S/o Sick Shaming

[Bootsie]

1 hour ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

None of those things are contagious viruses that are part if a global pandemic. Flu is the closest as a contagious endemic virus and those most susceptible to life threatening illness are strongly advised by my insurance company to get vaccinated. 

But, the argument for higher insurance rates has nothing to do with it being a global pandemic.  If the argument is that people are making choices that risk their having higher medical costs that they, rather than others, should bear, then the fact that their choice has to do with not vaccinating for a particular disease is irrelevant.  

[BronzeTurtle]

33 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

No, we were talking about insurance possibly charging more for unvaxed people, not hospital triage. 

Just wanted to add, I'm sorry, you are right and I went on a tangent unrelated to the previous posts. As you said, people were talking about charging more for unvaxxed covid people for insurance, Bootie listed a bunch of behaviours that could also lead to charging more, you said "None of those things are contagious viruses that are part if a global pandemic." And I went off on a riff about use of medical resources that wasn't really related. So sorry for diverging from the topic. I still don't really understand your statement, but you're right that it was about insurance $$ not other resources.

[SKL]

12 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

Just wanted to add, I'm sorry, you are right and I went on a tangent unrelated to the previous posts. As you said, people were talking about charging more for unvaxxed covid people for insurance, Bootie listed a bunch of behaviours that could also lead to charging more, you said "None of those things are contagious viruses that are part if a global pandemic." And I went off on a riff about use of medical resources that wasn't really related. So sorry for diverging from the topic. I still don't really understand your statement, but you're right that it was about insurance $$ not other resources.

The insurance thing was a spinoff too (and I was part of that diversion).  It's an interesting point, but not really about shame IMO.  I do think some people have brought it up in some contexts as part of an attack on unvaxed people.  An indirect version of "unvaxed/unmasked people shouldn't be allowed medical care if they get Covid."

[Dmmetler]

47 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

 

I guess my thoughts are the same. People who make unhealthy choices  use more insurance dollars. Isn't that why they would get charged more for not getting the vax? I don't see why contagiousness would be the differentiating factor here. If someone else getting sick is the issue, then have them cover the other person's bills. Not getting vaxxed for a contagious, dangerous disease is one choice of many that would use more money. I was responding to the idea that covid carelessness would be the differentiator in charging someone more and that flows into a use of resources and how we allocate them. If we charge more for someone unvaxxed it would be on the principle that they use more $$$$ because of their choices and maybe cause others too as well. Maybe they should pay more for being unvaxxed, especially if their risk is up because of other factors but I do think it would have a big impact on poc and people who are already poor.
 

Uh, DH and I both have to do a yearly biometric screening, including BMI, blood pressure, cholesterol, A1C, and nicotine. If we fail, we pay a pretty significant increase in insurance. This is after the ACA, so it's not pre-existing conditions, but it's definitely not the case that they don't charge more due to health factors. 

[SKL]

20 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

Uh, DH and I both have to do a yearly biometric screening, including BMI, blood pressure, cholesterol, A1C, and nicotine. If we fail, we pay a pretty significant increase in insurance. This is after the ACA, so it's not pre-existing conditions, but it's definitely not the case that they don't charge more due to health factors. 

Hmm, ours only asks whether or not we smoke.

It would be interesting to look at the range of experiences out there, in a different thread.

[Matryoshka]

32 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

Uh, DH and I both have to do a yearly biometric screening, including BMI, blood pressure, cholesterol, A1C, and nicotine. If we fail, we pay a pretty significant increase in insurance. This is after the ACA, so it's not pre-existing conditions, but it's definitely not the case that they don't charge more due to health factors. 

Yeah, we have to do all this and fill out a really obnoxious questionnaire that asks us about stress level, how many vegetables we eat, and how often we exercise, smoking, alcohol, you name it.  It's highly obnoxious.  It's not, of course, 'required', but if you don't fill it out, you get charged a lot more for health insurance (of course, they frame it as if you do fill it out, you get a 'rebate').

[Melissa Louise]

The shaming I have heard - quite widely - is related to obesity (they got sick b/c they're fat - no sympathy - they should have lost weight).

I think it's a defence mechanism, and it's related to the same impulse to ask 'but did they have pre-existing conditions?'

Blame/othering helps defend against anxiety. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 hour ago, BronzeTurtle said:

 

I guess my thoughts are the same. People who make unhealthy choices  use more insurance dollars. Isn't that why they would get charged more for not getting the vax? I don't see why contagiousness would be the differentiating factor here. If someone else getting sick is the issue, then have them cover the other person's bills. Not getting vaxxed for a contagious, dangerous disease is one choice of many that would use more money. I was responding to the idea that covid carelessness would be the differentiator in charging someone more and that flows into a use of resources and how we allocate them. If we charge more for someone unvaxxed it would be on the principle that they use more $$$$ because of their choices and maybe cause others too as well. Maybe they should pay more for being unvaxxed, especially if their risk is up because of other factors but I do think it would have a big impact on poc and people who are already poor.
 

