S/o Sick Shaming

[RootAnn]

When someone was diagnosed with HIV, I remember a small minority of people who said they deserved it for having unprotected sex (using men-with-men) or sharing needles. A much louder group then got mad at that small group for sick shaming those poor HIV-positive people.

More people said something similar of people with STD/STIs, but again, there was a concerted effort to defend those individuals along with a lot of talk to increase educational messaging.

I'm seeing a lot of sick-shaming of hospitalized COVID patients (whether vaccinated or not). But not that group standing up for them. 

I understand the anger at those who did not get vaccinated despite medical issues, previous covid infection, or religious objections, but I don't understand blanket accusations of how stupid the ill people are while all the rest of us stay silent.

[Katy]

Are these people you know in real life? I haven't seen anyone shaming sick people.  I've seen doctors say they have an emotional inclination to do so, but then when they actually interact with the person compassion takes over and they do their best to be kind.

[Melissa Louise]

I just feel sorry for anyone ill enough to be in hospital with Covid 🙁

It's absolutely tragic if they previously had the opportunity to get vaccinated, but didn't. 

[KSera]

2 minutes ago, RootAnn said:

I'm seeing a lot of sick-shaming of hospitalized COVID patients (whether vaccinated or not). But not that group standing up for them. 

I’m only seeing this amongst the same kind of people who post horrible things on social media about all kinds of things. There are always those people, unfortunately. I do see immense frustration among healthcare professionals taking care of these people in particular. They care about their patients and are taking good care of them, but you can’t blame them at the same time being so frustrated to have so many people sick and dying of something that is so easily prevented. They’ve been at this so long and thought that with the vaccine, people would get vaccinated and it would get better, but instead their hospitals are still overflowing with people who didn’t need to be there. I haven’t seen any express any frustration with the ones who aren’t vaccinated because they can’t be, but with the amount of lies and misinformation that have caused people to die for no reason.

[RootAnn]

2 minutes ago, Katy said:

Are these people you know in real life? I haven't seen anyone shaming sick people.  

Nope. All online. Mostly social media. Sometimes on here.

[MercyA]

I'm not seeing that in my area, but then, most people are still kind of pretending COVID doesn't exist here. (Even when they have it themselves. Then, it's, you know, "I have cold symptoms and had a positive test." Even when someone dies. Then it's, "They were old.")

It's messed up to shame people who are in the hospital, period.

Edited August 5, 2021 by MercyA

[Frances]

I haven’t seen it, so I’m not staying quiet while seeing it. As for STDIs, I’ve always pretty much heard people being blamed while also talking about more education being needed.

[KSera]

Adding: being more specific to the kind of historical shaming that you brought up, I think that would’ve been different had it been that the reason people were contracting those diseases was because the media was full of lies saying that none of those illnesses were really passed that way and that condoms were dangerous, etc., etc. That would be more comparable to the current situation.

[Frances]

The majority of shaming I’ve seen is towards people spreading lies and misinformation about covid and the vaccines and those refusing to comply with any required or recommended public health guidelines during covid (eg refusing to wear a mask and maybe even throwing a fit about it).

[Jean in Newcastle]

I haven’t seen anyone sick shame anyone on this board. The people (like me) who very much want MOST people (unless their qualified medical doctor advises them not to) to get a vaccine, want them to do so for their benefit. If people get sick with Covid whether vaccinated or not, we are sad. If they get severely ill then we are even sadder. 
 

 

[happi duck]

Glad I haven't seen that.

[Ellie]

35 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

I just feel sorry for anyone ill enough to be in hospital with Covid 🙁

It's absolutely tragic if they previously had the opportunity to get vaccinated, but didn't. 

Would you like to talk to my friend who was vaccinated, got Covid anyway, and was hospitalized? The same friend whose dh was vaccinated, got Covid anyway, and died? I'm sure she would have some choice words for you.

[Shelydon]

I see a lot of anger towards hospitalized COVID patients because it is causing so many issues with the local medical system.  Here, we are around 18% positivity rate.  The average wait time to get admitted from any of the ERs is 90 hours.  People with serious medical issues will now have to wait months to get life saving surgery.  I have a friend with kidney cancer that had her surgery postponed today for at least 8 weeks because the hospitals are overflowing.  99.8 percent of the hospitalized Covid patients are not vaccinated.  They are causing our medical system (locally) to fail and in turn killing others that can't access medical care.  Ambulances are having to take heart attack patients up to two hours away and those patients are dying in route.  It is tragic that people are dying from a vaccine preventable disease, but it is equally tragic that those patients' selfishness of not getting the vaccine is killing others. 

