JAWM ...derailed careers etc

[saw]

This is a JAWM please. I have plenty of people who do not AWM and make this known to me. In sum, it's annoying to have had the prospect of a promising career derailed by a divorce and an exh who has never lifted a finger to help with the kids (except tbf to pay support; none of the kids has spent more than a couple of hours at a time with him and that only every few months). This has made homeschooling difficult and restricted my ability to take jobs to those that let me work part time/from home/have no travel so that I can be there for the kids at all times. Now the kids are mostly grown, this in turn means I have a low earning power compared to those around me, which is frustrating, and have not done what I could have done had exh pitched in a bit. No one around me gets this and apparently it's my fault as I shouldn't have adopted kid #4, or or I have nothing to complain about as I never actually had any career prospects at all because women don't have careers anyway. So please JAWM.

[Scarlett]

I do just agree with you.  Divorce is hard.  Very hard. What is the plan now? Aw the kids raised?

[Rosie_0801]

It sucks.

[Shoeless]

I agree with you. ❤️

[saw]

13 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I do just agree with you.  Divorce is hard.  Very hard. What is the plan now? Aw the kids raised?

Thank you. Kids are mostly raised and doing well. Just DS16. I've been trying to start my own business, in my field, and it's tough going. Living closer to family now and struck by how certain (male) family members have not once asked me what I'm doing jobwise/careerwise. When I have tried to say, gee I'm frustrated at how things have gone, and look at X who is successful bc X has a spouse who stays home and lets him be successful, I'm just told I'm wrong etc. A fair bit of emphasis among those around me on money as the sole measure of success, which I don't really agree with (not saying I'll say no to money but I think it's possible to be successful without being wealthy). I need to ignore the negative and keep working on my own business because I think it can work eventually or go back to a regular job and keep this as a side hustle but I feel so very very far behind and so very very frustrated.

[saraha]

Hugs, you have a rough road 

[Melissa Louise]

I agree with you most fervently. 

[Laura Corin]

Very much agree. We have some regrets about how we managed the balance of career development between me and my husband, even though we are still happily married. 

[heartlikealion]

It does suck and I feel for you. 

I was mostly a stay-at-home mom, took on a couple side jobs over the years, had hours jeopardized by a spouse that wouldn’t come home on time or left the car parked down the street at his work, wouldn’t get his shifts changed etc. Divorced and suddenly he can leave work at 3:30 daily and dropped his Sun evening shift. It’s unnerving. I could have benefitted so much from his current schedule back then. Everyone home for dinner, maybe time to use the fitness center, more flexibility to work. 

I’m job hunting now for a raise and retirement benefits. I’m trying to improve my marketability by doing a Udemy course in my field. Do whatever you gotta do. Don’t give up. I’m rooting for you. 

[Ausmumof3]

Yep. No divorce but similar position except of course still sharing DH income which is easier than going it alone. I am non super career motivated but wish society valued motherhood more and there was some kind of recognition, both financially and in other ways.

[Carrie12345]

5 hours ago, saw said:

When I have tried to say, gee I'm frustrated at how things have gone, and look at X who is successful bc X has a spouse who stays home and lets him be successful, I'm just told I'm wrong etc

Oh, they’re insane!  
I’m not divorced and I never started a real career, but there is no mistaking the fact that Dh has gotten this far because he has never had to put a single family duty first.  He’s always been able to work late, early, weekends, night before big holidays, when kids or pets are sick, when schools are closed, when daycares don’t operate, when the toilet clogs, when the power goes out, when people are hungry, when someone’s been up all night, when a repair person is scheduled, when appointments are needed, and on and on. And he hops on planes with little notice and no return date.

(That isn’t to say that he never does shuffle things. Just that he usually doesn’t because he has someone else to handle non-work things.)

