Old parent situation

[Lawyer&Mom]

If it’s not a safety hazard I would just let it be.  It’s their house, they can live how they want.  It’s stressful to have someone come over and clean your house without being asked.  It’s stressful to have someone offer to hire a cleaner for you.  Let them have agency while they still can. They can hire a cleaner themselves or move to a facility if they want. 

[PeterPan]

Just now, Lawyer&Mom said:

move to a facility if they want

Not necessarily.

[Carrie12345]

3 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

If this person is local, then she may be the logical POA. The person who becomes the POA can use their relationship to ensure safety. 

Not if our mom refuses to cooperate! The closest she comes is saying their finances are in order. What that means is anyone’s guess.

I thought my grandmother’s passing would give her perspective, but nope.

[PeterPan]

3 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

Not if our mom refuses to cooperate! The closest she comes is saying their finances are in order. What that means is anyone’s guess.

I thought my grandmother’s passing would give her perspective, but nope.

The person who is local to your mom might call your county office on aging and ask them for advice. 

[Carrie12345]

2 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

The person who is local to your mom might call your county office on aging and ask them for advice. 

Well, she’s in social services, so I have confidence she knows what resources are available. I don’t think there are any that force able-minded parents to face these topics with their kids!

[Scarlett]

I find with aging parents you just can’t win. Suggest they hire a cleaning? Offensive.

Go in and clean for them? Offensive. 
 

Yet some parents sit around complaining that their adult kids don’t just ‘know’ what they need and rush to do it. 

[WildflowerMom]

3 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I find with aging parents you just can’t win. Suggest they hire a cleaning? Offensive.

Go in and clean for them? Offensive. 
 

Yet some parents sit around complaining that their adult kids don’t just ‘know’ what they need and rush to do it. 

And then they complain because their kids won't come see them.     🤯    

[Innisfree]

37 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

some old dead person in the family touched something one freaking time and now we can never throw it out.  

 

16 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

It is just so overwhelming to be around it.   Like anxiety attacks, just wanting to cry, that sort of overwhelm.

I’m sorry this is so difficult. 

I can actually relate to your mother’s reluctance to get rid of family stuff. I don’t know if she’s technically a hoarder, but grief at losing people can snowball, especially as the numbers that you have lost start to add up. I’m working to stay on the right side of the line between collecting and hoarding myself, having watched my mother slide into full-scale hoarding. So much of your life can become unrecoverable. You can easily get to the point that you can’t stand to lose anything with memories attached, and then it can tip over the edge into holding onto everything, because loss is so painful. Loss of people, loss of memories, loss of control. And then people start nagging at you to get rid of stuff, or worse yet they decide to do an “intervention” and just purge stuff without your involvement, and the loss of control is complete, and panic sets in.

If your mother is somewhere on this progression, I would suggest that grief counseling might be more effective than addressing the hoarding directly. I wouldn’t even talk about the stuff. Try to dig up some empathy and address the grief. Even just letting her talk about people who have died, looking through photo albums, might give you an idea of whether this is an issue. Tell her lots of people find grief counselors helpful these days. Normalize it for her, if she’s likely to resist.

Also… anxiety could be something you and your mother share. It could be contributing to your opposite responses to the stuff.

If I’m completely off base, forgive the intrusion. I’m sorry you’re facing this problem, but it’s good you have a plan for handling it eventually. If you can find a way to not be bothered by it now, that would be great.

[Spryte]

I like the idea of “helping” someone who needs some extra income, but if that’s hard to do (because how would you find that person?), I would give them housekeeping as a gift. Make it about pampering, and call it a gift. If you need help finding a reputable cleaning service, I have found, over 30 years of having cleaning services, that real estate agents often know the best cleaners. So if you know of any good real estate agents in their area, that could be a lead.

My mom’s house was the same in her late 60s, and I now know she literally couldn’t see it, and didn’t have time or inclination for deep cleaning and decluttering. I would go see her a few times a year and spend all my time deep cleaning — now I wish I could have that time back and just *be* with her. She’s 83 now, and dementia took her away years ago. Giving her a cleaning service twice a month would have been brilliant. Even if they just cleaned around all her stuff.

@WildflowerMom I hear you! It has been something like 10-12 years since I did my mom’s house, and, no kidding, I still have occasional nightmares about it. I did it in two three-day intense weekends, working 12-15 hours a day. She was with me, and pretty functional. We finally called a junk service at the end, and that was the best money ever spent. Before that, it weighed on me to think of doing her house if she passed. Thankfully she decided to move, and had to do it early. Maybe you can talk to your parents about where they want things to go — and let them know that if they don’t specify where their treasures go, they might end up at goodwill.

[TechWife]

48 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

I'm going to hit 50 in a few years and I suspect there are a fair number of people here hitting 60 or higher. It seems like it's coloring the "oh 70 is not that old" conversation, lol. 

