How can we solve our environmental problems within a capitalist framework that encourages buying and discarding?

[Teaching3bears]

Can we even do this?  Are there just some measures that need to be taken ?  I am interested in lots of opinions and ideas on this.

[prairiewindmomma]

It’s a complex problem that I don’t think we have the political will to take on. A few brief ideas:
 

1. We need to move away from eating as much meat as we do, worldwide. It’s an intense use of resources. We should be focusing on using our arable land to grow crops meant for people. We have degraded our soil which no longer holds moisture well. When we have heavy rains due to climate change, the excess fertilizer spills into our waterways and causes algae blooms and oxygen deprived environments. If we had healthier soil and stopped mono cropping our fields would require less fertilizer and they could absorb rain better.

2. We need to eat more locally, and stop some of the craziness of flying perishable food in from around the world. A lot of our global spots where we grow avocados, berries, lettuces are in deserts where water is piped in. The overdraw from the aquifers isn’t sustainable which is why we see places like Lake Powell along the Colorado River running dry. There’s no good reason to be farming cotton in St George, Utah, iykwim.

3. We need to spend more in carbon capture research and acknowledge that a huge chunk of our future energy production is going to be aimed at that if we are smart. (But we aren’t.)

4. We don’t have enough metals to move everyone to electric vehicles. Public transportation needs to become viable in the US. 
 

5. Companies make stuff that people buy. They won’t make products there is no demand for. So, if we want to shift companies we have to shift us…

6. We need to have fewer children. Feeding 8 billion people at 2100 means requires heavy fertilizer usage and healthy soil. See point 1. We are being bad stewards.

7. We need to stop most of our plastic use. Recycling that is largely a myth, and we all likely have micro plastics in our body at this point. (See recent news stories.)

Edited April 30, 2022 by prairiewindmomma

[Clarita]

I try my best to look at the things I buy as not throw away items. So, I spend a lot more on things like jeans and clothes to buy high quality well fitting. I use a local CSA and we bring packaging back to them or leave the packaging there so they can reuse the packaging. 

Shoes like boots and heels can actually be repaired. So, I get the sole/heels repaired and you can maintain the leather to make it last longer. 

I purchased 1/2 steer from a local rancher and actually there is less packaging compared to buying from the grocery store. 

Clothing/toy/books etc. swaps with friends. 

We also have solar panels, battery walls and electric vehicles. Those things though aren't what everyone can do. Honestly, we really got them for our own convenience rather than trying to save the world.

[goldberry]

I had a $400 laser printer that no one would repair.  I was told, those aren't expensive enough to repair, they just expect you to buy a new one. ????  I hate having things that no one will repair anymore.  They basically force you to dump it even if you would choose otherwise.  I would like to see companies selling repair or replacement parts as a normal thing. I don't know that it will ever happen though.

[athena1277]

One thing that would make a big difference is for companies to make things that last longer.  
 

We all have heard stories from older generations about a clothes washer, range, etc. that lasted for 30 years.  Nowadays you are lucky if those things last 10.  

Our electronic devices need to be made to upgrade much longer, instead of buying a new phone, laptop, etc. in stead of having to replace them to get the latest technology.  I know some parts can be recycled, but not all of it, and it isn’t always done.

[TexasProud]

49 minutes ago, athena1277 said:

One thing that would make a big difference is for companies to make things that last longer.  
 

As you said, in a capitalist society, I am not sure how. As i learned at the Broadcast Museum, the first light bulbs lasted a REALLY long time, but they couldn't sell enough to be profitable, so they made them to last less long to sell more of them. That said, I don't think socialism works particularly well, ie Animal Farm. Not sure what the answer is. People are just too selfish and evil at their core ( including myself in that statement) to fix it. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

It’s difficult and the only thing you can control is you. 

Use your money to focus on the products that are lasting or are truly environmentally friendly. (See more below) 

Eating out (particularly take out) and the fancy drink fixation is one of the biggest areas of waste. The pre packed meal plans are terrible too, especially the ones that have individual servings. There are lots of things I don’t do or choices I make simply based on waste alone. If you try to buy close to home, choose less food packaging, and cook at home then you’re reducing a ton of waste and fuel. Bonus if you can grow it at home as well. 
 