Edited August 5, 2021 by Shelydon

[frogger]

2 minutes ago, Shelydon said:

I see a lot of anger towards hospitalized COVID patients because it is causing so many issues with the local medical system.  Here, we are around 18% positivity rate.  The average wait time to get admitted from any of the ERs is 90 hours.  People with serious medical issues will now have to wait months to get life saving surgery.  I have a friend with kidney cancer that had her surgery postponed today for at least 8 weeks because the hospitals are overflowing.  99.8 percent of the hospitalized Covid patients are not vaccinated.  They are causing our medical system (locally) to fail and in turn killing others that can't access medical care.  Ambulances are having to take heart attack patients up to two hours away and those patients are dying in route.  It is tragic that people are dying from a vaccine preventable disease, but it is equally tragic that those patients' selfishness of not getting the vaccine is killing others.  I

I'm very sorry about your friend. It is very painful that so many are not getting needed medical care. I doubt many people realize just how many early deaths and life long problems are being caused by Covid patients flooding hospitals. 

 

I don't understand why people can't see that most human actions affect others and decisions are never made in isolation unless you live on a deserted island.

[frogger]

9 minutes ago, Ellie said:

Would you like to talk to my friend who was vaccinated, got Covid anyway, and was hospitalized? The same friend whose dh was vaccinated, got Covid anyway, and died? I'm sure she would have some choice words for you.

Why? 

I'm sorry for her hurt. Losing your husband is a terrible terrible loss. My BIL was recently hospitalized in the ICU despite being vaccinated but I've never heard him say he doesn't want others to have the protection from a vaccine because his own immune system didn't learn to fight off Covid from it. 

[KSera]

13 minutes ago, Ellie said:

Would you like to talk to my friend who was vaccinated, got Covid anyway, and was hospitalized? The same friend whose dh was vaccinated, got Covid anyway, and died? I'm sure she would have some choice words for you.

I don't understand. She literally said she feels sorry for anyone who is hospitalized with Covid. As has pretty much everyone else on this thread. I'm very sorry that happened to your friends. That is terribly sad 😢.

[HeartString]

53 minutes ago, RootAnn said:

Nope. All online. Mostly social media. Sometimes on here.

Most people are unaware of just how much of that type of stuff online is from bots.  Foreign countries put a lot of effort into sewing discord in our country, Russia and China especially, North Korea to a greater extent than you might other wise guess.  How sure are you that this is coming from real, live Americans?  

[Melissa Louise]

24 minutes ago, Ellie said:

Would you like to talk to my friend who was vaccinated, got Covid anyway, and was hospitalized? The same friend whose dh was vaccinated, got Covid anyway, and died? I'm sure she would have some choice words for you.

Wow, back off. 

I'd feel like those situations were tragic too. 

 

[Ellie]

16 minutes ago, KSera said:

I don't understand. She literally said she feels sorry for anyone who is hospitalized with Covid. As has pretty much everyone else on this thread. I'm very sorry that happened to your friends. That is terribly sad 😢.

No. She said, "It's absolutely tragic if they previously had the opportunity to get vaccinated, but didn't. " My friends were vaccinated and got covid anyway, and then were hospitalized, and then one died.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

Just now, Ellie said:

No. She said, "It's absolutely tragic if they previously had the opportunity to get vaccinated, but didn't. " My friends were vaccinated and got covid anyway, and then were hospitalized, and then one died.  

And that’s tragic too. One kind of tragedy doesn’t negate another kind of tragedy. 

[Frances]

26 minutes ago, frogger said:

 

 

I don't understand why people can't see that most human actions affect others and decisions are never made in isolation unless you live on a deserted island.

Unfortunately, I think many people realize their actions affect others and they just don’t care. What they want and need trumps everything. At least that seems pretty obvious to me after reading these boards and news articles during the pandemic.

[Frances]

3 minutes ago, Ellie said:

No. She said, "It's absolutely tragic if they previously had the opportunity to get vaccinated, but didn't. " My friends were vaccinated and got covid anyway, and then were hospitalized, and then one died.  