The charging more for unvaxed people is a totally theoretical thing at this point. At least as far as I know. I do get some notifications on health insurance policy changes and have seen absolutely no alerts that say this is being considered. (Of course it could be considered in back room discussions and I wouldn’t know.). 
 

Poor people are unfortunately having to pay a higher price no matter what. If they don’t have equal access to vaccines or time off for possible vaccine side effects then that’s a problem. If they are exposed, going into quarantine is extremely tough financially. If their schools are closed they don’t have as many child care options. If they get sick then getting healthcare is difficult plus of course affecting being able to work as well as logistics like child care. If they get severe Covid and have long convalescent times, then again that affects their ability to work and provide for their family. If they die, then their family has lost not only a loved one, but a financial provider etc. 

In my area healthcare workers who care for these communities see the vaccine hurdles as the least of the possible hurdles with the best long term outcomes for people in the community. And I agree. 

[Matryoshka]

12 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

The shaming I have heard - quite widely - is related to obesity (they got sick b/c they're fat - no sympathy - they should have lost weight).

I think it's a defence mechanism, and it's related to the same impulse to ask 'but did they have pre-existing conditions?'

Blame/othering helps defend against anxiety. 

The people who do that kind of thing, from what I've seen, are the same people who don't want to get vaxed - they seem to use it as a reason why they won't get sick.  The people only got seriously ill from Covid because of some 'underlying conditions'.

I do not hear this from people advocating for wider vaccination.

[hshibley]

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

The shaming I have heard - quite widely - is related to obesity (they got sick b/c they're fat - no sympathy - they should have lost weight).

I think it's a defence mechanism, and it's related to the same impulse to ask 'but did they have pre-existing conditions?'

Blame/othering helps defend against anxiety. 

That’s what I see here as well. I live in the south and people will post on Facebook pray for my husband/parent/friend because they are hospitalized with COVID and you can’t go more than five posts before it starts- are they overweight? do they have high blood pressure? etc. It’s from the anti vaxx covid is a hoax crowd.  The part of the south I live in people post prayer request all the time and you never see this push back but soon as someone mentions covid it becomes a series of justification as to why it’s the hospitalized person’s fault. 

[regentrude]

3 minutes ago, hshibley said:

That’s what I see here as well. I live in the south and people will post on Facebook pray for my husband/parent/friend because they are hospitalized with COVID and you can’t go more than five posts before it starts- are they overweight? do they have high blood pressure? etc. It’s from the anti vaxx covid is a hoax crowd.  The part of the south I live in people post prayer request all the time and you never see this push back but soon as someone mentions covid it becomes a series of justification as to why it’s the hospitalized person’s fault. 

Yeah, because admitting ANY person could get sick with Covid would mean acknowledging that they themselves could get sick too, and their mind needs to perform whatever gymnastics necessary to remain in denial about this possibility. 

[Janeway]

21 hours ago, RootAnn said:

When someone was diagnosed with HIV, I remember a small minority of people who said they deserved it for having unprotected sex (using men-with-men) or sharing needles. A much louder group then got mad at that small group for sick shaming those poor HIV-positive people.

More people said something similar of people with STD/STIs, but again, there was a concerted effort to defend those individuals along with a lot of talk to increase educational messaging.

I'm seeing a lot of sick-shaming of hospitalized COVID patients (whether vaccinated or not). But not that group standing up for them. 

I understand the anger at those who did not get vaccinated despite medical issues, previous covid infection, or religious objections, but I don't understand blanket accusations of how stupid the ill people are while all the rest of us stay silent.

When my sister posted on FB that Dad was sick with Covid, right away, some people jumped in and made remarks indicating that he got it because he must have done something wrong. In reality, he was the most isolated ever, and was first in line for the vaccinations when they came available.

[katilac]

21 hours ago, RootAnn said:

When someone was diagnosed with HIV, I remember a small minority of people who said they deserved it for having unprotected sex (using men-with-men) or sharing needles. A much louder group then got mad at that small group for sick shaming those poor HIV-positive people.

I'm not sure if this will make you feel better or worse, but you are seeing the past through rose-colored glasses. It was not a small minority of people who shamed them and it was not a larger or much louder group that defended them, and people most often said they deserved it for having gay sex at all, not unprotected gay sex. People were shunned and treated with open disgust, kicked out of school, fired from their jobs, parents wouldn't visit their own adult children and wouldn't claim their bodies for burial. 

That doesn't mean the attitude towards Covid patients isn't worthy of discussion, but it's not in the same universe as what happened during the AIDS epidemic. That was a very ugly time, and we need to remember it as it was. 

6 hours ago, SKL said:

 And it seems to me that the majority of individuals affected would be insured by Medicare or Medicaid, 

Medicare because they're older, Medicaid - why? 