Quality over quantity. Reward the companies that make lasting products by buying from them. If I can buy a cheap product that lasts 4 years or a quality one that lasts 8 then I’ll go for the one that lasts longer and even if the cost is more up front, it usually costs less in the end.

No junk plastic dollar store or target $1 style toys. It’s hard when they’re little and they ask for the cute stuff but I’d rather get them lasting things. My question to my kids was “but where will it go when you’re done or it’s broken?” We don’t need to add to the landfill waste. They didn’t fully understand then but they do now and how else do we create long term thinkers when it comes to environmental issues?

Don't be fooled by the terms eco friendly or the green tags. Think. Use your brain. I was looking for a shower liner the other day and I saw tons of plastic liners with the phrase eco or eco friendly. There’s nothing more eco friendly than a cloth liner that you can wash. 
Same with compostable plastic sort of stuff, a lot of it needs a special process that most cities don’t provide. Is there a way to just not? Can we use something paper instead? Starbucks changed their lids to include far more plastic than a straw uses in order to comply with the emotionally driven anti-straw campaign (based on an child’s letter about a sea turtle choking on a straw) and a lot of people still use a straw anyway. Appearances are deceiving sometimes. The end result is far more plastic waste.  
 

Write companies and tell them that it matters to you. When the pandemic happened I ordered from Amazon fresh. The waste was absurd (I’ve heard they’ve gotten better). It was like piles of plastic and waste for a few items. When they asked if I was happy with my order, I voiced that I wouldn’t be placing another for this reason. Speak up. 

[Carol in Cal.]

Buy from local farmers.  Plant an edible garden and use it as much as possible.   Have a few chickens for eggs.

Stop going to stores.  Stop browsing on Amazon.  

Reuse things.

Buy classic, high quality clothes that you are willing to wear for a long time.  Embrace using what you have, maybe in new ways.  

Join your local free stuff groups and divert things from landfills plus save money.

Dress warmer in the house to avoid needing as much heating.  

Figure out what you like to make, and make it.  Then trade it for stuff you don’t like to make.  In our Buy Nothing group, every once in a while someone posts a big vat of soup or chili that they made, and those who ask for portions run over and get them and eat them that night.  Saves a cooking session and also the endless leftovers problem.  I’ve gotten appliances, textiles, and recently a beautiful set of lawyer bookshelves for free there.  I offer my extra stuff all the time, and it’s nice to know that the folks who get it are very happy to have it.  We can post ‘wanted’ requests, too.  

Get used furniture instead of new.  Keep your old cars running.  Ditto appliances.  Buy Speed Queens that last forever.  Cultivate habits of conversation and self study and exercise that are satisfying without being spendy.  

Support sustainable agriculture.   Buy seasonal produce only.  

Teach your kids homesteading skills.  And their friends.  

Edited April 30, 2022 by Carol in Cal.

[Carol in Cal.]

Rise and sleep with the sun to reduce energy and electric lighting usage.

Wear your cell phones and other technology out completely before replacing them.  

Make violence utterly unthinkable, particularly violence against women.  That right there eliminates a great deal of expenditure on protective gear and moves.  For instance, I would take public transit a lot more often if it didn’t land me in places that are dangerous, and considerably more dangerous for women than for men.  So I drive.  So I always need a reliable car.  

Edited April 30, 2022 by Carol in Cal.

[Hilltopmom]

We can’t, I don’t think. Pretty sure we’re screwed, tbh.

[bookbard]

1 minute ago, Hilltopmom said:

We can’t, I don’t think. Pretty sure we’re screwed, tbh.

Yep. There isn't a way for an individual to buy their way out of this. It would take really radical change and it would have to happen fast. I think covid is a good example of what could have happened and what did happen. Covid zero could have happened if all governments had shut every border down right away. It would have been radical and it would've cost a lot of money. It didn't happen - it's going to cost a lot of money over a very long time, let alone the number of deaths. 

Same with climate change. Really radical change twenty years ago would have been cheaper and less deadly than what we're going to face. We didn't have cell phones to throw away back then. Imagine what crap we're going to be throwing away in another 20 years.

