Car seats reduce number of children?

[ElizabethB]

Interesting study.

https://reason.com/2020/10/01/do-car-seat-mandates-reduce-the-number-of-children-families-have/

It got me thinking of the dozens of threads here about what car seats to buy to get 3 kids across. Obviously, if everyone read more WTM threads, there would be more children!!

[Katy]

I'm not surprised by this at all.  Car seats even reduce the number of children foster parents will take in.  I've heard, "Nope, can't take another without upgrading my SUV to a van," more than once.

[ElizabethB]

4 minutes ago, Katy said:

I'm not surprised by this at all.  Car seats even reduce the number of children foster parents will take in.  I've heard, "Nope, can't take another without upgrading my SUV to a van," more than once.

We know a large homeschooling family that got a 20 year old limo instead of a van!!

[Moonhawk]

1 minute ago, ElizabethB said:

We know a large homeschooling family that got a 20 year old limo instead of a van!!

You have just found the most convincing argument for having another kid. BRB, gotta go talk with my husband....

[ElizabethB]

1 minute ago, Moonhawk said:

You have just found the most convincing argument for having another kid. BRB, gotta go talk with my husband....

They did get a lot of attention in the parking lot...

Large homeschooling family, unusual and interesting car.  It was actually cheaper than a van, too!! They just used 1 1/2 parking spots, pulling through, it was actually easier to park than a van.

[Laura Corin]

11 minutes ago, ElizabethB said:

They just used 1 1/2 parking spots, pulling through, it was actually easier to park than a van.

I certainly think that narrow British streets and on-street parallel parking would tend to discourage people from having large families.  The people I know with SUVs, for example, have private driveways or garages, which tends to be pricier housing. I know a couple of families with three children but none bigger.

Edited October 2, 2020 by Laura Corin

[ElizabethB]

7 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

I certainly think that narrow British streets and on-street parallel parking would tend to discourage people from having large families.  The people I know with SUVs, for example, have private driveways or garages, which tends to be pricier housing. I know a couple of families with three children but none bigger.

Yes, the European driving and parking situation does make it harder to have a larger car. 

We lived in Germany for 4 years. I had a VW Passat, my husband had a Miata, it was much smaller, both length and width. After 1 day of driving, I told him we needed to switch cars. The Passat was tough to drive on narrow streets and almost impossible for me to parallel park--my husband is good at parallel parking, I'm not, although I got better at it in Europe. 

There should be more passenger cars with a 3rd row, perhaps back facing that folds up and down.

[Moonhawk]

29 minutes ago, ElizabethB said:

They did get a lot of attention in the parking lot...

Large homeschooling family, unusual and interesting car.  It was actually cheaper than a van, too!! They just used 1 1/2 parking spots, pulling through, it was actually easier to park than a van.

I'd imagine it'd be easier to load kids in as well, with a more open area in the middle.

And, the icing on the cake: the window that goes up between the back and the driver. Bliss!

[katilac]

I always figured it was because a family with more than two children needs a second hotel room at Disney World . . . 

Seriously, I just don't see a bigger car as being the most expensive part of having another child (in the states). For certain people, yes, but not in significant numbers. 

45 minutes ago, Katy said:

I'm not surprised by this at all.  Car seats even reduce the number of children foster parents will take in.  I've heard, "Nope, can't take another without upgrading my SUV to a van," more than once.

I can see it being a big barrier for foster parents.

Edited October 2, 2020 by katilac

[mommyoffive]

True for us.  We have an 8 seater minivan. But really you can't get 8 people in there with cast seats.  We didn't want to do the increased cost of driving a big van.  

[Terabith]

I mean, it's not just car seats.  It's space in the car.  It's not like I could magically fit five children into my Toyota Corolla, even if they weren't in car seas, could I?  

But one of the reasons we only have two kids is because if we had a third, a lot of things would have become a lot less convenient.  Not impossible, but harder.  Car, hotel rooms, booths at restaurants, multi tasking/ dividing kids and adults....  Parenting suddenly changes from being a game of one on one to a zone defense.  

[SounderChick]

I can believe it.  Vehicle size had set our foster care limit.  Thanks to Diono we usually drive around in the Jetta despite having a suburban.

[BusyMom5]

I have 6 kids and I do think having more than 2-3 complicates a lot of things!  Cars, vacations, sports events, scouts- and it isnt just about money or space in the car- its time, too.  My car is currently full- no more room.  If we have another, we will have to get a 15 passenger van (or have a few kids move out or drive separately).  The logistics of big families takes a lot more prep to get it all done!

