Needing gentle encouragement in a complex situation re college

[Penny_P]

I'll try to summarize. 

My 20 year old has a difficult personality. I homeschooled her for 2nd grade only. She and her father/ my husband have clashed since she was little. (I suspect he has mild narcissism- he tends to be emotional, self- centered, and gas lights- although I think he truly believes his reality, among other things. It's subtle though. Sometimes he doesn't fully commit to something and you think he has. IE our daughter really wants to move out- it was both of our understandings that she would be able to next year when returning to the university, until he laughed and said he never agreed to that. I had bought her basic apartment supplies at Christmas. Also, he is extremely cheap. Spending unnecessary money causes him physical pain. And, we have plenty of money, but you'd never know it to look at us.) 

In high school she was diagnosed with depression and ADD. She is medicated for both. She graduated with a 3.49, went to a state school 2 hours away. She was tired of the drive and had a boyfriend in town, so she decided to come back. However, husband stated because she was losing her state scholarship she had to attend CC for the year, which she unwillingly agreed to. GPA was 3.1. The first semester she withdrew from her classes, which we had already paid for. She stated she hated that cc and wanted to be closer. She moved to the closer CC so the drive was only 20 minutes from the house. Pre-nursing classes.

Two weeks ago we toured a private Christian school- beautiful campus and friendly people. It was really quite lovely. Our friend's son was getting all sorts of scholarships supposedly making it cheaper than the in town state university option where she was planning to go this fall. She left crying saying that dad would never pay for it. 

I told her that we should at least try. It's an environment that I thought she could thrive in, especially if we managed to have her live on campus. She qualifies for nothing with FAFSA. I was looking into scholarships for her and together we pulled up her unofficial transcripts from this spring semester, since we hadn't actually paid for her classes yet to order real ones. Straight F's. I was/am shocked. And, disappointed. I suspected her grades weren't good, but not terrible. She stated that she doesn't do well online and didn't want to go there to begin with. Only some of that was online.

She begged me to not tell her father, although he's been asking about her grades. There's no way he'll put any more money towards her education. I fear he will despise her. Withdrawing was bad. F's are far worse. It's burdensome to try to keep it a secret.  Prior to that great reveal, I told her scholarships had to be her full time job. I don't think she's done anything with it, although we are still waiting for an official admissions letter. Instead, she's been looking into volunteering at a hostel in Europe this summer. The whole situation is really depressing. I'm alarmed she's made so many bad choices, especially knowing her father. I feel like a victim myself. It's his money, as I have been told from the beginning, since he makes almost all of it. I have very little say in the spending of any of it. He's a very clever, successful attorney and very good at manipulating words. I really want to advocate for her, but she's not stepping up either. 

Anyway, that's as brief as I can make it. Any kind encouragement? (I posted similar on a Christian fb group- the admin refused to publish it stating that we were disappointing as parents and it was all our fault. Maybe she was right, but she was not compassionate in her response.)

[Faith-manor]

First of all, your adult child is an adult. She literally does not have to do what her father says, though that of course means she does need to move out. It is disappointing that she failed classes, but not the end of the world, and many students do poorly in online who would do well in person. Online does not work for many learners.

I would encourage her to get EMT training, one semester for basic and a great basis for becoming a future nurse, and then have her work and save money to move out or find her a place with friends where she can just rent a room and get out sooner. Independence will probably work wonders for her. When she is 24, she will be independent in terms of FAFSA, and will qualify for more financial aid. Then she can apply to university. Four years of working as an EMT will help her mature, and she will learn a lot that will help her in nursing school. There isn't anything wrong with going to school later. On top of that, she can go in as a freshman. She can't transfer the failed classes anyway, and after four years, doesn't even need to provide a transcript of them to the university since she will apply as a freshman. It will be a clean start.

I urge both of you to get into counseling. It isn't "his money". It is marital property and just because your job as a wife and mother doesn't come with a paycheck, that doesn't make you lesser than him. You have as much right to a say in the household spending as he does. He is committing financial abuse to you, and frankly, I suspect that if you saw a professional therapist, you would recognize emotional abuse as well.

Let your daughter go to Europe for the summer as a volunteer. It will be good for her to exercise some independence. Tell your husband to stick it where the sun doesn't shine. She is 20. Not even a teen anymore. Seriously, he does NOT get to micromanage her life. That isn't even legal much less moral.

I am very sorry for the circumstances in which you find yourself. Very tough! I am also very sorry that the admin of the christian group responded in a way that is actually quite unchristian. Done listen to that person. You are not a bad parent. Your daughter just needs some different experiences and to be out from under her controlling father in order to develop her own skill set, think for herself, figure out what she wants to do, set goals, and then work towards achieving them.

[maize]

Your husband is abusive.

Money within a marriage is shared money,  legally and ethically. Controlling it the way he does is abusive. The way your daughter and you both fear telling him about her grades indicates you expect him to react in an emotionally abusive way.