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

Oh, they’re insane!  
I’m not divorced and I never started a real career, but there is no mistaking the fact that Dh has gotten this far because he has never had to put a single family duty first.  He’s always been able to work late, early, weekends, night before big holidays, when kids or pets are sick, when schools are closed, when daycares don’t operate, when the toilet clogs, when the power goes out, when people are hungry, when someone’s been up all night, when a repair person is scheduled, when appointments are needed, and on and on. And he hops on planes with little notice and no return date.

(That isn’t to say that he never does shuffle things. Just that he usually doesn’t because he has someone else to handle non-work things.)

I feel this post to my bones. 
 

OP, I get it. 

[heartlikealion]

39 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

Oh, they’re insane!  
I’m not divorced and I never started a real career, but there is no mistaking the fact that Dh has gotten this far because he has never had to put a single family duty first.  He’s always been able to work late, early, weekends, night before big holidays, when kids or pets are sick, when schools are closed, when daycares don’t operate, when the toilet clogs, when the power goes out, when people are hungry, when someone’s been up all night, when a repair person is scheduled, when appointments are needed, and on and on. And he hops on planes with little notice and no return date.

(That isn’t to say that he never does shuffle things. Just that he usually doesn’t because he has someone else to handle non-work things.)

Yes! Mom is often the default parent and deals with a lot of mental gymnastics. https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20210518-the-hidden-load-how-thinking-of-everything-holds-mums-back

[fairfarmhand]

I totally agree wi th you.

[elegantlion]

I also totally agree with you. Exdh was too controllling for me to work - subtle little things, like second car not working, etc., ad naseum. Then there are those who get their careers pulled out from them through no fault of their own and have to start over when other people their age are retiring. 

[Innisfree]

I agree with you. Utterly, completely.

[wintermom]

It's really tough, whatever the reason. All the best with your business.

[Toocrazy!!]

I too totally agree with you. I’m sorry you’re in such a touch situation. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

Not divorce—but it’s been difficult watching my husband climb the career ladder while my career seemed to be stagnant, probably because I bounced between part time and very minimal full time work for the last 12 years of child raising.  And the only reason he could is because I was steadfastly at home taking care of things there.

I have had other opportunities arise, but there are still days he goes off to a supervisors meeting or whatever and it stings.

Edited October 31, 2022 by Mrs Tiggywinkle Again

[klmama]

What a rough situation.  Wishing you well as you move forward.  Keep developing your skills, networking, etc.  If you do start applying for other jobs, be sure to include the transferable skills you've honed as a homeschooling parent; ask here for help with that, if needed!  Regardless, whether what you are trying to do now ends up as a full-time job or needs to be a side hustle, you've already earned a strong relationship with your dc, and that's priceless!  

[Faith-manor]

8 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

Very much agree. We have some regrets about how we managed the balance of career development between me and my husband, even though we are still happily married. 

I relate to this. Still glad to be married to dh, and do not regret having children. But if we had it to do all over again, I would have pursued my career harder, longer before the arrival of the first child, then used that money to buy a home in a super good school district and NOT homeschooled. I have zero retirement apart from dh, and the whole pressure of making too much money for our kids to get college financial aid, and not enough to write checks to four years of tuition, room and board a piece, has fallen on his shoulders alone which has been a lot of stress.

OP, I am very sorry. Many, many hugs.

Edited October 31, 2022 by Faith-manor

[Grace Hopper]

7 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Yep. No divorce but similar position except of course still sharing DH income which is easier than going it alone. I am non super career motivated but wish society valued motherhood more and there was some kind of recognition, both financially and in other ways.

I remember decades ago listening to Christian financial counselor Larry Burkett - he was the guy before Dave Ramsey came along. He said that a mother giving up her career opportunity to be home with kids was a 100% tithe. Not that it was a distinct obligation of a woman - as many in that realm would say today - but he genuinely recognized the opportunity cost. 
 

I counsel my daughters and young women in my sphere to always keep at least a toe in the work force and to keep up with current methods in their fields. I’m coming to the conclusion that now, with a finally empty nest, my earning potential with jobs in my former career field is about zero. 