[Arcadia]

My aunt could squeeze 7 people in a Toyota Corolla (5 kids without car seat and seatbelts, 2 adults) while we could only drive 4 people (2 adults and 2 kids in car seats). I could seat on my aunt’s lap on front passenger side when I was a toddler (those were the days). 

[kiwik]

7 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

My aunt could squeeze 7 people in a Toyota Corolla (5 kids without car seat and seatbelts, 2 adults) while we could only drive 4 people (2 adults and 2 kids in car seats). I could seat on my aunt’s lap on front passenger side when I was a toddler (those were the days).

I have seen way more little kids and adults get out of a car than there was room for.  I could get 3 carseats in the back of my small car if they were set up correctly and the kids were loaded and unloaded in the right order.  I don't have a partner so I could take 4 kids provided one was not little.  I have heard people say no more than 3 because of car seats but that was only one factor really.

[lewelma]

I have a friend who paid $2000 to install 4 seatbelts across the back seat for 4 kids. Cheaper than buying a bigger car.

[JumpyTheFrog]

Considering how may families around here drive large SUVs despite only having 1-2 kids, I have my doubts that car seats make a big difference. I could see it having a small effect, but really, if the car seat issue is enough to dissuade you in the US, you probably didn't really want a third kid that much. (I can see people stopping at whatever number their minivan maxes out at to avoid getting a big van, though.)

[Tenaj]

2 hours ago, ElizabethB said:

We know a large homeschooling family that got a 20 year old limo instead of a van!!

My kids have been lobbying for us to buy a limo for years 🙂

[ElizabethB]

2 minutes ago, JanOH said:

My kids have been lobbying for us to buy a limo for years 🙂

I looked on my local Craigslist and there is a sharp looking 2011 Lincoln limo for $7,900. The family with the limo had a very faded paint job and was not sharp looking at all, but it was a reliable car for them.

[ElizabethB]

"No puke in car," LOL

The Limo ad:

2011 Lincoln Town Car Limousine. 
Fully loaded!! I am the second owner; the first owner was the Bellagio Hotel in Las Vegas NV. Meticulously maintained and cared for. Low, easy miles. Executive used, no drunks puking in it. Comes with new high end custom made California Car Cover. 
Expensive CNG fuel conversion; easy to fuel up and it is cheap; currently 2.15 per gallon. I fuel up at the sanitation company. Tires are 50-70%, runs excellent. I’ve only used it a few times for various family and high school events. Lots of money making potential!! Runs excellent!!

Edited October 2, 2020 by ElizabethB

[JumpyTheFrog]

I would think daycare costs would have a much larger effect on the number of children a couple has. Maybe this has already been studied.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Moonhawk said:

I'd imagine it'd be easier to load kids in as well, with a more open area in the middle.

And, the icing on the cake: the window that goes up between the back and the driver. Bliss!

“This is for the good of us all...”

Win-win...win-win-win-win-win-win-win-win...

[SKL]

I personally believe this was part of the reason they made some of the laws about "safety."

[mommyoffive]

3 hours ago, BusyMom5 said:

I have 6 kids and I do think having more than 2-3 complicates a lot of things!  Cars, vacations, sports events, scouts- and it isnt just about money or space in the car- its time, too.  My car is currently full- no more room.  If we have another, we will have to get a 15 passenger van (or have a few kids move out or drive separately).  The logistics of big families takes a lot more prep to get it all done!

Sp true.  And maybe even a bigger expense of moving to a bigger house.    That is were we are now.  We would not be thinking of moving if we had 2 kids.

[wintermom]

5 hours ago, ElizabethB said:

Interesting study.

https://reason.com/2020/10/01/do-car-seat-mandates-reduce-the-number-of-children-families-have/

It got me thinking of the dozens of threads here about what car seats to buy to get 3 kids across. Obviously, if everyone read more WTM threads, there would be more children!!

The abstract of this article is scary. The researchers need to bring in some social scientists and get a much broader understanding of family planning. Do they really believe that the only reason people stop giving birth after 2 kids because a car seat won't fit into a car?  Holy crap. These 2 men are from MIT and Boston College. Just flipping ridiculous.

[katilac]

3 hours ago, SKL said:

I personally believe this was part of the reason they made some of the laws about "safety."

You don't think that car seats actually increase safety? This is one of the topics where I think the data is clear and compelling. 