My deepest sympathies for the loss of your friend. You must be really hurting right now. But surely you don’t think anyone cares less about your friends because they were vaccinated?

[frogger]

2 hours ago, RootAnn said:

When someone was diagnosed with HIV, I remember a small minority of people who said they deserved it for having unprotected sex (using men-with-men) or sharing needles. A much louder group then got mad at that small group for sick shaming those poor HIV-positive people.

More people said something similar of people with STD/STIs, but again, there was a concerted effort to defend those individuals along with a lot of talk to increase educational messaging.

I'm seeing a lot of sick-shaming of hospitalized COVID patients (whether vaccinated or not). But not that group standing up for them. 

I understand the anger at those who did not get vaccinated despite medical issues, previous covid infection, or religious objections, but I don't understand blanket accusations of how stupid the ill people are while all the rest of us stay silent.

RootAnn, right now my biggest worry is my little brother with Down Syndrome who definitely in the high risk category. Some studies say 10 times the death rate but it varies by study of course.

 

He is not getting vaccinated because my parents have guardianship. I don't think they are stupid in general but they currently believe some pretty crazy things and it is hard for me to not go to the "they're stupid" thoughts in anger and frustration and concern for him.  Mainly, because they are reading  political bloggers and forwarded emails rather than speaking to his doctor that knows all his medical problems. 

He is taking no precautions at all really because they would argue with me against them anyway. I keep checking myself and trying to influence them to talk to his personal doctor in non-combative way in hopes of not getting their defences up.  I may be someone whom you hear getting frustrated and hollering about conspiracy theories but that isn't because I believe every single human that doesn't get a vax believes nutty stuff. It is because that is what I am dealing with all. the. time. In people I'm very close to. My in laws also have guardianship of BIL who is almost 50. They also believe downright crazy stuff. So please forgive me if I've offended you or others who don't believe this stuff. I know every human has a different journey and different reasons. These are just the reasons I'm dealing with firsthand.

 

If something happens to my brother, I will grieve the loss of many years with him but I will also worry about my step mom and how she will feel knowing she kept him from a vaccine. I hope I will empathize with her but who knows, will I be angry. I know she means the best by him and I hope that I won't say anything cruel but I will know that she kept him from a vaccine so I can't say it will be easy. 

Edited August 5, 2021 by frogger

[Ellie]

1 hour ago, Frances said:

My deepest sympathies for the loss of your friend. You must be really hurting right now. But surely you don’t think anyone cares less about your friends because they were vaccinated?

Clearly we are not communicating well with each other. You have completely missed the point. So never mind.

[gardenmom5]

This is a common thing - and spans many many many areas of life. 

the person who has never been unemployed, shaming the person who is unemployed because the company they worked for downsized, or went out of business.

the person who has had doors magically open for them - shaming the person who has struggled for everything they have accomplished.

those are just two.  and most of them do not have "groups of people" defending them either.

 

[Frances]

15 minutes ago, Ellie said:

Clearly we are not communicating well with each other. You have completely missed the point. So never mind.

I probably did because I was very confused by your initial post. It sounds like your friend did the right thing in regards to getting vaccinated and still got sick and died. That is very tragic. We always knew it wouldn’t protect everyone, but it must be absolutely terrible to have that reality hit so close to home. Again, I’m so sorry for you loss.

[mathnerd]

30 minutes ago, Ellie said:

Clearly we are not communicating well with each other. You have completely missed the point. So never mind.

Pfizer or Moderna always claimed to be 95% effective. So, there are some people who will fall sick with Covid even though they are vaccinated. This does not mean that the vaccine is ineffective. This only means that 95% of people who get these vaccines will not die due to covid. Other vaccines like the MMR vaccine also have an effective rate ranging from 88% to 97% against contracting the disease. So, this level of effectiveness is not unheard of in approved vaccine.

I am very sorry for the loss of your friend who got covid despite being vaccinated. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

2 minutes ago, mathnerd said:

Pfizer or Moderna always claimed to be 95% effective. So, there are some people who will fall sick with Covid even though they are vaccinated. This does not mean that the vaccine is ineffective. This only means that 95% of people who get these vaccines will not die due to covid. Other vaccines like the MMR vaccine also have an effective rate ranging from 88% to 97% against contracting the disease. So, this level of effectiveness is not unheard of in approved vaccine.

