Picking teams for gym and games venty-venty-vent: good update

[MercyA]

Twice recently I've seen or heard about teachers appointing "Team Captains" for gym class or games. They ask those captains to pick teams, one child or teen at a time. It makes it painfully obvious who is either considered unathletic or is unpopular. Those kids are made to wait, hoping to be picked, until they are the very last ones left. 

It makes my blood boil. I'd like to see this go the way of the dinosaurs. Can't they just count off?

You don't have to JAWM. I'm interested in your thoughts.

This was at co-op today and at youth group. The co-op director asked for feedback and I'm tempted to bring this up. DD was not in the class, but I heard about it.

Edited September 21, 2022 by MercyA

[mommyoffive]

I mean that has been going on forever.  🙂  Or since I was a kid.  Yes I think counting off is somewhat more fair, however lots of times the kids would just move to make sure they were on the right team.

[HomeAgain]

I think it's worth talking to the co-op director about.  Is the discomfort and embarrassment of the students a part of the learning process in games? Sometimes discomfort is valid, but pointing it out makes everyone consider its role and what alternatives there are to avoid it when it's not a necessary part of learning.

[teachermom2834]

I don’t love it and would be open to alternatives but I think some of this is just going to be inherent to group activity. I remember when counting off kids juggling position to get on teams together or to cheat the system. It felt crappy to be on the outside of that when it was being manipulated so that you were not on the team or you were in the “out” group.

So I get the issues and I’m sensitive to it and definitely open to alternatives but I don’t think we can rule make our way out of all the social pain and awkwardness of growing up. I’m willing to try though! I’m not one that thinks those painful things are necessary rites of passage or anything. So I would be happy enough to see alternatives.

*very gently* I think that this activity making your “blood boil” might be an overblown reaction. I have no reason to believe you let on to any young people how much it upset you but it might be be one of those things it would be good to talk about and model ways to deal with and take in stride without getting overly upset. But that’s just my opinion. Sometimes adults getting worked up can make these things worse.

[MercyA]

6 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

*very gently* I think that this activity making your “blood boil” might be an overblown reaction. I have no reason to believe you let on to any young people how much it upset you but it might be be one of those things it would be good to talk about and model ways to deal with and take in stride without getting overly upset. But that’s just my opinion. Sometimes adults getting worked up can make these things worse.

Yes, I agree. My DD knows how I feel about it, but she *does* take it in stride when it happens at youth group, and I am proud of her for that. She says, "Mom, I know I'm not athletic." I'm proud of her for not making it a Big Thing.

It happened to my nephew today who is going through a super rough time already. I don't know how upset he was about it and he doesn't know I'm upset about it. I know it did affect his enjoyment of the class. 

Edited September 13, 2022 by MercyA

[Guest]

They could pull numbers out of a bag for counting off, which would stop kids from jostling around so they are on A or B team. 
 

I hated this so much as a kid. I was one of those last-picked kids and it sucks no matter what. 

[kbutton]

12 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

I mean that has been going on forever.  🙂  Or since I was a kid.  Yes I think counting off is somewhat more fair, however lots of times the kids would just move to make sure they were on the right team.

Lining up by height first can fix that. You can still have team captains, but count off the other students if there is a need to make sure that the strongest two athletes are split up on different teams.

I think choosing teams is fraught and could go by the wayside.

[Loowit]

This is one of my bad childhood memories.  I was always the last one picked for teams.  Not one of the last, the last.  It was pretty devastating as a kid to know you weren't wanted.  I really disliked school as a kid.

It got better by middle school/high school when coaches (school sports) chose teams based on skill rather than peers based on popularity.  And in PE we would line up, no changing places, and the count off was always switched up so we couldn't plan ahead to be with friends.

[teachermom2834]

1 minute ago, Quill said:

They could pull numbers out of a bag for counting off, which would stop kids from jostling around so they are on A or B team. 
 

I hated this so much as a kid. I was one of those last-picked kids and it sucks no matter what. 

Yeah I think it does suck to get picked last no matter what. 
 

I think, in theory, old gym teachers would have the two best athletes be captains and then take turns picking the next best athletes and then they would end up with roughly even teams athletically whereas picking numbers out of a bag doesn’t account for evening out skill levels and you can end up with really lopsided teams. 
 