I am so sorry--and this is coming from a place of empathy through some lived experiences of my own. My husband suffers from mental illness and has often been verbally and emotionally abusive over the years. He would likely have been controlling as well as control is often a way of coping with anxiety, but I've been able to pretty consistently stand up to those tendencies. I've moved heaven and earth to help him get and maintain psychiatric treatment and that has helped, but it's still been a difficult marriage and a difficult environment for my kids to grow up in.

Which brings me to my recommendation: I'd be inclined to encourage your daughter to go volunteer at the youth hostel in Europe, if that is a genuine opportunity (definitely vet it, talk to people who have done it). My oldest is 19 and currently doing a gap year in Germany. She's working with a therapist dealing with some mental health issues of her own including PTSD symptoms from growing up with an unstable, emotionally volatile parent. The first time she told her therapist about her issues with her dad he told her that moving 6000 miles away was probably the best thing she could do. I'm inclined to agree with that. Germany is temporary, but it's a chance to get completely out from under his roof and influence and start figuring out who she is without stressing over him and his volatility and reactions.

[SKL]

Sounds like your daughter needs to do something different from school for now.  She can always go back to school once she gets her thoughts and her life better organized.  She can then pay for it herself if her parents are not inclined to help financially (which is a valid choice IMO).

I think your daughter should tell her dad what her grades were, or, she should keep them private and reimburse what you paid for the classes.  (Is it possible she got Fs because her withdrawal date was too late for Ws?  That would be more understandable IMO.)

She's 20 and needs to make and own her own choices.

Edited May 31, 2023 by SKL

[SKL]

Also, rather than discuss what your husband will or won't allow / support / pay for, I would just point out (to him) that his words and actions will affect what kind of relationship he will have with his adult daughter going forward.

[maize]

Does your daughter already have a passport? If not, she needs to know that passport applications are taking months to process these days. She needs to jump on that now if it is something she wants.

[SanDiegoMom]

I have an older dd with ADHD, and anything involving executive functioning is harder. Online school was terrible for her.  And when she procrastinates on things because of the EF, then it makes her more anxious, and she goes into a spiral that ends with her sticking her head in the sand and ignoring everything.  

The things that work best with her is offering help or just being with her in person while she does boring tasks, like filling out forms or doing taxes.  If I had told her to "go find scholarships" that would be setting her up for failure.  

The money dynamic is just plain wrong, and I agree with the suggestion of removing your daughter from the dynamic.  

 

[ScoutTN]

Agreeing with pp, your husband is abusive. All of you need to be in counseling. Please go yourself and help your Dd find a good counselor too. His control of the finances is hugely problematic and wrong and it makes you unsafe. Are you on all the accounts? Please seek help to address this. 

I would absolutely facilitate your Dd getting out and away, taking a break from school to gain maturity and direction. How is she on life skills like managing money, being on time to work, cooking, basic housekeeping?  Has she held jobs in the past?  Anything she can build on? There are many possibilities for a gap year. 

Edited May 31, 2023 by ScoutTN

[ScoutTN]

17 minutes ago, maize said:

Does your daughter already have a passport? If not, she needs to know that passport applications are taking months to process these days. She needs to jump on that now if it is something she wants.

Yes. Pay the extra for expedited. 

[QueenCat]

1 hour ago, maize said:

Your husband is abusive.

Money within a marriage is shared money,  legally and ethically. Controlling it the way he does is abusive. The way your daughter and you both fear telling him about her grades indicates you expect him to react in an emotionally abusive way.

 

This! The first problem is the abusive father/husband. Assist your daughter in any way possible on moving out and giving her some "hands up" to help her after leaving. And yes, you can spend the money in the marriage. You don't need his permission. If he's made it where you can't access it, you need to lawyer up if he won't give you access. 

[cintinative]

Agreeing with the others, the control of money by your husband is textbook abusive manipulation.  I am so sorry you are dealing with that.  I would definitely seek counseling. I hear a lot of fear about talking to him in your post.  Again, so very sorry that is your situation.

Also affirming the prior poster's response that the Christian FB group admin's response to your plea for help was horrible. It was not helpful, compassionate, or kind.   All of us parents are just trying to do our best.  You have a unique and hard situation. Don't let that person's toxic response affect you one bit. 

[lmrich]

Agreeing with the others. 

Your daughter is an adult now. Her choices are hers. Let her go (and maybe  go with her).

[Carol in Cal.]

Yes, she is an adult, but as parents I think you have the responsibility to get her launched. 

In my world, I’d go to the mat for that college that she loved, and I’d make it stick.  I’d regard it as the start of her getting her own specific destiny worked out, setting her own goals and supporting her in achieving them.

I’d also make a list of what life skills and emotional support coaching she needs and figure out a way to get them to her.  I’d pretty much ignore my husband in favor of that, not something I say lightly.  I’d want her to be able to stand on her own two feet.  

[Storygirl]

I agree with other replies. I think some away will be beneficial, but I also think it's wise to have a plan for when she returns. It sounds like she is dependent on her dad for money, and that he is not a fan of paying for school anyway, so perhaps she can tell him that she plans to take a year off to work and decide what to do next. That way she can continue to live at home for a year while saving the money needed to move out on her own. And then, yes, move out and plan to pay for her own education.

