Chris in VA Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I have no dog in this fight, I'm just curious after reading the safety thread. Our church recently put an item on the table for discussion--someone wanted to pass a "policy" (for lack of a better word--"rule" maybe) that no guns are allowed to be carried in the church or on church grounds (except during the annual fair, when we do a target-shooting activity called a Turkey Shoot). What do you think of that policy? I really only want folks that would carry a gun themselves or think it's ok to carry concealed--not "always anti-gun" folks, pls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCoffeeChick Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I think if someone has gone through all the conceal weapons permit process, they should be able to carry to church if they so desire .... It wouldn't affect me, as i don't carry, but I do know more and a few people who would leave a church over it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Not anti-gun, grew up with guns, and I have no problem with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snickelfritz Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Not anti-gun, grew up with guns, and I have no problem with it. And I can add that I signed up for a concealed carry class. It didn't have enough sign up to make a class and we never looked for another. And I still don't have a problem with the policy. Oklahoma has liberal ( or conservative :)) gun laws and it's common to see signs that firearms are not permitted in a certain building or on school property. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudoMom Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I think concealed carry is fine. How would this policy be enforced? Pat downs as people walk in? If it's concealed, it's concealed and no one (except the pastor and/or security team) needs to know who is carrying. What is the purpose of the ban? Really, as sad as it is to say, I think churches do need security these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer in MI Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 We have a number of people who carry in our church. I actually appreciate the fact that they have their weapon on them. But, our church is in a downtown area, so that may skew my view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pqr Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Bad idea, it is the same as putting a sign on your lawn saying "There are no guns in this house." There are bad, evil people out there and advertizing your inability to defend yourself is not the best path. If someone has a CCP then carry, I would want them carrying in my church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LND1218 Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I have a problem with it for a lot of reasons. The main one being that some folks have to carry a weapon at certain times and church may have fallen into that category on occasion. Gonna skip the details but that comes from personal experience where said person would then have had to not attend church. My dh would probably leave the church over it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PiCO Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I have no dog in this fight, I'm just curious after reading the safety thread. Our church recently put an item on the table for discussion--someone wanted to pass a "policy" (for lack of a better word--"rule" maybe) that no guns are allowed to be carried in the church or on church grounds (except during the annual fair, when we do a target-shooting activity called a Turkey Shoot). What do you think of that policy? I really only want folks that would carry a gun themselves or think it's ok to carry concealed--not "always anti-gun" folks, pls. I think that would make the church an easy target for people who want to shoot a bunch of sitting ducks, so to speak. Unless there will be armed security guards available. Reminds me of this incident 5 years ago in Colorado Springs. (I am planning to apply for a concealed carry permit this summer.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
besroma Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I think if someone has gone through all the conceal weapons permit process, they should be able to carry to church if they so desire .... It wouldn't affect me, as i don't carry, but I do know more and a few people who would leave a church over it. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommy5 Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I don't understand the purpose of this rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lea1 Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I also think it is a bad idea and the church will be less safe, for many of the reasons already stated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fhjmom Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I have taken a concealed carry course but I do not carry now. I understand bans on weapons in places like schools and hospitals and such, but it bothers me when other entities that are not protected as "gun free zones" under the law want to restrict the legal right of those who have lawfully obtained a concealed carry permit. Those who are carrying illegally or with ill- intent are not going to pay attention to the sign anyway so it really only infringes on those who are following the law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
klmama Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Interesting. After the church shootings a couple of years back, my church went the opposite way and sought out people in the congregation who had law enforcement and military backgrounds (hence, lots of training) to provide "security" in the case of a similar attack. As a result of that, I'm quite sure there are several people in my congregation who have concealed carry permits and carry at church. I don't have a problem with that. As for if the church should prohibit guns, I would be curious to know why the people suggesting it feel it's necessary. Are they anti-gun? Are they concerned someone will leave their guns accessible to minors? Has someone in the community used a gun to stop a crime and accidentally harmed a bystander? Has some unstable or careless person in the congregation recently gotten a concealed carry permit? Regardless, it sounds to me like fear dictating a policy that infringes on personal rights. They can pass any policy they want, but it won't stop someone with bad intent from carrying a gun into the church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudboots Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I agree with what