Not defending the practice. What should happen is that the teachers should probably just pick the teams themselves splitting up talent. Isn’t this what teachers almost always do when assigning academic group teams in classes? Seems the teachers assign even groups by spreading out the smartest kids. Not leaving to the kids to sort out.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

The teacher picks the teams at my kids’ school.  I think that’s probably the most fair way to make sure both teams are roughly equal skill wise.

 

[MercyA]

I did say something to the director about it via email, since she asked for feedback. I wasn't overbearing, but did make the point that it can feel unwelcoming. We'll see what she says.

[happi duck]

1 hour ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

The teacher picks the teams at my kids’ school.  I think that’s probably the most fair way to make sure both teams are roughly equal skill wise.

 

This is great!

The teacher puts in a bit of effort ahead of time and the kids can get on with playing without the potential embarrassment.

Even adults on competition shows hate being picked last!  Often remarks are made about how horrible it is to be picked last.

[Innisfree]

1 hour ago, MercyA said:

I did say something to the director about it via email, since she asked for feedback. I wasn't overbearing, but did make the point that it can feel unwelcoming. We'll see what she says.

I hope she agrees to change the practice. Actually, I’m amazed that it’s still being done; for years now I’ve heard what I thought was general agreement that it’s cruel and unnecessary. As another person who was always picked last, I certainly feel that way.

[Clemsondana]

Our karate school does a mix - sometimes the instructors divide the teams, sometimes they count off after lining up by height, and sometimes the kids pick teams.  What's interesting is that, depending on the game, the same kids aren't always picked first.  In tug-of-war, the heavy kids are picked first, while in dodgeball-like game, the tiny, scrappy kids are the first chosen.  None of the kids seem bothered by it, though.  My kid is one of the more advanced fighters, but says that if boys choose the teams they choose girls last even if they are good.  If it turns into a bulllying situation it can be a problem, but it isn't always, espeically with a group where everybody gets along.  

[Indigo Blue]

I think it’s insensitive and archaic. It’s really not hard to do it in a more arbitrary way. Little kids can feel really bad about themselves when this happens consistently. Just no need for this. 

[Clarita]

My preferred method is coach/director/teacher decides (hope the adult leader is a decent person). Counting off is terrible too because sometimes you end up with unbalanced teams which is also no fun. My son's "PE class" the teacher decides on the teams and pairings. Yes sometimes friends don't get to be with each other, but at the end of the day it's more fun for everyone involved.

[Bootsie]

2 hours ago, kbutton said:

Lining up by height first can fix that. You can still have team captains, but count off the other students if there is a need to make sure that the strongest two athletes are split up on different teams.

I think choosing teams is fraught and could go by the wayside.

Knowing someone who was the shortest boy, he found "lining up by height" a miserable activity.  He would have much rather been picked last than have it pointed out that he was the shortest.  

[chocolate-chip chooky]

2 hours ago, MercyA said:

I did say something to the director about it via email, since she asked for feedback. I wasn't overbearing, but did make the point that it can feel unwelcoming. We'll see what she says.

I think it's great that you gave feedback. And I think it's fantastic that the director is open to feedback.

Here's hoping that your director makes a change to a new process.

[Amethyst]

Ugh. Do people still do this kind of thing??? Not people who are educated about child development, I would hope. Good grief!

 

[bolt.]

I had no idea this was still 'a thing'. I thought it went out with the 70's. I have never experienced it, either as a kid or as an adult.

[Drama Llama]

I don't think this has any place in schools or other kid related organization.

We do this within the family, and it can be somewhat hilarious, but we are all close, and we take steps to protect the kids even there (e.g. either the younger kids pick, or if the adults pick they'll get together and agree that they'll each pick a young kid first).  

[momto3innc]

4 hours ago, kbutton said:

Lining up by height first can fix that. You can still have team captains, but count off the other students if there is a need to make sure that the strongest two athletes are split up on different teams.

I think choosing teams is fraught and could go by the wayside.

In my experience as a teacher, lining up by height is fraught with other problems. You have children that are embarrassed that they are short/tall and this draws greater attention to it. A co-teacher had a parent terribly upset with her about doing this very thing (her son was a very late bloomer and sensitive about his height). 

