Deleted. Thanks!!

[Indigo Blue]

Can I just vent a bit about something and also see if you think my thinking on this is right? 
 

PLEASE DON’T QUOTE!!!!!!

Better delete now. Thanks!

 

Edited August 25, 2023 by Indigo Blue

[knitgrl]

It seems unlikely your dh would have been paid. It was probably more intended as a guilt trip because his leaving means it will cost the church money for what he did for free. And, as you say, they are struggling.

[blue plaid]

I am so sorry.  The comment from the pulpit you mentioned seems at best inappropriate and more likely just plain wrong.  The pastor is not the Holy Spirit.  If he thinks he is, that is scary.

[PeterPan]

It sounds like that's why they're bullying and guilt-tripping, because they don't want to have to pay. So no, no plans to pay, clearly.

I'm sorry things have gotten ugly. Sounds like the pastor has serious issues and needs a vacation.

[J-rap]

I wouldn't overthink it...  This is all part of the reason why you're leaving.  I do wonder -- since you've made the decision to go -- why you haven't already left?

Sorry it's happening though.  I'm sure it's not easy.  😞

(For what it's worth though, the pastor is probably feeling kind of desperate, but handling it that way isn't the right approach.)

 

[elegantlion]

Um, that seems a really inappropriate comment to make from the pulpit. It would only hasten my leaving, honestly but I've had too much of pastors who try to be the mouth of God instead of the heart - if that makes any sense. 

[marbel]

The pastor is wrong, and probably desperate because of the split and because he is losing unpaid labor. This is one of the signs of a very unhealthy church, in my experience. The comment from the pulpit may have been aimed at your husband, or any number of other people who may also be leaving their positions (which you may not know about). 

I echo @J-rap, why are you still going? I appreciate that your husband wanted to give notice of his leaving the committee, but you don't have to attend the service,  you don't have to pay attention to his declarations from the pulpit. 

Edited August 25, 2023 by marbel

[Clarita]

They won't ever pay DH. 

I read your pastors statements just as you have, but I'm also a little miffed at my own church so that may color my thoughts.

[Carol in Cal.]

We had a very dedicated guy at our former church who did all the bookkeeping and bill paying and budgeting help and served as the treasurer for quite a few years.  He would present at church council meetings for 25 minutes routinely, each month.  He probably spent 20 hours per week volunteering for this.  He finally got to the breaking point on this, because he lost his job and had to look for and dedicate himself to a new one.  So he finished out his term and stepped down.

Someone else took over, and basically didn’t do the job.  Then another person did the same thing, only worse.  

This divided people.  Some were very defensive of the guys that just couldn’t keep up (or didn’t) while others were furious.  I was more on a middle path.  I thought that the job was unreasonable for a volunteer, and that’s what I kept saying.  As in, “Yes, it’s awful that we don’t have well documented books and results this year.  But this is too big a job to fairly place onto one person, and we should hire someone to keep the books and pay the bills, while keeping the treasurer, a state-required officer, a less time consuming position.”  Finally we got a church president who figure out what was going on, and instead of standing for reelection, stepped down into the treasurer role to organize and catch it up, a very significant job as the books had not been balanced in three years.  We were so fortunate to have him do that.

Then he said to the council that we needed to hire someone to keep the books and pay the bills, and make the treasurer job a more summary oriented overview one, exactly what I had been suggesting.  So I piped up and said that that was great, and that in fairness we needed to offer that job to the guy who had done it so well for free for so long, which had not occurred to anyone else, apparently.  People object that he would not take the job.  But I argued that we still needed to offer it to him, in recognition of all the volunteer time that he had put into it over the years.  Finally everyone agreed, and he was offered the job and took it.  I thought that was the best of all possible worlds.  But it easily could have gone another way and caused friction.

[Carol in Cal.]

2 minutes ago, marbel said:

The pastor is wrong, and probably desperate because of the split and because he is losing unpaid labor. This is one of the signs of a very unhealthy church, in my experience. The comment from the pulpit may have been aimed at your husband, or any number of other people who may also be leaving their positions (which you may not know about). 

I echo @J-rap, why are you still going? I appreciate that your husband wanted to give notice of his leaving the committee, but you don't have to attend the service,  you don't have to pay attention to his declarations from the pulpit. 