6 hours ago, rebot said:

Thank you for introducing me to this word. My son and I have been trying to out do each other with new words at dinner. We have to use a new, unknown word to both of us that fits logically into our dinner conversation. Pretty sure you just won it for me tonight.

Avenue Q has a whole song about it. I don't remember for this song specifically, but Avenue Q is a hard R at least. 

3 hours ago, SKL said:

1) I really don't care if people on WTM want to think I'm a liar or a drama queen.

2) I actually did try the search function a couple of times today, and it did not work.

The search function on this site sits on a hellmouth, nobody uses it. Use google site search for sure. 

[bookbard]

13 minutes ago, katilac said:

I'm not sure if this will make you feel better or worse, but you are seeing the past through rose-colored glasses.

Thanks, I hoped someone would bring that up. Saying 'I feel angry about covid deniers getting covid' and what actually happened to those poor young men (their own parents refusing to see them on their deathbed, refusing to bury them), is worlds apart.

Two days ago a young man in his 20s died in his home from Covid, in Sydney. It has shocked so many people - but immediately, the covid deniers began pumping out fake stories that he actually had pre existing conditions, using his death for their agendas, their 15mins of fame online. That disgusts me - they're doing for their own power rush, while persuading people they don't need to be vaccinated. 

[KSera]

3 hours ago, Matryoshka said:

The people who do that kind of thing, from what I've seen, are the same people who don't want to get vaxed - they seem to use it as a reason why they won't get sick.  The people only got seriously ill from Covid because of some 'underlying conditions'.

I do not hear this from people advocating for wider vaccination.

I hear this, too, even here on this forum. People say things like, “I’m not concerned that I would get very sick if I got Covid” and I always wonder what makes people so sure. We all hope the odds are in our favor, but with this illness, I don’t think anyone can feel confident about that, especially any of us old enough to have older kids. Last stat I saw from one of the surging areas, the average age of hospitalized patients was 42. 

[TravelingChris]

16 hours ago, Bootsie said:

I think that there may be a difference in what people are considering "shaming."  I do not know if I would use the word "shaming" but I have seen a lot of hostile comments that lack compassion.  I have seen people called idiots and irresponsible.  I have seen people say that they wish when these people got sick the hosptials and doctors wouldn't take care of them.  I don't think these types of comments would be tolerated about someone who contracted HIV.  I also wonder when people say things like a college student has a right to room only with someone who is vaccinated whether they would support a student's right to know whether their roommate is HIV positive or negative.  

I also see criticism of lack of critical thinking skills, lack of fact checking, and believing the media when it comes to something that one does not agree with.  Yet it is tolerated (even participated in) when the unfactchecked media story promotes their own beliefs.  I have seen the 99% of the people dying from COVID were not vaccinated figure thrown around and around.  But, what is the source of that figure?  From the best I can tell it was from AP analyzing some data and that the CDC said it was not doing any calculations of the rate because the data wa so flawed.  Yet, you see CDC officials then toss out the number like it is fact.  

Well unless you are having sex with the person next to you or sharing bloodproducts, I don;t know why HIV positivity would make any difference.

As to limited health resources--when a vaccine is available and you chose not to take it and there are people who need the respirators for RSV, for example, for which there is no vaccine- who should get the respirator?????  These are ethical questions and people are denied treatment all the time because of behavior-0you can't get a liver transplant if you are a still using drug addict or  alcoholic./

[popmom]

9 hours ago, Plum said:

Well I don't know anything about this GOP leader or what he's done before covid. Did he do nothing good in his lifetime? Does he have a family he left behind? I assume he was more than this one thing, so yeah I'd say it was sick shaming.

This isn't reserved for politicians. There have been countless news reports of regular people who had the same opinions on vaccine and masks and they have been held up as examples to encourage vaccinations, while at the same time shaming them. 

The guy that said "I should have gotten the damn vaccine" actually planned to get it after it's been out for a year. He was also local to me. He wasn't anti-vax. But it's a great story that might convince 1 person to get vaccinated so it's all worth it. 

I was actually here to ask about this. I’ve seen so many articles even about “regular people”. Most of those who’ve had this type of article written about them weren’t politicians. Some had a pretty good following on social media and were spreading misinformation. One radio host. One recently in my state was about an autistic teenager who believed COVID was a hoax “until he couldn’t breathe anymore”. His parents were interviewed for the article, so I’m assuming they hope some good will come of it. Still, I’m uncomfortable with these stories being “headline news”. 

[TravelingChris]

14 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

I currently know five families that were adamant anti maskers and anti vaxers who now have a loved one either very close to being put on a ventilator or are close to death bc they are also adamant that ventilators kill people.

