S/o Sick Shaming

[BronzeTurtle]

1 hour ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Delta did not show up in the US until March of this year.  (It was in India prior to that and no, there was not widespread vaccination there).  Even in March, while there was some vaccination, it was still not available to most adults under age 60.  https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/22/health/delta-variant-covid.html

Right, sorry, I was speaking globally of when the variant was first identified. But the previous poster stated we have more long term data on the vaccine than on the delta strain of covid. I wasn't sure how that would be possible in most populations, even in the US. As in, the delta strain has been identified longer than widespread vaccination has been possible (and probably longer than that in the US given that they tend to be more terrible at genomic tracking of covid than some other places). Which I think is also what you were saying above?

I am not concerned about it really because all the data I've seen has indicated that my vaccine will work wonderfully despite the increased transmissibility of the delta variant. 

Mainly I was wondering about how the previous poster came to the conclusion that we have more long term data on one thing vs the other when I think this variant of concern has been around for awhile. No big deal, though.

[Jean in Newcastle]

15 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

Right, sorry, I was speaking globally of when the variant was first identified. But the previous poster stated we have more long term data on the vaccine than on the delta strain of covid. I wasn't sure how that would be possible in most populations, even in the US. As in, the delta strain has been identified longer than widespread vaccination has been possible (and probably longer than that in the US given that they tend to be more terrible at genomic tracking of covid than some other places). Which I think is also what you were saying above?

I am not concerned about it really because all the data I've seen has indicated that my vaccine will work wonderfully despite the increased transmissibility of the delta variant. 

Mainly I was wondering about how the previous poster came to the conclusion that we have more long term data on one thing vs the other when I think this variant of concern has been around for awhile. No big deal, though.

We have more longterm data because the old variants don’t just disappear when a new one shows up. But I agree that my vaccine still gives me a lot of protection even against Delta. 

[ktgrok]

24 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

Right, sorry, I was speaking globally of when the variant was first identified. But the previous poster stated we have more long term data on the vaccine than on the delta strain of covid. I wasn't sure how that would be possible in most populations, even in the US. As in, the delta strain has been identified longer than widespread vaccination has been possible (and probably longer than that in the US given that they tend to be more terrible at genomic tracking of covid than some other places). Which I think is also what you were saying above?

I am not concerned about it really because all the data I've seen has indicated that my vaccine will work wonderfully despite the increased transmissibility of the delta variant. 

Mainly I was wondering about how the previous poster came to the conclusion that we have more long term data on one thing vs the other when I think this variant of concern has been around for awhile. No big deal, though.

I meant data on safety - the vaccine trials started well before the Delta variant was being studied. So for those saying they don't want the vaccine due to lack of long term safety data, well we don't have long term safety data on Delta - less than on the vaccine. 

[BronzeTurtle]

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

I meant data on safety - the vaccine trials started well before the Delta variant was being studied. So for those saying they don't want the vaccine due to lack of long term safety data, well we don't have long term safety data on Delta - less than on the vaccine. 

Oh, okay. Most people I know who are waiting are thinking of long term data as at least a year or two. The few months of the initial Phase II trials in a small population isn't really what they are talking about when they say long term safety data.

On the other hand, I don't view delta as anything different than covid itself. Because it is covid. So I feel like whatever data is not going to make a difference in my view of getting vaccinated vs not. I'd like to not get severe covid, so I got vaccinated, delta notwithstanding.

It is unsettling though that states with high vaccination rates, especially among the elderly and vulnerable, are still seeing hospitalizations surge with cases. If Florida is this bad now with 70% vaccinated, it seems like New York and other places are going to get their turn in the barrel pretty soon because their vaccination rate is not that much higher.

Edited August 9, 2021 by BronzeTurtle

[KSera]

3 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

It is unsettling though that states with high vaccination rates, especially among the elderly and vulnerable, are still seeing hospitalizations surge with cases. If Florida is this bad now with 70% vaccinated, it seems like New York and other places are going to get their turn in the barrel pretty soon because their vaccination rate is not that much higher.

From what even more highly vaccinated countries are seeing, vaccination rates need to be way higher than 70% to not have surges, because this virus is just so good at finding hosts.

[Jean in Newcastle]

4 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

Oh, okay. Most people I know who are waiting are thinking of long term data as at least a year or two. The few months of the initial Phase II trials in a small population isn't really what they are talking about when they say long term safety data.

On the other hand, I don't view delta as anything different than covid itself. Because it is covid. So I feel like whatever data is not going to make a difference in my view of getting vaccinated vs not. I'd like to not get severe covid, so I got vaccinated, delta notwithstanding.

It is unsettling though that states with high vaccination rates, especially among the elderly and vulnerable, are still seeing hospitalizations surge with cases. If Florida is this bad now with 70% vaccinated, it seems like New York and other places are going to get their turn in the barrel pretty soon because their vaccination rate is not that much higher.

I agree that it is unsettling. But other behaviors are also important. I don’t know for sure, but reports from boardies who live in NY vs Florida seem to indicate different attitudes towards masking and social distancing. I think that’s still important. 

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, KSera said:

From what even more highly vaccinated countries are seeing, vaccination rates need to be way higher than 70% to not have surges, because this virus is just so good at finding hosts.

FL highly vaccinated it’s **seniors** and allowed a free for all with everyone else. Their total vax rate is nowhere near 70%. Their average age for hospitalized patients is around 45.  They lead the nation in pediatric hospitalizations. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article253250073.html

Edited August 9, 2021 by Sneezyone

[BronzeTurtle]

Just now, KSera said:

From what even more highly vaccinated countries are seeing, vaccination rates need to be way higher than 70% to not have surges, because this virus is just so good at finding hosts.