It’s not that we’re in some sort of denial, though. It’s that the older we are, the more likely we are to have seen our own parents and/or other relatives age well beyond what we used to think of as “old.” Once you see what 80 looks like, 70 is no longer a big deal and so 70 doesn’t seem like “old age” relative to 80 and we no longer think of it as “old,” or at least not old and addled/decrepid/infirm, etc..

Edited January 24 by TechWife

[gardenmom5]

53 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

Well, how else would I answer the question asked without my own eyes???

If you want to know what *your mother* sees, assume her vision isn't as good as yours.  I remember when I needed significantly less light to see things than I do now.  There's a reason older people have more difficulty with night driving too.  It's not just the glare.

 

There are huge selections of light bulbs and fixtures that put out more lumens and brighter light 'colors'  (e.g. warm white vs cool bright white light) than previously.  Just change some bulbs out and see if *she* notices an improvement in what she can see.   Since many can go on dimmers, you can have bright for cleaning, and dimmer for more ambient lighting.  I did that in my theater.  It's great.

Edited January 24 by gardenmom5

[SKL]

I've offered my mom to hire cleaners for their house many times.  I'm not pushy about it ... it's been many years, so every few years or so, I just remind them that I'm happy to pay cleaners if they ever change their mind.  🙂

As another person said, it's their business if they would rather have some dinginess, dust, and cobwebs than allow cleaners in.  If it starts to be a health issue, that would make me more insistent.

I have told my folks that I planned to come and help them clean, but it almost never happens.  I am just too busy with my own job, kids, and house to take a whole day off and clean theirs.  I did start taking a couple boxes away with me on each visit.  It's a start.  I also have a sister who "nervous cleans," so when she's at their house, dirt, watch out.  😛  I (fortunately or unfortunately) am a much more relaxed person, so I don't get on mad cleaning binges during family visits.  😛  Maybe someday I'll get over there and do some serious cleaning, but funny thing, I'm getting older too.  😛  Reality is, I worry that my folks are getting close to their end, and the way the cabinets / baseboards look just isn't that important at this point.

[WildflowerMom]

4 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

 

I’m sorry this is so difficult. 

I can actually relate to your mother’s reluctance to get rid of family stuff. I don’t know if she’s technically a hoarder, but grief at losing people can snowball, especially as the numbers that you have lost start to add up. I’m working to stay on the right side of the line between collecting and hoarding myself, having watched my mother slide into full-scale hoarding. So much of your life can become unrecoverable. You can easily get to the point that you can’t stand to lose anything with memories attached, and then it can tip over the edge into holding onto everything, because loss is so painful. Loss of people, loss of memories, loss of control. And then people start nagging at you to get rid of stuff, or worse yet they decide to do an “intervention” and just purge stuff without your involvement, and the loss of control is complete, and panic sets in.

If your mother is somewhere on this progression, I would suggest that grief counseling might be more effective than addressing the hoarding directly. I wouldn’t even talk about the stuff. Try to dig up some empathy and address the grief. Even just letting her talk about people who have died, looking through photo albums, might give you an idea of whether this is an issue. Tell her lots of people find grief counselors helpful these days. Normalize it for her, if she’s likely to resist.

Also… anxiety could be something you and your mother share. It could be contributing to your opposite responses to the stuff.

If I’m completely off base, forgive the intrusion. I’m sorry you’re facing this problem, but it’s good you have a plan for handling it eventually. If you can find a way to not be bothered by it now, that would be great.

Thank you for this reply and for your kindness and understanding!       
I don't think hers is grief.   I think she feels like "well, someone has to hold on to this family stuff, right?"    Her parents were not sentimental in the least.   Her siblings (5 kids in all) don't seem to be either.  Out of all us grandkids (there's a lot), TWO care about sentimental stuff and they are the 2 I'll call to come collect stuff when she's gone.      The issue for me that's probably the biggest issue is this:  (and I really am trying not to come across as a b8tch, I swear, y'all).  I have pretty bad anxiety and one of my triggers is messes.   Her house = MESS.  not filth, as much, but MESS.   She knows that it makes me very anxious to be in her home.  She tells me, "I wish you didn't have that".   "That" referring to severe anxiety over junk everywhere.   So she wants me there, pretty desperately (gets upset if I don't stay the night and instead comes for just a few hours, most of which are spent outside the house), YET she won't clean up.     She and my dad just pile crap on top of crap on top of crap, to the point where I can't put my very small purse on the kitchen counter when I walk in because there is literally no surface space for it.  Yet, she begs me to stay, constantly asks 'when can you come over???'    I didn't realize how much it was bothering me until now and frankly it's comforting (not for Carrie, lol) to see another person dealing with some similarities.   It's not like I'm not a good daughter. I am!  It's not like I don't care about their feelings, dignity, agency, or anything else.   It's that it all seems so one-sided.   'You come over here and do things for me and spend time with me' but ll make literally zero effort to make you feel comfortable or at ease.    