It may seem like a long time to her to wait until she is 24 to try college again, but it will be much more affordable then, because at that age, parents' income is no longer considered for financial aid. It's also worth noting that this is also true for married students who are under the age of 24 (just in case her relationship with her boyfriend moves forward).

Her grades are obviously disappointing -- to her, I'm sure, as well as you. If she can avoid telling her dad, that might be best, if he will respond in a harmful way. If she must tell him, she might want to work on her wording first and admit that she wishes she had done better, and that is one of the reasons that she is going to take a break from college for a bit.

Stopping college may seem like a terrible option to her. You can be her support person and make sure she knows that plenty of people pursue college at older ages, and that it will all turn out well in the end, even if it takes her longer. She will grow in maturity and determination by making her own way.

[bolt.]

For me, I wouldn't be trying to manage or mediate my adult child's relationship with her father. If she asks questions about him, "You should talk to him about that. (Or not.)" -- If he asks questions about her, "You should talk to her about it."

And, for the record, I wouldn't be living peaceably with a spouse who was capable of literally "despising" our child. Maybe you were exaggerating that, or just saying that she fears he might, but you know he wouldn't... but if it's true, that would lead me down some very serious paths.

I'm also concerned as to why you can't be in favour of spending family funds on a kid's college costs, even if he's against it. There must be some way to negotiate that? Surely he doesn't just unilaterally decide spending for all of you?

Anyhow, for advice: 1. I'd walk my child through getting a student loan in her own name and support her registration process at a school she is interested in; 2. I'd remind her that no matter what her dad says/does/thinks, that she is always the light of my life, and I don't think those things about her; 3. I'd help her move out; and 4. I'd be watching for "red flag" behaviour from my spouse through the process.

I wouldn't ask his permission or his opinions. If there are things he doesn't want to do, he can 'not do them' himself. He can't make you 'not do them'. You are two people, not one person (unity in marriage means a lot of things, but not that you unite into one human, having one personality, or one will). The redundancy is built into the system so that most offspring have two parents, *so that* if one of them is letting them down, the other one can continue to uphold them.

Also: Therapy. For both you and her. If it's at all attainable.

Edited May 31, 2023 by bolt.

[cave canem]

2 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

I would encourage her to get EMT training, one semester for basic and a great basis for

I agree with the value of EMT training for an aspiring healthcare worker. 

Achieving certification is a helpful ego boost for a floundering student. It can take a whole semester, but I have also seen three-week intensives.  Classes aren't usually free, but much cheaper than college.  Some ambulance companies here provide the class for free if you commit to work at the company.

On-the-job EMT experience helps confirm that patient care is rewarding or give the student food for thought concerning alternative career paths. It's great evidence of responsibility and competence for future school applications in the face of poor previous academic performance.  The EMT credential also makes the student employable in hospital ERs.

The money isn't great, but, as far as I can tell, there's no shortage of hours available.

I am sorry for the hurt you two are going through.  The money situation is appalling--NOT healthy.

[Carol in Cal.]

EMT work is tough emotionally, though.  Is she up for that?

I mean, she could maybe get an X ray technician certification and have a more predictable and less intense job, and still have lots of opportunities.

[SKL]

TBH I don't think that doubting whether college is right after a failing transcript equals being a terrible parent.  I think I'm a decent person, but if my kid got straight Fs in a semester at cc, I would take a lot of convincing to invest in a more expensive college path.

I agree that it's pretty concerning that she's afraid of her dad (and mom seems a little afraid too).  But the question of college finance is separate.  I don't like how some comments seem to be equating the college money with parental love or responsibility.  It may benefit the family more to keep that money for future use.

[Faith-manor]

Just now, Carol in Cal. said:

EMT work is tough emotionally, though.  Is she up for that?

I mean, she could maybe get an X ray technician certification and have a more predictable and less intense job, and still have lots of opportunities.

Well, if she isn't up to EMT basic, she probably needs to avoid several areas of nursing including E.R. work. The EMT+ folks, full paramedics, do a lot worse patient care than then the basics. BSRN work is pretty darn tough. I know a lot of CNA's who thought they couldn't manage EMT work but could manage nursing, went to college for nursing, and found out that was more than they could handle emotionally. So if she can't handle EMT basic which in Michigan at least means they are not working on ALS rigs or if they are, only driving while two paramedics do the patient care, she really can't handle BSRN work. Just think of what the hospital staffs dealt with during covid. It was like a war zone. Beaumont hospital here in Michigan had body bags stacked to the ceilings in multiple waiting rooms. 

[BusyMom5]

Is college her dream,  or yours?  Does she see it as necessary for the life she wants?  Obviously she hasn't put much effort into her latest round of classes- you need to know why, and so does she. Online format can be part of it, but all Fs- that sounds like she didn't even try.  She would be on a minimum of Academic probation,  and possibly a suspension for a semester or even a year at all the colleges I know about.  