[Farrar]

Wow. I had no idea you were living in the actual 1980's, @MercyA. Where'd you get your time machine?!?

I cannot believe there are serious human educators who still think this approach to gym class is okay on any level in 2022.

[Harriet Vane]

Honestly, I would go a lot further on this one than saying it's "unwelcoming." I was that kid who was always picked last. It was really hard. That idiotic system makes the first 2-3 picks feel great and everyone else hates it. Teams should be random or they should be specifically assigned by an adult who is intentional in mixing up ability levels. Sheesh.

[Teaching3bears]

It was a good day when I was picked second-last instead of last.  Kids should not have to experience this.

[Scarlett]

It is probably one of the reasons I homeschooled my son and one of the reasons I dislike competitive sports.  
 

I honestly don’t remember being picked last but I do remember the fear.  And I remember the pit in my stomach for the young girl who was never wanted.  My best friend and I would always pick her if we were captains.  Ugh, this whole topic is bringing up so many bad memories and feelings. 

I am glad you spoke up. 

[MercyA]

8 hours ago, Harriet Vane said:

Honestly, I would go a lot further on this one than saying it's "unwelcoming." I was that kid who was always picked last. It was really hard. That idiotic system makes the first 2-3 picks feel great and everyone else hates it. Teams should be random or they should be specifically assigned by an adult who is intentional in mixing up ability levels. Sheesh.

I did. I also said "...This does tend to make it painfully obvious who is considered unathletic or unpopular or maybe just new."

I suggested counting off or drawing numbers from a bag as alternatives.

I would have liked to say it was cruel, archaic, and completely unnecessary, but thought that would be counterproductive.

I'm so sorry that you and so many others here were hurt by this kind of thing in the past.I don't know why anyone would think this is okay.

Edited September 14, 2022 by MercyA

[Tanaqui]

Yeah, there's no reason for this. Either the teams need to be arbitrarily chosen by some non-gameable system - like picking colored tags out of a hat, all the reds go here and all the yellows there - or the adults need to sort the teams in advance to make them evenly balanced.  This is not difficult!

[SKL]

I thought this had ended a long time ago.  Maybe someone found a dinosaur egg and hatched it.

If it's not too difficult, you might try gently nudging the group about this.  Maybe send out a "best practices" article on the subject with a friendly note like "I found this interesting - worth a read."

[vonfirmath]

15 hours ago, teachermom2834 said:

Not defending the practice. What should happen is that the teachers should probably just pick the teams themselves splitting up talent. Isn’t this what teachers almost always do when assigning academic group teams in classes? Seems the teachers assign even groups by spreading out the smartest kids. Not leaving to the kids to sort out.

Actually my experience of groups in school was that the kids chose their own groups for who they wanted to work with.

About the only time groups were chosen for you was reading -- because the teacher assigned groups based on the reading level of the kids so she could assign books to match their reading level.

 

I was always the kid picked last in gym and I didn't care. I knew I was not athletic. My strengths lay elsewhere.

 

Edited September 14, 2022 by vonfirmath

[Clemsondana]

I'll add a few other thoughts about this.  I think that frequency matters.  If teams are chosen daily (like in school) and the same kids are always picked last, it can be really upsetting.  If activities in which kids pick teams happen every few months, it's not as likely to be horribly upsetting because it's rare.  It also matters whether the group is close.  I think my kids participate in a couple of different activities in which the kids sometimes choose teams.  It's not daily, or even weekly.  It's also something of a joke among the kids - like, they might deliberately pick a best buddy last to be silly, or the kids joke about being first for one thing but last for another.  There is no real upsettedness about any of it.  I think back to when I was in school, and for some kids who knew that they struggled academically, seeing success in another area like PE was a good thing, and I was fine with knowing that I was good at academics but not likely to be picked first for a relay because, well, I knew I wasn't the fastest kid.  I might be picked early for kickball, though, because I was a good 'pitcher'.  