I don’t know about unhealthy.  It could be just unstaffed.

I have local knowledge of a church in which the pastor keeps the books, not because he wants to, but because he is literally the only person who knows how.  There is no magic wand that makes all the skills needed to run a decent sized little company coellesce into every tiny congregation in the world and remain there, volunteering.  As modern life has become increasingly complicated, and churches have simultaneously dropped in size, this kind of issue will become more and more common.

[Katy]

It sounds toxic and unbiblical. I probably would have stood up and walked out as soon as he said it. 

[marbel]

8 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I don’t know about unhealthy.  It could be just unstaffed.

From the OP:

'And the next Sunday, this from the pulpit: “It doesn’t matter how long you have been doing a job here. You should be willing to do things until your last breath. And I don’t care if I’m the most boring human on earth. You should listen to my instruction.”'

I dunno, sounds pretty unhealthy to me. I don't mean to be argumentative; we just have very different views of healthy vs unhealthy churches, and that's fine. Well, I guess I am being argumentative but honestly your comment kinda blew my mind. 

[Terabith]

I don’t think this is a small thing.  I think this is a big deal, very problematic thing, and I would want to leave immediately. I vaguely recall that y’all have a compelling reason to stay until a certain time though. 

[Spryte]

That comment is pointed and meant to induce guilt and shame, and to manipulate.
 

Why would you want anything to do with those people, at this point? 

I hope you find a new church home that fits you and your family.

[BlsdMama]

A friend recently said her husband has noted more and more people don't give the folks the benefit of the doubt. He told her that more need to just assume good intentions. I've thought about this 100 times since then.

 

"Mom! He ate the last yogurt. He knew I wanted that." Did he?  And I have surely been sitting in church on a Sunday morning and felt a sermon was so perfectly tailored to ME, but I knew this series had been in the works for weeks.

Finally, of course it would not have been paid because churches heavily depend on their congregation to utilize their skills and abilities to help. However, when people can't or won't, then necessities must be done by non-congregants who won't do it for free. 😉 

[ScoutTN]

Completely inappropriate behavior/comment from the pastor. Using guilt and manipulation to get people to do things is a sign of fundamentally unhealthy leadership. Glad you are getting out.

Edited August 25, 2023 by ScoutTN

[Faith-manor]

He would not have been paid. Churches use the unpaid workers until no one will do the job anymore, and then begrudgingly make it a paid position. Mark was the church treasurer at one church we attended. They brought him into the position to straighten out a massive mess with their finances which means he was book keeper, accountant, balance the books, get them on a budget, the whole nine yards. It ended up taking 12 hours a week, and was a total, stressful nightmare. When we left the church, they could not get anyone else to take it since it required more hours than any other volunteer position. They ended up advertising online, and hired someone for $10,000 a year. They started out at $6000 and had to keep increasing. When they got to 10,000, they finally able to hire someone.

Same for music. Never wanted to pay for a pianist or worship team leader despite the fact that the hours were way more than other volunteer positions. When we left the other main couple departed as well so they lost worship team lead, head sound tech, and two pianists. They couldn't fill those from within so they had to advertise for pay. $100 a service for the pianists and worship team lead, but I think they got a sound tech for $75 a service.

We learned our lesson. If it is a once per quarter, once per month, a couple of hours each time thing, or once per annum long day kind of thing like church nursery on a rotation or Sunday School class or something, then we volunteered. If it was a 52 week a year thing and lots of pressure not to miss, show me the paycheck. We picked one, not particularly time consuming thing to do as volunteers at our next church. We never agreed to anything else unless it was paid. We took a monthly rotation in the preschool class and we volunteered at their annual community outreach event. When they wanted music and finance, we told them what our rates were, and let them think about that. Sometimes they chose to hire us, sometimes not.

Even though I have deconstructed, I still love sacred music, especially liturgical music, so I substitute at area churches on occasion when their regular pianist is unavailable, $100.00 a service, check waiting on the piano when I arrive. Keeping it professional like that sure has paid off in being treated nicely, and it keeps things upfront and pleasant so I do not feel any stress and can be, in return, relaxed, gracious, and pleasant.