others have said. What's the purpose of this regulation, and how would they enforce it? If your church has armed security guards, it would make more sense. DH's family knew the parents of one of the girls who died in the CO Spgs church. A volunteer security guard shot the gunman. I think of that every time I wonder whether our greeter/security guards are armed. There was a pastor who was shot at the pulpit in recent years, too, plus a church member in our city who was shot in his church (but he was singled out as the victim for other reasons). I think churches need to have security plans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butter Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Guns scare me. Seriously freak me out. However, I'd have no problem at all with someone at church having a gun. If they are properly licensed, it's fine with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I think concealed carry is fine. How would this policy be enforced? Pat downs as people walk in? If it's concealed, it's concealed and no one (except the pastor and/or security team) needs to know who is carrying. What is the purpose of the ban? Really, as sad as it is to say, I think churches do need security these days. :iagree: I don't even think the pastor or security people need to know. If I'm carrying (legally) concealed weapon, no one knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Marple Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I would wonder why the church would want to implement this policy. Are the members "anti CC"? Have they had problems with overly zealous gun totin' folks? Is the church in a high crime area or a low crime area (meaning that it might not be necessary to be "protected")? I have no problem with CC (I don't have it, but I know many who do). But I also think that if the church wants to implement a No CC policy they certainly have a right to do so. Maybe they want to be sure that they aren't considered "gauche" ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Eh, I think that if a person has a concealed permit they should be allowed to carry there. I see zero safety issues with them having a gun there, and given the wacky church shootings you hear about it might actually be helpful one day. Why do they want to ban them? I guess that is my question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GailV Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I think that would make the church an easy target for people who want to shoot a bunch of sitting ducks, so to speak. Unless there will be armed security guards available. Sitting ducks who possibly/probably collected a large amount of cash into a handy dandy offering. I've had relatives accosted by a gunman at church in a mid-size, tranquil town. Very scary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I understand bans on weapons in places like schools and hospitals and such, but it bothers me when other entities that are not protected as "gun free zones" under the law want to restrict the legal right of those who have lawfully obtained a concealed carry permit. Those who are carrying illegally or with ill- intent are not going to pay attention to the sign anyway so it really only infringes on those who are following the law. :iagree: It will only deter the law abiding citizen, not the criminal. Are there professions with law enforcement that require them to be armed at all times? I don't know, it seems like I heard that once, but you know how that is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudoMom Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 :iagree: I don't even think the pastor or security people need to know. If I'm carrying (legally) concealed weapon, no one knows. That's true, that I'm only thinking that it would be nice (maybe a courtesy) for the pastor and/or security team to know who carries in case something happened and protection was needed. I don't think anyone needs to know, and I'm fine with no one knowing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I guess I'm glad I don't go to church. Sounds like a scary place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer in MI Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I guess I'm glad I don't go to church. Sounds like a scary place. Sometimes it is. Unfortunately, in the world in which we live, a church needs to be realistic. There are bad people in the world. Our church is a downtown parish. We get a LOT of interesting visitors every week. Some are mentally ill. Some are homeless. Some are dangerous. We treat them all the same when they walk through the door - as if they are Jesus himself. But, we have to be careful. And, I certainly feel safer knowing that a number of our ushers carry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer3141 Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 DH has a conceal permit and we have several guns in the home. Church is not a place we would not be taking a gun, if we believed. Actually, DH doesn't bring it most places. Jesus didn't pack it. Why the heck would humans? :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zookeeper Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Bad idea, it is the same as putting a sign on your lawn saying "There are no guns in this house." There are bad, evil people out there and advertizing your inability to defend yourself is not the best path. If someone has a CCP then carry, I would want them carrying in my church. :iagree: Personally, I think if you've gone to the trouble and expense to get a CCL, you should be able to carry anywhere. Crime can happen at any time, any place and how is it ok to tell someone they can defend themselves and their loved ones only in certain places? Do you think the bad guys care about where they're supposed to carry a gun and where they're not? I don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I have taken a concealed carry course but I do not carry now. I understand bans on weapons in places like schools and hospitals and such, but it bothers me when other entities that are not protected as "gun free zones" under the law want to restrict the legal right of those who have lawfully obtained a concealed carry permit. Those who are carrying illegally or with ill- intent are not going to pay attention to the sign anyway so it really only infringes on those who are following the law. :iagree: It would be a misguided policy at best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 DH has a conceal permit and we have several guns in the home. Church is not a place we would not be taking a gun, if we believed. Actually, DH doesn't bring it most places. Jesus didn't pack it. Why the heck would humans? :D naw, Jesus grabbed a cattle whip! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 (edited) I think this is a matter for each church/synagogue/temple/etc to decide. There are reasons both directions and it may depend upon time, circumstances, regions, belief, etc. I was on the grapevine list for phone calls when the Nickel Mines hostage situation was happening and when the shootings happened. The Amish still won't do it differently :) On the other hand, you have other cultures where everyone is welcome to carry their handgun, rifle, clamore, dagger, etc to church. Edited March 31, 2012 by mommaduck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellers Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Bad idea, it is the same as putting a sign on your lawn saying "There are no guns in this house." There are bad, evil people out there and advertizing your inability to defend yourself is not the best path. If someone has a CCP then carry, I would want them carrying in my church. :iagree::iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anneofalamo Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 funny funny, freedom of speech, religion and right to bear arms, in America #1 and #2 but you can't mix them? sorry this just made me giggle. back to the post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecclecticmum Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I'm not in the situation where I would carry, but if I lived in certain areas, I probably would, the laws out here don't permit it. 1. How would the policy be enforced? 2. As OP said, a known rule makes the church a sitting duck, which is quite scary, people could target that particular church knowing of their rules 3. I think, should the rule go ahead, they should have 1 or 2 people who are allowed to carry (responsible citizens, police officers, respected people etc) as this allows some sort of security 4. If not, then something of a security team should be posted. These people could be outside the church and check people, BUT this will make it seem like a personal violation Honestly I reckon the best policy would be number 3. This allows the church some sort of safety net, means you won't have to check the individuals coming in the door (thus no invasion of privacy) church can make their stance known, but still be protected for certain events. I also think that people who feel they need to have some sort of weapon on them (mace, knife, gun whatever) should be able to see the head of the church on a case by case basis, and possibly permitted to be allowed to carry such items (for one example a alone mother with children possibly carries some protection round all the time, and this should be taken into consideration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 (edited) I don't understand the point of it. I realize there have been a few rare cases of shootings in church, but those were crazy people who were not going to abide by a rule like this anyway. And how would they go about enforcing it? Frisk parishioners upon entering church? And what will be done to those who break the rules? Excommunication? I just think it's creating unnecessary tension without solving any actual problems. ETA - also, what do you do about people who do carry and would have to do something about the gun that is on them? Would they have to leave their gun in their car or somewhere? Doesn't that open up a whole other can of worms? Isn't the gun safest in the possession of the responsible gun owner? Edited March 31, 2012 by SKL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krista in LA Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Bad idea, it is the same as putting a sign on your lawn saying "There are no guns in this house." There are bad, evil people out there and advertizing your inability to defend yourself is not the best path. If someone has a CCP then carry, I would want them carrying in my church. :iagree: Unfortunately, it's illegal in Louisiana. I have heard that church employees may carry with permission, and that one church near us pays parishioners who have carry permits $1/year so they can carry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Sitting ducks who possibly/probably collected a large amount of cash into a handy dandy offering. I've had relatives accosted by a gunman at church in a mid-size, tranquil town. Very scary. But if someone comes in and tries to steal the offering, do you really think someone is going to pull out a gun and shoot them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TravelingChris Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 The church shootings were never about stealing the offerings. So the previous comment about gun battles about the offering never happened and are very unlikely to happen in the future. All the church shootings were done with people who were either anti a specific church or anti church in general. I think one or two were specifically targeting a preacher or another official. I think the policy is a bad idea. I don't see any way to enforce it and it just makes your congregation more likely to be targeted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brightside Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 :iagree: It will only deter the law abiding citizen, not the criminal. :iagree: It is sad when they pass these rules or even some gun laws because it is not like a criminal is going to say "Oops I can't go in there and shoot somebody because guns are not allowed in there". :001_huh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pqr Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 But if someone comes in and tries to steal the offering, do you really think someone is going to pull out a gun and shoot them? No.....but if some individual/s start to shoot people then yes. Do you really think that in such a case it would be better NOT to have someone in the church who might defend himself and others? Remember when seconds count the police are only minutes away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeacefulChaos Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 ]I think if someone has gone through all the conceal weapons permit process' date=' they should be able to carry to church if they so desire[/b'] .... It wouldn't affect me, as i don't carry, but I do know more and a few people who would leave a church over it. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudboots Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 (edited) I realize there have been a few rare cases of shootings in church, but those were crazy people who were not going to abide by a rule like this anyway. :iagree: In the three cases I mentioned, the gunmen did not attend the church [ETA - and they were there with strong anti-religious motives]. Unless the church was checking people at the door (a very bad idea, IMO!), the church policy wouldn't have prevented anything. Edited March 31, 2012 by mudboots Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 funny funny, freedom of speech, religion and right to bear arms, in America #1 and #2 but you can't mix them? sorry this just made me giggle. back to the post Well, that only applies to the government, so a church has the right to implement a ban on any or all of the above really. To the OP, I'd be curious as to why the church leaders want this rule. That would influence my opinion. I actually am anti-gun, but understand that the laws are not in line with my beliefs. Therefore, if the law allows people to carry concealed weapons, they should be allowed to carry them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Church seems an odd place to *WANT* to carry one's weapon IMHO, unless it was a case of somebody attending services on his/her way to or from work where a weapon is standard issue (police, military, other security, etc.) :001_huh: I don't have a problem either way (my $0.02 is that it's up to the pastor/elders/etc. to decide), it just seems strange IMHO for the issue to even come up in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Church seems an odd place to *WANT* to carry one's weapon IMHO, unless it was a case of somebody attending services on his/her way to or from work where a weapon is standard issue (police, military, other security, etc.) :001_huh: I don't have a problem either way (my $0.02 is that it's up to the pastor/elders/etc. to decide), it just seems strange IMHO for the issue to even come up in the first place. Some people carry their weapon as a matter of course. So it wouldn't be a matter of wanting to carry it specifically there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 Church seems an odd place to *WANT* to carry one's weapon IMHO, unless it was a case of somebody attending services on his/her way to or from work where a weapon is standard issue (police, military, other security, etc.) :001_huh: I don't have a problem either way (my $0.02 is that it's up to the pastor/elders/etc. to decide), it just seems strange IMHO for the issue to even come up in the first place. Whether you understand why someone would want or need to carry a concealed weapon at all times is a separate issue. The real question is why this legal practice should be excluded specifically at this church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mama Geek Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 It would be making a major political statement that I really disagree with. It would be a deal breaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 There is precedent for not allowing weapons in Christian places of worship. I suppose I would need to know why they proposed the rule to make a specific comment. But if a person is going to get his head blown off - an unlikely thing at any time - church might not be the worst place to have it happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 (edited) Interesting. After the church shootings a couple of years back, my church went the opposite way and sought out people in the congregation who had law enforcement and military backgrounds (hence, lots of training) to provide "security" in the case of a similar attack. As a result of that, I'm quite sure there are several people in my congregation who have concealed carry permits and carry at church. I don't have a problem with that. I wouldn't have a problem with this. My problem is that many states don't do much training for cc these days. There are a lot of people with ccp who don't really have enough experience with guns. That does make me uncomfortable, even though I'm perfectly comfortable with people having guns in general. It leads to too many situations like this: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/18/pastors-daughter-accident_n_1286605.html There have been too many people shot *exactly* this way because people who are not gun-savvy are carrying guns. If you don't know anything about semi-automatic weapons, then you don't know that it loads a round automatically when you put in the magazine. If you know about guns, then you would know that you should clear the chamber, which would have popped out the round. eta: And any establishment has the right to makes its own rules. Any rules they make do not infringe upon your *rights*. Edited March 31, 2012 by Mrs Mungo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonshineLearner Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I have no dog in this fight, I'm just curious after reading the safety thread. Our church recently put an item on the table for discussion--someone wanted to pass a "policy" (for lack of a better word--"rule" maybe) that no guns are allowed to be carried in the church or on church grounds (except during the annual fair, when we do a target-shooting activity called a Turkey Shoot). What do you think of that policy? I really only want folks that would carry a gun themselves or think it's ok to carry concealed--not "always anti-gun" folks, pls. I think that your church would be a good spot for someone who wants to come shoot the congregation. The person I'm thinking of packs almost 100% of the time, he's a person who preaches at many churches. He wouldn't even think of asking if it was ok. And, he's a good shot, so people at your church might be glad that the shooter would get killed, and your children may be saved... that day. (Not meant in a mean/snarky way) I really have an issue with guns around children or "mad men" otherwise I'm fine with them. Accidents happen, which is why it's hard to see them around kids.... but guns in good hands are... good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SonshineLearner Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 :iagree: I don't even think the pastor or security people need to know. If I'm carrying (legally) concealed weapon, no one knows. And if you're carrying a concealed weapon, (not legally), no one knows either.... Either way, as long as it stays concealed... no problem. When someone with bad intent has a gun... legal or not... that's where there's a problem :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeteranMom Posted March 31, 2012 Share Posted March 31, 2012 I live just a few miles from New Life Church. They had armed people in their church to protect their members. If they hadn't, many more lives would have been lost. I would not want to attend a church that banned guns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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