I have my own issues with adult-chosen groups.  When an organization uses different methods every time (like our karate school) or does something random, then it's fine. But...my experience of school was that I was constantly paired with struggling kids.  In class, I was always seated beside kids with academic or behavior struggles and explicitly told to help them.  In groups, I was generally put with multiple struggling kids so that I could organize and lead them.  I was sometimes paired with kids who didn't fit in because I would be kind.  This was in elementary, starting in first grade.  If they are just dividiing a large group into 2 teams, this isn't an issue, but if they are making multiple smaller groups, then I can see this being relavent.  I'm sure that the adults were solving one problem, but they were solving it by frequently putting the burden of helping on a 7 year old.  I took it in stride at the time, but it really wasn't an appropriate thing to do, day in and day out.  Now that I'm writing this, it's sort of like the picking teams - getting picked last a couple of times a year is probably not an issue, just like being asked to help a couple of times a year is not a problem.  But, putting a system in place where a kid experiences the same negative thing over and over is not OK, no matter what the system is.  Interestingly, my kids have never complained about kid-chosen teams even if they are chosen near the end, but one of mine has gotten upset about being separated from friends in adult-chosen groups, because they perceive it as an adult being mean deliberately - it's a bigger deal when there is a group of 3 friends and one is in one group and the other 2 are together.  

Edited September 14, 2022 by Clemsondana

[skimomma]

I hate this too!

My dd was in a group for years that was coached by people sensitive to this.  They chose arbitrary things to line up to.....middle name alphabetical order, odd versus even birthdates (the day, not the age), birth months, dog lover vs. cat lover, etc.....  And, yes, sometimes age as the group spanned ages 12-18 and sometimes having a varied mix of age was important to make the game work well.  In this day, there are enough way for kids to be bullied.  Why make it an adult-sanctioned event?

[wintermom]

It's a time waste and an uncomfortable position to put the students in - both those choosing and those waiting to be chosen. Obviously (at least in my mind), the leader doing this lacks some basic pedagogical knowledge (and/or is simply lazy and is using this method as a way to use up time they don't know how to fill in a more useful way). This would NEVER fly in a business where adults are paying for every minute of their time in an activity (such as martial arts classes). 

There are many ways to quickly and effectively divide people into groups. This leader can look up alternative online or ask trained PE professionals. 

[Clemsondana]

3 minutes ago, wintermom said:

It's a time waste and an uncomfortable position to put the students in - both those choosing and those waiting to be chosen. Obviously (at least in my mind), the leader doing this lacks some basic pedagogical knowledge (and/or is simply lazy and is using this method as a way to use up time they don't know how to fill in a more useful way). This would NEVER fly in a business where adults are paying for every minute of their time in an activity (such as martial arts classes). 

There are many ways to quickly and effectively divide people into groups. This leader can look up alternative online or ask trained PE professionals. 

I'm not sure where the time wasting idea comes from.  In the situations where my kids do this, the captains are expected to have the name ready to say. The teams are literally divided as fast as the names can be said, which is as fast as the adult could divide them by calling out the names.  Like I've said, this is not a high stress thing, so its not like an NFL draft where each person gets minutes to say somebody.  If I remember correctly, if the captain doesn't promptly say a name, the adult leader will. Having watched them divide up several different ways, none of them take more than around 3 minutes.  But, as I've said, my kid has done this in a martial arts class at times and it's never been an issue.  But, there is a lot of competition and also zero tolerance for bullying, so no matter what they do the kids are OK with it.  

[wintermom]

1 minute ago, Clemsondana said:

I'm not sure where the time wasting idea comes from.  In the situations where my kids do this, the captains are expected to have the name ready to say. The teams are literally divided as fast as the names can be said, which is as fast as the adult could divide them by calling out the names.  Like I've said, this is not a high stress thing, so its not like an NFL draft where each person gets minutes to say somebody.  If I remember correctly, if the captain doesn't promptly say a name, the adult leader will. Having watched them divide up several different ways, none of them take more than around 3 minutes.  But, as I've said, my kid has done this in a martial arts class at times and it's never been an issue.  But, there is a lot of competition and also zero tolerance for bullying, so no matter what they do the kids are OK with it.  

In the time it takes the instructor to even name the 2 "captains" the group could be divided up quickly by the instructor.

If learning people's names is the goal of the activity, there are tons of games and activities where everyone can learn everyone's names. 

I've led years of PE classes, led (as a 3rd degree black belt) and participated in years TKD classes, and have a MA in PE and BEd. There is no need for this method of grouping participants, and it's not worth the stress to any of the participants. 