I love these people. Genuinely. It’s really painful to get their updates and hear how entrenched they are in maintaining their stances even in the face of this. I do not think they deserve it at all. I pray to God quite literally for their family to be spared a loss. And I’m happy to help in any way I can. I would not advocate for denying them medical care - which I’m starting to hear a LOT of people suggest be a factor in who gets the very limited medical resources available.

But yeah. Internally in my head only - I’m just screaming Get a vaccine and wear a mask and for the love of life listen to sound medical reality. 

IF they do not want ventilators, I cannot see why they should get them.  We let cancer patients refuse treatment. I read an account of a doctor who spent one hour trying to convince a patient to use a ventilator--I think it is a waste of resources if your hospitals are full. Spend ten minutes say ventilator or die- and move on.  Now those that mean I want these people to have their moronic beliefs and die?  NO but I believe people have a right to refuse medical treatment except in very specific situations.

[Faith-manor]

7 minutes ago, KSera said:

the odds are in our favor,

when I read this, I instantly heard Hunger Games, Effie Trinket, in my head. Kind of feels like that!

Health line estimated that 60% of American adults have a pre-existing condition that makes them higher risk for covid complications. Sept. 3, 2020. I am not sure how accurate they are. Our doctor friend estimates at 45%. Either way, that is a rather startlingly large number, and variants keep getting more and more dangerous, we are going to experience a nightmare beyond our current imagination!

My daughter was in tears yesterday. This topic is so close to my heart. Our little grandson was just diagnosed with a heart murmur, not just a mild, functional one, but a murmur that needs to be closely monitored. She was at the pharmacy wearing a KN95, and an anti-masker accosted her with "Faith not fear". Dd burst into tears. I don't know who this woman is, and I better not run across her the next time I am in Huntsville because I will yell at her so bad she will wish she hadn't gotten out of bed! 😠

But yes, it has also been said to my face that basically people with pre-existing conditions are expendable. The most interesting case was a pastor who is 60, very overweight, type 2 diabetic, and has high BP. He said so self -assuredly that the virus was only a problem for people with pre-existing conditions, and he just knew if he got it, it would just be like a 24 hour flu bug! 🤔😲

And here is the other crazy case, a family in our town with a child who had infantile spasms and after it was diagnosed several years ago had to go on 30 days of injections to stop them, dangerous injections of a hormone that suppressed the immune system and a simple cold could kill him. The whole family quarantined for six weeks, did not have visitors, asked family and friends to deliver their groceries and other supplies, and told said family and friends they wore masks in the house 24/7 to protect him. They would not let their other children out in the yard if anyone was on the sidewalk, and the kids knew to run back in if someone came along. Total hermits, PPE. Same dad and mom now claiming "faith not fear" and saying masks are the mark of the beast. So if it is their kid at risk, then prudence, caution, and extreme measures are okay. Someone else's kid? Who gives a crap. Let.it.rip.

Oy.

Really not a fan of people in general anymore.

[TravelingChris]

12 hours ago, SKL said:

This is what I think also.  I think we need a periodic reminder of what was concluded after the long investigation of "Russia collusion."  The conclusion was that Russia and other countries' intent was to sow discord, and boy have they done it.  The sad thing is how Americans haven't learned.  I think that's because the people with the best ability to inform Americans don't bother to take that opportunity when it comes to this.  And then I wonder why that is?  Why would Americans not want to warn Americans against outside influence aimed at causing America to crumble?

Completely agree.

[Faith-manor]

16 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Well unless you are having sex with the person next to you or sharing bloodproducts, I don;t know why HIV positivity would make any difference.

As to limited health resources--when a vaccine is available and you chose not to take it and there are people who need the respirators for RSV, for example, for which there is no vaccine- who should get the respirator?????  These are ethical questions and people are denied treatment all the time because of behavior-0you can't get a liver transplant if you are a still using drug addict or  alcoholic./

Very true. Hospital ethics boards wrestle with this stuff all the time. 

[Murphy101]

10 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

IF they do not want ventilators, I cannot see why they should get them.  We let cancer patients refuse treatment. I read an account of a doctor who spent one hour trying to convince a patient to use a ventilator--I think it is a waste of resources if your hospitals are full. Spend ten minutes say ventilator or die- and move on.  Now those that mean I want these people to have their moronic beliefs and die?  NO but I believe people have a right to refuse medical treatment except in very specific situations.

I completely agree that if they want to make that choice - that’s their choice. 

Doesn’t make it any less head banging on the wall frustrating to hear why. 

[Frances]

20 minutes ago, popmom said:

I was actually here to ask about this. I’ve seen so many articles even about “regular people”. Most of those who’ve had this type of article written about them weren’t politicians. Some had a pretty good following on social media and were spreading misinformation. One radio host. One recently in my state was about an autistic teenager who believed COVID was a hoax “until he couldn’t breathe anymore”. His parents were interviewed for the article, so I’m assuming they hope some good will come of it. Still, I’m uncomfortable with these stories being “headline news”. 