[Clarita]

4 hours ago, athena1277 said:

Our electronic devices need to be made to upgrade much longer, instead of buying a new phone, laptop, etc. in stead of having to replace them to get the latest technology.

I don't think much can be done with the phone part. If you get a desktop instead of a laptop/tablet then you can do replacement parts. Of course if you spend some time researching you can build your own desktop. Mobile phones and laptops are hard because the push for putting more in thinner spaces a lot of the things are "glued" together. They sometimes use the case and surrounding metal as heatsink so a lot of the components are attached to each other via thermal compound. 

[Melissa Louise]

25 minutes ago, Hilltopmom said:

We can’t, I don’t think. Pretty sure we’re screwed, tbh.

This.

We're a long way past 'act local'.

You and I as individuals can do very little to prevent change ( because it's already happened/happening + our efforts are marginal). 

What we can do is shift our focus to lobbying for better local and government support during climate disasters. 

We can also lobby for more aid and support to be sent to eg Pacific Islands - places already significantly impacted. 

I'm more interested in adaptation right now, tbh. That's what we should be looking at, and it's fairly urgent. 

 

[DreamerGirl]

 

24 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

We're a long way past 'act local'.

This.

We are way past eat local for instance as people of various ethnicities and therefore various cuisines live all over the world. Food is something that people hold on to when they move to a new place as one of those anchors of familiarity. It was my experience, much as I love to eat around the world, the cuisine of my country of origin will always be the one which I cook at home and it is simply not possible to be local about it.  I cannot always fill my suitcase with the food I want to bring.  So too travel. Much of our travel is also for family around the world and it is thousands of miles one way. And many times we travel in planes that are not always full. 

Clothes. If we want ethnic clothes, again not possible. I could go on and on. The simple truth is much as I try to be responsible in my daily life, one overseas trip will blow the effects of those actions out of the water. 

24 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

You and I as individuals can do very little to prevent change ( because it's already happened/happening + our efforts are marginal). 

What we can do is shift our focus to lobbying for better local and government support during climate disasters. 

We can also lobby for more aid and support to be sent to eg Pacific Islands - places already significantly impacted. 

I'm more interested in adaptation right now, tbh. That's what we should be looking at, and it's fairly urgent. 

 

This.

 

 

[Selkie]

Individuals can make a big difference just by changing the way they eat.

Fun facts:

Each day, a person who eats a vegan diet saves 1,100 gallons of water, 45 pounds of grain, 30 sq ft of forested land, 20 lbs. CO2 equivalent, and one animal's life. (Water Footprint Assessment - University of Twente, the Netherlands)

Not eating a pound of meat saves more water than not showering for six months. (USGS)

If the world reduced meat consumption by 15% (by doing Meatless Mondays), it would have the same impact on greenhouse gas emissions as taking 240 million cars off the road each year. (Meatless Monday Campaign - Johns Hopkins, Columbia, and Syracuse Universities)

 

[Clarita]

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

We're a long way past 'act local'.

You and I as individuals can do very little to prevent change ( because it's already happened/happening + our efforts are marginal). 

My only issue with this type of thinking is sometimes you are given opportunities to make a global difference. You'll miss them if you are continually thinking only someone else can solve/alleviate this problem. 

[Melissa Louise]

39 minutes ago, Clarita said:

My only issue with this type of thinking is sometimes you are given opportunities to make a global difference. You'll miss them if you are continually thinking only someone else can solve/alleviate this problem. 

But only governments/mega corps can. There's nothing I can do to stop climate change. I already don't drive, don't fly, reduce meat and dairy etc....it won't have the slightest impact on the next mega fire or mega flood here. 

I must be missing my opportunities to have a global impact...

[EKS]

I don't think that we can solve any of our environmental problems on an individual level.  The entire system needs to be revamped. 

[Ausmumof3]

Recycling helps as far as resource recovery goes though not so much with emissions I guess? I’d like to see a better level of textile recycling happening here.