I am very sorry for the loss of your friend who got covid despite being vaccinated. 

Not to mention that the efficacy rate for Delta, is I believe, a bit lower.  And there has been some talk about efficacy waning with time? 

[mathnerd]

19 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Not to mention that the efficacy rate for Delta, is I believe, a bit lower.  And there has been some talk about efficacy waning with time? 

data coming out of Israel says that Pfizer is still 91% effective against severe illness (death?) from the Delta variant as the vaccine effect wanes, but I think that I have seen Ellie post about her friend long before the Delta variant took over (I could be wrong).

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/23/delta-variant-pfizer-covid-vaccine-39percent-effective-in-israel-prevents-severe-illness.html

 

Edited August 5, 2021 by mathnerd

[Pen]

5 hours ago, Ellie said:

Would you like to talk to my friend who was vaccinated, got Covid anyway, and was hospitalized? The same friend whose dh was vaccinated, got Covid anyway, and died? I'm sure she would have some choice words for you.

from the 6 month Pfizer results it looks like total mortality - deaths - among vaccinated and unvaccinated is essentially identical 

I am sad for all the dying, but I agree with you that not just anecdotally but also statistically, I see no reason to conclude that the vaccine would make death less likely.

 

on the other hand risk of adverse events and of serious adverse events is roughly double among vaccinated as compared to unvaccinated study participants 

 

So it appears that at same time as getting vaccinated does not prevent death it doubles risk of having an adverse event! 

 

Screenshots of tables from 

 

 

Edited August 5, 2021 by Pen

[AnneGG]

I don’t think people are stupid but I am frustrated by their choices. My counties vax rate is 15%. My neighbors have Delta. They’re not vaccinated and they don’t mask. One of them walks up and down the stairs/hall coughing and breathing heavy at all hours. They know full well they are sick and that our building is full of babies and young kids.  It’s rude.
 

I’m weary. It’s tough explaining mask burning, anti vax shirts, and bumper stickers that say “unmask the smiles” to my six year old. It’s tough trying to find food right now because in addition to being anti-vax, many are preparing for the end of the world. 

So yes, I may have said “I don’t understand these people” or something like that to express my distaste for their opinions.  I’m still empathetic if they get sick and I hope they don’t. 

[TexasProud]

3 hours ago, Frances said:

I probably did because I was very confused by your initial post. It sounds like your friend did the right thing in regards to getting vaccinated and still got sick and died. That is very tragic. We always knew it wouldn’t protect everyone, but it must be absolutely terrible to have that reality hit so close to home. Again, I’m so sorry for you loss.

Yes, and that is PRECISELY why we are frustrated with the people who have not received vaccinations ( unless for a really good reason). If most people had gotten the vaccinations, then the virus would not be circulating and your friends who died would not have contracted it.  Your friends did all of the right things. I am so sorry they died.

I have sympathy for all who are in the hospital and/or died with Covid. I do not have the energy to sift through and judge whether they did everything "right." ( Whatever that is.)  So many factors come into play. Some we can control and some we cannot. My job is not to judge illness.

[TexasProud]

5 hours ago, Ellie said:

No. She said, "It's absolutely tragic if they previously had the opportunity to get vaccinated, but didn't. " My friends were vaccinated and got covid anyway, and then were hospitalized, and then one died.  

Yes, I am confused. We are sad. they were vaccinated.  Are you saying that they died BECAUSE they were vaccinated?

[Bootsie]

3 hours ago, mathnerd said:

Pfizer or Moderna always claimed to be 95% effective. So, there are some people who will fall sick with Covid even though they are vaccinated. This does not mean that the vaccine is ineffective. This only means that 95% of people who get these vaccines will not die due to covid. Other vaccines like the MMR vaccine also have an effective rate ranging from 88% to 97% against contracting the disease. So, this level of effectiveness is not unheard of in approved vaccine.

I am very sorry for the loss of your friend who got covid despite being vaccinated. 

I don't think the 95% effectiveness meant that 95% of the people who got the vaccine would not die of COVID.  It meant that if you were vaccinated and exposed to COVID there was a 9%% chance you would not become infected.; most people who become infected do not die.  So, the effectiveness would have mean that a much greater than 95% of people who were vaccinated did not die.  And, the claim was also that those who did get COVID after being vaccinated had mild cases, were rarely hospitalized, and did not die. 