As long as the people featured are consenting to the articles, I don’t really see how it’s any different than former gang members or drug addicts or prisoners, etc. sharing their stories in an effort to help other make better choices and not make the same mistakes they did.

[TravelingChris]

4 hours ago, Matryoshka said:

The people who do that kind of thing, from what I've seen, are the same people who don't want to get vaxed - they seem to use it as a reason why they won't get sick.  The people only got seriously ill from Covid because of some 'underlying conditions'.

I do not hear this from people advocating for wider vaccination.

Totally agree.  I turned off someone on tv because he was so obnoxious about all of us with pre-conditions.  And one of the biggest pre-conditions is being male-- males are doing much worse with COVID regardless of pre-conditions or not.

[TravelingChris]

28 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

I completely agree that if they want to make that choice - that’s their choice. 

Doesn’t make it any less head banging on the wall frustrating to hear why. 

Yes, I am very sorry about your relatives.

[regentrude]

In a county in MO, the coroner excludes Covid from cause of death so families won't be upset. Made the news.

Edited August 6, 2021 by regentrude

[rebot]

13 hours ago, Matryoshka said:

The people who do that kind of thing, from what I've seen, are the same people who don't want to get vaxed - they seem to use it as a reason why they won't get sick.  The people only got seriously ill from Covid because of some 'underlying conditions'.

I do not hear this from people advocating for wider vaccination.

For me, this comment sums up this thread. 

I have not personally claimed it was or wasn't someones fault they got ill, but I have heard it happen. What I have said is where do the mandates end? If they are going to require me to get a vaccine that I don't want, are they going to require those with a treatable comorbidity to deal with it.

I'll give an example... My MIL has multiple health issues (waiting on a liver transplant, type II diabetes, etc...) and she stayed with us for about two months while she was getting tests run to get on the transplant list. During that time, her sugar levels returned to normal. She was amazed, shocked that she didn't need her insulin shots. She's back home and once again having to take insulin. I asked why she doesn't eat like she did while at our house and her response was that she tries but it's hard.

Multiple people (even on this board) want the vaccine to mandated, but what about people like my MIL? People want me to get a vaccine that I am completely opposed to in order to protect others, but don't expect her to do anything to protect herself.

I don't agree with shaming anyone because of their health, but I also don't agree with forcing a vaccine on people who don't want it either.

Edited August 6, 2021 by rebot
context after reading the rest of the replies

[Murphy101]

3 hours ago, regentrude said:

In a county in MO, the coroner excludes Covid from cause of death so families won't be upset. Made the news.

He should be fired immediately. Probably won’t be bc frankly like every damn thing, our nation doesn’t have enough coroners.  But wow. If he can’t handle an upset family - how does he handle an upset cop or gang or what all else? 

[regentrude]

39 minutes ago, rebot said:

For me, this comment sums up this thread. 

I have not personally claimed it was or wasn't someones fault they got ill, but I have heard it happen. What I have said is where do the mandates end? If they are going to require me to get a vaccine that I don't want, are they going to require those with a treatable comorbidity to deal with it.

I'll give an example... My MIL has multiple health issues (waiting on a liver transplant, type II diabetes, etc...) and she stayed with us for about two months while she was getting tests run to get on the transplant list. During that time, her sugar levels returned to normal. She was amazed, shocked that she didn't need her insulin shots. She's back home and once again having to take insulin. I asked why she doesn't eat like she did while at our house and her response was that she tries but it's hard.

Multiple people (even on this board) want the vaccine to mandated, but what about people like my MIL? People want me to get a vaccine that I am completely opposed to in order to protect others, but don't expect her to do anything to protect herself.

I don't agree with shaming anyone because of their health, but I also don't agree with forcing a vaccine on people who don't want it either.

Bad comparison. Your MIL's diabetes harms only herself but won't infect other people. There's a huge difference to a highly contagious infectious disease.

Eta: I agree nobody should be forced. But then maybe people should have to test before participating in public life. (Back home, folks had to test before going to get a haircut. ) 

Edited August 6, 2021 by regentrude

[regentrude]

Just now, Murphy101 said:

He should be fired immediately. Probably won’t be bc frankly like every damn thing, our nation doesn’t have enough coroners.  But wow. If he can’t handle an upset family - how does he handle an upset cop or gang or what all else? 

I don't think the issue is that he can't handle it but rather that he wants to be nice and please the family.

Some people are nuts. If anything Covid taught me, it's that. 

[Faith-manor]

8 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

Totally agree.  I turned off someone on tv because he was so obnoxious about all of us with pre-conditions.  And one of the biggest pre-conditions is being male-- males are doing much worse with COVID regardless of pre-conditions or not.

Oy! 50% of the population has a pre-existing condition called Y chromosome.