Sorry, I didn't complete my thought, but actually immunity in the community would be higher than 70% because many people who are choosing not to get vaccinated have already had covid, right? That would be a big reason that people wouldn't get the shot? I also think that if a state with 70% vaccinated doesn't make a dent in the actual healthcare strain of the pandemic, then that is probably not going to encourage people to vaccinate themselves either if they are skeptical. By all accounts, even with so many people having had it and having had the vaccine, things should be at least a bit measurably better. If we are still doing full icus and overrun hospitals after two seasonal waves and shots?

Interestingly, though, I am seeing a lot more people very public about living their lives normally after being vaccinated, so that is hopeful. If there is less stigma for getting covid post-vaccine, I think that might help with some messaging in the public health realm of things.

[Jean in Newcastle]

12 minutes ago, KSera said:

From what even more highly vaccinated countries are seeing, vaccination rates need to be way higher than 70% to not have surges, because this virus is just so good at finding hosts.

 

9 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

FL highly vaccinated it’s **seniors** and allowed a free for all with everyone else. Their total vax rate is nowhere near 70%. Their average age for hospitalized patients is around 45.  They lead the nation in pediatric hospitalizations. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article253250073.html

True about the vaccination rate in FL not being that high. 
 

But our local news was just quoting the very good local health department as saying that a 90% vaccination rate is really what’s needed. And before someone cries about being lied to, I always knew that this was most likely. And anyone with college level science should have known that. They just set a lower (70%) goal because it was more likely  to get compliance. 

Edited August 9, 2021 by Jean in Newcastle
Typo

[frogger]

On 8/7/2021 at 4:22 PM, happysmileylady said:

Hospitals would be in much better shape if THEY made better choices too.  They were panic buying TP just like the rest of the US.   Operating on ultra thin admissions margins.   Just in time supply and demand.   Not catering to insurance companies.   And about a nazillion other issues that make HOSPITALS overwhelmed in every disaster they experience.  

 

Unfortunately, it's not profitable to for hospitals to be capable of handling emergencies. 

I actually think this is a huge issues. How many of us now really really smart young adults who couldn't get into med school because there are so few slots? Residencies are an even smaller bottleneck.

 

I wear masks. I vaccinated but that alone will not fix the hospital problem. More than the usual number of doctors and nurses retired this year and our hospitals cannot find replacements and are grossly understaffed for just regular accidents and flu and such. This will be a problem if we don't do something about it and yet we are completely focused on only trying to contain a ver sneaky virus. My daughter who was vaccinated now has a stealth case. We tested only for exposure but if we didn't happen to know we were exposed we wouldn't test. She has no symptoms whatsoever. She will now miss orientation and the first days of school of her freshman year. Have to take a red eye once out of quarantine and start classes dead tired and behind. I'm sure the school will work with us on some of this but the point is, it is a sneaky virus. Maybe they all are and we have just never tested everyone who came in contact with someone else.

 

At some point, people ought to start focusing on, complaining about, and trying to solve the lack of medical staff and the regulations that caused it. 

[frogger]

3 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

 

True about the vaccination rate in FL not being that high. 
 

But our local news was just quoting the very good local health department as saying that a 90% vaccination rate is really what’s needed. And before someone cries about being lied to, I always knew that this was most likely. And anyone with college level science should have known that. They just set a lower (70%) goal because it was more lijely to get compliance. 

Every time people are lied to, they get more distrustful. It isn't helping things at all.

[Sneezyone]

24 minutes ago, frogger said:

I actually think this is a huge issues. How many of us now really really smart young adults who couldn't get into med school because there are so few slots? Residencies are an even smaller bottleneck.

 

I wear masks. I vaccinated but that alone will not fix the hospital problem. More than the usual number of doctors and nurses retired this year and our hospitals cannot find replacements and are grossly understaffed for just regular accidents and flu and such. This will be a problem if we don't do something about it and yet we are completely focused on only trying to contain a ver sneaky virus. My daughter who was vaccinated now has a stealth case. We tested only for exposure but if we didn't happen to know we were exposed we wouldn't test. She has no symptoms whatsoever. She will now miss orientation and the first days of school of her freshman year. Have to take a red eye once out of quarantine and start classes dead tired and behind. I'm sure the school will work with us on some of this but the point is, it is a sneaky virus. Maybe they all are and we have just never tested everyone who came in contact with someone else.

 

At some point, people ought to start focusing on, complaining about, and trying to solve the lack of medical staff and the regulations that caused it. 

This will always be a problem so long as hospitals and healthcare remain for profit only. Having extra capacity is something only government can/will do with collective public funding.

Edited August 9, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, frogger said:

Every time people are lied to, they get more distrustful. It isn't helping things at all.

It was a goal, not a lie.

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 minute ago, frogger said:

Every time people are lied to, they get more distrustful. It isn't helping things at all.

Except that we weren’t lied to. We were told “we are still getting information about this virus. We don’t know what percentage of vaccination we need exactly but let’s shoot for 70%“. A simple google seatch asking “what is the percentage needed for herd immunity “ will tell you that. The “we’re being lied to” thing is just an excuse not to use our brains. 

[BronzeTurtle]

20 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

FL highly vaccinated it’s **seniors** and allowed a free for all with everyone else. Their total vax rate is nowhere near 70%. Their average age for hospitalized patients is around 45.  They lead the nation in pediatric hospitalizations. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article253250073.html

Oh, my bad, I thought I saw on the NY times tracker that 70% of adults were vaccinated in FL. I'll go look again. I mean, comparatively it didn't seem that much different than NY itself, but NY hasn't had their seasonal wave really yet.

[Corraleno]

2 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

Oh, my bad, I thought I saw on the NY times tracker that 70% of adults were vaccinated in FL. I'll go look again. I mean, comparatively it didn't seem that much different than NY itself, but NY hasn't had their seasonal wave really yet.

70% of adults have had 1 shot, and I believe that number increased a lot in the last couple of weeks as things were obviously getting out of control. Only 50% of the population is fully vaxed.