[Bootsie]

I think that there may be a difference in what people are considering "shaming."  I do not know if I would use the word "shaming" but I have seen a lot of hostile comments that lack compassion.  I have seen people called idiots and irresponsible.  I have seen people say that they wish when these people got sick the hosptials and doctors wouldn't take care of them.  I don't think these types of comments would be tolerated about someone who contracted HIV.  I also wonder when people say things like a college student has a right to room only with someone who is vaccinated whether they would support a student's right to know whether their roommate is HIV positive or negative.  

I also see criticism of lack of critical thinking skills, lack of fact checking, and believing the media when it comes to something that one does not agree with.  Yet it is tolerated (even participated in) when the unfactchecked media story promotes their own beliefs.  I have seen the 99% of the people dying from COVID were not vaccinated figure thrown around and around.  But, what is the source of that figure?  From the best I can tell it was from AP analyzing some data and that the CDC said it was not doing any calculations of the rate because the data wa so flawed.  Yet, you see CDC officials then toss out the number like it is fact.  

[MEmama]

1 hour ago, Bootsie said:

I think that there may be a difference in what people are considering "shaming."  I do not know if I would use the word "shaming" but I have seen a lot of hostile comments that lack compassion.  I have seen people called idiots and irresponsible.  I have seen people say that they wish when these people got sick the hosptials and doctors wouldn't take care of them.  I don't think these types of comments would be tolerated about someone who contracted HIV.  I also wonder when people say things like a college student has a right to room only with someone who is vaccinated whether they would support a student's right to know whether their roommate is HIV positive or negative.  

 

1. Um, HIV patients were absolutely shamed in the 1980s and 90s, and still today in certain circles. In no way are COVID and HIV related.

2. HIV status and vaccination status aren’t remotely alike. There is zero comparison to be made. I honestly don’t know how you think they are similar? 

 

[DawnM]

8 hours ago, KSera said:

Adding: being more specific to the kind of historical shaming that you brought up, I think that would’ve been different had it been that the reason people were contracting those diseases was because the media was full of lies saying that none of those illnesses were really passed that way and that condoms were dangerous, etc., etc. That would be more comparable to the current situation.

Agreed.

I have only had one person I know compare Covid to HIV and I just don't see them as similar.

[DawnM]

3 hours ago, Pen said:

from the 6 month Pfizer results it looks like total mortality - deaths - among vaccinated and unvaccinated is essentially identical 

I am sad for all the dying, but I agree with you that not just anecdotally but also statistically, I see no reason to conclude that the vaccine would make death less likely.

 

on the other hand risk of adverse events and of serious adverse events is roughly double among vaccinated as compared to unvaccinated study participants 

 

So it appears that at same time as getting vaccinated does not prevent death it doubles risk of having an adverse event! 

 

Screenshots of tables from 

 

 

 

 

Um.....no.   I don't have time to "rebut" this at the moment, but I won't take my stats or advice from this quack.

Here is an article on him.   

https://www.bostonmagazine.com/2010/06/24/the-end-is-near-inc/

[MEmama]

6 minutes ago, DawnM said:

Agreed.

I have only had one person I know compare Covid to HIV and I just don't see them as similar.

I suspect HIV is mentioned in connection to COVID in um…certain circles/tv programs as a coded scare tactic. They are, of course, not remotely similar in any way.

[historically accurate]

1 hour ago, Bootsie said:

I think that there may be a difference in what people are considering "shaming."  I do not know if I would use the word "shaming" but I have seen a lot of hostile comments that lack compassion.  I have seen people called idiots and irresponsible.  I have seen people say that they wish when these people got sick the hosptials and doctors wouldn't take care of them.  I don't think these types of comments would be tolerated about someone who contracted HIV.  I also wonder when people say things like a college student has a right to room only with someone who is vaccinated whether they would support a student's right to know whether their roommate is HIV positive or negative.  

I also see criticism of lack of critical thinking skills, lack of fact checking, and believing the media when it comes to something that one does not agree with.  Yet it is tolerated (even participated in) when the unfactchecked media story promotes their own beliefs.  I have seen the 99% of the people dying from COVID were not vaccinated figure thrown around and around.  But, what is the source of that figure?  From the best I can tell it was from AP analyzing some data and that the CDC said it was not doing any calculations of the rate because the data wa so flawed.  Yet, you see CDC officials then toss out the number like it is fact.  