[QueenCat]

I hated this system 45 years ago and hate it today. 

[stephanier.1765]

17 hours ago, Quill said:

They could pull numbers out of a bag for counting off, which would stop kids from jostling around so they are on A or B team. 
 

I hated this so much as a kid. I was one of those last-picked kids and it sucks no matter what. 

Pulling colored rocks out of a bag works for Survivor so I imagine it would work for children as well. Simple and easy. As a child who was either picked first or close to first, I still hate it.

[Bootsie]

44 minutes ago, wintermom said:

It's a time waste and an uncomfortable position to put the students in - both those choosing and those waiting to be chosen. Obviously (at least in my mind), the leader doing this lacks some basic pedagogical knowledge (and/or is simply lazy and is using this method as a way to use up time they don't know how to fill in a more useful way). This would NEVER fly in a business where adults are paying for every minute of their time in an activity (such as martial arts classes). 

There are many ways to quickly and effectively divide people into groups. This leader can look up alternative online or ask trained PE professionals. 

A version of this happens often with paying adults, not necessarily in physical activities, but in college classes.  Does the professor pick teams for projects and study groups or does the professor?  Even when DH taught in the MBA program at an elite, top-ranked business school, the issue came up.  

[wintermom]

1 hour ago, Bootsie said:

A version of this happens often with paying adults, not necessarily in physical activities, but in college classes.  Does the professor pick teams for projects and study groups or does the professor?  Even when DH taught in the MBA program at an elite, top-ranked business school, the issue came up.  

In my recenty graduate classes, for quick discussion we worked with the people/person sitting beside us. No need to select "teams." Who wants to sit through that nonsense when time is limited? 

[Bootsie]

6 minutes ago, wintermom said:

In my recenty graduate classes, for quick discussion we worked with the people/person sitting beside us. No need to select "teams." Who wants to sit through that nonsense when time is limited? 

That works somewhat for quick discussions--I say somewhat because people get paired with someone who isn't doing the classwork or they get paired with their friends who are of like-mind because that is who they are sitting next to.  But for some pedagogical methods (and in some disciplines) teams that are involved are used.  In a course on negotiations, teams might be used.  Teams might be used for a research project.  Teams are often used extensively when teaching by the case method.  

[wintermom]

1 hour ago, Bootsie said:

That works somewhat for quick discussions--I say somewhat because people get paired with someone who isn't doing the classwork or they get paired with their friends who are of like-mind because that is who they are sitting next to.  But for some pedagogical methods (and in some disciplines) teams that are involved are used.  In a course on negotiations, teams might be used.  Teams might be used for a research project.  Teams are often used extensively when teaching by the case method.  

With the MBA academic setting, you're moving pretty far away from the situation in the OP. The only reason I iincluded "adult" in my previous response was that adults can complain about a process they dislike and they will be heard, or they will take their money elsewhere. Youth don't often have that luxury.

For a group of youths forced to pick teams among people they may or may not know for a fun activity, then there should be a very strong reasoning why a teacher would use this method. It certainly wasn't anything promoted in any of my BEd, PE or other pedagogical courses. Rather, this type of process is used as an example of "what not to do to promote self-confidence in physical activity classes."

Youth NEED opportunities to build their confidence and learn to feel welcome and included, especially in physical activities, where skill differences tend to be very visual and obvious. We all do, but youth especially, as their physical and emotional development is changing rapidly. 

Edited September 14, 2022 by wintermom

[historically accurate]

Ugh, this thread is giving me flashbacks of me standing there in my awful gym uniform staring at the ground trying to ignore everyone as the other kids teamed up. It was very rare that I wasn't the very last person chosen. 

[MercyA]

Received this from the co-op director: "Thank you [.] for the feedback. I contacted the gym teachers so they are aware and to ask them to find another method that will help any kids feeling anxious or left out. We want everyone to have fun in there!"

[kiwik]

On 9/14/2022 at 9:47 AM, Loowit said:

This is one of my bad childhood memories.  I was always the last one picked for teams.  Not one of the last, the last.  It was pretty devastating as a kid to know you weren't wanted.  I really disliked school as a kid.