All the other posters are focusing on the husband as the root of the problem,  but I'm wondering why the daughter isn't willing to take charge of her own life.  They DID pay for college!  The first year at a University, where she earned some credits, then wanted to come home despite loosing a scholarship.  This second year at a CC- where she withdrew from classes in the fall (paid for) and to re-enroll in the spring, which she failed (also paid for).  If this were our kid, I can absolutely see the husband's point of not continuing to pay for college when kid has demonstrated they are not performing.  I would want my kid to have skin in the game- she pays for college class and you reimburse after she passes.  I would not pay for another semester at any college until we had an agreement and she had worked for a year to save money for her classes.  

From what you've said, I think your DD sounds a bit spoiled- she needs to have some life experience before continuing college.  I would encourage her to get a job in a related area to what she wants to do.  If that's nursing, get a support position in a nursing home or hospital.  Has she had a job or paid for anything?

 

 

[Scarlett]

2 minutes ago, BusyMom5 said:

Is college her dream,  or yours?  Does she see it as necessary for the life she wants?  Obviously she hasn't put much effort into her latest round of classes- you need to know why, and so does she. Online format can be part of it, but all Fs- that sounds like she didn't even try.  She would be on a minimum of Academic probation,  and possibly a suspension for a semester or even a year at all the colleges I know about.  

All the other posters are focusing on the husband as the root of the problem,  but I'm wondering why the daughter isn't willing to take charge of her own life.  They DID pay for college!  The first year at a University, where she earned some credits, then wanted to come home despite loosing a scholarship.  This second year at a CC- where she withdrew from classes in the fall (paid for) and to re-enroll in the spring, which she failed (also paid for).  If this were our kid, I can absolutely see the husband's point of not continuing to pay for college when kid has demonstrated they are not performing.  I would want my kid to have skin in the game- she pays for college class and you reimburse after she passes.  I would not pay for another semester at any college until we had an agreement and she had worked for a year to save money for her classes.  

From what you've said, I think your DD sounds a bit spoiled- she needs to have some life experience before continuing college.  I would encourage her to get a job in a related area to what she wants to do.  If that's nursing, get a support position in a nursing home or hospital.  Has she had a job or paid for anything?

 

 

Agree.  There is a lot going on here, and now is not the time to focus on the husband. 
 

Daughter needs to go to work…..going to Europe is fine, but she needs to fund it. Maybe something closer to home would be better so she can get on her feet. 

And she needs to own her relationship with her father, even if it is painful. 

[Clarita]

10 minutes ago, BusyMom5 said:

All the other posters are focusing on the husband as the root of the problem,  but I'm wondering why the daughter isn't willing to take charge of her own life.  They DID pay for college!  The first year at a University, where she earned some credits, then wanted to come home despite loosing a scholarship.  This second year at a CC- where she withdrew from classes in the fall (paid for) and to re-enroll in the spring, which she failed (also paid for).  If this were our kid, I can absolutely see the husband's point of not continuing to pay for college when kid has demonstrated they are not performing.  I would want my kid to have skin in the game- she pays for college class and you reimburse after she passes.  I would not pay for another semester at any college until we had an agreement and she had worked for a year to save money for her classes.  

From how I read it, I'm not sure the daughter knows how to take charge of her own life. I think the husband is the root of the problem. It's easy for people with non-abusive dynamics is our lives to say "Just do xyz" but with abuse there is a whole other emotional "stuck" dynamic that happens with the victims. Otherwise how do abusers ever get people to stay with them? 

Although, the answer is the same, the best thing for your daughter is to drop your husband like a hot potato and stop needing things from him. That road isn't easy but she needs to cut him out of her life and see that she can live without him (and his money). 

[Starr]

That's rough. Sending you hugs.

[maize]

4 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

 On top of that, she can go in as a freshman. She can't transfer the failed classes anyway, and after four years, doesn't even need to provide a transcript of them to the university since she will apply as a freshman. It will be a clean start.

I don't think the bolded is true? College applications usually require that all prior college transcripts be submitted, no matter how long ago they were.

Edited May 31, 2023 by maize

[Halftime Hope]

30 minutes ago, maize said:

I don't think the bolded is true? College applications usually require that all prior college transcripts be submitted, no matter how long ago they were.

This is true in my geographical area, as well. However, many colleges are willing to overlook that when some time has elapsed.

[QueenCat]

4 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

There isn't anything wrong with going to school later. On top of that, she can go in as a freshman. She can't transfer the failed classes anyway, and after four years, doesn't even need to provide a transcript of them to the university since she will apply as a freshman. It will be a clean start.

 

Hmmm... not where I went. I did three years right out of high school and dropped out. When I went back TWENTY years later, I had to have transcripts sent to all of the schools I applied to. Much of what I had done when I was younger actually still counted (although, I was in a different situation in that I had decent grades and no fails). 

[QueenCat]

4 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

I urge both of you to get into counseling. It isn't "his money". It is marital property and just because your job as a wife and mother doesn't come with a paycheck, that doesn't make you lesser than him. You have as much right to a say in the household spending as he does. He is committing financial abuse to you, and frankly, I suspect that if you saw a professional therapist, you would recognize emotional abuse as well.

Let your daughter go to Europe for the summer as a volunteer. It will be good for her to exercise some independence. Tell your husband to stick it where the sun doesn't shine. She is 20. Not even a teen anymore. Seriously, he does NOT get to micromanage her life. That isn't even legal much less moral.