These two diseases aren't similar at all in my opinion. I don't think you can equate a highly contagious airborne disease with a disease that requires bodily fluid transfers when discussing roommate situations. You can't NOT breathe a college dormmates' exhalations; you can avoid bodily fluids and still share a room fairly easily. 

[Bootsie]

9 minutes ago, MEmama said:

1. Um, HIV patients were absolutely shamed in the 1980s and 90s, and still today in certain circles. In no way are COVID and HIV related.

2. HIV status and vaccination status aren’t remotely alike. There is zero comparison to be made. I honestly don’t know how you think they are similar? 

 

I do know that HIV patients were shamed in the 80s and 90s and still are in some circles.  However, I do not think it is socially acceptable in most circles.

There are comparisons to be made.  First, does a roommate have the right to know private health information of those they are rooming with?  Second if my roommate DOES have a transmittable disease, I have a risk of contracting that disease.  Knowing someone's vaccination status give me a lot less information.  

[Bootsie]

2 minutes ago, historically accurate said:

These two diseases aren't similar at all in my opinion. I don't think you can equate a highly contagious airborne disease with a disease that requires bodily fluid transfers when discussing roommate situations. You can't NOT breathe a college dormmates' exhalations; you can avoid bodily fluids and still share a room fairly easily. 

The diseases themselves are not similar but the same philosophical arguments regarding whether someone has a right to someone else's private medical information are the same.  

We now know much more about the transmission of HIV (and how to avoid it) than we did in the 80s.  In the 80's many thought it was much more difficult to avoid transmission than we know it is today, yet we did not advocate for colleges requiring roommates to be tested and reveal that status to their roommate.  

[MEmama]

1 minute ago, Bootsie said:

I do know that HIV patients were shamed in the 80s and 90s and still are in some circles.  However, I do not think it is socially acceptable in most circles.

There are comparisons to be made.  First, does a roommate have the right to know private health information of those they are rooming with?  Second if my roommate DOES have a transmittable disease, I have a risk of contracting that disease.  Knowing someone's vaccination status give me a lot less information.  

What do you mean that knowing someone’s vaccination status gives you LESS information? If you meant more, I agree. IMO all universities should make COVID vaccinations mandatory, just as they do for meningitis and other easily transmittable diseases for which vaccines exist. That seems like a no brainer to me.

But again, someone’s HIV status doesn’t pose a risk to a roommate so it’s simply not compatible. There is no vaccine, yet (but it’s closer than ever thanks to mRNA!), nor is easily communicable. They just aren’t similar in any way at all.

[ktgrok]

I think people are frustrated. And that makes them not act their best. 

My neighbor got Covid. He refused to be vaccinated due to "stuff" being put in the vaccine, "chemicals", etc. Same guy that smokes, vapes, drinks to the point of passing out, and add in a dabbling in cocoaine. But the vaccine is what he decides is dangerous to put in his body. He actually was interesting to watch, as he was politically opposed to masks and mitigation, but also a germaphobe, so would go back and forth. He also worked for almost a week, with symptoms, before getting tested. 

So yeah, I was angry. 

But I asked how he was, and explained the options for grocery delivery in our area when he asked, offered to order for him if need be, and then brought him some soup. 

But I'm still angry, and think it was dumb as heck to work in public every day, refusing to vaccinate, while injesting all sorts of other dangerous chemicals. I can be all that and want him to get better soon, etc. 

[Bootsie]

6 minutes ago, MEmama said:

What do you mean that knowing someone’s vaccination status gives you LESS information? If you meant more, I agree. IMO all universities should make COVID vaccinations mandatory, just as they do for meningitis and other easily transmittable diseases for which vaccines exist. That seems like a no brainer to me.

But again, someone’s HIV status doesn’t pose a risk to a roommate so it’s simply not compatible. There is no vaccine, yet (but it’s closer than ever thanks to mRNA!), nor is easily communicable. They just aren’t similar in any way at all.

Knowing someone's vaccination status gives me less information than knowing their infection status.  I cannot get an infection from someone who is not infected.  