The other thing is that when leaving a volunteer position at a church, it seems to me that they always assume the worst of the person, ill intentions, etc. They never think, "Hey that person has a lot on their plate, or has to focus on family or health, or is burned out and needs a break." Nope. Always the worst. That is very discouraging. If they are going to think the worst of you at the end of the job no matter what you do, it is easier to just take the heat up front and then not have the stress of the job. I don't know why churches operate this way but I think it may come from trying to do more programs, classes, etc. then they can manage so everyone is stressed and running around unable to stop and listen, stop to consider. Someone stepping away is just one more stress so they get fired up.

OP, I know you are already done, but your husband was trying to go out the door more gently. Well, they just pulled the gracious and gentle rug right out from underneath him. He doesn't owe them a thing, and most certainly not when the pastor gets to run off at the mouth and be nasty while "sermonizing". Leadership needs accountability or they end up like this pastor. There should be consequences, and the first consequence should be that he doesn't see your dh in church ever again starting now. He abused his power, and he should not get the opportunity to do it again.

[Indigo Blue]

Deleted

Edited August 25, 2023 by Indigo Blue

[Pawz4me]

27 minutes ago, BlsdMama said:

 

Finally, of course it would not have been paid because churches heavily depend on their congregation to utilize their skills and abilities to help. However, when people can't or won't, then necessities must be done by non-congregants who won't do it for free. 😉 

 

9 minutes ago, ScoutTN said:

Completely inappropriate behavior/comment from the pastor. Using guilt and manipulation to get people to do things is a sign of fundamentally unhealthy leadership. Glad you are getting out.

I agree with both of these.

It's been a very long time since we were church goers, so maybe things have changed. But I can't imagine a scenario in which a church would pay a member to do a job that's considered voluntary. I've known of all sorts of people from white collar professionals to skilled tradespeople who did things for their churches and there was never an expectation of payment. Reimbursement for materials--yes. But not for time. But if no one in the membership has the needed knowledge or skills then at that point the church will pay someone.

Edited August 25, 2023 by Pawz4me

[Indigo Blue]

4 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

 

I agree with both of these.

It's been a very long time since we were church goers, so maybe things have changed. But I can't imagine a scenario in which a church would be a member to do a job that's considered voluntary. I've known of all sorts of people from white collar professionals to skilled tradespeople who did things for their churches and there was never an expectation of payment. Reimbursement for materials--yes. But not for time. But if no one in the membership has the needed knowledge or skills then at that point the church will pay someone.

Deleted for privacy 

Edited August 25, 2023 by Indigo Blue

[TexasProud]

Ok, your pastor is absolutely toxic. Aren't you the one that also said he took over all of Sunday school???  I would have been out of there a really long time ago.  Honestly, the faster you can get out of there the better. 

[Indigo Blue]

3 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

Ok, your pastor is absolutely toxic. Aren't you the one that also said he took over all of Sunday school???  I would have been out of there a really long time ago.  Honestly, the faster you can get out of there the better. 

No, I don’t know who said that. Thanks, though. 

[Beth S]

IMO, this happens frequently in churches. 
Sometimes volunteers need to quit!
I would act obtuse and not succumb to the pastor's pressure.
It's just a statement of fact---your dh cannot volunteer anymore.

Then Pass The Bean Dip!  😉

Our long-time church secretary handles the church finances, with 2 Elders double-checking her work.

Edited August 25, 2023 by Beth S

[TexasProud]

10 minutes ago, Indigo Blue said:

No, I don’t know who said that. Thanks, though. 

Ok, but still.  Calling someone out from the pulpit is a huge red flag. I would be gone the next Sunday if he called ANYONE out like that. 

[Indigo Blue]

@Faith-manorthanks for that. There was so much in your post to think about, and so much of it really resonated. You made very good points. 
 

Deleted the rest of the post.

Edited August 25, 2023 by Indigo Blue

[Faith-manor]

24 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

 

I agree with both of these.

It's been a very long time since we were church goers, so maybe things have changed. But I can't imagine a scenario in which a church would pay a member to do a job that's considered voluntary. I've known of all sorts of people from white collar professionals to skilled tradespeople who did things for their churches and there was never an expectation of payment. Reimbursement for materials--yes. But not for time. But if no one in the membership has the needed knowledge or skills then at that point the church will pay someone.