It got better by middle school/high school when coaches (school sports) chose teams based on skill rather than peers based on popularity.  And in PE we would line up, no changing places, and the count off was always switched up so we couldn't plan ahead to be with friends.

Me too.  Looking back I am pretty sure I had dyspraxia - well still do but years of martial arts as a young adult helped a bit.  I was good at academics but no-one would have dreamed of having an academic competition in the first place, let alone publicly picking the teams.

[Drama Llama]

26 minutes ago, kiwik said:

Me too.  Looking back I am pretty sure I had dyspraxia - well still do but years of martial arts as a young adult helped a bit.  I was good at academics but no-one would have dreamed of having an academic competition in the first place, let alone publicly picking the teams.

I wonder if that’s a cultural difference, because certainly my childhood had plenty of spelling bees and science fairs and speed rounds with math facts and lets review for this test by playing jeopardy.  And kids were allowed to choose groups/teams for many of them.

[happypamama]

On 9/14/2022 at 10:00 AM, Clemsondana said:

I'll add a few other thoughts about this.  I think that frequency matters.  If teams are chosen daily (like in school) and the same kids are always picked last, it can be really upsetting.  If activities in which kids pick teams happen every few months, it's not as likely to be horribly upsetting because it's rare.  It also matters whether the group is close.  I think my kids participate in a couple of different activities in which the kids sometimes choose teams.  It's not daily, or even weekly.  It's also something of a joke among the kids - like, they might deliberately pick a best buddy last to be silly, or the kids joke about being first for one thing but last for another.  There is no real upsettedness about any of it.  I think back to when I was in school, and for some kids who knew that they struggled academically, seeing success in another area like PE was a good thing, and I was fine with knowing that I was good at academics but not likely to be picked first for a relay because, well, I knew I wasn't the fastest kid.  I might be picked early for kickball, though, because I was a good 'pitcher'.  

I have my own issues with adult-chosen groups.  When an organization uses different methods every time (like our karate school) or does something random, then it's fine. But...my experience of school was that I was constantly paired with struggling kids.  In class, I was always seated beside kids with academic or behavior struggles and explicitly told to help them.  In groups, I was generally put with multiple struggling kids so that I could organize and lead them.  I was sometimes paired with kids who didn't fit in because I would be kind.  This was in elementary, starting in first grade.  If they are just dividiing a large group into 2 teams, this isn't an issue, but if they are making multiple smaller groups, then I can see this being relavent.  I'm sure that the adults were solving one problem, but they were solving it by frequently putting the burden of helping on a 7 year old.  I took it in stride at the time, but it really wasn't an appropriate thing to do, day in and day out.  Now that I'm writing this, it's sort of like the picking teams - getting picked last a couple of times a year is probably not an issue, just like being asked to help a couple of times a year is not a problem.  But, putting a system in place where a kid experiences the same negative thing over and over is not OK, no matter what the system is.  Interestingly, my kids have never complained about kid-chosen teams even if they are chosen near the end, but one of mine has gotten upset about being separated from friends in adult-chosen groups, because they perceive it as an adult being mean deliberately - it's a bigger deal when there is a group of 3 friends and one is in one group and the other 2 are together.  

Did we go to the same school? Because that sounds exactly like what happened to me over and over. I was tiny, not especially athletic, but also very good at school and a very polite, nice kid. So I often got to be the teacher's helper, or the kid who was asked to help the new kid or pair up with the weird kid that nobody else wanted. Kids only wanted to pick me first or have me on their teams for academic projects. But gym? Heck no. Last or second last every single time. And I get it, because I like to win too, but I have the biggest beef with how they did things. It was fine for them to send me the message that I wasn't good at sports, verbally and non-verbally, throwing everyone in one gym class together -- but had I ever picked on a kid for not being able to spell, I'd have been in deep trouble (not that I would have anyway, because my parents raised me better). And academics were tracked by ability, so that even kids who weren't academically minded were given the opportunity to succeed at their level. Why couldn't gym have been at least sort of like that? I realize they couldn't have four gym levels, but two, maybe? In college, we had so many choices, so athletic kids could take sports classes, and the rest of us could take fitness for life, where we had to find activities that worked for us. So I could get credit for going for a walk, or going hiking in the woods with friends. I feel like gym class could have been so much better if it focused on that sort of thing -- lifelong fitness and finding ways to be active that don't involve competition -- for so many kids. (We don't do team sports as a family. We walk and hike and kayak and swim for fun, and when the kids do anything organized, it's martial arts, where their only competition is themselves.)