Edited August 9, 2021 by Corraleno

[ktgrok]

29 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

Oh, okay. Most people I know who are waiting are thinking of long term data as at least a year or two. The few months of the initial Phase II trials in a small population isn't really what they are talking about when they say long term safety data.

On the other hand, I don't view delta as anything different than covid itself. Because it is covid. So I feel like whatever data is not going to make a difference in my view of getting vaccinated vs not. I'd like to not get severe covid, so I got vaccinated, delta notwithstanding.

It is unsettling though that states with high vaccination rates, especially among the elderly and vulnerable, are still seeing hospitalizations surge with cases. If Florida is this bad now with 70% vaccinated, it seems like New York and other places are going to get their turn in the barrel pretty soon because their vaccination rate is not that much higher.

Yeah, either way - either we have a few measly more months of data on covid as a whole than on the vaccines, as a whole, or we have less info on the new variant than on the vaccines. So to say long term studies are the reason makes no sense to me, given there is only a matter of a few months data difference on covid vs covid vaccine. And less if we talk the variant in particular. And particulars seem to matter to people worried about the mRNA part (although with Johnson and Johnson available that seems less impressive a point)

[BronzeTurtle]

It was here: FL at 71% of adults and NY at 76%

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/covid-19-vaccine-doses.html

I don't want to be spreading disinformation, so please help me out if I didn't link correctly or I'm reading this wrong.

[Corraleno]

34 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

It was here: FL at 71% of adults and NY at 76%

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/covid-19-vaccine-doses.html

I don't want to be spreading disinformation, so please help me out if I didn't link correctly or I'm reading this wrong.

That's ONE shot, not fully vaxxed, and we know that one shot is not very effective against Delta. And FL has not been at 70% for long, there has been a big surge in vaccine uptake in the last couple of weeks, e.g.:

"In the week ending Wednesday [7/28], some 249,750 Floridians received their first vaccine dose, a USA TODAY analysis of CDC data shows. That number's up about 59% in just two weeks, from 157,350 first-dose vaccines administered in the week ending July 14." 
https://www.heraldtribune.com/story/news/coronavirus/2021/07/29/florida-covid-19-vaccinations-rise-amid-fears-delta-variant/5415208001/

 

 

Edited August 9, 2021 by Corraleno

[BronzeTurtle]

In any case, I do think drastic measures will need to be taken to get the rest of North America and Europe vaccinated. I can see it being a fight.

But my concern is mainly that Florida seems to be fully middle of the road in vaccinations, maybe higher than a lot of places when it comes to seniors. If they are doing poorly, we need to maybe do something forceful to get everyone to get their shots.

And we have a lot of news about vaccinated people living like it's not a problem. That needs to probably not be happening as well.

[KSera]

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

FL highly vaccinated it’s **seniors** and allowed a free for all with everyone else. Their total vax rate is nowhere near 70%. Their average age for hospitalized patients is around 45.  They lead the nation in pediatric hospitalizations. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article253250073.html

Nevermind. Already covered by other posts I didn't see.

Edited August 9, 2021 by KSera

[BronzeTurtle]

5 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

That's ONE shot, not fully vaxxed, and we know that one shot is not very effective agent Delta. And FL has not been at 70% for long, there has been a big surge in vaccine uptake in the last couple of weeks, e.g.:

"In the week ending Wednesday [7/28], some 249,750 Floridians received their first vaccine dose, a USA TODAY analysis of CDC data shows. That number's up about 59% in just two weeks, from 157,350 first-dose vaccines administered in the week ending July 14." 
https://www.heraldtribune.com/story/news/coronavirus/2021/07/29/florida-covid-19-vaccinations-rise-amid-fears-delta-variant/5415208001/

 

 

I think one shot against covid still is more efficacious than the flu shot. If we are not seeing a dent in alleviating health care burden with more than half the population vaccinated, I think that's not good news. It should show up somewhere even if it's not eliminating the problem.

Plus the horse is out of the barn I think on the messaging that once you get your two shots you can go back to normal life. 

[frogger]

23 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

This will always be a problem so long as hospitals and healthcare remain for profit only. Having extra capacity is something only government can/will do with collective public funding.

My main issue with this take is that currently gov't is causing many of the problems. It is not unregulated as many people claim. In my city,  we had hospitals competing with each for permission from a government board to add capacity a couple years ago. Without gov't we would have had more capacity to begin with. 

 

Our health care is the worst of both worlds and both single payer OR free market would be much better than lobbyists making convoluted laws to increase their bottom line while decreasing transparency and increasing complexity and cost in the process. 

[BronzeTurtle]

2 minutes ago, KSera said:

Ah, you're right. I just trusted the 70% number given was taken from somewhere accurate, but I see they are at 51% of their population fully vaxed. 62% have one dose, but it's clear with Delta that partially vaxed is insufficient. Yeah, with half the population unvaccinated, and little to no mitigation in place, it's not the least bit surprising 😔.

I got it from the NY Times vaccine tracker, so I'm sorry I'm not up on all the sources you all are using here that are more accurate. I was comparing NY rates to FL rates and simply saying that it is not encouraging to me because their rates of vaccination are not that dissimilar and NY (well the NE of the US and SE Canada) still has their seasonal wave upcoming.

As far as I knew getting once shot was still considered getting vaccinated. I know that two doses and some time means better protection or fully vaccinated, but I didn't know that one dose wasn't considered an individual who had been vaccinated. I am new to the semantics of all of this I suppose.

It is weird to me that covid would be worse with so many people having shots for these upcoming waves.

 

[Corraleno]

27 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

I think one shot against covid still is more efficacious than the flu shot. If we are not seeing a dent in alleviating health care burden with more than half the population vaccinated, I think that's not good news. It should show up somewhere even if it's not eliminating the problem.

