JumpyTheFrog Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 What is with women calling themselves "moms" if they have pets but no kids? Do men do this? Someone I know listed herself as a "stay-at-home mom" when she doesn't have any kids. They do have many rodents, however. I know she takes very good care of them, but I find it hard to believe that their pets are even as much work as training and caring for a dog...no comparison with a baby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virg Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Yes I know some people who are like this. By people, I mean women. They talk about how hard it is when their animal is sick and they know just how I feel! I am sure it sucks to have a dog throwing up, I am just not sure how it compares to my DS in the hospital on oxygen for a week. :confused: Just smile and nod :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I have a friend who calls herself a dog-mom and has called her dogs her furbabies. But, they have tried to have kids for many years without success. I am lucky that I have kids. She is sad that she doesn't. Does it really matter how she thinks of herself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chepyl Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 My SIL and a "friend" got into this on Facebook. "Friend" de-friended he r over it. She had taken the dog thing too far comparing herself to a mom, and then told SIL that she was what was wrong with the world because she has so many kids. It was ugly..... I treated my dog like a baby until we had a baby. I wanted a child so much, the dog filled the void until we were ready. I know many people who can't have children who treat their animals like babies. I don't think that having a dog is anywhere near the work or commitment having a child is, but if someone has no kids, they either don't get it or they are filling a void. Either way, I just ignore it and don't let it bother me; orbit really gets annoying, I can block their posts or leave the room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 What if I homeschool my pets? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 What if I homeschool my pets? Are they of mandatory schooling age? Are you using real curriculum or some tree-huggy BS curriculum? ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsBasil Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 What if I homeschool my pets? Only if it's a dog or something. Maybe a monkey. If you have a hamster, you're just being a good pet parent. Oh, and NO unschooling the animals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Oh, and NO unschooling the animals. :iagree: I don't want to hear any stories about how he'll learn to potty outside whenever he starts showing an interest in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Only if it's a dog or something. Maybe a monkey. If you have a hamster, you're just being a good pet parent. If you have Killer Circus Monkeys, homeschooling is the only responsible choice for your family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 :grouphug: I've known women who give more care and attention to their dogs than their human children. the scariest was one in the dailymail, living on state aide, that spent quite a few pounds on a DOLL. re: diapers, clothes, CRIB, STROLLER, for an ADULT woman to play with a doll and take with her when she goes places. oh, she has an 11 yo daughter . . . . . and she wants a new doll to take care of. people see her with it, and because of the attention she's giving it, think it's real. mentally ill I'd think . . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorganClassicalPrep Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Well. I guess I'm a little nuts. My dog is... well, my baby. My daughter calls her her sister, family refer to me as her mommy, and I love her. A lot. I had her before I had my daughter. And she was my "support" during emotional and medical crises. When I was writhing in pain so bad I was throwing up, my dog laid on the bed with me, following me back and forth to the bathroom. When all I could do was cry for days, it was my dog's fur that I cried into. I don't know. I guess I understand how a pet can become very important to a person. We never know what the person may be missing, wanting, hurting from, etc..... (Although, if the pet takes precedence over your human child, there's a problem...) And people that have no children that compare having animals to having children really just don't understand, but did any of us understand what it meant to have children until we actually had them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mafi39 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Speaking from an infertility issue, my pets definitely filled a void when I so desperately wanted a baby. Going through thousands of dollars of treatments, heartaches and many tears, my pets were the one constant in our life until we adopted our children. I do not think an animal replaces a child whatsoever but the comfort they gave in my time of need is very much appreciated today! You never know what someone is going through! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathryn Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 This one gets to me with certain people. I can understand infertile people who've wanted and tried but can't have a baby. But, what I think of mostly with this is young couples we were friends with when our first was born who compared the care of their dogs with the care of our infant. Or a certain family member who shall remain nameless who chooses her dogs over having a relationship with her family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GailV Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I wonder if it is a dog thing because my cat runs the show. :D Eh, whatever. Nah, my neighbor is that way about her cats. She's also that way about MY cats sometimes -- she'll make a comment about my "son", for instance. I just stand there and stare at her, trying to figure out if she's slipped a cog and thinks I'm someone else (we have 2 daughters, no boys; plus neighbor is in her 80s and sometimes calls my husband by the name of the guy on the other side). Eventually it becomes apparent she's talking about my cat. I can't get used to it -- my mind refuses to accept this concept -- so this little scene plays out every few months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hana Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 You never know what someone is going through! :iagree: This. (Not that I wouldn't also vent--or laugh about the apparent silliness--about this; I'm just saying that there may be more than meets the eye, and it isn't up to me to judge.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Some friends of ours once tried to explain to my dh how taking care of a dog was as much work as taking care of a baby. Dh responded with, "I know. When we need to go to the store, at least we can put the baby in the kennel and not have to take her along." (That's a joke, of course.) They still didn't get it. Tara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
********* Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I treated my dog like a baby until we had a baby. I wanted a child so much, the dog filled the void until we were ready. I know many people who can't have children who treat their animals like babies. I don't think that having a dog is anywhere near the work or commitment having a child is, but if someone has no kids, they either don't get it or they are filling a void. This is my SIL. She is just now pregnant with her first at 38. She's struggled with infertility for quite some time, and her dog definitely filled that void. But sometimes I sure have rolled my eyes at her when she compares her DOG to my KID. I mean, no. Just no. LOL She'll know what I mean soon; she's due in the spring. :D :grouphug: I've known women who give more care and attention to their dogs than their human children. This is my stepmom. She always CLEARLY cared for and loved her pets more than me and my sisters. It's sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterflymommy Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I once met a lady who started to tell me, very sorrowfully, about how her son had died the previous year. She asked if I'd like to see a picture of him, and produced a picture of a cat. :confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoughCollie Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) My cats were like my children to me, before I had kids. The second I finally got pregnant, that was out the window. I suddenly viewed the cats as animals, loved, but way down on the totem pole. When we got our collie, Teddy, I never felt like his mom. He was my best friend; we were a team. Ted was a mature and responsible dog from the beginning, especially when I compare him to Aidan. I refer to myself as Aidan's mom when I'm talking to him. I was take aback the first time that came out of my mouth. Then I realized that, gee, I've got all these teenagers who know everything and can take care of themselves if only we would finance their independence. :) Aidan is so different from Ted that it took me months to get used to him. He needs a mother; heck, he needs a body guard. My house is pretty much toddler-proofed because of his problem-solving skills and stubborn dedication to getting into mischief. I spend a lot of time thinking about what Aidan could decide to do and subverting his schemes. Yesterday was his first birthday. He celebrated by leaping onto and over a stone wall on our porch, leaving himself dangling by his harness, unhurt. Luckily, he was wearing a very thick wool sweater under the harness, and we keep a very close eye on him out of necessity. DS1 rescued him, while I wondered why the dog didn't just walk down the steps like he's done at least 1,800 times; like a normal dog would do. Then, while I was unloading the dishwasher and had my back turned for a couple of seconds, he grabbed a butcher knife out of it and ran. Luckily, he carried it by the handle, and dropped it on my command after ignoring the boys. So yes, I am Aidan's mom, acting in loco parentis for a loco dog. Still, he will never have the importance of a child, especially one of my kids. Also, he is not my son. He is my dog. Edited January 17, 2012 by RoughCollie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impish Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I don't want to hear any stories about how he'll learn to potty outside whenever he starts showing an interest in it. Amen! If you have Killer Circus Monkeys, homeschooling is the only responsible choice for your family. If you have Killer Circus Monkeys, I'm passing judgement on your parenting skills of said monkeys. :tongue_smilie: I've known ppl like this...who call themselves Mommy and Daddy to animals, get offended if their animals aren't welcome EVERYWHERE, and Heaven forbid that you refer to your pets as 'pets'. They're furry people, man! We had to rehome Wolf's elderly cat when Tazzie was a toddler and I was pregnant w/Princess. She would lay in wait for him to go walking by, launch herself out from behind furniture, knock him over, and start trying to shred his face. And use his bed as a litter box. I was told that the cat was here first, our first loyalty should be to her, and asked if I would rehome our child if he became difficult. :001_huh: Animal was freaking dangerous to my toddler, Heaven only knows what she would have done to another baby in the house, but yeah, that's an equal comparison! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinder Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I'm a bit dumbfounded that people refer to their pets as their sons/daughters. I've heard people call them their babies, but I always thought that was just a term of endearment. You know, like how some people refer to their cars or what-have-you as their baby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PentecostalMom Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 What if I homeschool my pets? :lol::lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I have a friend who calls herself a dog-mom and has called her dogs her furbabies. But, they have tried to have kids for many years without success. I am lucky that I have kids. She is sad that she doesn't. Does it really matter how she thinks of herself? I know a couple of women like this. One carries health insurance for all of her pets and will spend a fortune in medicines and such (personally, I think she is why they are sick, but at least the Munchhausen is towards her animals and not children!...though I feel badly for her animals, so don't shoot me for saying that). Another buys diaper bags and other such for her dog. She has lost a baby and truly might never have another. She has other issues where this pup is a good thing for her. If she wants to consider herself a mom, then it's neither here nor there for me. No, it's not the same as what I deal with, but it's where she is at and I also know that she would probably pass out from anxiety if she were in my position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbkaren Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I know some folks like this, and I keep it tolerable by repeating in my head, "at least they don't have REAL children." lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jen500 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 What is with women calling themselves "moms" if they have pets but no kids? Do men do this? Someone I know listed herself as a "stay-at-home mom" when she doesn't have any kids. They do have many rodents, however. I know she takes very good care of them, but I find it hard to believe that their pets are even as much work as training and caring for a dog...no comparison with a baby. I don't care if people call their pets their 'kids'. I wish more people took such good care of their pets. And some pets take more care and effort than others. My kids are that way too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 mentally ill I'd think . . . . I agree and think it rather unhealthy to encourage or accept delusional behavior. We had cats before we had kids. 3 in a one bedroom apartment. We have pets now too. Yes, we love them and they are part of the family. No I am not their momma and they are not my kids. Tho many days I sure would like to have my children as well trained as my pets. Dern human free will keeps screwing up my human training program. I do joke that cats are great starter kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitten18 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 :iagree: I don't want to hear any stories about how he'll learn to potty outside whenever he starts showing an interest in it. :lol::lol::lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acurtis75 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Are they of mandatory schooling age? Are you using real curriculum or some tree-huggy BS curriculum? ;) :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starr Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 What if I homeschool my pets? Don't you? :D I have a cat that is more trouble than my dc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 What is with women calling themselves "moms" if they have pets but no kids? Do men do this? Someone I know listed herself as a "stay-at-home mom" when she doesn't have any kids. They do have many rodents, however. I know she takes very good care of them, but I find it hard to believe that their pets are even as much work as training and caring for a dog...no comparison with a baby. I guess I don't understand why it makes a difference what she calls herself. If she actually compares herself to "real" moms other than by calling herself a "mom" and it bothers you, or if there's something else going on (like that sing-songy voice some people use with their precious pets :tongue_smilie:), well, don't spend time with her. Otherwise it seems to be your issue, not hers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LND1218 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I know a couple of women like this. One carries health insurance for all of her pets and will spend a fortune in medicines and such (personally, I think she is why they are sick, but at least the Munchhausen is towards her animals and not children!...though I feel badly for her animals, so don't shoot me for saying that). My MIL was like this with her cat. They changed vets 3 times because they each kept saying the cat was fine. MIL was determined something was wrong with her. Sigh! Poor cat. I have a friend whose twins died shortly after birth, and she was told by a family member that they understood what she was going through because they lost their cat a few month before. :glare: :confused::001_huh: Not the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heather in Neverland Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I have a friend whose twins died shortly after birth, and she was told by a family member that they