[EKS]

I definitely AWY.

Our society still has a long way to go.  I hope that this next generation is able to figure out the whole work-life balance thing better than we have.

[madteaparty]

You know my year level right? I should feel (and I am!) lucky I was able to go back in, but this is a very complex situation and some days I’m really low about it. And then I compare the salaries  in biglaw now with what a contract attorney would pay (received an email about such gig) and my jaw dropped. It’s unreal. 

and I didn’t have the divorce complication. Sympathy 😘

[madteaparty]

1 hour ago, Grace Hopper said:

 

I counsel my daughters and young women in my sphere to always keep at least a toe in the work force and to keep up with current methods in their fields. I’m coming to the conclusion that now, with a finally empty nest, my earning potential with jobs in my former career field is about zero. 

I kept a toe in and IIRC so did saw but the jobs in our world do not lend themselves well to being present for kids, just even to do normal parenting stuff never mind homeschooling. I’m finding I have to to supplement outside school hours and the idea of reading a book in French, say for 5 min a night is completely overwhelming (along with all the other life stuff that needs done, like food, and cleaning, and running to activities and birthday parties. This is for a kid that’s in school! 

[Grace Hopper]

12 minutes ago, madteaparty said:

I kept a toe in and IIRC so did saw but the jobs in our world do not lend themselves well to being present for kids, just even to do normal parenting stuff never mind homeschooling. I’m finding I have to to supplement outside school hours and the idea of reading a book in French, say for 5 min a night is completely overwhelming (along with all the other life stuff that needs done, like food, and cleaning, and running to activities and birthday parties. This is for a kid that’s in school! 

Totally understand! I do AWY. 

[I talk to the trees]

Nodding, agreeing, and sending you virtual hugs, OP. 

[saw]

Thank you all. This is both helpful (feeling like I'm not alone or crazy!) and slightly discouraging (in that so many others are in a similar type of boat). But ultimately also encouraging so I'm feeling like I will keep going and make this work. As @madteapartyknows I've done work here and there and that's been good. I think rn I'm surrounded by people irl who simply don't get the situation or respect the frustration, and maybe for me, it's key to have the frustration acknowledged so that I can feel encouraged to take next steps.

[Jaybee]

@saw, I hope your new business takes off in ways you (and others) cannot even imagine!

[madteaparty]

1 hour ago, saw said:

Thank you all. This is both helpful (feeling like I'm not alone or crazy!) and slightly discouraging (in that so many others are in a similar type of boat). But ultimately also encouraging so I'm feeling like I will keep going and make this work. As @madteapartyknows I've done work here and there and that's been good. I think rn I'm surrounded by people irl who simply don't get the situation or respect the frustration, and maybe for me, it's key to have the frustration acknowledged so that I can feel encouraged to take next steps.

Well listen. You covered yourself in glory x3 and soon to be x4 so really your life’s work is done to a level that those people  you’re surrounded with cannot imagine (well they can but can’t seem to achieve ;))

on my low days, I remind myself that my job was done, and beautifully, and that this job is akin to a retirement gig, fine to have but I’m not going to get life meaning out of having 20-year olds explain things to me 😉 

[kbutton]

OP, I agree with you.

My mom did work, but my dad tended to be available to help people and to do extra volunteer work at various times. I appreciated that he always acknowledged that he could do so only because my mom kept things going at home. 

14 hours ago, saw said:

When I have tried to say, gee I'm frustrated at how things have gone, and look at X who is successful bc X has a spouse who stays home and lets him be successful, I'm just told I'm wrong etc. A fair bit of emphasis among those around me on money as the sole measure of success, which I don't really agree with (not saying I'll say no to money but I think it's possible to be successful without being wealthy).

I hate that kind of attitude about money, and I really hate it when people don't want to acknowledge what has gone right for them to be in the spot they are in.