[Reefgazer]

Make it substantially cheaper to re-use something.  For example, refills of coffee in a re-usable cup should be cheaper, bottled water should cost a pretty penny over water in a glass at a restaurant, and a grocery credit for re-usable bags at the supermarket. 

[TechWife]

3 hours ago, bookbard said:

 

Same with climate change. Really radical change twenty years ago would have been cheaper and less deadly than what we're going to face. We didn't have cell phones to throw away back then. Imagine what crap we're going to be throwing away in another 20 years.

We did have cell phones to throw away. I got my first one in 1997.  They’ve been going into landfills for a long time. I,too, can’t imagine what it will be like in 20 years. 

Edited May 1, 2022 by TechWife

[itsheresomewhere]

One thing we can all do is take a look at your state’s small business laws.  Some states are not small business friendly and that can affect how you shop.  
 

[Clarita]

2 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

But only governments/mega corps can.

People are a part of those are they not?? You could too in theory be a part of that.

[Grace Hopper]

We could all board a flotilla of space ships and travel to a new earth-like planet and begin a new civilization sans high tech. 
 

Well, that’s not a currently viable option but when I ponder this topic I always think of the final episode of Battlestar Galactica. And I wish there were some way to hit a reset button for a fresh start. I’d love to see fairly heavy restrictions on the use of plastics and true efforts towards methods for recycling the stuff. 

Personally I am striving to buy items with less packaging and when we are empty nest hope to downsize to a more walkable community so we won’t need to use a vehicle daily. 
 

So many things need to be done, too many to list. 

[Melissa in Australia]

Have no pets. The amount of food needed for pets is massive. Let alone all the  plastic toys that people buy them for them to tear up, and all the pet poo that people bag in plastic instead of composting and all the other consumer products that people get for pets. 

[Ausmumof3]

13 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

Have no pets. The amount of food needed for pets is massive. Let alone all the  plastic toys that people buy them for them to tear up, and all the pet poo that people bag in plastic instead of composting and all the other consumer products that people get for pets. 

Or alternatively have and encourage native local to your area pets

[popmom]

Are non- capitalist societies less damaging to the environment? I mean…does China encourage not buying and discarding more so than capitalist nations?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2799473/

Edited May 1, 2022 by popmom

[bookbard]

1 hour ago, popmom said:

Are non- capitalist societies less damaging to the environment? I mean…does China encourage not buying and discarding more so than capitalist nations?

 

I'm pretty sure China now has a capitalist economy. It's indigenous people who have lived with the land for thousands of years without destroying it. Unfortunately we've systematically destroyed their cultures, so . . . 

 

This was a good article about moving forward in a world that's increasingly hopeless: Orion Magazine - Beyond Hope

[Eos]

We can't.  Recycling, eating no meat, buying no plastic, buying higher quality things to last longer don't matter at all though they do make us feel slightly better - the bargaining stage of grief.  When carbon capture machinery is finally more profitable than not using it, it will be adopted so that the extraction/consumption model of our society can continue for a while longer.

The earth will outlive this particular phase of human.  We can't "destroy" it, though it might change its climatic composition and expression for a few hundred million years based on our actions.  The amount of time that humans have been on this earth is so infinitesimally small and the weirdly anti-sustainable, non-compatible with life ideas that have occurred to us as a species means we will be a teeny tiny blip of evolution.  

22 minutes ago, bookbard said:

This was a good article about moving forward in a world that's increasingly hopeless: Orion Magazine - Beyond Hope

I too love life.  

[Melissa Louise]

7 hours ago, Clarita said:

People are a part of those are they not?? You could too in theory be a part of that.

I mean, yes. In theory I could set my mind to becoming a CEO or PM, but it's not very likely. 

[Teaching3bears]

At least computers and many other devices are smaller than they used to be. It’s just we are buying more of them.  And there has not been enough effort to recycle them or their components.  
It’s all the cars on the planet too.   And all the trucks that are required to maintain our lifestyles of buy buy buy.

And though there are many efforts to do good for the environment at the individual level, this is not widespread.  Overall, we consume way more than we should and the message from capitalism to do this is stronger than the environmental message to reduce. 

However, I don’t think we should just give up. What will future generations feel about us if they knew we just gave up?  