I don't expect this particular pandemic to be an extinction level kind of event. On the other hand, it is seriously going to thin the herd if mutations keep getting worse. Lambda will likely be here soon. How many people have to die, how many applying for disability, how many children orphaned before the general public wises up????? 😡

It is no secret that this administration is having to hire a bunch of people due to the onslaught of disability applications due to long covid. This seems to me to be a pretty big clue. To quote a popular movie, "Hello! Anybody home? Think McFly, Think!"

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-tsunami-of-disability-is-coming-as-a-result-of-lsquo-long-covid-rsquo/

[Faith-manor]

4 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

He should be fired immediately. Probably won’t be bc frankly like every damn thing, our nation doesn’t have enough coroners.  But wow. If he can’t handle an upset family - how does he handle an upset cop or gang or what all else? 

Agreed. Coronors are unfortunately, few and far between.

[Murphy101]

3 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I don't think the issue is that he can't handle it but rather that he wants to be nice and please the family.

Some people are nuts. If anything Covid taught me, it's that. 

Yeah. That’s a can’t handle it IMO. Certain professions don’t get to lie to people in the name of being nice.  If he is one such a people pleaser - then he’s in the wrong career. 

And boy howdy  no joke that people a nuttier than a squirrel in a barrel of nuts.

 

[rebot]

11 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Bad comparison. Your MIL's diabetes harms only herself but won't infect other people. There's a huge difference to a highly contagious infectious disease.

Eta: I agree nobody should be forced. But then maybe people should have to test before participating in public life. (Back home, folks had to test before going to get a haircut. ) 

I don't totally agree that this is a bad comparison, but I understand what you are saying. Yes, her diabetes only harms herself but if she gets covid she will probably die. She can reduce one of her comorbidities by changing her diet which would give her a better chance at surviving. Over and over, people have told me to get the shot to protect others. Yes there are people who are immunity suppressed but there are also a lot of people out there (like my MIL) who can increase her chances at survival. I understand people can't wave a magic wand and change. Heck, I've been trying to lose those 15 Covid pounds for a few month now. If we become a nation that starts tossing out health mandates willy-nilly who decides who makes the mandate? 

They also changed the definition of herd immunity so it no longer includes natural immunity. I would have no problem acquiring natural immunity. Yep, for me personally, I'd rather walk into a room of 100 sick Covid patients then get the shot.

No problem testing before participating in public life, but that is not what is being proposed. I also have a problem with my husband having to go get his test today so they will allow him to return home from Mexico to Michigan when thousands are crossing the border and many/most are not being tested. If testing is mandatory to cross the border (which I think it should be), it should be required of everyone.

[1234]

23 hours ago, Bootsie said:

First, I am not saying anything about what I think should be the case.  If a school has a policy that "Vaccine X is required unless you have a medical exemption," I can conclude that people I come in contact with have Vaccine X UNLESS they have a medical exemption.  I cannot conclude whether an individual person has Vaccine X or not.  I think in most cases the fact that a medical exemption is in place would be a student's private medical information and could not be revealed to another student (without that student's permission) just because the other student thinks they have a right to know.  

At my dc’s university they have started sending out emails to those moving into dorms letting them know if their roommate has an exemption for the Covid vaccine (it doesn’t state reason for exemption - could be medical or religious). They have until Sunday to decide if they want to room with them or not. The university will accommodate students who don’t wish to room with someone not vaccinated and move them to a different room/roommate.

[TCB]

6 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

He should be fired immediately. Probably won’t be bc frankly like every damn thing, our nation doesn’t have enough coroners.  But wow. If he can’t handle an upset family - how does he handle an upset cop or gang or what all else? 

I think that they are elected in Missouri. Sounds crazy to me, and maybe I’m misunderstanding but I’m fairly sure it is an elected position. And if so that really just says it all with this pandemic!

[regentrude]

9 minutes ago, TCB said:

I think that they are elected in Missouri. Sounds crazy to me, and maybe I’m misunderstanding but I’m fairly sure it is an elected position. And if so that really just says it all with this pandemic!

You are correct. It also requires no training whatsoever. Mindboggling.

Quote

Is the coroner or medical examiner position elected?
Coroner: elected
Medical examiner: appointed

Mo. Ann. Stat. § 58.020; Mo. Ann. Stat. § 58.705.

What are the qualifications specified by law?
No person shall be elected or appointed to the office of coroner unless he be a citizen of the United States, over the age of twenty-one years, and shall have resided within the state one whole year, and within the county for which he is elected, six months next preceding the election. Mo. Ann. Stat. § 58.030.

The county medical examiner shall be a physician duly licensed to practice by the state board of the healing arts. Mo. Ann. Stat. § 58.705.

 

[TCB]

6 hours ago, rebot said:

They also changed the definition of herd immunity so it no longer includes natural immunity. I would have no problem acquiring natural immunity. Yep, for me personally, I'd rather walk into a room of 100 sick Covid patients then get the shot.