I am very sorry for the circumstances in which you find yourself. Very tough! I am also very sorry that the admin of the christian group responded in a way that is actually quite unchristian. Done listen to that person. You are not a bad parent. Your daughter just needs some different experiences and to be out from under her controlling father in order to develop her own skill set, think for herself, figure out what she wants to do, set goals, and then work towards achieving them.

Yes to all of this. These are critical points. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

41 minutes ago, maize said:

I don't think the bolded is true? College applications usually require that all prior college transcripts be submitted, no matter how long ago they were.

and there is a clearinghouse that lists everyplace you went.  I applied somewhere a few years ago and did not list the one semester at a community college where I withdrew halfway through.  They still found it and wouldn’t accept me without that transcript.

I have no idea where the OP is, but nursing school here is so competitive that a semester of failing grades without a significant medical reason would probably be an automatic rejection. 

[Arcadia]

1 hour ago, BusyMom5 said:

All the other posters are focusing on the husband as the root of the problem,  but I'm wondering why the daughter isn't willing to take charge of her own life.  They DID pay for college!  The first year at a University, where she earned some credits, then wanted to come home despite loosing a scholarship.  This second year at a CC- where she withdrew from classes in the fall (paid for) and to re-enroll in the spring, which she failed (also paid for).  If this were our kid, I can absolutely see the husband's point of not continuing to pay for college when kid has demonstrated they are not performing.  I would want my kid to have skin in the game- she pays for college class and you reimburse after she passes.  I would not pay for another semester at any college until we had an agreement and she had worked for a year to save money for her classes.  

A male cousin was “burn out” by academics even though he is smart. His parents refused to continue paying when he was flunking out of community college classes. He basically needed a few years break from academics before going to college part time when he was ready. His parents did help pay then. My DS18 did not take any classes for two quarters last year because he needed the break from for credit classes. My husband is very penny pinching, maybe less so than OP’s husband. Still, he has a limit of less than $50k per year per kid for college unless there is something making paying more worth it, for example a college with better support for DS17. 
 

I have relatives, including my dad, with anger management issues. My non confrontational relatives would have let the “braver” ones deal with the “blow up”. When I didn’t have all As, my dad would comment that for a book smart kid, I didn’t put in enough effort. That doesn’t mean my dad look down on me, though he was definitely feeling frustrated. 

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, maize said:

I don't think the bolded is true? College applications usually require that all prior college transcripts be submitted, no matter how long ago they were.

Okay, ours doesn't. But states are different. In ours, credits expire quickly when drops out of college. So they don't count. But again, every state is different. My bad.

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, Clarita said:

From how I read it, I'm not sure the daughter knows how to take charge of her own life. I think the husband is the root of the problem. It's easy for people with non-abusive dynamics is our lives to say "Just do xyz" but with abuse there is a whole other emotional "stuck" dynamic that happens with the victims. Otherwise how do abusers ever get people to stay with them? 

Although, the answer is the same, the best thing for your daughter is to drop your husband like a hot potato and stop needing things from him. That road isn't easy but she needs to cut him out of her life and see that she can live without him (and his money). 

This.

And then add ADHD into the mix, and IMO advice to just tell her to suck it up and take charge of her life, however well-intentioned, ignores the emotional and cognitive issues this kid is dealing with. In my experience, people who advocate for a sink-or-swim approach usually had that experience themselves as young adults and survived it just fine, so they don't realize how many kids really do need the extended support and will just sink without it. I don't think it's fair to assume that a student with ADHD and an emotionally abusive father, who is struggling in college, is just lazy or spoiled. She obviously needs some scaffolding for the ADHD and therapy to help her deal with the abuse, and I don't see how telling her to just go figure life out on her own is going to be helpful.

I think the job in Europe sounds like a great idea (assuming it's a real thing), and agree with the suggestions to take some time off and get a job, preferably something related to healthcare, and then see where things stand in another year or so. And I think both the OP and DD need to get into therapy ASAP, because the family dynamic is not healthy at all.

[cintinative]

To be clear, when I say that the husband sounds like a textbook manipulator, that is NOT saying I think that this family should pay for college for a student that has just failed out. What I AM saying is that there are likely some things going on in this household that have impacted both this poster and her daughter and those need to be addressed. We are only seeing the top of the iceberg so to speak. I am hearing fear in this poster's voice when she talks about bringing things to her husband.

 

I agree that getting daughter away from the dad and financially independent is likely to be the most healthy scenario for this family. But that is just the beginning of moving toward healthy relationships, I suspect.

Edited May 31, 2023 by cintinative

[Clemsondana]

Under these circumstance, I'd likely be hesitant to continue to spend money on college, too.  I know that there were challenges at each school, but there are always going to be challenges - this isn't a case of one poor grade due to a messed up assignment.  I think that a break from school, coupled with independence, would probably be a huge help.  Much of the issue could be due to the dad's control issues, but I think that the best path forward is to get some successes - a certification, a job, an apartment or sublet room, and some autonomy would give her some space.  There is unlikely to be a direct path to nursing with those grades, but there are many other health care fields - EMT, radiology tech, phlebotomist - that could be starting points.  I agree that she's unlikely to know how to make this happen, and mom scaffolding - looking for programs, helping her to sign up, looking for a sublet, etc - needs to happen.  If mom can't get $, she might be able to help daughter find a regular job to help fund things while working out how to do a certification in something medical.  