I think we need a greater awareness of the role of capitalism in this so that we can find ways to prevent environmental destruction in a free market.  
 

 

[regentrude]

11 minutes ago, Teaching3bears said:

I think we need a greater awareness of the role of capitalism in this so that we can find ways to prevent environmental destruction in a free market.  

Having lived in a socialist country I can assure you that there was no regard for the environment there, and the dysfunctional economic system was incapable of doing the bare minimum for clean air and water.

[Pawz4me]

I'm flummoxed by people referring to throw away cell phones. I recently traded in my iPhone, which was several generations old, and got several hundred dollars in trade in for it. I don't think that was because Verizon is going to throw it away. Or is this where people are referring to buying high quality versus cheap? I guess maybe cheap cell phones do get thrown away?

I kind of don't like the attitude of "nothing you do matters." Maybe it doesn't, but to me it seems to be a way of easing guilt for doing whatever the person wants? As an individual I do the best I can (reduce/reuse/recycle, do most of the serious things that have already been mentioned, etc.). That's all I can do. But if many millions of us do those things it seems to me it should make some difference. If enough people did most of those things it would pressure corporations to adopt more environmentally friendly processes. It seems to me that's already happening, at least on some scale.

[goldberry]

8 hours ago, bookbard said:

I'm pretty sure China now has a capitalist economy. It's indigenous people who have lived with the land for thousands of years without destroying it. Unfortunately we've systematically destroyed their cultures, so . . . 

 

This was a good article about moving forward in a world that's increasingly hopeless: Orion Magazine - Beyond Hope

Oh def China is bad.  But I think in a capitalist economy the basic tenet of "whatever is most profitable is what we should do, end of story" makes it harder to even make an argument.  China is pursuing the same tenet, regardless of what they call it.

Humans in general are ridiculously short-sighted.  I think the indigenous people would have gotten there once they multiplied enough.

[Bootsie]

10 hours ago, popmom said:

Are non- capitalist societies less damaging to the environment? I mean…does China encourage not buying and discarding more so than capitalist nations?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2799473/

From what we saw in former Eastern Block countries and from what we see in China today, it does not appear to me that environmental problems are a result of, or even made worse by, an economic system based upon capitalism. 

[Pam in CT]

re ability of individually-scaled actions to solve globally-scaled problem

17 hours ago, EKS said:

I don't think that we can solve any of our environmental problems on an individual level.  The entire system needs to be revamped. 

This.

And the OP framing, of how to get from where we are, to collectively-scaled actions, within an economic system that only rewards *profitable* actions, is a helpful way to think about what limits/ circumscribes the tools in the toolkit. As multiple pp have already pointed out, planned obsolescence is much more profitable than building appliances that last 30+ years.

Technical innovation within that profit-driven system (ie more efficient solar panels, smaller/better batteries, EVs with longer range, etc) will help, a little, at the margin. And technical innovation outside of, but not structurally opposed to, that profit-driven system (ie green roofs in urban landscapes that keep buildings warmer/cooler, better insulated windows, LEED buildings, tiny houses built with big-life design, composting techniques, etc) will also help a little, at the margin, if adopted by enviro-conscious households and universities and etc. 

But these kinds of good ideas

17 hours ago, Reefgazer said:

Make it substantially cheaper to re-use something.  For example, refills of coffee in a re-usable cup should be cheaper, bottled water should cost a pretty penny over water in a glass at a restaurant, and a grocery credit for re-usable bags at the supermarket. 

get into public policy. How can these sorts of (good) ideas come about without price controls or mandates or other types of regulations that are in a degree of tension with "pure" capitalism?

My state has legislation that requires retail stores to charge 5 cents per bag, which functionally achieves the last of these. There was some pushback before it was enacted (and it was briefly suspended in the early months of COVID), but we're all well trained to keep a stash of bags on hand, and on occasion cough up the 5 cents. (Dunno how well that'd play on a national scale.)

But these kinds of clearly-good and clearly-necessary ideas require using tools of public policy, including some that circumscribe unfettered capitalism.