 If 90+ percent of hospitalizations are in unvaccinated people, how can you say vaccination is not making a dent in alleviating the healthcare burden? The fact that they're not dumping dead bodies in rivers or burning them in their backyard or wrapping them in trash bags and leaving them on the street, as happened when Delta/Beta/Lambda hit unvaccinated populations in India and South America, suggests that vaccination is making a pretty giant dent in alleviating the healthcare burden. If half the population of Florida is fully vaccinated, that still leaves 10 million unvaccinated people for covid to run through. Add in the fact that some small percent of even the fully vaxxed 10 million may have breakthrough cases, especially those who are elderly or immunocompromised and had a weak immune response to the vaccine, and that's a hell of a lot of potential hosts for an incredibly contagious disease.

Edited August 9, 2021 by Corraleno

[frogger]

32 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Except that we weren’t lied to. We were told “we are still getting information about this virus. We don’t know what percentage of vaccination we need exactly but let’s shoot for 70%“. A simple google seatch asking “what is the percentage needed for herd immunity “ will tell you that. The “we’re being lied to” thing is just an excuse not to use our brains. 

Well, I always thought it was unlikely we would get herd immunity. Historically speaking it was highly unlikely, but I will say when you are talking to the masses you make things clear and simple and extremely hard to shorten because journalists can do awful things to anything you say as anyone who has been coached about speaking to a journalist knows. 

The masses are often busy working and have very little background in science, statistics, and the like. They certainly can't afford to pretend to be epidemiologists all day long.

[ktgrok]

Part of the issue is that vaccination rates vary across the state. So we have some rural areas with very few vaccines, and high Covid rates. And people who are unvaccinated tend to be the ones going to bars, parties, concerts, etc. If half the population is unvaccinated and engaging in risky behavior, not masking, etc with a super contagious virus - that's a LOT LOT LOT of people catching Covid. 

That the other half isn't being hospitalized is a blessing, for sure, but half the population catching something is still enough to overwhelm hospitals. 

we need to do better. 

 

[regentrude]

1 minute ago, ktgrok said:

 And people who are unvaccinated tend to be the ones going to bars, parties, concerts, etc. If half the population is unvaccinated and engaging in risky behavior, not masking, etc with a super contagious virus - that's a LOT LOT LOT of people catching Covid. 

That is the really paradoxical thing: in my area (and probably elsewhere in the country as well), the unvaccinated folks are the ones partying in the bars at the lake of the Ozark, attending large gatherings, and mocking mask wearing. While most of the vaccinated people I know are again cautious with the new surge, diligent about mask wearing, avoid indoor gatherings and mass events. It is absurd.

[BronzeTurtle]

4 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

 If 90+ percent of hospitalizations are in unvaccinated people, how can you say vaccination is not making a dent in alleviating the healthcare burden? The fact that they're not dumping dead bodies in rivers or burning them in their backyard or wrapping them in trash bags and leaving them on the street, as happened when Delta/Beta/Lambda hit unvaccinated populations in India and South America, suggests that vaccination is making a pretty giant dent in alleviating the healthcare burden. If half the population of Florida is fully vaccinated, that still leaves 10 million unvaccinated people for covid to run through. Add in the fact that some small percent of even the fully vaxxed 10 million, especially those who are elderly or immunocompromised and had a weak immune response to the vaccine, and that's a hell of a lot of potential hosts for an incredibly contagious disease.

I meant in the overall strain on hospitals. If we have a certain percentage of people who have immunity from having had covid, plus millions in any given state who have gotten shots, and the waves that are happening now are worse than before, then that is discouraging to say the least. Only 30% of floridians have no shots at all (which I just can't agree based on what I've seen that one shot is not at all protective even if it is less effective), and then a smaller percentage of that number have no natural immunity at all, but icus are running out of beds and staff still. I say it's not making a dent because we're still overwhelming healthcare workers just like the same time last year when FL had their wave. If the peaks of cases are going just as high as last time and the peaks of hospitalizations are just as high and the peaks of deaths are just as high, even with vaccines and all the people who have had covid already, then that is very very grim.


 

[BronzeTurtle]

9 minutes ago, regentrude said:

That is the really paradoxical thing: in my area (and probably elsewhere in the country as well), the unvaccinated folks are the ones partying in the bars at the lake of the Ozark, attending large gatherings, and mocking mask wearing. While most of the vaccinated people I know are again cautious with the new surge, diligent about mask wearing, avoid indoor gatherings and mass events. It is absurd.

That's weird. How do you tell who has their shots and who doesn't? The only way I assume is because the college here requires them to attend so any college kids who are out partying like normal I assume are vaccinated. But they never really stopped partying last year, they just took it out of public view. I am fully vaccinated and living life back as normal again so some might assume that I'm not vaccinated because I don't take other precautions? That's an interesting idea. Do you think that is particularly true in the US? I wouldn't assume that it's true about most people I run into out in public.

Edited August 9, 2021 by BronzeTurtle

[ktgrok]

15 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

I meant in the overall strain on hospitals. If we have a certain percentage of people who have immunity from having had covid, plus millions in any given state who have gotten shots, and the waves that are happening now are worse than before, then that is discouraging to say the least. Only 30% of floridians have no shots at all (which I just can't agree based on what I've seen that one shot is not at all protective even if it is less effective), and then a smaller percentage of that number have no natural immunity at all, but icus are running out of beds and staff still. I say it's not making a dent because we're still overwhelming healthcare workers just like the same time last year when FL had their wave. If the peaks of cases are going just as high as last time and the peaks of hospitalizations are just as high and the peaks of deaths are just as high, even with vaccines and all the people who have had covid already, then that is very very grim.


 

Was it 70% of adults have had one shot (which is not great protection against Delta, sadly) or of total population?  

10 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

That's weird. How do you tell who has their shots and who doesn't?.

Because they proudly brag about not being vaccinated. 

[regentrude]

16 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

That's weird. How do you tell who has their shots and who doesn't? ...