 

End rant! I think choosing teams, kids or adults, is terrible, whether you do it by height or by ability. Counting off doesn't work either because kids are sneaky buggers. ABC order and alternating wouldn't really work either because it has the potential to be the same kids on each team every time, and everyone likes to win sometimes. Pulling something out of a bag is a better idea IMO. We also had one co-op teacher who would split kids into teams by asking silly questions like "who had cereal for breakfast?" I think that was more for a specific game where she deliberately wanted a majority and a handful, but the premise could work otherwise too. 

[Bootsie]

On 9/30/2022 at 6:30 AM, Baseballandhockey said:

I wonder if that’s a cultural difference, because certainly my childhood had plenty of spelling bees and science fairs and speed rounds with math facts and lets review for this test by playing jeopardy.  And kids were allowed to choose groups/teams for many of them.

We had a number of spelling and math competitions, also.  I was always one of the last to be picked at athletics, but either the team captain or the the first to be picked when it came to math.  I had one teacher who would have team captailns pick the first few kids on their team and then divide off the rest--so the teams would be fairly well balanced of having strong players and then no one was the "last picked".  I didn't personally like being one of the last chosen for sports--but that wasn't nearly as bad as having your entire team moan when they realized it was your turn at bat.  I did take it as a learning lesson as to how to treat people I would prefer not to have on my math team when I was captain.

[kbutton]

49 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I didn't personally like being one of the last chosen for sports--but that wasn't nearly as bad as having your entire team moan when they realized it was your turn at bat. 

This. Not being picked last doesn't fix the rest of it. 

I had a few splinter skills in one or two sports that sometimes got noticed and saved me from what might've otherwise been borderline bullying (we had a few co-ed sports units, and the boys' gym teacher would encourage the boys to run over the girls in volleyball to keep the ball in play), but I mostly hated PE until we finally got to some sports that were unfamiliar to everyone in the class. Field hockey was new to everybody, and believe it or not, soccer was not a common sport when I was in high school. I am unkind enough to remember being gratified when some of the sporty kids weren't dominating the field and were kind of put out about that, lol! 

[Bootsie]

1 hour ago, kbutton said:

This. Not being picked last doesn't fix the rest of it. 

I had a few splinter skills in one or two sports that sometimes got noticed and saved me from what might've otherwise been borderline bullying (we had a few co-ed sports units, and the boys' gym teacher would encourage the boys to run over the girls in volleyball to keep the ball in play), but I mostly hated PE until we finally got to some sports that were unfamiliar to everyone in the class. Field hockey was new to everybody, and believe it or not, soccer was not a common sport when I was in high school. I am unkind enough to remember being gratified when some of the sporty kids weren't dominating the field and were kind of put out about that, lol! 

When I was in junior high, it was the coach who was the biggest bully--and we had the same teacher for all three years.  She really went beyond verbal bullying to physical assault.  I was a ballet dancer, not an athlete, and she would come up and stand on me feet and call me "twinkle toes".  My dad finally scheduled an appointment with her and she was very surprised to realize I didn't take after him--he had been a high school football coach.  Things went much more smoothly with my younger sisters once they were in her class once she realized our dad could speak her language.  

[historically accurate]

On 9/30/2022 at 6:30 AM, Baseballandhockey said:

I wonder if that’s a cultural difference, because certainly my childhood had plenty of spelling bees and science fairs and speed rounds with math facts and lets review for this test by playing jeopardy.  And kids were allowed to choose groups/teams for many of them.

I grew up in the Midwest US - we never had math facts out loud (we did have written timed tests in 4th grade, but the results for everyone but the kids who completed the entire page, which was the goal, were private). We had 1 spelling bee in 6th grade; other than that, it was a weekly spelling test (written not out loud). I never did a science fair in my entire school career. 

I only recall jeopardy a couple of times, and I'll be honest that I don't recall how teams were chosen. I do remember the 7th grade teacher who threw candy bars at the kids who could answer his questions.