 

 

re the irrelevance of hope viz doing what needs to be done

10 hours ago, bookbard said:

...This was a good article about moving forward in a world that's increasingly hopeless: Orion Magazine - Beyond Hope

** blinking **

D@mn, thank you for this. It will take me some time to process the layers. On first read, I think the paragraph that most resonates is this one:

Quote

I have no patience for those who use our desperate situation as an excuse for inaction. I’ve learned that if you deprive most of these people of that particular excuse they just find another, then another, then another. The use of this excuse to justify inaction — the use of any excuse to justify inaction — reveals nothing more nor less than an incapacity to love.

But I'm sure others will leap out on second and third readings. TY.

[Farrar]

Agreeing strongly with the voices pointing out that we can't fix this as individuals. And honestly, while I do think we should all try to do our part when we can and make sustainable choices and all that, I think that line is used to make individuals feel guilty about the environment and think it's our fault when it's not. It's the corporations and the government. Our individual choices are nothing compared to them. And that guilt is wasted. Your eating a burger or taking a long shower or going on a flight is like whining about how your drop of water caused the flood damage when the corporations created a tsunami. Totally misplaced.

If you want to do something, vote and lobby for action. That's a better use of your energy than some of these suggestions. Like, all these "recycle" things. Y'all know a large portion of recycling goes to landfills now, right? It's cheaper to produce new goods than goods from recycled materials.

As for whether or not "socialism" does better... The assumption that socialism is the opposite of capitalism is pretty flawed. China is not socialist at this point. They do have a controlled economy. They are not doing much about climate change, though they could decide to at some point. And if they did, they just would do it. That's the benefit. But there's very little motivation for them to at this point, in part because there's no profit in it for them when no one is bothering. So they're mostly also motivated by worldwide capitalism. Countries with Democratic Socialist governments are mostly doing a bit better. But they're not powerful enough to fix climate change or doing enough at this point even if they were.

[Selkie]

8 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

I'm flummoxed by people referring to throw away cell phones. I recently traded in my iPhone, which was several generations old, and got several hundred dollars in trade in for it. I don't think that was because Verizon is going to throw it away. Or is this where people are referring to buying high quality versus cheap? I guess maybe cheap cell phones do get thrown away?

I kind of don't like the attitude of "nothing you do matters." Maybe it doesn't, but to me it seems to be a way of easing guilt for doing whatever the person wants? As an individual I do the best I can (reduce/reuse/recycle, do most of the serious things that have already been mentioned, etc.). That's all I can do. But if many millions of us do those things it seems to me it should make some difference. If enough people did most of those things it would pressure corporations to adopt more environmentally friendly processes. It seems to me that's already happening, at least on some scale.

Totally agree with the bolded. The people I know who say there is nothing individuals can do are ones who like to complain but don't want to change their own behavior that is contributing to the problem.

[Eos]

10 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

As an individual I do the best I can (reduce/reuse/recycle, do most of the serious things that have already been mentioned, etc.). That's all I can do.

I agree, and I do think that anything we can do will help alleviate some suffering. I do all of these things plus vote and canvass and many more.  But my answer of No, we can't solve our environmental problems within our capitalist framework is different than "should we do all the things within our control to try to help".  Because yes, of course.

[prairiewindmomma]

I agree that policy decisions help....but they really don't move as far as we would like.

I live in one of those cities kind of known for being full of vegan hippies who bike everywhere.  We had a plastic bag ban pre-covid, and we pay for each bag we purchase from stores if you don't bring your own.  We have legislation that requires us to ask for single use straws (paper) and generally takeout containers are compostable.  We have credits for upgrading our toilets or getting solar installed or any number of things. We actually have most of our energy coming from renewable sources, we have one of the lowest water consumption rates per capita, we have relatively effective public transport (ds is car free) etc. AND we probably consume more resources per capita than most of Asia and Europe.  Like, we are so far askew......and we are still heads and shoulders above what average consumption looked like when we lived in Texas. 

Most of us really aren't honest with ourselves about our plastic generation or our true carbon footprint. (Seriously, save your plastics up for a month and look.) And, we're the people who care. A good chunk of the US just doesn't care.  In a capitalist society, we buy what people sell. If we collectively changed our consumption patterns, businesses would have to adapt.