I am fully vaccinated and living life back as normal again so some might assume that I'm not vaccinated because I don't take other precautions? That's an interesting idea. Do you think that is particularly true in the US? I wouldn't assume that it's true about most people I run into out in public.

In my area, 70%of people are unvaccinated. There is a very vocal opposition to masking, a lot of anti-vaccine rhetoric, and public places are packed with people. They didn't want to wear their masks before the vaccine came along, and they sure won't now.

I specifically said "most of the vaccinated people I know" are careful again. I am sure there are vaccinated people who live life as usual. But I am also absolutely certain that those are not the ones mocking or threatening mask wearers, rallying against mask requirements, spewing the mark-of-the-best nonsense, comparing vaccination to the holocaust. 

Maybe in your area, folks aren't as idiotic as here.
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/07/27/ozarks-lake-covid-unvaccinated-500784

ETA: I was, for a brief few weeks after being fully vaccinated, living life as normal, too. Went to one open mic and one poetry reading - before things exploded again. Now with a 7-day Covid incidence of 470 per 100k in my county and the hospital at capacity, you bet I wear a mask in stores and public places and avoid any indoor events that aren't necessary. Because the vaccine is not a 100% protection, but it is almost guaranteed that I will encounter infected people with it being so prevalent here at the moment.

Edited August 9, 2021 by regentrude

[Dmmetler]

42 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Part of the issue is that vaccination rates vary across the state. So we have some rural areas with very few vaccines, and high Covid rates. And people who are unvaccinated tend to be the ones going to bars, parties, concerts, etc. If half the population is unvaccinated and engaging in risky behavior, not masking, etc with a super contagious virus - that's a LOT LOT LOT of people catching Covid. 

That the other half isn't being hospitalized is a blessing, for sure, but half the population catching something is still enough to overwhelm hospitals. 

we need to do better. 

 

And, in Florida, some areas also have a lot of tourists who are doing things in groups, and while I'd hope people are vaccinated, many are not-if for no other reason than that Central Florida is a popular family destination, and no child below age 12 can be yet. For example, I have little doubt that almost every group at Legoland includes unvaccinated people, because it's a park which is much more appealing to younger kids and simply doesn't have the kinds of rides teens really enjoy. 

[Matryoshka]

1 hour ago, BronzeTurtle said:

It was here: FL at 71% of adults and NY at 76%

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/covid-19-vaccine-doses.html

I don't want to be spreading disinformation, so please help me out if I didn't link correctly or I'm reading this wrong.

I just looked at that article - in the charts, it says FL is 60%, and that's just one shot. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

57 minutes ago, frogger said:

Well, I always thought it was unlikely we would get herd immunity. Historically speaking it was highly unlikely, but I will say when you are talking to the masses you make things clear and simple and extremely hard to shorten because journalists can do awful things to anything you say as anyone who has been coached about speaking to a journalist knows. 

The masses are often busy working and have very little background in science, statistics, and the like. They certainly can't afford to pretend to be epidemiologists all day long.

I am actually not worried so much about “the masses”, if by that you mean lower income workers. I mean, I am worried about their health, but people working in those communities have found that local community outreach with support from local community leaders does more good than journalistic messaging and statistics. 
 

I am more worried by those, who at least on paper, have been educated but choose to inject politics into a health crisis and listen to only that information that goes along with their biases instead of really listening to health experts. No playing epidemiologist or statistician needed. 

[KSera]

 

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

That's ONE shot, not fully vaxxed, and we know that one shot is not very effective agent Delta. And FL has not been at 70% for long, there has been a big surge in vaccine uptake in the last couple of weeks, e.g.:

"In the week ending Wednesday [7/28], some 249,750 Floridians received their first vaccine dose, a USA TODAY analysis of CDC data shows. That number's up about 59% in just two weeks, from 157,350 first-dose vaccines administered in the week ending July 14." 
https://www.heraldtribune.com/story/news/coronavirus/2021/07/29/florida-covid-19-vaccinations-rise-amid-fears-delta-variant/5415208001/

 

Well that's a piece of good news in all this at least. It won't be in time for many of them, which makes it all the sadder, but in a few weeks, it will help. I don't expect we'll see the effect of that until most of them have gotten their second shot.

1 hour ago, BronzeTurtle said:

As far as I knew getting once shot was still considered getting vaccinated. I know that two doses and some time means better protection or fully vaccinated, but I didn't know that one dose wasn't considered an individual who had been vaccinated. I am new to the semantics of all of this I suppose.
 

One shot was much, much more protective with previous variants. For whatever reason, Delta evades a single shot much more easily. It still offers some protection, but not even close to the protection of two shots.

 

1 hour ago, BronzeTurtle said:

If the peaks of cases are going just as high as last time and the peaks of hospitalizations are just as high and the peaks of deaths are just as high, even with vaccines and all the people who have had covid already, then that is very very grim.
 

It is very grim indeed. They are going just as high because Delta is so much worse. If the entire population was unprotected, I expect we would have similar situations as in India--hospitals without oxygen, no beds, etc. Grim indeed.

58 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

That's weird. How do you tell who has their shots and who doesn't? The only way I assume is because the college here requires them to attend so any college kids who are out partying like normal I assume are vaccinated. But they never really stopped partying last year, they just took it out of public view. I am fully vaccinated and living life back as normal again so some might assume that I'm not vaccinated because I don't take other precautions? That's an interesting idea. Do you think that is particularly true in the US? I wouldn't assume that it's true about most people I run into out in public.

I see the same as what regentrude has observed. The people I know who are vaccinated are very concerned about Covid spread and have cut back their activities again, are masking in more highly protective masks, ordering groceries or curbside pickup, etc. The people I know who say they aren't concerned about catching covid and don't want to wear masks are the ones who aren't vaccinated. I know because they tend to be vocal about people being "hysterical" about covid and "unmask our kids" and all that.