Meanwhile, the interactions with dad are not good.  Feeling like a parent would be angry or disappointed or frustrated is normal - parents experience all of those things - and it's natural enough to dread having those conversations. Feeling like they would despise the child, and actually fearing the parent, is not.  Counseling seems like a good idea for anybody in that situation.  

Edited May 31, 2023 by Clemsondana

[Melissa Louise]

7 hours ago, maize said:

Your husband is abusive.

Money within a marriage is shared money,  legally and ethically. Controlling it the way he does is abusive. The way your daughter and you both fear telling him about her grades indicates you expect him to react in an emotionally abusive way.

I am so sorry--and this is coming from a place of empathy through some lived experiences of my own. My husband suffers from mental illness and has often been verbally and emotionally abusive over the years. He would likely have been controlling as well as control is often a way of coping with anxiety, but I've been able to pretty consistently stand up to those tendencies. I've moved heaven and earth to help him get and maintain psychiatric treatment and that has helped, but it's still been a difficult marriage and a difficult environment for my kids to grow up in.

Which brings me to my recommendation: I'd be inclined to encourage your daughter to go volunteer at the youth hostel in Europe, if that is a genuine opportunity (definitely vet it, talk to people who have done it). My oldest is 19 and currently doing a gap year in Germany. She's working with a therapist dealing with some mental health issues of her own including PTSD symptoms from growing up with an unstable, emotionally volatile parent. The first time she told her therapist about her issues with her dad he told her that moving 6000 miles away was probably the best thing she could do. I'm inclined to agree with that. Germany is temporary, but it's a chance to get completely out from under his roof and influence and start figuring out who she is without stressing over him and his volatility and reactions.

I started typing but Maize said it better and more gently.

This.

And counseling for you, if you have access to funds, which I understand you may not.

Edited May 31, 2023 by Melissa Louise

[73349]

Another option your DD can look into is Americorps/FEMAcorps.

She's old enough to do what she chooses, and I would encourage her to pick something that doesn't require money from him and that gets her away from home.

[Amethyst]

10 hours ago, Penny_P said:

she's been looking into volunteering at a hostel in Europe this summer.

I’m terribly sorry for the stress you are under right now, but THIS would certainly NOT be my choice for your dd. Who would pay for this vacation to Europe?? If she is not going to college, she should be working. Real work with a paycheck. Not a 20 year old’s dream of “living elsewhere will solve all my problems!” 

[Rosie_0801]

One should not go to counselling with a narcissistic abuser. 

 

[Arcadia]

18 minutes ago, Amethyst said:

I’m terribly sorry for the stress you are under right now, but THIS would certainly NOT be my choice for your dd. Who would pay for this vacation to Europe?? If she is not going to college, she should be working. Real work with a paycheck. Not a 20 year old’s dream of “living elsewhere will solve all my problems!” 

My friend paid for her own airfare out of her savings and the volunteer work provided room and board. That was many years ago though. 

[Corraleno]

8 minutes ago, Amethyst said:

I’m terribly sorry for the stress you are under right now, but THIS would certainly NOT be my choice for your dd. Who would pay for this vacation to Europe?? If she is not going to college, she should be working. Real work with a paycheck. Not a 20 year old’s dream of “living elsewhere will solve all my problems!” 

That seems unnecessarily harsh. There's nothing in the OP that suggests the DD thinks going away for the summer will "solve all her problems" — but at least it will get her away from the narcissistic, controlling father that she seems frightened of. Continuing to live under his thumb, in his house, which she's desperate to get away from, while working at a job she may have no interest in, is likely to make her feel even more depressed. It's really difficult to summon up the energy and motivation to change your life when you're depressed.

IMO, having a genuine break, far far away from the dysfunctional dynamic at home, doing something that would be really interesting and relaxing for her, could do wonders for her mental health. And maybe it would give her more clarity about just how messed up the situation is at home, and help motivate her to do whatever she needs to do to get out when she comes back at the end of the summer.

[Happy2BaMom]

4 hours ago, cintinative said:

What I AM saying is that there are likely some things going on in this household that have impacted both this poster and her daughter and those need to be addressed. We are only seeing the top of the iceberg so to speak.

 

This. What is going on with the daughter is (in large part) due to long-standing family dynamics. There is no straightforward solution to the elephant(s) that set up housekeeping in the room(s) decades ago. However, I agree with others that getting daughter out & away (the further & farther the better for her, ideally in a somewhat structured way, as mentioned elsewhere). Hopefully, she will then begin to find her way toward more conscious choices.