I think the issue here is some "volunteer" positions are really more like part time jobs because they are so time intensive and require special skill sets. I know not a soul in that church who was putting in 12 hours per week, 52 weeks a year, in order to teach Sunday School or fill communion cups or greet people at the door. People are starting to balk at being tied down to huge volunteer jobs that are so hard on them. Sure, a lot of things should be voluntary. I am not sure music, finance, custodial, etc. should be when they take so many family hours to accomplish and require time commitments outside the scope of once a month or just a few hours per month.

[Indigo Blue]

Truth: This is probably a Dh and me problem. Not recognizing the toxicity in my FOO until my fifties…..seeing it now, and also seeing it fully in other areas, including our church. Since I now do, I am making such huge changes in my life, and Dh is finally seeing it, too. 

[ScoutTN]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

He would not have been paid. Churches use the unpaid workers until no one will do the job anymore, and then begrudgingly make it a paid position. Mark was the church treasurer at one church we attended. They brought him into the position to straighten out a massive mess with their finances which means he was book keeper, accountant, balance the books, get them on a budget, the whole nine yards. It ended up taking 12 hours a week, and was a total, stressful nightmare. When we left the church, they could not get anyone else to take it since it required more hours than any other volunteer position. They ended up advertising online, and hired someone for $10,000 a year. They started out at $6000 and had to keep increasing. When they got to 10,000, they finally able to hire someone.

Same for music. Never wanted to pay for a pianist or worship team leader despite the fact that the hours were way more than other volunteer positions. When we left the other main couple departed as well so they lost worship team lead, head sound tech, and two pianists. They couldn't fill those from within so they had to advertise for pay. $100 a service for the pianists and worship team lead, but I think they got a sound tech for $75 a service.

We learned our lesson. If it is a once per quarter, once per month, a couple of hours each time thing, or once per annum long day kind of thing like church nursery on a rotation or Sunday School class or something, then we volunteered. If it was a 52 week a year thing and lots of pressure not to miss, show me the paycheck. We picked one, not particularly time consuming thing to do as volunteers at our next church. We never agreed to anything else unless it was paid. We took a monthly rotation in the preschool class and we volunteered at their annual community outreach event. When they wanted music and finance, we told them what our rates were, and let them think about that. Sometimes they chose to hire us, sometimes not.

Even though I have deconstructed, I still love sacred music, especially liturgical music, so I substitute at area churches on occasion when their regular pianist is unavailable, $100.00 a service, check waiting on the piano when I arrive. Keeping it professional like that sure has paid off in being treated nicely, and it keeps things upfront and pleasant so I do not feel any stress and can be, in return, relaxed, gracious, and pleasant.

The other thing is that when leaving a volunteer position at a church, it seems to me that they always assume the worst of the person, ill intentions, etc. They never think, "Hey that person has a lot on their plate, or has to focus on family or health, or is burned out and needs a break." Nope. Always the worst. That is very discouraging. If they are going to think the worst of you at the end of the job no matter what you do, it is easier to just take the heat up front and then not have the stress of the job. I don't know why churches operate this way but I think it may come from trying to do more programs, classes, etc. then they can manage so everyone is stressed and running around unable to stop and listen, stop to consider. Someone stepping away is just one more stress so they get fired up.

OP, I know you are already done, but your husband was trying to go out the door more gently. Well, they just pulled the gracious and gentle rug right out from underneath him. He doesn't owe them a thing, and most certainly not when the pastor gets to run off at the mouth and be nasty while "sermonizing". Leadership needs accountability or they end up like this pastor. There should be consequences, and the first consequence should be that he doesn't see your dh in church ever again starting now. He abused his power, and he should not get the opportunity to do it again.

Not all churches operate this way! I have spent my entire career since age 18 working in churches and not encountered this kind of issue.

I have seen plenty of problems as churches are filled with sinners, but I find it inaccurate and a substantial over-generalization to say churches behave this way. Some do, sadly; many do not. 
 

Eta: I think this problem is something that many smaller organizations and ones that depend heavily on volunteers are prone to. Scouting, for example. 

Edited August 25, 2023 by ScoutTN

[bolt.]