[BronzeTurtle]

56 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Was it 70% of adults have had one shot (which is not great protection against Delta, sadly) or of total population?  

Because they proudly brag about not being vaccinated. 

I haven't encountered this in the world. It would be very weird and anti-social to me if people in I saw in the general public started telling me if they were or were not vaccinated, but probably especially proudly bragging about it one way or the other.

[TCB]

20 hours ago, rebot said:

So you're saying that a huge number of people in the control group must have been either dying from covid or there must have been a much larger group of them getting sick vs those vaccinated, correct? I'm curious, does anyone have any idea what those numbers are? What exactly constitutes astronomical.

Here’s what I don’t get, they already skewed the trial, why not replace the former control group with some of the millions that don’t want the vax? I mean they can say that’s not how it’s done, but they can’t really say that they are concerned about following typical trial protocol. By doing this they eliminated any way to measure the efficacy, effectiveness, or the safety of the vaccine. As a person who questions the safety of the vaccine, this doesn’t inspire confidence. I’d even say that, to me, it almost seems like they intentionally don’t want to have a group to compare to.

I just spent two days last week going over how to set up a good experiment with my fifth grader. We talked about variables, controls, observations, etc… Now I get to figure out how to find two different kinds of bird seed in a foreign country. Thank you for that fun tomorrow, Oak Meadow. I guess I should have been more impressed that he realized that if you get rid of your control group, you have nothing to compare your results to.

 

They already are the control group. I work in an ICU looking after seriously ill Covid patients. We have had many, many unvaccinated patients, and less than a handful of vaccinated, and all but 1 of the vaccinated have survived and left the ICU. Unfortunately many of the unvaccinated are getting intubated and quite a few have died. I am literally right there watching this unfold.

I just talked to a work colleague today, younger than me, I’m in my 50s, who had Covid about 6 months ago, and now is on oxygen full time, she was wheeling an oxygen cylinder with her. 
I’m just sick of hearing the endless downplaying of this illness. Honestly I don’t really know why I’m writing this because I really just want to give up trying to change anyone’s mind. I want to keep away from people, go into work and do the best I can, and when it’s so crazy busy I want to just let myself accept that what is going to happen is going to happen. And if there is ever another pandemic in my working lifetime I am going to hand in my notice the minute I hear about it.

[Jean in Newcastle]

2 minutes ago, TCB said:

They already are the control group. I work in an ICU looking after seriously ill Covid patients. We have had many, many unvaccinated patients, and less than a handful of vaccinated, and all but 1 of the vaccinated have survived and left the ICU. Unfortunately many of the unvaccinated are getting intubated and quite a few have died. I am literally right there watching this unfold.

I just talked to a work colleague today, younger than me, I’m in my 50s, who had Covid about 6 months ago, and now is on oxygen full time, she was wheeling an oxygen cylinder with her. 
I’m just sick of hearing the endless downplaying of this illness. Honestly I don’t really know why I’m writing this because I really just want to give up trying to change anyone’s mind. I want to keep away from people, go into work and do the best I can, and when it’s so crazy busy I want to just let myself accept that what is going to happen is going to happen. And if there is ever another pandemic in my working lifetime I am going to hand in my notice the minute I hear about it.

I know that this is too little too late but thank you for your service and sacrifice in taking care of these patients. 

[historically accurate]

1 minute ago, BronzeTurtle said:

I haven't encountered this in the world. It would be very weird and anti-social to me if people in I saw in the general public started telling me if they were or were not vaccinated, but probably especially proudly bragging about it one way or the other.

I find it weird, but I have run into it.

Last week, I had to go into Walmart, and as I was walking up to the door, I put on my mask. The guy who went in right behind me said to me, "You can be free in here if you're vaccinated." He then pointed to himself and said, "I'm going to be vaccinated today - wink, wink." and took off whistling. (Yes, he literally said wink, wink).

So, yeah, bragging about being unvaccinated and maskless. 

[Pen]

On 8/8/2021 at 1:49 PM, Halftime Hope said:

Yes, they have.  This is a joint statement from the FLCCC and the BIRD group, both of whom have peer-reviewed journal-published papers on the topic.  https://covid19criticalcare.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/FLCCC-BIRD-Guardian-Elgazzar-Study-FINAL-1.pdf  

I find it interesting that Andrew Hill (and underlings) who led the initial Unitaid metanalyses for the World Health Organization (he did multiple iterations) didn't find and call out the Elgazzar errors, as he was neck deep in the data and was corresponding with study authors all over the world. If the WHO culled out that study in the final few that were presented in their recommendation, this is precisely why they should have followed accepted methodology and stated their exclusion/inclusion criteria publicly and then followed it scrupulously, something they did not do. They opened themselves up for all kinds of valid criticism when they deviated from accepted methodology and didn't state their criteria for accepting or rejecting studies. A second valid criticism is that their conclusion absolutely did not match their data which, even with only a few studies, showed very promising results for ivermectin. 

Like the JAMA study from Cali, Colombia which was rife with study-design flaws, confounders, errors in labeling and dosing, and more conflicts of interest than should ever have allowed it to be published, the UK RCT is also designed poorly.  People can join that study up to 14 days post initial symptoms.  The study is unethical:  we know people do better when treated immediately, so to have an arm that does not treat is completely unethical. We also know that antivirals should be given early, and one of ivermectin's many mechanisms of action is as an anti-viral.  It does help later in the course of illness in people with more serious cases, but if the majority of outpatients are better by day 14 and you're not enrolling them until pretty late, it will tank the apparent efficacy of the drug just like it did in the Cali study.  

The Cali study showed 2 days shorter time to resolution of symptoms for ivermectin, and it did so WITH statistical significance, and this is a drug that passes 1) safety data, 2) availability, 3) ease of administration, and 4) cost criteria, yet the authors and by inference, JAMA, panned it. The widespread media takeaway was that "ivermectin doesn't work."   