I’m not trying to make you get the shot, but have you actually even been in a room with 1 really sick Covid patient? I have, many times, and from what I’ve seen I would say your smartest move is to definitely avoid 100 of them. 
It’s one thing to not get the vaccine, that’s up to you, but that is just crazy talk that makes me think you don’t really know what you’re talking about.

 I’m sure you were probably joking or whatever but after 18 months I’ve kind of lost my sense of humor.

[pinball]

re:Missouri coroner

https://www.kansascity.com/news/coronavirus/article253147128.html

This article says he didn’t lie and did it only when there was another major cause of death.

COVID-19 is as much a political issue as a personal tragedy for some families. They don’t want the virus on any official record for their dead loved one. For others, restrictions on hospital or nursing home visits made death and the grieving process almost unbearable. The word “COVID” had become a cruel reminder of how they couldn’t see their family members as they lay dying and, ultimately, of what they had lost.

So the solution: Leaving COVID-19 off the death certificate entirely — an ethically questionable approach frowned on by much of the U.S. medical community as it tries to ascertain the the deadly extent of the pandemic in rural sections of the country and halt its spread.

The Macon County coroner omitted COVID-19 on at least a half-dozen death certificates in cases where another major factor — pneumonia in an elderly patient or “you know, grandma had one lung and smoked all her life,” for example — could be justified as the sole cause of death.

“A lot of families were upset. They didn’t want COVID on the death certificates,” Hayes said in an interview. “I won’t lie for them, it’s gotta be true, but I do what pleases the family.”

 

[regentrude]

16 minutes ago, pinball said:

re:Missouri coroner

This article says he didn’t lie and did it only when there was another major cause of death.

 

So the solution: Leaving COVID-19 off the death certificate entirely — an ethically questionable approach frowned on by much of the U.S. medical community as it tries to ascertain the the deadly extent of the pandemic in rural sections of the country and halt its spread.

The Macon County coroner omitted COVID-19 on at least a half-dozen death certificates in cases where another major factor — pneumonia in an elderly patient or “you know, grandma had one lung and smoked all her life,” for example — could be justified as the sole cause of death.

“A lot of families were upset. They didn’t want COVID on the death certificates,” Hayes said in an interview. “I won’t lie for them, it’s gotta be true, but I do what pleases the family.”

 

Yep. That's what he said. 
Because people do whatever mental gymnastics are needed to remain in denial that Covid is real. If it just says "pneumonia", I can pretend the pneumonia wasn't caused by a Covid infection and can keep up the delusion that Covid is not real.  Means, I don't need to do anything about it.
Also in MO, people sneak into vaccination places in disguises and plead for secrecy because they are so afraid of their friends and family finding out that they think Covid is actually a disease that could kill. (Also made the news)

People are nuts.
(Added for clarification: I am talking about the people who would give their loved ones grief if they found out they had gotten vaccinated. )

Edited August 6, 2021 by regentrude

[regentrude]

6 hours ago, rebot said:

 I'd rather walk into a room of 100 sick Covid patients then get the shot.

What makes you so special that you think you can't possibly be getting seriously ill? 

Edited August 6, 2021 by regentrude

[pinball]

6 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Yep. That's what he said. 
Because people do whatever mental gymnastics are needed to remain in denial that Covid is real. If it just says "pneumonia", I can pretend the pneumonia wasn't caused by a Covid infection and can keep up the delusion that Covid is not real.  Means, I don't need to do anything about it.
Also in MO, people sneak into vaccination places in disguises and plead for secrecy because they are so afraid of their friends and family finding out that they think Covid is actually a disease that could kill. (Also made the news)

People are nuts.

 

LOL…now you’re mad that people ARE gettting vaccinated. LOL

ah, that made my day.

[regentrude]

4 minutes ago, pinball said:

LOL…now you’re mad that people ARE gettting vaccinated. LOL

ah, that made my day.

LOL -No, I am not! The nutters are the folks who will give their loved ones grief if they find out about the vaccination, the ones who push the poor person to don a wig and creep in in a clandestine manner. If it weren't so serious, it would be hysterically funny. Alas, it is dead serious, and no laughing matter, especially not here.

ETA: And the ostracizing of folks who mask. If you don't want to mask, that's bad enough. But why the hell do people feel the need to mock and harass the ones who do? My friend who lives in a small town near here says the hostility is tangible when she's in the store, as the only masked person.

Edited August 6, 2021 by regentrude

[rebot]

4 minutes ago, regentrude said:

What makes you so special that you think you can't possibly be getting seriously ill?

Absolutely nothing, but statistically speaking I have a pretty good chance of fully recovering from Covid and having natural immunity. Unfortunately, the government doesn't count natural immunity in their push for herd immunity. This comment refers that I would rather knowingly expose myself to Covid and develop natural immunity than to get the shot before it has long term data. I would have to verify, but I'm almost positive, this is the first time since the development of vaccines that natural immunity has been excluded from herd immunity.