understood what she was going through because they lost their cat a few month before. :glare: :confused::001_huh: Not the same thing. oh good heavens. That is terrible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) I have a friend who calls herself a dog-mom and has called her dogs her furbabies. But, they have tried to have kids for many years without success. I am lucky that I have kids. She is sad that she doesn't. Does it really matter how she thinks of herself? So true. And even folks with kids often refer to their animals as their babies. My mother has a purse dog she loves. :iagree: Doesn't bother me one bit. Edited January 17, 2012 by LibraryLover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I have a friend whose twins died shortly after birth, and she was told by a family member that they understood what she was going through because they lost their cat a few month before. :glare: :confused::001_huh: Not the same thing. THIS would bother me...but I would clamp my mouth shut if someone said that to me. I probably would not speak to that person for awhile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I treated my dog like a baby until we had a baby. I wanted a child so much, the dog filled the void until we were ready. I know many people who can't have children who treat their animals like babies. I don't think that having a dog is anywhere near the work or commitment having a child is, but if someone has no kids, they either don't get it or they are filling a void. Either way, I just ignore it and don't let it bother me; orbit really gets annoying, I can block their posts or leave the room. This. Of course I know it's not the same, but it doesn't bother me. There's no reason for it to bother me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) double Edited January 17, 2012 by LibraryLover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 THIS would bother me...but I would clamp my mouth shut if someone said that to me. I probably would not speak to that person for awhile. Death makes some good people say things that are meant well, but sound (and are) really wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 We refer to our pets as our babies and the kids refer to themselves as their particular pet's "Mom" or "Dad". I guess I'm getting used to being called "Grandma" early! But it's just a family joke of sorts. We don't really think of them as people. Though when I was having to turn Libby over every two hours when she was first home from the hospital, changing her doggie diapers etc. I felt like I had a baby again. . . But again, it was a passing reference that wasn't meant to be a real comparison. I think for many people it is like this. But occasionally I do meet people who have lost perspective, in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teachin'Mine Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 We unschool our cats. They are soooo incredibly smart though and often pick up things on their own - they also drop them on their own - sometimes into the water dish. Must be a science experiment on buoyancy or displacement. They also love good books and will hang out for a long time over one - probably absorbing the information by osmosis. One of them will dog-ear, or is that cat-ear, the page so she knows where to return. They will become even better homeschoolers when the two-legged one goes to college. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeacherZee Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I am friends with a married couple who, due to some serious medical issues with both of them, have decided not to have children. Their illnesses are hereditary and they don't want to pass them on. They have also chosen not to adopt because they are concerned that they might not be able to take care of them or that they will die when the children are young. They call their dogs their furbabies...but they are aware that they are dogs. I have a friend whose twins died shortly after birth, and she was told by a family member that they understood what she was going through because they lost their cat a few month before. :glare: :confused::001_huh: Not the same thing. That is awful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anne in CA Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Honestly, I have heard people do this and I never take offense, they just don't know. The whole, I know how you feel after your twins have died was obnoxious. Even if you had your own twins that died, you really cannot know someone else's grief. My sister's SIL was saying, "Remember before you had kids and you thought your dogs were really important? And after you had kids you were like, he's a DOG," to someone and I had to laugh. I was also at a birthday party where a young woman was complaining that she had been up all night with her puppy to a young couple with a baby. The husband told her, "When your puppy starts to contribute to society all your sacrifice will be worth it," with a straight face.:lol::lol::lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mirth Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I guess I don't understand why it makes a difference what she calls herself. If she actually compares herself to "real" moms other than by calling herself a "mom" Steph offers one reason ... I have a friend whose twins died shortly after birth, and she was told by a family member that they understood what she was going through because they lost their cat a few month before. :glare: :confused::001_huh: Not the same thing. That is awful. :iagree:This is one of those moments when you almost need to get over your shock and separate the parties immediately. Like moving a baby carriage off a railroad track. I