By contrast, remdesevir was approved for EUA when the initial small studies showed 2 days improvement in duration of symptoms (my wording is not precise) but no death benefit, and it was only, in Fauci's words, "trending toward significance", NOT a statistically significant finding. Rmdsvr is associated with extensive adverse effects, has to be given as infusions in the hospital, was not widely available, and cost $3K, but it got approved.  To say that is a double standard is an understatement.   

So here's what people should know about ivermectin:  contrary to what is being said here on this board, it is effective.  You can choose what you wish to look at:  epidemiological data (what happens when it is rolled out widely in a country or geographical area), studies of all kinds except for RCTs, because the third world doesn't have the funding to do those and pharma has zero interest in investing in something it can't make a buck off, and you can look at case series and observational studies. There are doctors who are using it and they are having tremendous success.  It's unwise to dismiss out-of-hand all the doctors who are getting patients in on Day 7 or 8 or 10 who can't breathe, and turning them around two days, or the ones who have used it to treat 1200, or 800, or 1600 patients, out of whom 1 or maybe 2 have been hospitalized.  Many of these patients are ones who are coming in late, and they are still having success. It's also really unwise to write off the hospitals that are using it as a part of a comprehensive protocol and having death rates that are a fraction of what is in their neighboring hospitals.  

And yes, one of our moderators doesn't believe ivermectin works, and she has posted today about "protocols" (her air-quotes, indicating her disbelief). Well, these "protocols" are peer-reviewed, journal published, and the two that I'm aware of (there are more) are collaborations of doctors literally from all over the world. These are not just a fly-by-night invention of a single rogue doctor or even a small group of doctors with dubious affiliations. Doctors all over the world are using these medications and similar ones, because what works, works. Medicines that have anti-viral properties work on the viral phase of this illness. Medicines that are anti-coagulants, immune moderators, and anti-inflammatories (among them statins and steroids) work during the inflammatory stage of the illness. Medications that inhibit mast cell activation can help, too.  Even antihistamines and anti-serotonergics have their place.  

The doctors that I'm hearing talk about their treating patients are also treating long-COVID, and they are having success keeping their patients from getting long-COVID.  It's a win-win.

So, I would think that we would welcome all treatments that work, especially if they are safe, widely available, and cheap. Treating sickness with multiple drugs during the course of a particular disease is not new.  What is new is the terribly misguided advice and stance of the healthcare administrative types telling the ill to go home and do self-care until they are well or need to go to the hospital. This is even more true with delta, considering that the variant is better at spreading and replicating.  If some of our elderly and immune compromised are having breakthrough cases, wouldn't it make sense to treat and to both shorten the duration and mitigate the severity of the breakthrough? 

What most people don't understand, including some young people in medicine, is that medicine has always taken what seemed to be working and done as much good as possible with it, and then trialed it later to confirm or deny.  This new stance of "we can't do anything until we have an RCT", to the neglect of all the other signals, is baloney." Frankly, the only people benefiting from that stance are those who are making money in one way or another. 

If anyone wants to read up on this themselves, google "early treatment protocol" or other similar keywords.  YouTube is a wonderful source of de-monetized video channels 😉  with doctors talking about how they have treated COVID patients. As is Odysee.  And if you'd like an idea of just how many drugs there are that thinking doctors are using to treat patients, here is one link:  https://c19early.com/ 

And with this comment I'm going to quit beating my head on the wall trying to spread the really good news and constantly being told it isn't true. (this has been going on for weeks on this board.)

There is an efficacious way of treating COVID so it's not such a terrible illness, and it's worth trying not only for avoiding the misery and damage, but also for its success in cutting the incidence of long-COVID.  It will become even more important, I think, given the waning ability of anti-body infusions to help with the variants as vax efficacy also wanes. (See Israeli data.) We have to help the world, not just the people who can afford multiple boosters. 

 

 

 

 

 

With regard to all of above: Thank you.

 

With regard to the bolded italics added part: for reasons largely mysterious to me, there seem to be many persons here (nearly all? Most?) who not only personally prefer a vaccine with an apparently 40% or so benefit as seemed acknowledged out of Israeli stats at this point  (and substantial reports of adverse effects including on a Pfizer / BioNtec Own study - but which, of course people on here felt needed rebutting if not outright removal) 

prefer that to one or more repurposed older medicine(s)  with a 70% or so benefit  (and afaik less adverse effects) 

which is very understandable because to each his or her or its or their  own in terms of personal preferences, but also prefer to go beyond that to not want the alternatives even mentioned, moderators removing posts or portions of regarding alternatives or so forth

Maybe it’s like the allure of a new and shiny curriculum compared to some old boring classic?  🤷‍♀️   But while that can easily explain the personal choice, it  hardly explains wanting to stop referencing alternatives or indeed moderators removing such

 
 

I am done banging my head against a brick wall also 🙂🍀🕊 

[BronzeTurtle]

 

 

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

 

ETA: I was, for a brief few weeks after being fully vaccinated, living life as normal, too. Went to one open mic and one poetry reading - before things exploded again. Now with a 7-day Covid incidence of 470 per 100k in my county and the hospital at capacity, you bet I wear a mask in stores and public places and avoid any indoor events that aren't necessary. Because the vaccine is not a 100% protection, but it is almost guaranteed that I will encounter infected people with it being so prevalent here at the moment.

Oh, I think it is guaranteed I will encounter covid. But now I am protected from hospitalization to a crazy high degree and protected from death by covid to an higher degree than even that. So I am pretty much back to a pre-covid level of general living life risk even if I encounter it. My goal after vaccination was never to avoid encountering it. My goal was to get vaccinated so that I could encounter it without adding to the burden of healthcare providers. And I don't like getting sick either, but that's probably inevitable.

Are people going for vaccination and never encountering covid? I didn't realize that.