OP, I've recommended the book "The Dance of Intimacy: A Woman's Guide to Courageous Acts of Change in Key Relationships" before (by Harriet Lerner;  "The Dance of Anger" is also excellent) and I'll recommend it to you. It's 30+ years old, but that book for me really helped me to start to see - & navigate - the *patterns* that dictate unhealthy familial dynamics, and how, so much of the time when we think we're doing something different, we're actually just reinforcing the existing unhealthy power dynamics. I'm sure there are many other excellent books, but this might be a good place for both you (& your daughter) to start. Books are not a substitute for therapy by any means, but self-education can help in the meantime while you are (hopefully) getting therapy arranged.

[Shoeless]

Is there a relative or close friend she can stay with this summer and beyond?

There's a lot of your daughter's story that resonates with me. I understand her wanting to run away from all of this. I ended up joining the military to get away. It was the right decision for me, but obviously not right for everyone. 

I have to admit that going to volunteer in Europe doesn't sound like a great plan. Getting out from under dad's thumb makes sense and is necessary, but Europe? And then what? What happens when the volunteer experience is over? Where does she go? I am not sure that she'll have a transformative experience this summer that will make her able to stand up to her controlling and possibly narcissistic father. 

[SKL]

I'm not so sure an international gap year is such a good idea, given that this young lady decided 2 hours away was too far and chose to give up her scholarship to come back home.  At least some serious soul searching should be done before signing up for something so remote.  Or, it might make sense to go with a friend rather than a bunch of strangers.

(I would assume the costs of living would be gratis or very affordable for a volunteer opportunity.)

I don't know this young lady well enough to make detailed recommendations, but I think I'd guide her toward a serious job, perhaps some part-time specialized training, and planning/saving for an independent apartment.  I don't know that I'd recommend the apartment be very far away ... just far enough so that Dad won't think he has anything to say about her daily choices.

[TechWife]

10 hours ago, ScoutTN said:

Yes. Pay the extra for expedited. 

Or get the ticket and go in person to a  passport center office. If she goes  within 14 days of  her travel date, they will issue her a passport on the spot. She had to have an appointment and may need to travel a bit to get to one - there aren’t many of these centers. She also runs the risk of not being able to get an appointment in time, so she should take that into consideration when buying the ticket - she may need one where she can change the travel date. She also needs to find out if she needs a visa to do the volunteer work. I suspect not, but check to be sure. 

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/get-fast/passport-agencies.html

[TechWife]

8 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

EMT work is tough emotionally, though.  Is she up for that?

I mean, she could maybe get an X ray technician certification and have a more predictable and less intense job, and still have lots of opportunities.

Another option is phlebotomy or lab technician. There are a lot of allied health professions. One of the more predictable ones might suit her better than EMT while she gets her feet under her and gains some confidence and direction for her future. With phlebotomy and radiology tech, she will have patient contact throughout the day. Radiology would have more varied tasks. Lab technician involves working with staff. Pharmacy tech is also another option. Any of these jobs would help her gain experience that would help with nursing school applications.

Along the way she needs to talk to a couple of different nursing programs to find a good fit. Depending on where you live, the admissions may or may not be competitive. Here, there is such a shortage of school slots (and a nursing shortage), that even the community college ASN programs are competitive. The BSN programs are as well. Additionally, don’t count on them nor seeing the transcript for the classes she failed. Most schools will ask for all college transcripts and failing to disclose might be considered falsifying an application. Spending time working will be in her favor when she goes to apply again. 

[Scarlett]

The OP hasn’t come back to this thread, so I hope all is well.  
 

I think the thread is all over the map….how to manage the husband, how to manage the relationship with husband and daughter ….what the daughter should do now. 

There is going to be a very unpleasant conversation…..I think it is inevitable.  Wouldn’t that be the case in most families where a young adult has dropped out and then flunked out?  
 

I don’t think you are terrible parents and yet I can also see where in hind-site this particular young adult living on your dime needed more supervision and guidance and checking in.  
 

Regardless of how her father reacts I would think school is out of the question for now.  That leaves work.  Hopefully your Dh will be open to being supportive while she finds a job and learns to pay her own way in life.  
 

Your daughter isn’t the first to fail at school at age 20 and then go on later to create a good job situation with our without school. 

[Penny_P]

OP here. Thank you all so much for taking the time to thoughtfully respond. I've been through the thread several times. There were warning signs before we were married 23 years ago, but I loved his wonderful mother and he was very charming. Unfortunately, she died 9 years ago. I was raised in a neglectful home. I've mostly been on my own since 18 and parenting adult children is a really foreign concept for me. Dh's attention and passion towards me was unarming, despite the red flags. I feel I've been ankle deep in kiddos for so long, only recently have I had time to breathe and have more introspection. I work twice a week as a nurse... not for money, but for health insurance. Most of my paycheck goes to that. I do most of the house work. I'm really working hard to train the three youngest. DH doesn't do any house work or cooking, except occasionally he'll grill.

My daughter has burned bridges with many family members. Mostly just ignoring them through the years. She can have a prickly personality. But, she can also be a lot of fun. She is currently working for my sister-in-law at her restaurant. My father-in-law wouldn't meet up with her in Europe although they were both not far apart. 

As to the ADD which wasn't diagnosed until high school, she has a lot of trouble multi-tasking. Executive functioning is difficult for her. Also her follow through is often lacking. 