Adding to the pile of things that can create a similar situation

• Health issues--both opportunity cost and actual remediation costs
• Non-NT kids--both opportunity cost and actual remediation costs
• The extra money going toward additional schooling for the main breadwinner or extra schooling delaying the breadwinner's career (which can be well worth it financially, but still not be realized except over the long-term)
• NOT BEING NEAR FAMILY (sorry, but this is a huge, huge tax for a lot of people)
• Some combination of the above and probably many more scenarios

If I choose to go back to a career (big IF about whether I even could), I will literally be choosing to never see my husband. There are people in his job who have working spouses, and I think the only way it works for them is that their spouses make enough money to hire help AND they almost always live near family that supports them. 

[Jenny in Florida]

I will agree with you 100% and also echo @Laura Corin. I'm still married to a husband who is nothing but supportive of my efforts to scramble back into some kind of post-homeschooling career. It's still been hard, and I find myself doing a lot of second-guessing about the choices I/we made when our kids were young.

I believe our kids benefitted hugely from having me devoted primarily to mommy-ing, and in most ways, I thrived on it, too. However, when the kids waved goodbye on their way out the door, I found myself with a lot of years left and no foothold in the outside world. I look around now at the women I work with who are younger than I am and/or never quit working and can't help comparing my current situation to theirs. 

It does not make me happy.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Add me to the JAWY chorus. Being derailed is perhaps the greatest source of sadness, depression, anxiety, and angst in my life. No, people don't get it. I don't know how to reconcile it. I feel like anything I do now is... I don't have the words. Lots of emotions but no words.

 

Sigh

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

2 hours ago, kbutton said:

OP, I agree with you.

My mom did work, but my dad tended to be available to help people and to do extra volunteer work at various times. I appreciated that he always acknowledged that he could do so only because my mom kept things going at home. 

I hate that kind of attitude about money, and I really hate it when people don't want to acknowledge what has gone right for them to be in the spot they are in.

Adding to the pile of things that can create a similar situation

• Health issues--both opportunity cost and actual remediation costs
• Non-NT kids--both opportunity cost and actual remediation costs
• The extra money going toward additional schooling for the main breadwinner or extra schooling delaying the breadwinner's career (which can be well worth it financially, but still not be realized except over the long-term)
• NOT BEING NEAR FAMILY (sorry, but this is a huge, huge tax for a lot of people)
• Some combination of the above and probably many more scenarios

If I choose to go back to a career (big IF about whether I even could), I will literally be choosing to never see my husband. There are people in his job who have working spouses, and I think the only way it works for them is that their spouses make enough money to hire help AND they almost always live near family that supports them. 

I am not fan of where we live—I wanted to move south in my 20s.

But we also knew that moving away from family would essentially mean that either we never saw each other due to working opposite shifts OR that one of us wouldn’t work once we had children.  So we stayed and have a huge amount of support and help.  But there is always a cost.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Jenny in Florida said:

I look around now at the women I work with who are younger than I am and/or never quit working and can't help comparing my current situation to theirs.

Yes. As my nieces started families but retained their presence in their professional work (including a speech therapist, a lawyer, an accountant and an owner/operator of greenhouse nurseries), I thought, “Good on them!!” I’m really happy they have kept their place in their careers. 
 

For myself personally, it has taken a turn for the better with my processing through a job with the federal govt. This makes me feel a lot better about all the years I spent growing babies and not a career. But it still seems like a unicorn stroke of luck.
 

Not that I think any young people would listen to me or ask for my advice on the subject, but if they did, I would recommend either never putting a career on hold to raise kids, or at least keep up with your certifications/industry knowledge and rejoin within 7 years or so. I would not recommend SAHM and homeschooling for two-three decades to…really, anyone. The level of disadvantage it *potentially* creates is not ideal. I sometimes wish someone had explained that to me better all those years ago instead of constantly blowing sunshine up my butt about how rewarding it was to be a SAHM and homeschooling mom. I was deep in Dr. Laura land, constantly congratulating myself for being “my kids’ mom”, without ever fully understanding that dr Laura’s gig was unicorny enough to be quite hypocritical. 
 