Edited August 10, 2021 by BronzeTurtle

[ktgrok]

15 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

I haven't encountered this in the world. It would be very weird and anti-social to me if people in I saw in the general public started telling me if they were or were not vaccinated, but probably especially proudly bragging about it one way or the other.

To the point they are adding "proud to be unvaccinated" frames on their facebook photos, wearing shirts that proclaim it, talking loudly about how dangerous the vaccine is, etc etc etc. 

 

3 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

 

 

Oh, I think it is guaranteed I will encounter covid. But now I am protected from hospitalization to a crazy high degree and protected from death by covid to an higher degree than even that. So I am pretty much back to a pre-covid level of general living life risk even if I encounter it. My goal after vaccination was never to avoid encountering it. My goal was to get vaccinated so that I could encounter it without adding to the burden of healthcare providers. And I don't like getting sick either, but that's probably inevitable.

Are people going for vaccination and never encountering covid? I didn't realize that.

If I didn't have unvaccinated kids at home, and there were not an entire community of unvaccinated kids, I'd be back to fairly normal(ish). But knowing I could spread it to my kids, or other people's kids, means I'm not. 

[BronzeTurtle]

48 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

I just looked at that article - in the charts, it says FL is 60%, and that's just one shot. 

I hate to keep quibbling on this, but I swear I saw 70% at the link provided for FL. I promise I'm not making it up or trying to inflate numbers. It wasn't the chart you just posted.

 

[ktgrok]

Just now, BronzeTurtle said:

I hate to keep quibbling on this, but I swear I saw 70% at the link provided for FL. I promise I'm not making it up or trying to inflate numbers. It wasn't the chart you just posted.

 

It might be the difference between pouplation vs adult population vs over 12 population. Different places count it differently.

[Matryoshka]

5 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

I hate to keep quibbling on this, but I swear I saw 70% at the link provided for FL. I promise I'm not making it up or trying to inflate numbers. It wasn't the chart you just posted.

 

Yeah, you need to include the headers to make sure you know what you're looking at.  ln the left column that chart shows one dose, 18+ are at 71%. That's not fully vaxed, nor the whole population, just adults.  The column on the right is % fully vaccinated (that's 59.3%), but again only for ages 18+.  None if these numbers includes children or adolescents, who are being hard hit in this wave.  So, to compare the cart I pasted with this one, 71% of people 18+ have one shot, but only 60% of the total population.  And 59.3% of 18+ are fully vaxed, so the % of total population that's fully vaxed is... much lower. I don't see that # in the article, but we can extrapolate a bit based on the ratio of the two #s 18+, it's... really low.

[Matryoshka]

18 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

It might be the difference between pouplation vs adult population vs over 12 population. Different places count it differently.

The charts have labels. One (green bars) is 18+ showing 1 vs 2 doses, the second (line graph) is whole population,  one dose only.

Edited August 10, 2021 by Matryoshka

[KSera]

39 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

I haven't encountered this in the world. It would be very weird and anti-social to me if people in I saw in the general public started telling me if they were or were not vaccinated, but probably especially proudly bragging about it one way or the other.

Before Delta, when people had stopped masking due to being vaccinated, it was fairly common to have someone tell me they were vaccinated to put me at ease about them not wearing a mask. Like, if someone came to the door, they might say, "I'm vaccinated, would you like me to wear a mask?" Or if I went to a neighbor's house to ask something with a mask on, the neighbor might say, "I'm vaccinated, if you'd rather not wear a mask." That kind of thing. I heard it a lot.

[BronzeTurtle]

3 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

If I didn't have unvaccinated kids at home, and there were not an entire community of unvaccinated kids, I'd be back to fairly normal(ish). But knowing I could spread it to my kids, or other people's kids, means I'm not. 

Are you the poster who had someone in their house travel to a different state recently on a plane? That's a pretty normal life thing to do. Not judging, but just to say that I guess we have different versions of normal so it's hard to compare. Normal is such a subjective word. If I had children or adults in my sphere that I was worried about for covid in particular I don't know that I could do planes right now for people in my household. But being vaccinated I would not be worried about my own health so planes would in theory not bother me, although I didn't like the germy re-breathed air feel before covid so maybe my tolerance is low to begin with. (also, apologies if I'm confusing you with someone else on the forum!)

In my area the healthcare system is not overburdened right now, my household is vaccinated and low-risk, and everyone who wants a shot in my community can get one same day, no appointment. Of course I owuld be staying home if I was feeling unwell or if my risk of getting severely ill was higher than with normal illnesses. For kids, when I look at the data in the UK and their wave that's just peaked I don't see a higher percentage of kids being hospitalized because of covid than last year. It seems like maybe less than with alpha but hard to tell. It does seem like rsv is a big concern for kids in my community and NICU or PICU strain. But again, of course I'm going to stay home when unwell.

[BronzeTurtle]

9 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Yeah, you need to include the headers to make sure you know what you're looking at.  ln the left column that chart shows one dose, 18+ are at 71%. That's not fully vaxed, nor the whole population, just adults.  The column on the right is % fully vaccinated (that's 59.3%), but again only for ages 18+.  None if these numbers includes children or adolescents, who are being hard hit in this wave.  So, to compare the cart I pasted with this one, 71% of people 18+ have one shot, but only 60% of the total population.  And 59.3% of 18+ are fully vaxed, so the % of total population that's fully vaxed is... much lower. I don't see that # in the article, but we can extrapolate a bit based on the ratio of the two #s 18+, it's... really low.

I think we're looking at different things entirely. I'm not looking at an article, it's a tracker where you can put in all sorts of parameters.

I do think that 70% or 76% respectively with some protection is pretty good, honestly, given the sheer amount of people we're talking about here. 

Can you explain where children are getting hit hard? I was just looking at the UK data and don't see what you're saying relative to case numbers that younger are getting hit hard. There are more people getting it total, but the actual percentage of young people with severe disease seems to be the same as in previous waves of covid.