidated into a few major successful brands. There needs to be some kind of periodic reset that gives people a fair go again. I guess in history that happens - when people get hungry enough to start a revolution. Hopefully we can makes things fairer without that.

[creekland]

Sorry to burst your bubble but some of people in low wage jobs have been to community college and then some.

...

I wouldn't have done those things if I didn't think that it was worth the effort, would I? I believe in the transformative power of education. I've seen it work time in and time out. But I see all the variances and there's no simple solution here. The barriers that some face to college or out of low wages are nearly or in fact insurmountable. That's why we need to concern ourselves with helping people IN poverty and not just focus on thinking everyone can or will get out of poverty.

 

I'm guessing you think I work in a mythical average high school where all students succeed?  Or perhaps come from a mythical family where all members succeed?  (Success being defined as having a job you like that also supports yourself and your family decently - not millionaire status.)

 

One can start a whole 'nother thread about those who don't succeed (and why).  I can pick up any local newspaper and see students from my past who made the police blotter (many times for insufficient checks as much as DUI or petty crimes).

 

My preference is to be the cheerleader to let people know there ARE options to try that HAVE worked for people rather than merely sympathizing and not offering suggestions.

 

Going back to my medical analogy, I'm rather glad there were people in my life that I related my issues to who then suggested I go to (specific place) and have someone see what they could do rather than just sympathizing and saying nothing.  We can ALL relate stories of people who have had similar (health) issues who weren't successful overcoming them.  Interestingly enough, the doctors I've seen have only mentioned success stories... even though I know they've also seen those who weren't successful (and if pressed, they'll give odds).  I wonder why?

 

I've no idea if I'll end up as a success story or not, but I do have this deep down belief that I have better odds having tried something than not.  That belief (and some local mental support) has helped me both get on the path and stay on it.

 

There really isn't much different with financial deals as I see it.  One isn't likely to succeed doing nothing.  One isn't guaranteed success doing something, but the odds are better.  Mental support (complete with success stories) is a biggie to lean on - esp during the tough times.  Failure stories?  I've yet to be inspired by any personally.  I already know they are out there.  I see them IRL - as does everyone else.  Dwelling on them too much can (and does) make giving up tempting.

[Reefgazer]

Funny, I was just talking to DS this morning about getting a job.  He is only 10, but wants a job so that he can make "lots of money to buy video games" (yeah, first world problem, and this is the priorities of a 10 year old).  Anyway, I told him no one makes "lots of money" right off and that he would have to work for many years at boring jobs to make decent money.  Then we talked about making good decisions and setting yourself up for opportunity and keeping an eye out for what is out there and volunteering in order to make contacts and blah, blah, blah.  Then the convo veered off into specific jobs for him, etc...

 

Luck.  I realized a few hours after I had been talking to him that I was explaining how to set yourself up for luck.  So luck is also a result of our decisions and choices that we make years prior.  Maybe job and career programs at schools need to teach soft skills such as this, as well as hard skills.  I think much luck is made, not just random chance, and that some might be better at recognizing it, too.

 

This post will get me flamed for sure, but that won't change my opinion about making and recognizing your own luck.

I'm guessing you think I work in a mythical average high school where all students succeed?  Or perhaps come from a mythical family where all members succeed?  (Success being defined as having a job you like that also supports yourself and your family decently - not millionaire status.)

 

One can start a whole 'nother thread about those who don't succeed (and why).  I can pick up any local newspaper and see students from my past who made the police blotter (many times for insufficient checks as much as DUI or petty crimes).

 

My preference is to be the cheerleader to let people know there ARE options to try that HAVE worked for people rather than merely sympathizing and not offering suggestions.

 

Going back to my medical analogy, I'm rather glad there were people in my life that I related my issues to who then suggested I go to (specific place) and have someone see what they could do rather than just sympathizing and saying nothing.  We can ALL relate stories of people who have had similar (health) issues who weren't successful overcoming them.  Interestingly enough, the doctors I've seen have only mentioned success stories... even though I know they've also seen those who weren't successful (and if pressed, they'll give odds).  I wonder why?

 

I've no idea if I'll end up as a success story or not, but I do have this deep down belief that I have better odds having tried something than not.  That belief (and some local mental support) has helped me both get on the path and stay on it.