We are at the point where we need compounding ANDs.... We need to drastically change our behavior AND we need legislative guidance AND we need cooperative technology sharing AND.....even still it's going to be like trying to stop a freight train on a dime.

[TravelingChris]

I support a lot of environmental groups including ones that buy land.

But no, I am not becoming a vegetarian.  I am not going to walk instead of drive since I am disabled.  I use lights s lot for the same reason.   Nor am I raising temperatures in my home in thr dimmer or heating less in the winter.

[Melissa Louise]

3 hours ago, Selkie said:

Totally agree with the bolded. The people I know who say there is nothing individuals can do are ones who like to complain but don't want to change their own behavior that is contributing to the problem.

This is a lazy characterization. 

I'm spending election day here handing out how to vote cards ranking parties on climate change policy.

I don't run a car, a/c, a drier etc. I never fly long haul. I buy most of my clothes second hand. We eat mostly meat free. I contribute to a group that is involved in raising awareness of the need to mitigate extreme heat in lower income areas of the city. 

I do these things because they are the right things to do, and because they are within my control. 

At the same time, I know my individual actions are virtually meaningless in terms of turning environmental catastrophe around. 

 

 

 

[Selkie]

23 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

This is a lazy characterization. 

I'm spending election day here handing out how to vote cards ranking parties on climate change policy.

I don't run a car, a/c, a drier etc. I never fly long haul. I buy most of my clothes second hand. We eat mostly meat free. I contribute to a group that is involved in raising awareness of the need to mitigate extreme heat in lower income areas of the city. 

I do these things because they are the right things to do, and because they are within my control. 

At the same time, I know my individual actions are virtually meaningless in terms of turning environmental catastrophe around. 

Obviously I’m not talking about you, but I know plenty of people who are exactly as I described. They use the “corporations and government” line to excuse their own planet-destroying habits. 

[Melissa Louise]

1 hour ago, Selkie said:

Obviously I’m not talking about you, but I know plenty of people who are exactly as I described. They use the “corporations and government” line to excuse their own planet-destroying habits. 

They're not wrong, though.

And tbh, the problem is systemic - no one individual's choices are planet destroying. 

There's certainly a way in which those of us who practice greater personal 'responsibility' could be seen as performing virtue for its own sake, given that our actions have negligible outcomes. 

Even if we just look at a 'good' action like recycling - we might feel like we're doing something, but a lot of the time, recycling companies just shift the waste offshore. 

I think believing our individual actions have more impact than they do can actually stop us from considering the radical climate changes that are here, or coming, and how we may be able to survive them. 

People are still on 20th C thinking. We need to think like we're in the 22nd C already. 

[Selkie]

12 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

They're not wrong, though.

And tbh, the problem is systemic - no one individual's choices are planet destroying. 

There's certainly a way in which those of us who practice greater personal 'responsibility' could be seen as performing virtue for its own sake, given that our actions have negligible outcomes. 

Even if we just look at a 'good' action like recycling - we might feel like we're doing something, but a lot of the time, recycling companies just shift the waste offshore. 

I think believing our individual actions have more impact than they do can actually stop us from considering the radical climate changes that are here, or coming, and how we may be able to survive them. 

People are still on 20th C thinking. We need to think like we're in the 22nd C already. 

The thing is, when enough individuals change their behavior, it does have an effect. That happens all the time, but it wouldn’t happen at all if everyone shared the “why bother?” mentality.

I don’t see why taking responsibility for one’s own behavior would lead one to ignore climate change and how to survive it, as you said. 

[Moonhawk]

I'm not going to pretend I know enough about this topic to give actual advice.

What I found recently on my own searches was that Dr. James Hansen, NASA scientist and climate activist guy that is apparently a big deal to those in the know, recommends becoming a active participant with Citizens Climate Lobby, as being one of the bigger things individuals can do to make a difference.

"Be the change you want to see in the world" I think applies: even if your individual actions aren't saving the world, the inspiration you give to others might. The definition of a group project is that individuals are doing the work together. I completely totally get it's corporations that need to get on board, but we need to build the ship to get them onto. They won't get onto a ghost ship, frankly.