[Innisfree]

1 minute ago, WildflowerMom said:

I don't think hers is grief.

Got it.

As for visiting, you have to draw your own lines. I had to quit visiting my parents overnight because there was literally no space for me to sleep. Then I quit visiting for day trips because there were garden saws on the floor of the front hall, and my older dd was a toddler. I get it.

Hugs.

[gardenmom5]

9 minutes ago, SKL said:

  I also have a sister who "nervous cleans," so when she's at their house, dirt, watch out.  😛  I (fortunately or unfortunately) am a much more relaxed person, so I don't get on mad cleaning binges during family visits.   

when I was a teenager, I stressed cleaned.  mom didn't clean, so someone had to . . . I miss the cleaning binges, but I don't miss that stress.

[Pawz4me]

5 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

 

This has been building up for over two decades, so not all age related.

You say this has been building up for over two decades, so that would have been since she was around 50. What was she like before then? Was she ever much into housekeeping? I'm wondering if this isn't so much an older person slipping as it is simply becoming "more" of who she always was -- someone not overly concerned with housekeeping? Add in a lack of concern plus almost certainly some degree of diminishing eyesight and I can see how things could get pretty bad.

FWIW, we have an elder (a real elder--almost 90) who's been going in the other direction. She's so concerned about old person funk that she's gotten fairly obsessive about cleaning and bathing, and I'm beginning to wonder if it's getting into unhealthy territory. It's another case of becoming "more" with age.

 

[goldberry]

1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

I will tell you, as a parent with health issues that made cleaning difficult, it ticked me off to no end to listen to one particular child repeatedly tell me I should "hire" someone.  

Can you elaborate more on this?  I could see if this was a money issue, but if the parent has money, why did it make you so angry?  My dad eventually hired someone to come every two weeks and he was so much happier afterwards.  (My sister who lives close is disabled, and I live out of state.)  I'm super logical minded and have a hard time understanding why the suggestion made you angry.  

[Bambam]

I'm not that particular about keeping my house spotless. This is not one of those areas of pride for me, so if my kids at some point tell me that my house is dirty and I should hire someone, I'd be agreeable to that assuming I could afford it. But I do know some who would be seriously offended if anyone ever suggested their house was not pristine - even if it wasn't. It is a matter of pride to them. 

[gardenmom5]

7 minutes ago, goldberry said:

Can you elaborate more on this?  I could see if this was a money issue, but if the parent has money, why did it make you so angry?  My dad eventually hired someone to come every two weeks and he was so much happier afterwards.  (My sister who lives close is disabled, and I live out of state.)  I'm super logical minded and have a hard time understanding why the suggestion made you angry.  

That high income (with no dependents other than pets) adult child with generous disposable income (even in our HCOL area) was telling me how *I* should be spending my money.   While our finances now are fine, that has not always been the case. And I don't' have nearly as much disposable income as that kid.

I have fibro, and I went undiagnosed for years as my health deteriorated - finally doing a treatment that is helping - but this kid . . . Has flat out told me I just needed to change my attitude and I'd feel better. This kid didn't believe my illness was real, . . . we are currently not on speaking terms.

I cleaned my mom's house as a 'gift', - a lot.  If it's so important to that kid, they could have cleaned it themself, or paid someone else to do it.  1ds (good start of career income) actually offered to pay for someone for my Christmas gift.

[Carrie12345]

13 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

You say this has been building up for over two decades, so that would have been since she was around 50. What was she like before then? Was she ever much into housekeeping? I'm wondering if this isn't so much an older person slipping as it is simply becoming "more" of who she always was -- someone not overly concerned with housekeeping? Add in a lack of concern plus almost certainly some degree of diminishing eyesight and I can see how things could get pretty bad.

Yes, like I said, she’s never been fastidious. Which wasn’t a huge deal when she had 3 kids with weekly chores, and also did some cleaning herself.   For example, weekly dusting was absolutely mandatory, but mopping was random.
I know that for me (me, me, me,) I got a heck of a lot cleaner as the kids got older. She was 52 when she bought the house. I’m 46 (and don’t work like she has, but I still have 2 minors, pets, homeschool, school, a lot of volunteer work, etc.) and can’t imagine just NOT cleaning anymore any time soon. I put things off, for sure, but ??? I don’t know.  
It’s not the her I knew into her mid-40s or so, but it has been for sure since moving into that house.

Though now I am remembering very dirty blinds and her being annoyed if I got around to cleaning one set and needed more time for the others so you could see the stark difference…

[PeterPan]

39 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

can’t imagine just NOT cleaning anymore

I can, lol. Like seriously, I had that girl in to clean and started looking at stuff and went *wow you have old woman house*. 

People's bodies and realities are just at different places. I could totally see how by 50 she was in wind down mode. 

That must be a comfort to know she has someone close who can attend to her safety needs. Everything else is just bonus. 