Anyway…that’s my little soapbox on this subject. 

[bookbard]

I had this conversation about an hour ago with a local woman I know. Not about homeschooling, but just about how the woman so often has to sacrifice her career because men won't step up. The only people I know who have balanced kids and a successful career have been those whose husbands work part-time, and who have extended family (usually her mum) who can child-mind, do appointments etc. It takes the equivalent of a full time person to do those things, whether it is literally one person, or several people doing bits. 

[Jenny in Florida]

14 hours ago, Quill said:

I would not recommend SAHM and homeschooling for two-three decades to…really, anyone. The level of disadvantage it *potentially* creates is not ideal. I sometimes wish someone had explained that to me better all those years ago instead of constantly blowing sunshine up my butt about how rewarding it was to be a SAHM and homeschooling mom.

I'm conflicted. I honestly would not give up my 20-ish SAH/homeschooling years for anything. They were, without a doubt, the most rewarding and important thing I will ever do with my life. (And this is coming from a fully leftist, about-as-far-as-you-can-get-from-Dr. Laura person.) As I often say, I'm not looking back with rose-colored glasses. I do remember all the times I had to lock myself in the bathroom and cry, the times I had my car keys in my hand by the time my husband got home from work and basically said, "They're your kids now" while I ran out to spend an evening alone decompressing at the bookstore or a movie. But, on balance, I loved those years, and I believe me being there for them was immensely valuable for our kids. 

I just wish I had found some way to plan better for re-entry into "the real world." 

[kbutton]

39 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

I'm conflicted. I honestly would not give up my 20-ish SAH/homeschooling years for anything. They were, without a doubt, the most rewarding and important thing I will ever do with my life. (And this is coming from a fully leftist, about-as-far-as-you-can-get-from-Dr. Laura person.) As I often say, I'm not looking back with rose-colored glasses. I do remember all the times I had to lock myself in the bathroom and cry, the times I had my car keys in my hand by the time my husband got home from work and basically said, "They're your kids now" while I ran out to spend an evening alone decompressing at the bookstore or a movie. But, on balance, I loved those years, and I believe me being there for them was immensely valuable for our kids. 

I just wish I had found some way to plan better for re-entry into "the real world." 

Yep! I don't even really long for a career, though I liked 2/3 of my jobs. I would like options for funding college for one kid and having more cushion, especially in years when medical bills approach or equal a year of in state college tuition. I am not above working a less meaningful job, and I don't really want FT work. I just want to earn a decent wage for the hours put into it, and even more than that, to have a reasonable schedule.

[Faith-manor]

Honestly, when I talk to young women these days, the bulk I know are not willing to have children, and the top reasons are that men do not step up for the most part, there is no respect for women for taking on the role of mother, and they put themselves at huge financial peril for becoming mothers since it is nearly impossible to NOT take a major career hit unless independently wealthy enough to afford a full time nanny to do all the mom stuff that inevitably causes them to miss work thus getting on management's hit list for not being the ideal employee. Young men seem to be making these decisions for financial/economic stability reasons as well as global political insecurity, and climate change. But they never express having to worry about their careers or any other major aspirations in life being impacted by parenting. This demonstrates just how incredibly one sided the burden of child rearing is still in the supposedly modern, 2022 America. 

I think whatever generation this is being born at the moment, it is going to be tiny comparatively speaking in the U.S. Not only are Millenials having fewer kids than Gen X, but GEN Z, I predict, even far fewer than M's. This is what a society gets for so profoundly disrespecting women, and then turning a blind eye to the needs of families in order to keep a working slave class so the Elon Musks of the world can keep consolidating more and more wealth.