As far as universities making vaccinations mandatory, if a student is not vaccinated because of an exempltion, does their roommate have the right to know that and the right to refuse to room with that person?

[Innisfree]

I think this comparison (Covid to HIV) is complicated.

Covid-19 is so much more easily transmitted. HIV requires bodily fluid transfer; Covid is airborne. The actual precautions needed to prevent contagion are worlds apart. There's no reason a college student needs to worry about an HIV-positive roommate unless they're exchanging bodily fluids. A roommate with Covid, on the other hand, genuinely is a serious risk, especially with Delta.

But there was a time when people didn't know this, and yes, there was a lot of shaming. It was reprehensible, then as now, but fear doesn't bring out the best in people. I don't remember just how long it took for the transmission mechanism of HIV to be fully understood,  but I think it was significantly more than the few months before people became aware of airborne transmission of Covid.* There was a long time for people to be worried but not have clear information on how HIV spread.

HIV shaming was partly fear, and partly a proxy for gay shaming. It wasn't all about gay shaming, though: remember the HIV+ boy who wasn't allowed to use his neighborhood swimming pool?

I think one critical difference is that in the early '80s, people had fears, but little certainty about transmission. Today, we do know with certainty that Covid-19 is transmitted through the air. There's validity to the concern about, say, sharing a room.

As for privacy: is it an invasion of privacy to know that everyone in a college is vaccinated against measles, unless they have a medical exemption? How is that different from knowing that the same policy applies to Covid? It seems to me that this is an argument for all colleges having that policy, so the question just doesn't get asked on an individual level. It's just like having everyone mask in an elementary school, so individual maskers aren't singled out. If a college doesn't require vaccinations, then individual students' vaccination status does become important information for their roommates.

*Timeline on history of HIV and AIDS: first published notice of new infection in June, 1981; first published article on sexual transmission a year later, in June, 1982; discussion of possibilities of transmission ongoing in 1984. That's as far as I read. https://www.hiv.gov/hiv-basics/overview/history/hiv-and-aids-timeline

Edited August 5, 2021 by Innisfree
Autocorrect

[Pawz4me]

9 hours ago, RootAnn said:

Nope. All online. Mostly social media. Sometimes on here.

Unless you post specific examples, especially of the ones that (supposedly) were posted here, then I don't think we can have a productive discussion. Otherwise I have to wonder if this thread was posted just to be divisive.

[TexasProud]

1 minute ago, Bootsie said:

Knowing someone's vaccination status gives me less information than knowing their infection status.  I cannot get an infection from someone who is not infected.  

As far as universities making vaccinations mandatory, if a student is not vaccinated because of an exempltion, does their roommate have the right to know that and the right to refuse to room with that person?

Yes, I think the person has a right to refuse to room with the person. You have a high chance of being infected by that person.

That said, my daughter's roommate is not getting vaccinated. She had Covid summer 2019. She has several complex medical issues and has had a variety of reactions to medications and vaccines. Her body just does not respond well to most medications. I respect that. My daughter respects that and will continue to room with her. I am fine with that. I adore her roommate and respect her choice.  However, if my daughter had chosen not to accept that risk, that was her right. 

[Kanin]

8 hours ago, Ellie said:

No. She said, "It's absolutely tragic if they previously had the opportunity to get vaccinated, but didn't. " My friends were vaccinated and got covid anyway, and then were hospitalized, and then one died.  

That's incredibly tragic, too! Two very different situations though. 

[Bootsie]

5 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

As for privacy: is it an invasion of privacy to know that everyone in a college is vaccinated against measles, unless they have a medical exemption? How is that different from knowing that the same policy applies to Covid? It seems to me that this is an argument for all colleges having that policy, so the question just doesn't get asked on an individual level. It's just like having everyone mask in an elementary school, so individual masters aren't singled out. If a college doesn't require vaccinations, then individual students' vaccination status does become important information for their roommates.

*Timeline on history of HIV and AIDS: first published notice of new infection in June, 1981; first published article on sexual transmission a year later, in June, 1982; discussion of possibilities of transmission ongoing in 1984. That's as far as I read. https://www.hiv.gov/hiv-basics/overview/history/hiv-and-aids-timeline

I would argue that is not an invasion of privacy to know that everyone in a college is vaccinated against measles, unless they have a medical exemption.  It would be different, however, if the university identified who those with medical exmptions were.