[Scarlett]

49 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

That high income (with no dependents other than pets) adult child with generous disposable income (even in our HCOL area) was telling me how *I* should be spending my money.   While our finances now are fine, that has not always been the case. And I don't' have nearly as much disposable income as that kid.

I have fibro, and I went undiagnosed for years as my health deteriorated - finally doing a treatment that is helping - but this kid . . . Has flat out told me I just needed to change my attitude and I'd feel better. This kid didn't believe my illness was real, . . . we are currently not on speaking terms.

I cleaned my mom's house as a 'gift', - a lot.  If it's so important to that kid, they could have cleaned it themself, or paid someone else to do it.  1ds (good start of career income) actually offered to pay for someone for my Christmas gift.

I still don’t understand the anger. If you could not afford to hire a cleaner, you could just say so.  If you could afford it, there is no reason to be angry at your son because he has more money than you. 
 

 

[Terabith]

Note to self:  Do not invite anyone from the hive over to my house.  My counters are constantly full of clutter and I don't think I have cleaned my baseboards like ever.  ETA:  Or blinds, for sure.  I know I have never scrubbed down all my cabinets unless there was a very obvious spill.  I know I'm a terrible housekeeper, but I'm really cringing here.  

I mean, I already don't invite people over hardly ever, because I'm self conscious about my terrible housekeeping.  But yeah, priorities are laundry, dishes, cat items, cooking/ eating surfaces.  Anything else is a bonus.

Edited January 24 by Terabith

[Melissa in Australia]

7 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

I visited my mom and stepdad over the weekend. (70, in average 70yo health and 71 in very poor health.) My mom has never been the greatest housekeeper on the cleaning side, but she did have 3 kids with chores, so it was so-so/fine growing up. She is also not a hoarder, just an average American clutterer, or maybe even slightly less if you don’t count the garage.

The house is filthy.  
Dishes and laundry are cleaned. Food surfaces are sanitary. So maybe I need to just shut up and relax? I’m hoping for perspective.

I’m super concerned with the level of yuck everywhere else. You can tell what cabinets are used most by the black build up on the light wood. The least used ones have dust and cobwebs clinging to grease on the hinges. The baseboards are not dusty, they’re crusty and discolored. Decor is covered in webs. The doors have crusty dust on the cutouts (I’m forgetting the real word.) The blinds are gross. I’m not going to talk about floors. There’s more, but I’m trying to give the gist.

This has been building up for over two decades, so not all age related. I deep cleaned the kitchen about a decade ago. It just doesn’t get kept up.  
Also, my siblings each lived there for extended periods and didn’t help much.

I would gladly hire them occasional help for hard cleaning jobs, but my mom wouldn’t let us hire someone to do a basic clean before a big party a few years back.

So I have to let it go, right?  
It can’t possibly be good for a man in such fragile health, or for Mom as she continues to age. She certainly can’t get on her hands and knees or step ladders now to scrub.

We’re a pretty blunt family, but I don’t know if I can actually tell her, “Look, we have to clean your house.”

Try that anyway, or just shove it out of my mind?

Could your mum have cataracts? I personally know a few older women who's house got to such a state, then they had cataract surgery and were absolutely shocked at the state their house was in. They couldn't see it beforehand 

[SKL]

To be fair, she is cleaning.  The kitchen, bathrooms, and laundry are clean.

It sounds like she's also got some caring roles related to her husband, and did OP say she still has a job?  I don't think it's that strange that she doesn't feel full of energy to clean the cupboards and baseboards on top of the rest.  I mean, 70 is 70.  Until we're 70, who are we to say it's easy?

[SKL]

3 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

Could your mum have cataracts? I personally know a few older women who's house got to such a state, then they had cataract surgery and were absolutely shocked at the state their house was in. They couldn't see it beforehand 

This reminds me of an elderly friend who lived in a country where servants were common.  She got cataract surgery, and the servants were not happy with the results - she now saw everything that wasn't spotless and was on the servants' backs for a while.  😛

[prairiewindmomma]

I’d let this one go. Basic hygiene is there. 

[Scarlett]

About two years before our dad died, he had to stay in the hospital. My sister went by their house, while our stepmother was at the hospital, and she was completely blown away by how dirty the house was. She just jumped in and started cleaning.

I don’t think it was a coincidence that our dad died within two years of that incident. I think it is a big sign of decline especially if they have normally kept to clean house.

My mom has a clean house. She is 79 and my stepdad is 85. He helps her with the house. Up until this point he has always done his entire yard as well. 3/4 of an acre. He mows as well as weed eats. My mom wants him to hire it done starting this summer. I hope he will. They can afford it. If they could not afford it and if they wanted me to,   my husband and I would make sure to get it mowed, in some way or another.

I always jump and run and do anything my mother ask for me to do. But she has some weird thing about asking me to do specific things for her. It’s like I should just know what she wants done. And then the same time if I try to help with some thing that she does not want help with. she accuses me of trying to run her life.