[NorthernBeth]

I just want to say... sometimes this can be a "the grass is always greener on the other side thing".  I remember the many times I went to work miserable, and heart-broken because I would have given anything to stay home with my son but we literally couldn't afford it.  Tearing myself away from him as he cried for me are some of my worst memories.   I do make good money.  But I am not sure anything can ever make up for the years I lost working and not being a part of his life.  He was very resentful of the time my job took away from my time with him, and truthfully still takes me away from him.    And I can't help but wonder what would be different if I stayed home instead.   Maybe part of this is the middle-age reflection of wondering about the path not chosen.  

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Jenny in Florida said:

I'm conflicted. I honestly would not give up my 20-ish SAH/homeschooling years for anything. They were, without a doubt, the most rewarding and important thing I will ever do with my life. (And this is coming from a fully leftist, about-as-far-as-you-can-get-from-Dr. Laura person.) As I often say, I'm not looking back with rose-colored glasses. I do remember all the times I had to lock myself in the bathroom and cry, the times I had my car keys in my hand by the time my husband got home from work and basically said, "They're your kids now" while I ran out to spend an evening alone decompressing at the bookstore or a movie. But, on balance, I loved those years, and I believe me being there for them was immensely valuable for our kids. 

I just wish I had found some way to plan better for re-entry into "the real world." 

I understand that. And of course none of us knows what was down that untraveled path, so I do try to keep that in mind. 
 

But, on reflection, I wish I had thought more critically about what I was actually giving up by choosing the life I chose for so long. I certainly had no awareness of how skeptically employers look at 50-year-old former homeschool moms. And that’s just for trying to *get* a job at all, never mind that it’s at the pay scale of a twenty-year old with no experience. 
 

In my case, it’s working out. But I think I got lucky about some things and it could have gone quite badly. 
 

I just wish someone had spelled it out for me years ago. I was so happy-go-lucky. Someone should have given me a reality check, I guess. (Not that I would have listened…) 

[regentrude]

I am in a field where even my 4 year SAHM break was career ending (and I was aware of it when I started staying home). I do not know any female scientist who stayed home for several years and then managed to restart a research career and obtain a tenure-track faculty position. (I'm sure exceptions exist; I just don't know any personally). This is not the fault of unsupportive partners - it is simply that after four years away, you don't catch up in an extremely competetive field.

Many of the successful female research scientists I know in my field either have chosen not to have children or have a lot of family support (like live-in grandmothers). I guess it would be easier if they had a spouse who only has an 8-4 job and then goes home, but all the female physics professors I know seem to be married to other scientists with similar career paths.

For myself, I had to re-orient after being an SAHM and ended up in a non-tenured teaching job. I would not be in the pretty good position I am in now if I hadn't continued working part-time while raising and homeschooling my kids. Still, while I am very good at what I am doing, I have no advancement perspectives and have hit the dead end. This isn't anybody's fault. My husband is very supportive and was an involved parent.

We are doing girls a disservice pretending they can have it all at the same time. No, they can't. They have to make choices and set priorities.
They need to chose their spouse wisely, their education wisely, weigh that certain careers means giving up any control over your location, etc. None of this is anybody's fault. It's simply the day having only 24 hours that you can spend only once.

Edited November 1, 2022 by regentrude

[Faith-manor]

26 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I am in a field where even my 4 year SAHM break was career ending (and I was aware of it when I started staying home). I do not know any female scientist who stayed home for several years and then managed to restart a research career and obtain a tenure-track faculty position. (I'm sure exceptions exist; I just don't know any personally). This is not the fault of unsupportive partners - it is simply that after four years away, you don't catch up in an extremely competetive field.

Many of the successful female research scientists I know in my field either have chosen not to have children or have a lot of family support (like live-in grandmothers). I guess it would be easier if they had a spouse who only has an 8-4 job and then goes home, but all the female physics professors I know seem to be married to other scientists with similar career paths.

For myself, I had to re-orient after being an SAHM and ended up in a non-tenured teaching job. I would not be in the pretty good position I am in now if I hadn't continued working part-time while raising and homeschooling my kids. Still, while I am very good at what I am doing, I have no advancement perspectives and have hit the dead end. This isn't anybody's fault. My husband is very supportive and was an involved parent.