I think you are completely right: at one time this church was a great place to be. But it really *has* gone off the rails. I know you keep phrasing things as 'a small vent' and 'a little observation' -- and asking us if we think your reactions are disproportionate. These things are not small. They are red flags for serious problems. Most 'insiders' don't see these things accurately as they slowly change around them... but they often feel them. Like you do.

I'm glad you are leaving.

I predict that once you go, you won't talk to anyone about your former church for a while. Then, eventually, you will find yourself saying things like, "... when we were leaving a toxic church..." when you tell stories about these times.

[Indigo Blue]

2 minutes ago, bolt. said:

I think you are completely right: at one time this church was a great place to be. But it really *has* gone off the rails. I know you keep phrasing things as 'a small vent' and 'a little observation' -- and asking us if we think your reactions are disproportionate. These things are not small. They are red flags for serious problems. Most 'insiders' don't see these things accurately as they slowly change around them... but they often feel them. Like you do.

I'm glad you are leaving.

I predict that once you go, you won't talk to anyone about your former church for a while. Then, eventually, you will find yourself saying things like, "... when we were leaving a toxic church..." when you tell stories about these times.

Thanks, Bolt. It really has gone off the rails. More than I can say. Thanks for pointing out that these are not small things and validating this. It helps to keep my head on straight and my thinking clear. 

[Indigo Blue]

@Faith-manorthey probably will have sour feelings toward Dh when he steps down. It won’t matter that he did that job for years and years. I’m sure it will all be behind the scenes. We won’t hear it, so it won’t matter. 

Edited August 25, 2023 by Indigo Blue

[City Mouse]

I’d be leaving right away. 

[wintermom]

Yes, according to your description, your thinking is accurate. The pastor is trying to strong-arm your dh into continuing his services for free. Perhaps, if your dh feels responsible for finding a replacement, he can take this to the three-member team and as a group brainstorm about finding a replacement. If he feels no need to do this, that's also perfectly acceptable. 

[Terabith]

If he offers to stay a few more weeks until they find someone, they absolutely will not find anyone.  He needs to have a hard deadline.  

Even functional, healthy churches that mean well, have so much on their plate, that they might inadvertently take advantage of someone willing to stay until they find someone because there just isn't the same urgency, and there is so much that IS unavoidably urgent.

[Indigo Blue]

3 hours ago, Terabith said:

 

If he offers to stay a few more weeks until they find someone, they absolutely will not find anyone.  He needs to have a hard deadline.  

Edited August 25, 2023 by Indigo Blue

[cintinative]

OP, your husband is right to set boundaries and it is absolutely okay to step away.

The pastor was wrong to preach that way from the pulpit. God can absolutely rise up laborers when they are needed. Sometimes the church needs to come to a point of understanding those laborers need to be paid. Even so, when we serve out of guilt we tarnish the gift of our service.

Our church is kind of an interesting blend. We pay our accounting people, our treasurer, and our worship leader.  But my husband has been asked over and over to do IT stuff and while he does help very occasionally, he has had to gently remind the staff regularly that he has a job, and he cannot be available to them whenever. If they want immediate attention, or even attention within a calendar week, they need to hire someone.  He is a deacon and at one point the elders tried to imply that IT was a deacon responsibility and he pushed way back on that.  I have been clear with my husband that I am not okay with him taking on the IT responsibility.  Just doing regular deacon stuff takes enough time away from our family. 

So there are times when we must set up those boundaries.  Sometimes people just don't see the situation from the other side and they need to be educated about the realities around what they are asking. 

[Harriet Vane]

16 minutes ago, Terabith said:

If he offers to stay a few more weeks until they find someone, they absolutely will not find anyone.  He needs to have a hard deadline.  

Even functional, healthy churches that mean well, have so much on their plate, that they might inadvertently take advantage of someone willing to stay until they find someone because there just isn't the same urgency, and there is so much that IS unavoidably urgent.

This. Exactly. 

BTDT

[kbutton]

2 hours ago, Katy said:

It sounds toxic and unbiblical. I probably would have stood up and walked out as soon as he said it. 

Ditto. Even if it wasn’t pointed at your husband, it was manipulative and mean. Some people shouldn’t be pastors and some seminaries are training pastors to be treated as infallible and the final authority on everything. This is the ugly result.