A few post in this thread have backed up my theory that it is a no-win situation with elderly parents.

During the ice we had this week my stepdad, for some inexplicable reason had to take the trash out of the garage to the trashcan. And he fell. Thankfully, he did not break anything. And he is so sore. Two days later he can barely move. 
 

That same day, because he was so sore from falling, my mother went to check the mail. Because, according to her, she knew the gas bill would be in the mailbox, and it had to be paid. I exclaimed frustration at this decision and told her I would be happy to take out her trash, or to go check her mail for her. She laughed and said you can’t do anything for me you’ve been sick. I said I have not been too sick to check your mail or take out your trash.

Like I said, I can’t win.

[Jaybee]

2 hours ago, TechWife said:

It’s not that we’re in some sort of denial, though. It’s that the older we are, the more likely we are to have seen our own parents and/or other relatives age well beyond what we used to think of as “old.” Once you see what 80 looks like, 70 is no longer a big deal and so 70 doesn’t seem like “old age” relative to 80 and we no longer think of it as “old,” or at least not old and addled/decrepid/infirm, etc..

Right. I'm in my 60s, but my mom, who was 30 when I was born, is still alive. So no, I don't feel "old."

[Bootsie]

It sounds as if this is more about personal preference rather than about an elderly person who is unable to take care of themselves physically and who is unable cognitively to make sound decisions.  If she is capable of working three days a week, it sounds as if she is capable of making her own decisions.  It sounds as if this has been her cleaning-style at a younger age, and not something that is a recent change.  She may not make the decisions that you would make in her place, or that you would be most comfortable with her making, but they are her decisions to make.  

[regentrude]

7 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

Dishes and laundry are cleaned. Food surfaces are sanitary. 

 You can tell what cabinets are used most by the black build up on the light wood. The least used ones have dust and cobwebs clinging to grease on the hinges. The baseboards are not dusty, they’re crusty and discolored. Decor is covered in webs. The doors have crusty dust on the cutouts (I’m forgetting the real word.) The blinds are gross.

The bolded is what matters as it pertains to actual hygiene . They have clean dishes and clothes and have sanitary surfaces for food preparation.
Baseboards and blinds and cobwebs on unused hinges are cosmetic. 

Are any of the things you notice an actual health or fire hazard? If not, leave them be. It simply may not be a priority for your mom because she has other, more pressing, concerns. Especially when your father is not well.

ETA: I wouldn't call 70 y/o "old". 

Edited January 24 by regentrude

[fairfarmhand]

2 hours ago, WildflowerMom said:

Thank you for this reply and for your kindness and understanding!       
I don't think hers is grief.   I think she feels like "well, someone has to hold on to this family stuff, right?"    Her parents were not sentimental in the least.   Her siblings (5 kids in all) don't seem to be either.  Out of all us grandkids (there's a lot), TWO care about sentimental stuff and they are the 2 I'll call to come collect stuff when she's gone.      The issue for me that's probably the biggest issue is this:  (and I really am trying not to come across as a b8tch, I swear, y'all).  I have pretty bad anxiety and one of my triggers is messes.   Her house = MESS.  not filth, as much, but MESS.   She knows that it makes me very anxious to be in her home.  She tells me, "I wish you didn't have that".   "That" referring to severe anxiety over junk everywhere.   So she wants me there, pretty desperately (gets upset if I don't stay the night and instead comes for just a few hours, most of which are spent outside the house), YET she won't clean up.     She and my dad just pile crap on top of crap on top of crap, to the point where I can't put my very small purse on the kitchen counter when I walk in because there is literally no surface space for it.  Yet, she begs me to stay, constantly asks 'when can you come over???'    I didn't realize how much it was bothering me until now and frankly it's comforting (not for Carrie, lol) to see another person dealing with some similarities.   It's not like I'm not a good daughter. I am!  It's not like I don't care about their feelings, dignity, agency, or anything else.   It's that it all seems so one-sided.   'You come over here and do things for me and spend time with me' but ll make literally zero effort to make you feel comfortable or at ease.    

I’ve dealt with similar and what I wished had been done, rather than urging the person to deal with the anxiety and grief was to “help you organize “ so everything was in labeled totes. Not that anyone wanted all the crap. But so that the legitimately important stuff was boxed and categorized and at the end, the several important boxes could be grabbed and everything else dumped. In our situation, so many things that were needed and wanted were jumbled into random places that sorting it all out was a headache.

[maize]

4 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

I’m not 100% sure how to convey (or view) it. So, I can look around the room I’m in and see some dust, dog hair, and dog slobber on my baseboards, but I really have to look carefully to notice. They’d likely pass as clean by a visitor, but I’ll wipe them at some point soon. And I can see some spots I need to get to on cabinets, but not a big deal at the moment. (My new build checkup guy did say my house was cleaner than the vast majority at their 1-year check.) I can see I need to vacuum even though dh did before I got home Monday, and I’ll ignore mopping until the end of the week because the forecast is wet and muddy.