We are doing girls a disservice pretending they can have it all at the same time. No, they can't. They have to make choices and set priorities.
They need to chose their spouse wisely, their education wisely, weigh that certain careers means giving up any control over your location, etc. None of this is anybody's fault. It's simply the day having only 24 hours that you can spend only once.

I agree whole heartedly! The "you can have it all" messaging is damaging. The pie in the sky, it will all work out in the end, messaging is a disservice. The Leave it Beaver ideas have to go because reality does not match them. So many women have been crushed, especially those divorced by the primary bread winner of the family, by being sold this snake oil. The number of women know who are facing a horrific future of barely an adequate shelter, barely enough food on the table if not full on food insecurity, facing homelessness in their elder years, is astronomical because they gave up their career building opportunities for the SAHM gig only to be divorced in the mid-forties, early fifties by husbands moving on to greener pastures, and taking all their earning power, the family health insurance, you name it with them. This is exponentially worse now because the house gets sold and split 50/50, but since she had low earning potential, she cannot afford housing in the current market, but he takes his high income with him, his high credit rating, and his half of the proceeds making it possible for him to buy another home, or to rent a decent abode in a decent neighborhood. Even if there are minors and he is paying child support, he is paying a lot less than even half of what it takes for his children to be cared for which means in essence his income goes up, and hers goes down dramatically.

So yes, we need to be very honest with our daughters and our granddaughters about making these choices, and we need to educate our sons and grandsons about the lopsidedness, and teach them to work to make this better. I think there are a lot of countries who do better in this regard. Scandinavian countries come to mind. Iceland, whose female prime minister at one point openly breast fed an infant on the floor of parliament while conducting the affairs of the country, and that was just a perfectly acceptable thing was something that would not happen here. We can make it easier. Never equal because gestation, birth, post partum cannot be distributed to men. But, it doesn't have to be so damn skewed and hard. However, I also think that religiously, there is a determination to see religious, cultural beliefs about women that have to be overcome. It also means an overhaul of the family court system, and I don't see that happening any time soon.

[Melissa Louise]

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

I am in a field where even my 4 year SAHM break was career ending (and I was aware of it when I started staying home). I do not know any female scientist who stayed home for several years and then managed to restart a research career and obtain a tenure-track faculty position. (I'm sure exceptions exist; I just don't know any personally). This is not the fault of unsupportive partners - it is simply that after four years away, you don't catch up in an extremely competetive field.

Many of the successful female research scientists I know in my field either have chosen not to have children or have a lot of family support (like live-in grandmothers). I guess it would be easier if they had a spouse who only has an 8-4 job and then goes home, but all the female physics professors I know seem to be married to other scientists with similar career paths.

For myself, I had to re-orient after being an SAHM and ended up in a non-tenured teaching job. I would not be in the pretty good position I am in now if I hadn't continued working part-time while raising and homeschooling my kids. Still, while I am very good at what I am doing, I have no advancement perspectives and have hit the dead end. This isn't anybody's fault. My husband is very supportive and was an involved parent.

We are doing girls a disservice pretending they can have it all at the same time. No, they can't. They have to make choices and set priorities.
They need to chose their spouse wisely, their education wisely, weigh that certain careers means giving up any control over your location, etc. None of this is anybody's fault. It's simply the day having only 24 hours that you can spend only once.

I agree with this to an extent...it's excellent, pragmatic advice for the real world...but I hate that the onus here is on girls and women to anticipate and adjust for this unequal world.

I'd like to imagine a world in which care is valued -  financially. I'm less concerned about situations where a less preferred, financially secure career is still viable after caring work, than with the huge financial hit caring for others mid to long term imposes.

And for the labour and pay conditions of workers (mostly female) we outsource care to, if we do make those wise, pragmatic real world decisions. 

[regentrude]

16 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I agree with this to an extent...it's excellent, pragmatic advice for the real world...but I hate that the onus here is on girls and women to anticipate and adjust for this unequal world.