 

[Melissa Louise]

Just now, Selkie said:

The thing is, when enough individuals change their behavior, it does have an effect. That happens all the time, but it wouldn’t happen at all if everyone shared the “why bother?” mentality.

I don’t see why taking responsibility for one’s own behavior would lead one to ignore climate change and how to survive it, as you said. 

See, I think even if everyone gave up flights or went to meatless Monday or whatever, we'd still be tinkering at the margins. 

A system is more than Individuals A + B + C. It's it's own entity, and it creates and imposes powerful constraints on the individual.

There's a seductive fantasy that we can have this life, this standard of living, and still, by consuming in the 'right' ways, cheat what is already baked in. 

Idk. I just get frustrated. It was clear to us in AU we are in the climate change 'future' in 2019, when the East coast was on fire. It was clear to our Pacific neighbours a decade ago. We are long past 'what can we do to prevent this' and well into 'holy sh*t, we are in the dystopia.'

[Carol in Cal.]

I think that there is merit in trying to do the next right thing whether or not there is a clear path to victory or success.  I think that this is always true, and always noble.  Always worthwhile.

[Melissa Louise]

44 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I think that there is merit in trying to do the next right thing whether or not there is a clear path to victory or success.  I think that this is always true, and always noble.  Always worthwhile.

Right. I guess in my opinion the next right thing is mitigation. 

[Murphy101]

On 4/30/2022 at 1:01 PM, athena1277 said:

One thing that would make a big difference is for companies to make things that last longer.  
 

We all have heard stories from older generations about a clothes washer, range, etc. that lasted for 30 years.  Nowadays you are lucky if those things last 10.  
 

actually consumer reports went from listing expected lifespan on most household appliances from 20 years to 5. That’s entirely unacceptable. Longevity should be a major factor in computations for how green something is.  The cash for clunkers program was abysmal failure in my mind bc we need to move from the solution being how to junk cars to how to upgrade cars. There’s only so much metal on the planet (and no small amount of it being used by billionaires off planet) and the first rule is REDUCE!

 

On 4/30/2022 at 10:15 PM, Clarita said:

People are a part of those are they not?? You could too in theory be a part of that.

Yes. And no. More and more countries are seeing less than 50% participation of the populace in elections and voting. And frankly, I think TPTB like it that way and would fight to keep it that way for all their rhetoric about getting people to vote and be involved. 

On 5/1/2022 at 2:30 AM, Melissa in Australia said:

Have no pets. The amount of food needed for pets is massive. Let alone all the  plastic toys that people buy them for them to tear up, and all the pet poo that people bag in plastic instead of composting and all the other consumer products that people get for pets. 

Or. Quit treating pets like human children. Other than buying pet food, I don’t do any of that. We have a tree our dog uses to potty at. When the poo accumulates, we take a shovel and just turn it under the dirt. Their recyclable bags for on walks. The only toy the dog currently has is racket balls we’ve owned for 20 years and cloth squirrels in a log work toy.  The carriers were bought used and we’ve had them for many many years. The worst is probably kitty litter. But clay-based kitty litter is safe for the environment. 

I don’t believe in buy local either. Sure that’s great but trade is a good thing. I don’t know about the fear of you but I’m pretty darn happy scurry is not a winter threat every year.

I do think non-medical disposable plastics should be heavily restricted and be too expensive to throw away without copious reuse first.

I think corporate use of metals and other limited resources should require an actual reduction and reuse sustaining  20 year plan.

They want to make new cars? Awesome. How are you going to source the least you need, reuse what you get and what’s the plan for making that better/possible for 20 years?  Give incentives for upgrading existing cars and for reclaiming materials from existing cars.  I don’t want to hear about mining meteors until I hear about mining our trash circle from space.

The only way to make reduce & reuse happen is to make doing it profitable and to do otherwise too costly to default to.  And because people have been fooled into thinking recycling is good when it is just a last ditch effort to look on the positive side of failure.  Recycling is insane expensive and adds pollution unless we also reduce what needs recycling.