[rebot]

25 minutes ago, TCB said:

I’m not trying to make you get the shot, but have you actually even been in a room with 1 really sick Covid patient? I have, many times, and from what I’ve seen I would say your smartest move is to definitely avoid 100 of them. 
It’s one thing to not get the vaccine, that’s up to you, but that is just crazy talk that makes me think you don’t really know what you’re talking about.

 I’m sure you were probably joking or whatever but after 18 months I’ve kind of lost my sense of humor.

Nope, I haven't and what I said definitely didn't come out right. I agree that I don't want to mosey through a room full of sick Covid patients. For the first time in history (almost positive but need to verify) natural immunity is being ignored. Originally, there were some studies that showed there may be better immunity from the vaccine but more recent studies are refuting that. All I meant is that I would rather knowingly expose myself to Covid (knowing all risks of doing so) and developing natural immunity than subjecting myself to a shot that has no long term data. Unfortunately, even if I have had and can prove that I had Covid, the government won't count it in the mandates they are starting to propose.

[MEmama]

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/dont-want-the-covid-19-vaccine-then-pay-the-full-cost-if-you-land-in-the-hospital-11628206594
 

Article raising the idea of increasing the amount non vaccinated patients pay.

I'm particularly interested in the idea that an antivaxxer not receiving treatment before those who are vaxxed (or medically can’t be, of course) is *consistent with their beliefs* about Covid. I'm curious for the couple people here who still think Covid is no big deal and boast about never getting vaccinated would feel if/when they find themselves in a literal life or death situation and get passed over because of their choice to remain unvaxxed. Do you agree that would be consistent, or do you think that you should be eligible for care *instead* of a vaccinated person? 

[TCB]

9 minutes ago, rebot said:

Nope, I haven't and what I said definitely didn't come out right. I agree that I don't want to mosey through a room full of sick Covid patients. For the first time in history (almost positive but need to verify) natural immunity is being ignored. Originally, there were some studies that showed there may be better immunity from the vaccine but more recent studies are refuting that. All I meant is that I would rather knowingly expose myself to Covid (knowing all risks of doing so) and developing natural immunity than subjecting myself to a shot that has no long term data. Unfortunately, even if I have had and can prove that I had Covid, the government won't count it in the mandates they are starting to propose.

I haven’t checked out all the proposed mandates carefully, but in the ones I’ve looked at it seems like there are 3 options and you need 1 of them:

1. Proof of vaccination

2. Proof of a positive Covid diagnosis in the last 90 days - and I would imagine that the time period will increase with more data.

3. A recent negative test.

I don’t really have a strong opinion on mandates either way, I haven’t thought enough about all the implications, but I do wonder why, living in a community, it should be accepted that some people can go around, making no effort to protect those around them, and the rest of us just have to accept that. How is that in any way fair? I would like to see personal responsibility be the order of the day. 

Edited August 6, 2021 by TCB
Typo

[Danae]

8 minutes ago, MEmama said:

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/dont-want-the-covid-19-vaccine-then-pay-the-full-cost-if-you-land-in-the-hospital-11628206594
 

Article raising the idea of increasing the amount non vaccinated patients pay.

I'm particularly interested in the idea that an antivaxxer not receiving treatment before those who are vaxxed (or medically can’t be, of course) is *consistent with their beliefs* about Covid. I'm curious for the couple people here who still think Covid is no big deal and boast about never getting vaccinated would feel if/when they find themselves in a literal life or death situation and get passed over because of their choice to remain unvaxxed. Do you agree that would be consistent, or do you think that you should be eligible for care *instead* of a vaccinated person? 

I am 100% opposed to the idea of giving insurance companies more reasons to deny coverage.  It’s a terrible idea.  We should be moving towards more complete coverage, not less.

[regentrude]

17 minutes ago, rebot said:

 For the first time in history (almost positive but need to verify) natural immunity is being ignored. 

I don't think that is the case.
At the university where I work, the instructions for students moving into the dorms state that the college accepts proof that they have recovered from Covid within the last 90 days as an alternative to proof of vaccination.
I have seen similar statements in a variety of other situations, for example entry into my home country.

Edited August 6, 2021 by regentrude

[MEmama]

2 minutes ago, Danae said:

I am 100% opposed to the idea of giving insurance companies more reasons to deny coverage.  It’s a terrible idea.  We should be moving towards more complete coverage, not less.

Oh I’m all for universal health care. Too bad it will unlikely ever come to be in the US. 

I'm mostly curious whether an anti vaxxer believes they are entitled to care, despite vaccine refusal, despite boastfully not taking precautions, over someone who did vaccinate. Who, when push comes to shove, “deserves” medical treatment more? Sadly, because of a reluctance by far too many to take personal responsibility, there are hospitals in our country making this decision everyday. It’s a terrible ethical dilemma.