But in the scenario I described, a man's decision to stay home for several years would be equally career-ending, if not worse so, because society would not consider this a normal choice. A SAHM with a resume gap for parenting isn't such an outlier, a SAHD raises eyebrows.  (And how many women would want to trade places, let the father stay home and go have a career? According to my experience, very few.)

We should not tell boys they can have it all, either. They, too, need to make choices with respect to spouse, education, career path. If they want to not just beget children, but actually parent them, they have choices to make as well. And they should make them together with their partners, in careful consideration and balance of everybody's needs.
 

Edited November 1, 2022 by regentrude

[Faith-manor]

I agree Melissa! And the other aspect of this is that here in the states, the medical system is built on the notion that there is a bevy of females who following childcare will remain out of the work force to care for elders as well, and this will also not be respected, nor financially reimbursed. Literally, the system assumes females should do all the hardwork of caring for ALL humans, and then be degraded and poverty stricken as their reward. It is a type of very serious oppression that isn't acknowledged here. Is it the same in Australia, or is there a more robust system for caring for the elderly?

[regentrude]

1 minute ago, Faith-manor said:

 Is it the same in Australia, or is there a more robust system for caring for the elderly?

I can't speak to Australia, but in Germany, everybody is enrolled in a mandatory long-term care insurance and has to pay 3.05% of gross income if they have children and 3.4% if they are childless. The employer pays half. The benefits are not sufficient to cover everything, but the existence of the care insurance is an acknowledgment that this is something the family alone is cannot be expected to handle. In practice, most family caregivers are women - for a variety of reasons. One, fewer women used to be employed historically (although in my half of the country, female employment was close to 100%); two, women tend to outlive their husbands and will be their carers and rarely vice-versa

[elegantlion]

7 hours ago, Jenny in Florida said:

I'm conflicted. I honestly would not give up my 20-ish SAH/homeschooling years for anything. They were, without a doubt, the most rewarding and important thing I will ever do with my life. (And this is coming from a fully leftist, about-as-far-as-you-can-get-from-Dr. Laura person.) As I often say, I'm not looking back with rose-colored glasses. I do remember all the times I had to lock myself in the bathroom and cry, the times I had my car keys in my hand by the time my husband got home from work and basically said, "They're your kids now" while I ran out to spend an evening alone decompressing at the bookstore or a movie. But, on balance, I loved those years, and I believe me being there for them was immensely valuable for our kids. 

I just wish I had found some way to plan better for re-entry into "the real world." 

I agree with this. I don't regret being a SAHM. Yet, I had zero opportunity to pursue the only career I was really interested in as a young adult. *I* should have been more assertive about finding ways to create income when ds was younger. At the same time, ex-dh tended to sabotage both my efforts and self-esteem to pursue things. He wanted to present this perfect front to family and friends when in reality we really needed a second income. I was happy to be at home. I'm fortunate now that I am pursuing a goal but it too has its sacrifices which weigh on me. 

[Clarita]

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

We should not tell boys they can have it all, either. They, too, need to make choices with respect to spouse, education, career path. If they want to not just beget children, but actually parent them, they have choices to make as well. And they should make them together with their partners, in careful consideration and balance of everybody's needs.

100% no one can have it all. I wish people were more honest about that for both men and women. Let's just stop doing all we can to pressure people into giving us cute babies. If people want to make that sacrifice great if they don't let them be.

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

2 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

I agree Melissa! And the other aspect of this is that here in the states, the medical system is built on the notion that there is a bevy of females who following childcare will remain out of the work force to care for elders as well, and this will also not be respected, nor financially reimbursed. Literally, the system assumes females should do all the hardwork of caring for ALL humans, and then be degraded and poverty stricken as their reward. It is a type of very serious oppression that isn't acknowledged here. Is it the same in Australia, or is there a more robust system for caring for the elderly?

Aged care here is a shambles. Understaffed, underpaid, over-medicated, abuse and neglect rife.