Their level of dirty, you can see across the room or looking through multiple rooms. It feels encased with 18 years (I just did the math) of ignoring daily/weekly/seasonal/annual tasks. Think 18 years of typical cooking grease, dust, webs collecting on décor over kitchen cabinets. Or on the vents of an overhead microwave. Which is how I know it will only continue building up. 

That doesn't sound like health hazard dirty. Pet hair, dust, and grease buildup don't make people sick (absent specific allergies). So--it's just cosmetic. Doesn't meet your standards, but not dangerous.

[WildflowerMom]

1 minute ago, fairfarmhand said:

I’ve dealt with similar and what I wished had been done, rather than urging the person to deal with the anxiety and grief was to “help you organize “ so everything was in labeled totes. Not that anyone wanted all the crap. But so that the legitimately important stuff was boxed and categorized and at the end, the several important boxes could be grabbed and everything else dumped. In our situation, so many things that were needed and wanted were jumbled into random places that sorting it all out was a headache.

Thanks for this suggestion!  I have tried.   I really have.   I've been thinking about this today since I opened this thread, and I really think the problem is that they (mom & dad) kind of poke fun at how decluttered and organized my house is and how I'm always wanting to organize.   She'll make little comments about it when I say I'm organizing, and then she always says, 'come do my house'.  I've *done* their house and within weeks it looks like a pigsty.   It is mostly my father's crap.   And I have daddy issues, so maybe that's why I get so angry about their house.  He has always been the problem, no matter what the 'problem' is and right now I can't even go visit my mother because he has crap everywhere.   She would be willing to put things in containers.   And I have gone through a few areas and basically forced her to toss crap out. But it doesn't matter because at the end of the day, my father will come back in and make everything look like crap again.   And since it already looks crappy, she'll just add more crap to the heaps of crap already there.   It's like they're in this vicious cycle.   I mean they are both at fault, but if he were gone, I think she would do much better at maintaining her space.   And then that makes me angry because once again, he's the king of the world and gets to decide everything and ruin everything.    
 

good grief, I really need to stop holding it all in and just let it out.   I may call or text her this week and just tell her everything I'm feeling.   It's probably better than just making excuses to avoid visiting her.    I know she wants me there as often as I can be, which is a lot, actually.   I could see her weekly if I wanted to.  Problem is I don't and I'm so anxious from all the mess that I want to take anxiety meds while I'm there and then I can't drive.   I mean, I can barely (literally!!) walk through the garage without falling or bruising my legs.  My father fell last week in the garage.   I'm not exaggerating the mess they have.  

[WildflowerMom]

And @Carrie12345, I'm sorry for hijacking!   Seriously!   It just hit a nerve.  I'm done, I promise!  

[thatfirstsip]

4 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

I’m not 100% sure how to convey (or view) it. So, I can look around the room I’m in and see some dust, dog hair, and dog slobber on my baseboards, but I really have to look carefully to notice. They’d likely pass as clean by a visitor, but I’ll wipe them at some point soon. And I can see some spots I need to get to on cabinets, but not a big deal at the moment. (My new build checkup guy did say my house was cleaner than the vast majority at their 1-year check.) I can see I need to vacuum even though dh did before I got home Monday, and I’ll ignore mopping until the end of the week because the forecast is wet and muddy.

Their level of dirty, you can see across the room or looking through multiple rooms. It feels encased with 18 years (I just did the math) of ignoring daily/weekly/seasonal/annual tasks. Think 18 years of typical cooking grease, dust, webs collecting on décor over kitchen cabinets. Or on the vents of an overhead microwave. Which is how I know it will only continue building up. 

That makes sense.

I don't necessarily see how this is likely to impact their health. It sounds like it just looks bad to you (and probably to most people!), but greasy cabinets or crusty baseboards are not dangerous or unsanitary, and if they're content with it, what is the actual problem?

[skimomma]

6 minutes ago, thatfirstsip said:

That makes sense.

I don't necessarily see how this is likely to impact their health. It sounds like it just looks bad to you (and probably to most people!), but greasy cabinets or crusty baseboards are not dangerous or unsanitary, and if they're content with it, what is the actual problem?