[SKL]

You will feel 100% better after you make the break and leave the church.

I don't think it's unusual for nonprofits to keep asking people who've been willing in the past if they'd be willing to do "just a little more."  Actually this has happened to me a lot.  People are going to try the easy way until they find out your "no" meant "no."

The pulpit thing - I don't know, it's impossible to tell whether he meant it for your husband, or you and your husband were expecting him to be thinking that way based on past involvement.  I think people often read into what they hear when they are feeling sensitive / defensive.

I think it's best to assume good intentions and just move on, until and unless the church leadership says something overtly horrible.  And even if that happens, you're moving on anyway.  Most likely for a reason.

[Indigo Blue]

10 minutes ago, SKL said:

You will feel 100% better after you make the break and leave the church.

I don't think it's unusual for nonprofits to keep asking people who've been willing in the past if they'd be willing to do "just a little more."  Actually this has happened to me a lot.  People are going to try the easy way until they find out your "no" meant "no."

The pulpit thing - I don't know, it's impossible to tell whether he meant it for your husband, or you and your husband were expecting him to be thinking that way based on past involvement.  I think people often read into what they hear when they are feeling sensitive / defensive.

I think it's best to assume good intentions and just move on, until and unless the church leadership says something overtly horrible.  And even if that happens, you're moving on anyway.  Most likely for a reason.

Thanks. Overtly horrible has already been covered, trust me. 

Edited August 25, 2023 by Indigo Blue
Typo

[Indigo Blue]

4 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

Leadership needs accountability or they end up like this pastor.

Deleted for privacy 

Edited August 25, 2023 by Indigo Blue

[Danae]

As a point of comparison, I also attend a small church that sometimes struggles to fill volunteer positions.  But our pastor is very clear that every volunteer should feel free to step down if they feel they need to. Many positions have a set term, and people can be asked if they’d like to serve another term, but it’s never assumed.  And whenever anyone is asked to volunteer for anything no means no and is accepted without comment or question.  
 

Churches like this exist, OP.  Don’t fall into thinking that the toxic nonsense you’re experiencing now is normal or acceptable.

[Catwoman]

2 hours ago, Indigo Blue said:

Terabith, this is what I said to him. He’s just giving them a vague, “a few more weeks”. He’s not heeding my warning. Hopefully, you and I are wrong and they find someone promptly. 

Personally, I would tell him the pastor that you and DH had planned to stay for a few more weeks, but after that obnoxious little performance from the pulpit on Sunday, neither of you will be returning to the church — effective immediately.

Let him suck it up and deal with it. Why would your husband even consider continuing to help such an arrogant jerk?

 

Edited August 25, 2023 by Catwoman

[Indigo Blue]

33 minutes ago, Danae said:

Churches like this exist, OP.  Don’t fall into thinking that the toxic nonsense you’re experiencing now is normal or acceptable.

This is good to know. We have visited some that seem nice. I never want to be miserable in a church again. I’d much rather just not go. 

[SKL]

Honestly I have never stepped up to do volunteer work at church, and I doubt I ever will.  I've done hundreds of hours per year for various organizations, in addition to being a single mom, working full time, and having extended family responsibilities.  I want church to feel like a retreat, not a yoke.  (I do contribute to the church in other ways.)  It's nice that a lot of people do feel moved to volunteer, but it's not for everyone IMO.

Even if you're inclined to volunteer at church, I would recommend waiting until you've been at your new church for a while, and then maybe taking on one thing ... preferably something that is easy to walk away from if it comes to that.  I would require a pretty high level of trust before I took on a financial role or similar.  (And I've been treasurer of a number of organizations, so that's not the issue.)

[Lady Marmalade]

Agreeing with others that your DH needs to give them a date.  A firm date.  Put it in writing in the form of a resignation notice.  

The Pastor was out of line saying what he did from the pulpit.  He should have arranged for a private meeting or phone call with your DH to discuss the matter.  I have been a volunteer at my church since 2008, first on the worship team, and also as the building's custodian.  If my Pastors have an issue to discuss, they do it with me in person, not as part of the sermon from the Sunday morning pulpit.