 

There really isn't much different with financial deals as I see it.  One isn't likely to succeed doing nothing.  One isn't guaranteed success doing something, but the odds are better.  Mental support (complete with success stories) is a biggie to lean on - esp during the tough times.  Failure stories?  I've yet to be inspired by any personally.  I already know they are out there.  I see them IRL - as does everyone else.  Dwelling on them too much can (and does) make giving up tempting.

 

[SKL]

One isn't guaranteed success doing something, but the odds are better.  Mental support (complete with success stories) is a biggie to lean on - esp during the tough times.  Failure stories?  I've yet to be inspired by any personally.  I already know they are out there.  I see them IRL - as does everyone else.  Dwelling on them too much can (and does) make giving up tempting.

 

Right, and IMO this is a big reason young people set themselves up to fail before they even start out, by deciding not to bother doing well in school or to stay away from illegal drugs.  Which of course tends to "prove" the cynics' point.  Thing is, poor youths have seen enough "realism" all their lives.  Balancing that out with some inspirational true stories can only help.  (On the other hand, it might be a good idea to expose kids from financially comfortable homes to some scary true stories that they might not encounter in real life.)

[creekland]

Right, and IMO this is a big reason young people set themselves up to fail before they even start out, by deciding not to bother doing well in school or to stay away from illegal drugs.  Which of course tends to "prove" the cynics' point.  Thing is, poor youths have seen enough "realism" all their lives.  Balancing that out with some inspirational true stories can only help.  (On the other hand, it might be a good idea to expose kids from financially comfortable homes to some scary true stories that they might not encounter in real life.)

 

IME many of these young people don't really decide to give up.  They don't think they have a chance or any choice in the matter.  The biggest thing we have to try to teach them is that their choices now CAN matter and that they CAN make a choice.

 

If there were a way to take A Christmas Carol and show them their future with Choice A vs Choice B, I'd love it, but there isn't.  We have to try to get them to visualize it.  Some can and some can't.  Many don't have family support, so that makes it even tougher.  Poor peer pressure is also a major issue.

 

And then they have to realize it won't happen in half an hour or a couple of hours (the time it takes to gain success on TV or in movies).

 

Some do get it and get out.  That's what keeps us going.  I love the success stories.  Not everyone succeeds.  For many it is too much.

 

But just saying "Joey did it, so you can too" is almost worthless.  They need to be guided far more in the process (usually) as they just don't know where the road goes.  They also need support from those who care.   They may (and do) take missteps now and then, but sticking to the path is the way to reach the goal.  That path may include more academics, it may include personality coaching, it may include finding resources, etc.  It often includes all of the above - and knowing Joey did it, so they can too.

[Murphy101]

Right, and IMO this is a big reason young people set themselves up to fail before they even start out, by deciding not to bother doing well in school or to stay away from illegal drugs. Which of course tends to "prove" the cynics' point. Thing is, poor youths have seen enough "realism" all their lives. Balancing that out with some inspirational true stories can only help. (On the other hand, it might be a good idea to expose kids from financially comfortable homes to some scary true stories that they might not encounter in real life.)

Maybe. I didn't view it that way. Hearing inspirational stories was like listening to Disney. Sure it was all feel good and lofty to think about, but we all knew it was BS fantasy. And in many ways the kids who bought into it were more likely to do drugs when it didn't work out that way. Many of them had tried really hard to buy into the dream and didn't work out and they just couldn't understand why doing everything "right" didn't matter. And if it didn't matter, might as well screw it all.

 

I'm a cynical person. Most kids who grow up poor are.

 

Your inspirational story?

 

It was just one more thing that showed how much I didn't have a chance. Because I wasn't stupid. I saw the key differences between That Sucessful Guy and me.

 

The problem with inspirational story lectures is they don't meet the person where they are. Someone struggling to get through that day is not in a frame of mind to envision life 5+ years away with a college degree and a Lexus in the burbs.

 

I'm not against inspiration. But yeah, it's not all it's cracked up to be either.

[TexasProud]

Reported

[Scarlett]

So weird.....I remember this thread like it was yesterday.....and yet I apparently did not post in it.  

How did I resist posting in a thread about income disparity?  LOL

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Scarlett said:

So weird.....I remember this thread like it was yesterday.....and yet I apparently did not post in it.  

How did I resist posting in a thread about income disparity?  LOL

I remember this thread as well. I don’t think it’s the worst thread to revisit, actually…

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

I guess maybe we’d have to have a spin off but I’d love to revisit this topic now(I also remember this thread clearly lol) with all that’s changed in the world in the last 6 years.

Also it makes me nostalgic for some long gone posters.