I get it.  It is not "a problem" from a safety standpoint, but it does sound like it could be a problem in that people are uncomfortable spending time there due to the ickiness which impacts relationships over time.  My own mother was a terrible housekeeper and a hoarder.  It got so bad that her adult children could no longer stay with her when visiting.  We all stayed in hotels (which was well outside of our budget at that time).  She could not understand why, which was flabbergasting to me seeing as she literally did not have cleared spaces for people to sleep.  The last time I spent the night at her house, over 25 years ago, I had to shovel a path to a guest bed, shovel the crap off the bed, snorkel into a different room to find bedding, WASH the bedding because it all reeked like cat urine, then made the bed only to spend the night listening to the mice that I apparently disturbed with all of my activity.  Never again.  She did not seem to think there was any reason for me to be uncomfortable with this situation.  She was upset and hurt when we stopped staying there.  And then stopped eating there after I witnessed my mom handing my dd a cookie with hands dripping in raw chicken juice (and the cookie in question was from an open box that had been expired for years).  There are other relationship problems, but this certainly did not help.  I vividly remember a moment during this time when I was sitting at the kitchen table, chatting with my mom.  The salt and pepper shakers were right in my line of vision and I realized the exteriors of the shakers were caked in grime.  Like so much grime that they had not been cleaned in years, if not decades.  SALT AND PEPPER SHAKERS SHOULD NOT HAVE GRIME ON THEM!  Ever.  That is such a little thing but I remember it so vividly because it made me physically gag and I spent the rest of that evening on the verge of throwing up, just from focussing on those grimy shakers for one moment.  Shortly before she moved into assisted living, we were driving to the nearest gas station to use the bathroom when visiting.  The bathrooms were so disgusting that a gas station bathroom was preferred.  

She would get irate if I tried to clean anything.  I did not risk offering to hire a cleaning service.  "You girls are just too picky" was always my mom's answer when I was "caught" trying to clean anything.

Obviously, that is more extreme than the OP's situation, but I just wanted to point out that there is an actual problem when things escalate too far aside from just basic sanitation and safety.

 

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

I still don’t understand the anger. If you could not afford to hire a cleaner, you could just say so.  If you could afford it, there is no reason to be angry at your son because he has more money than you. 
 

 

You really didn't read it closely if you think I'm angry at my son.  (i'll keep him.  :D)     

It's a different kid who has repeatedly told me if I just changed my attitude, my debilitating fibro symptoms would go away.  the telling me to hire someone to clean isn't' about them doing anything to actually be helpful.   It's like: they want credit for doing something - without actually doing something.
 

Edited January 24 by gardenmom5

[gardenmom5]

11 minutes ago, skimomma said:

I get it.  It is not "a problem" from a safety standpoint, but it does sound like it could be a problem in that people are uncomfortable spending time there due to the ickiness which impacts relationships over time.  My own mother was a terrible housekeeper and a hoarder.   . . . . The last time I spent the night at her house, over 25 years ago, I had to shovel a path to a guest bed, shovel the crap off the bed,  

She would get irate if I tried to clean anything.   

 

severe hoarding like this is often linked to depression.  and/or a 'scarcity mindset'.  a deep fear if something happens they wont' have what they need.  has she ever been evaluated for depression? 

Dh's grandparents were that bad.  sans cats or other pets.

[J-rap]

If she's never been a neat-freak as far as house-cleaning, then it's probably just not on her list of priorities.  I think of 70 as young too, but perhaps she is feeling tired and not able to keep up as well.  Some people age earlier.  When my mother was in her 80's, housework started to become tiresome for her (even though it was always important to her before).  My dad started helping her then (he finally retired at around 80!), and that helped a lot.  Together, they could keep up.  If your father isn't helping and it's all on your mother, she's probably just put it further down on her list of what's important.  Likely she only has energy for so much!

As long as a not-so-clean home isn't affecting their health, I wouldn't be too concerned.  However, do you think if you went ahead and bought her a gift certificate for a deep clean she'd be more apt to use it?  I started to do that with my mother before special events (my parents still hosted big holidays until around 88), and she really appreciated it!  I think she was uncomfortable about it at first, but began to appreciate it over time.

Edited January 24 by J-rap

[skimomma]

3 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

has she ever been evaluated for depression? 

 

Interesting that you ask this because this is another thing we begged her to get addressed.  However, she is of a generation that "does not believe in mental illness" so we never got anywhere.  But it's a moot point now.  She has dementia and lives in assisted living now.

[gardenmom5]

5 minutes ago, skimomma said:

Interesting that you ask this because this is another thing we begged her to get addressed.  However, she is of a generation that "does not believe in mental illness" so we never got anywhere.  But it's a moot point now.  She has dementia and lives in assisted living now.

2dd was taught how to deal with such patients. . . . They would find other ways of asking that would bypass the patient's own reticence to consider "the D word" by coming in though the back door.  Symptoms would be discussed, "the D word" would never be mentioned.

Edited January 24 by gardenmom5

[Innisfree]

@Terabith I’m not cringing, exactly, because my priorities are so very different from those of very clean, neat, tidy people, and various threads here over the years have made that apparent. But let’s just say that you are not the only one with cluttered counters and uncleaned baseboards. We have perpetual doggy nose prints on the windows with the good view, and we don’t even notice them.

[Ausmumof3]

If there’s stuff causing a fire hazard like vents that haven’t been cleaned they might need doing.

It wasn’t clear to me if she’s still working? If she is, and doesn’t hire cleaners that all sounds pretty normal. 
 

Outside of safety stuff like unwashed dishes and clothes, blocked walkways, pet urine/faeces cleanliness or otherwise is really a person’s own business.