come from a culture where this pet-baby paradigm is non-existent. Serious dark matter would've hit the fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarreymere Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I have a friend who calls herself a dog-mom and has called her dogs her furbabies. But, they have tried to have kids for many years without success. I am lucky that I have kids. She is sad that she doesn't. Does it really matter how she thinks of herself? My SIL has her dog and she is her dog's mom. They have tried to have children for over fifteen years. I don't think it is going to happen biologically. Her dog was her baby, well, the dogs she has had over the years were always her babies. They did adopt an older, handicapped child a couple years ago so they do have a child now. But she is still her dog's mom too. Makes me feel even more blessed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 We refer to our pets as our babies and the kids refer to themselves as their particular pet's "Mom" or "Dad". I guess I'm getting used to being called "Grandma" early! But it's just a family joke of sorts. SIL called her adult children's dogs her grandkids. She even used to "babysit" them, and would say they would be at Grandma's for the weekend. Now that all 3 of her kids really have kids, she still calls the dogs her grand-doggies or furry grandbabies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarreymere Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 We unschool our cats. They are soooo incredibly smart though and often pick up things on their own - they also drop them on their own - sometimes into the water dish. Must be a science experiment on buoyancy or displacement. They also love good books and will hang out for a long time over one - probably absorbing the information by osmosis. One of them will dog-ear' date=' or is that cat-ear, the page so she knows where to return. They will become even better homeschoolers when the two-legged one goes to college. :tongue_smilie:[/quote'] My cat is fascinated by moving water. She stares at drains and taps unattended drinks just to watch the ripples. Maybe she is really into fluid mechanics and is pondering her thesis? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AuntieM Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 SIL called her adult children's dogs her grandkids. She even used to "babysit" them, and would say they would be at Grandma's for the weekend. Now that all 3 of her kids really have kids, she still calls the dogs her grand-doggies or furry grandbabies. And this is cute, 'til the furry grands get preferential treatment over the human ones (with allergies & asthma:glare:). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 We unschool our cats. They are soooo incredibly smart though and often pick up things on their own - they also drop them on their own - sometimes into the water dish. Must be a science experiment on buoyancy or displacement. They also love good books and will hang out for a long time over one - probably absorbing the information by osmosis. One of them will dog-ear' date=' or is that cat-ear, the page so she knows where to return. :tongue_smilie:[/quote'] They sound really smart, so hopefully they'll get scholarships for college. Sounds like at least one of them has a future in the sciences. :D You must be so proud. How did they score on their CAT tests? :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer3141 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I am friends with a married couple who, due to some serious medical issues with both of them, have decided not to have children. Their illnesses are hereditary and they don't want to pass them on. They have also chosen not to adopt because they are concerned that they might not be able to take care of them or that they will die when the children are young. They call their dogs their furbabies...but they are aware that they are dogs. I have friends who went through years of fertility treatments. It didn't work and they have two Malteses instead. The woman is more realistic about the dogs but the man... Oy. He takes them everywhere in a giant purse because we "get to take our kids to restaurants." We stopped inviting them out because it became too embarrassing. Actually, everyone did. how many times can you stand in a fine dining restaurant lobby and listen to some nut rant to the restaurant manager about his dogs' personal rights to filet mignon? And their holiday letter this year was a half page on the antics of the dogs and their old cat. He is CONTANTLY comparing his life to that of a SAHM with kids. Last time I saw him, I told him that he could consider himself a real SAHM when he got a couple of human weight dogs. A Maltese? Throw that in an aquarium when you need to clean house! :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 My dogs are better than my kids. I am resting my feet on one of my dogs right now. She's so soft and furry and toasty, with the just the right amount of lift off the floor. I am super comfy sitting here. My kids never get under the computer desk and keep my feet warm. I've asked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer3141 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 My cat is fascinated by moving water. She stares at drains and taps unattended drinks just to watch the ripples. Maybe she is really into fluid mechanics and is pondering her thesis? It's fine that you're unschooling since your cat has a real interest that could lead to a real career but I would still recommend a more balanced approach. Has your cat read Moby Dick yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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