Nursing is a good flexible career. Admittedly I encouraged her in that direction, but the school part is difficult- it may really not be a good fit, even though she says it's what she wants. We should explore other options. 

She backpacked through Europe for three weeks alone after high school mostly on her own dime. She works part time as a server. It pays well, but she seems to spend frivolously, like getting a lot of take out and Uber eats. She almost never eats what I make. She is planning to pay for her London trip herself; however, it seems like most hostels want a longer commitment than a month. She'd get room and board, but not much else. 

[Melissa Louise]

Let her go.

I was very similar to your dd - not in the flunking out, though I did that for a class or two - but in needing to get away from my family, and in dealing with some neurodiverse stuff + trauma.

Leaving to live and work in the UK at 18 a few months after I finished high school saved my life.

The idea of having to stay home with the abusive parent and have all my choices belittled and questioned - horrible.

OK, that's my 2 cents. Feel free to leave it.

I just hear so much negativity about this dd, and honestly, it's a bit heartbreaking.

 

[Shoeless]

1 hour ago, Penny_P said:

My daughter has burned bridges with many family members. Mostly just ignoring them through the years. She can have a prickly personality. But, she can also be a lot of fun. She is currently working for my sister-in-law at her restaurant. My father-in-law wouldn't meet up with her in Europe although they were both not far apart. 

Oof. 

Maybe your daughter's "prickly personality" is because she's been dealing with people like her grandfather and father.  I'm "prickly" around jerky guys, too. 

"Through the years" is an interesting phrase. She's only 20.  How do you burn bridges by age 20? She's so young and it sounds like she's already been given the role of black sheep. 

I've changed my mind. She should go to Europe and stay as long as her visa allows. 

 

[Eos]

17 hours ago, BusyMom5 said:

From what you've said, I think your DD sounds a bit spoiled

She sounds depressed to me.  It sounds like the medication is just taking the edge off, the dynamic with her father would make depression the most appropriate response.

OP, your family dynamic won't allow her to get healthy, it's time for her to be out of your house.  You won't change your husband's ways, but you can help your daughter escape with some money and planning.

While wonderful and necessary, the health care field is where many people with co-dependance issues gravitate to.  This, coupled with her diminished executive function, makes me think this isn't the right field for her at least until she can access some effective therapy.  

Young people I know who aren't heading to college often go WWOOFing - there are plenty of Christian-owned farms in the listings. But beware the ones dominated by a patriarch, that is the dynamic she needs to escape from.  Caring for animals and getting her hands in the dirt could be healing as long as the home life isn't the same pattern as she's leaving, and her and your learned tendency will be to seek out that pattern until you've both had some therapy.

https://europeupclose.com/article/wwoof-your-way-through-europe/

https://wwoofinternational.org/ind/

https://wwoofusa.org/en/  

Not WWOOF but similar is Workaway: https://www.workaway.info/

Christian: https://www.workaway.info/en/host/875234541948

 https://www.workaway.info/en/host/328683165517

 

 

Edited June 1, 2023 by Eos

[Scarlett]

5 hours ago, Penny_P said:

OP here. Thank you all so much for taking the time to thoughtfully respond. I've been through the thread several times. There were warning signs before we were married 23 years ago, but I loved his wonderful mother and he was very charming. Unfortunately, she died 9 years ago. I was raised in a neglectful home. I've mostly been on my own since 18 and parenting adult children is a really foreign concept for me. Dh's attention and passion towards me was unarming, despite the red flags. I feel I've been ankle deep in kiddos for so long, only recently have I had time to breathe and have more introspection. I work twice a week as a nurse... not for money, but for health insurance. Most of my paycheck goes to that. I do most of the house work. I'm really working hard to train the three youngest. DH doesn't do any house work or cooking, except occasionally he'll grill.

My daughter has burned bridges with many family members. Mostly just ignoring them through the years. She can have a prickly personality. But, she can also be a lot of fun. She is currently working for my sister-in-law at her restaurant. My father-in-law wouldn't meet up with her in Europe although they were both not far apart. 

As to the ADD which wasn't diagnosed until high school, she has a lot of trouble multi-tasking. Executive functioning is difficult for her. Also her follow through is often lacking. 

Nursing is a good flexible career. Admittedly I encouraged her in that direction, but the school part is difficult- it may really not be a good fit, even though she says it's what she wants. We should explore other options. 

She backpacked through Europe for three weeks alone after high school mostly on her own dime. She works part time as a server. It pays well, but she seems to spend frivolously, like getting a lot of take out and Uber eats. She almost never eats what I make. She is planning to pay for her London trip herself; however, it seems like most hostels want a longer commitment than a month. She'd get room and board, but not much else. 

Good to know she does work.  I think getting away could definitely help, but you are in a position now to insist she learn some skills to manage her own life.  Perhaps a good portion of her pay goes to you for savings and also she be open and honest about what she is really making so you can help her budget. 
 

Dealing with your husband while you help your child is a different issue.  I know this thread jumped to him being abusive but hopefully he will listen to you enough that he can see she is an individual who may not follow his path and yet she can be ok with loving support.  
 

Happiness on earth isn’t  just for high achievers.