Maybe if you have a kid in the right age you could say they were desperate for some pocket money and see if the person was open to having them do some of the odd jobs.

[Ausmumof3]

1 minute ago, Innisfree said:

@Terabith I’m not cringing, exactly, because my priorities are so very different from those of very clean, neat, tidy people, and various threads here over the years have made that apparent. But let’s just say that you are not the only one with cluttered counters and uncleaned baseboards. We have perpetual doggy nose prints on the windows with the good view, and we don’t even notice them.

I’m with you. Work, farm, and homeschool. Just finished studying. Cleaning is definitely not a priority.

[katilac]

7 hours ago, Bootsie said:

It might help to think of them as having some health issues that cause them to need some extra assistance rather than "old".  DH is older than your parents; I would not take kindly to our children referring to us as "old parents".  

Old is a descriptor, not an insult. It just means having lived for a long time, not young, which pretty much applies to 70+. 

She could have said senior citizen, but it means the same thing in the end. 

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

Note to self:  Do not invite anyone from the hive over to my house.  

A long time ago, I commented that my dining room table had been covered in science experiments and crafts for a decade, and a long-term boardie dragged me to filth 😂

She was usually nice, too, but was all like that's nothing to be proud about *aghast vibes* 

Never said i was proud about it, friend, but I'm not ashamed, either (current tense because there is a jigsaw puzzle covered that table at this very moment). 

50 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

Thanks for this suggestion!  I have tried.   I really have.   I've been thinking about this today since I opened this thread, and I really think the problem is that they (mom & dad) kind of poke fun at how decluttered and organized my house is and how I'm always wanting to organize.   She'll make little comments about it when I say I'm organizing, and then she always says, 'come do my house'.  I've *done* their house and within weeks it looks like a pigsty.   It is mostly my father's crap.   And I have daddy issues, so maybe that's why I get so angry about their house.  He has always been the problem, no matter what the 'problem' is and right now I can't even go visit my mother because he has crap everywhere.   She would be willing to put things in containers.   And I have gone through a few areas and basically forced her to toss crap out. But it doesn't matter because at the end of the day, my father will come back in and make everything look like crap again.   And since it already looks crappy, she'll just add more crap to the heaps of crap already there.   It's like they're in this vicious cycle.   I mean they are both at fault, but if he were gone, I think she would do much better at maintaining her space.   And then that makes me angry because once again, he's the king of the world and gets to decide everything and ruin everything.    
 

good grief, I really need to stop holding it all in and just let it out.   I may call or text her this week and just tell her everything I'm feeling.   It's probably better than just making excuses to avoid visiting her.    I know she wants me there as often as I can be, which is a lot, actually.   I could see her weekly if I wanted to.  Problem is I don't and I'm so anxious from all the mess that I want to take anxiety meds while I'm there and then I can't drive.   I mean, I can barely (literally!!) walk through the garage without falling or bruising my legs.  My father fell last week in the garage.   I'm not exaggerating the mess they have.  

That sounds infuriating. 

If she's close enough to see weekly, can you just offer to meet her for lunch/coffee/shopping/whatever? Then you're doing your part of being willing to visit. If she won't do that, don't make excuses for not going to her house, just remind her that the clutter gives you anxiety, but you're ready to see her somewhere else. 

[katilac]

I got distracted and never answered the OP. 

Yes, you have to let it go. Lots of people have a high tolerance for dust and grime and dirty baseboards. 

She's declined outside help. If you clean it, you're only going to get annoyed that it gets dirty again quickly. 

[SKL]

It's been a long time since my kids or I spent the night at my folks' house, but that is more because I don't want them to do the work needed to make me comfortable.

If I were to sleep there now, I would just sleep on their couch.  If I didn't trust their bedding, I'd bring my own bedding.  So if you're thinking you really want to stay there but just don't love the condition of the bedrooms, maybe that would work.

I don't know your mom, but I think maybe it's OK to just say "Mom, I don't plan on staying the night because there's no open sleeping space."

[rebcoola]

2 hours ago, Terabith said:

Note to self:  Do not invite anyone from the hive over to my house.  My counters are constantly full of clutter and I don't think I have cleaned my baseboards like ever.  ETA:  Or blinds, for sure.  I know I have never scrubbed down all my cabinets unless there was a very obvious spill.  I know I'm a terrible housekeeper, but I'm really cringing here.  

I mean, I already don't invite people over hardly ever, because I'm self conscious about my terrible housekeeping.  But yeah, priorities are laundry, dishes, cat items, cooking/ eating surfaces.  Anything else is a bonus.

Me too

[SKL]

As for the cleanliness of my house ... I just blame everything on the dog, who has no shame.  What absolutely can't be my dog's fault is blamed on my kids.  In the rare case that doesn't work, I have 2 housemates to blame.  😛  But seriously, even though I'm the neatest person I know, I can't make other people neat.