[Junie]

I remember we had to upgrade to a full-size van when I was expecting dd12 because we were going to need FIVE carseats at the same time and couldn't get them into our minivan.

I think the premise of this study is sad.  I personally don't believe in using birth control, but most of my friends (as is common in America) do.  Some of their reasons for not having more children: we won't be able to afford to go on vacation, dogs are easier to take care of, we won't be able to pay for college.

I know that getting a larger vehicle is a major financial struggle for some large families.  I know some families who have just used two vehicles (and/or multiple trips) until they could get a van.

[BakersDozen]

Quote

We know a large homeschooling family that got a 20 year old limo instead of a van!!

I saw a passenger van limo once and swooned over it. I only had 7 kids at the time, too. We fit in our 15-passenger very nicely even with 8 car seats thanks to Diono/Radian.

My dream vehicle is a shuttle bus.

[Ausmumof3]

This doesn’t surprise me at all.  Our decision to stop at three was somewhat car seat related.  (Dh really only wanted two and number three was kind of an accident but really the thought of upgrading to a minivan or people mover was a big part of that.

[KungFuPanda]

I think the increased car seat age makes it really hard for other people to help you with your kids.  If every kid has to be in a professionally installed car seat until they are almost 8, it REALLY cuts down on carpooling opportunities.  When I had my kids 20 years ago, most kids were out of car seats by the time they were school-aged and it was common to bring an extra kid home for a playdate after dance.  You can't really do that now until they're older. I can't really drive my nieces and nephews around because moving a seat to another vehicle just isn't done anymore.  

I did have an integrated car seat in one of my cars and that thing was great.  I thought there'd be more of them by now.  It didn't take up any extra room and you could easily get two adults in the back seat on either side of the child seat.

[Sk8ermaiden]

Most kids are not in "professionally installed car seats" until the age of 8. That age includes boosters, which nest easily between car seats, and are also easy to pass off to another family. (I see this being done every day at my job.) I was/am a fastidious car seat user, and kept my children rear facing for as long as they could fit, but they were both in boosters long before 8 (they did not spend all that long in a 5-point FF seat once they met requirements for a booster, since the safety between the two is the same, statistically, if the child meets the requirements for a booster.)

My best friend and I safely and fairly easily put three car seats across in both the back of my Nissan Frontier (and not the big cab one) and her Toyota Camry at least once a week before my youngest came along. It's not awesome, but it certainly wasn't that bad. (Unless you were pregnant - that would make it hard to get to the middle, but after you have a 4th kid, you're going to need a bigger car regardless of car seat laws.

Also, is this really, really what they are basing their idea off of?

Quote

"We find that when a woman has two children below the car seat age, her chances of giving birth that year decline by 0.73 percentage points," write Nickerson and Solomon, relying on U.S. Census Bureau data on the age and number of children for each woman surveyed.

Have they ever TALKED to a mom? Because I can tell you a dozen reasons the moms I know did not want another child with two below car seat age, and none of them had to do with car seats. Wanting only two kids would be the big #1, daycare costs at #2, and the general level of overwhelm with two littles at #3. I'm having a hard time believing this qualifies as research.

[Frances]

3 hours ago, Junie said:

I remember we had to upgrade to a full-size van when I was expecting dd12 because we were going to need FIVE carseats at the same time and couldn't get them into our minivan.

I think the premise of this study is sad.  I personally don't believe in using birth control, but most of my friends (as is common in America) do.  Some of their reasons for not having more children: we won't be able to afford to go on vacation, dogs are easier to take care of, we won't be able to pay for college.

I know that getting a larger vehicle is a major financial struggle for some large families.  I know some families who have just used two vehicles (and/or multiple trips) until they could get a van.

Interesting reasons for limiting family size. I’ve personally never heard any of those before. Although I did have someone tell me once they thought caring for a child was similar to caring for a dog. That was when she had a dog, but not a child.

[ElizabethB]

4 hours ago, wintermom said:

The abstract of this article is scary. The researchers need to bring in some social scientists and get a much broader understanding of family planning. Do they really believe that the only reason people stop giving birth after 2 kids because a car seat won't fit into a car?  Holy crap. These 2 men are from MIT and Boston College. Just flipping ridiculous.

 

50 minutes ago, Sk8ermaiden said:

Also, is this really, really what they are basing their idea off of?

Have they ever TALKED to a mom? Because I can tell you a dozen reasons the moms I know did not want another child with two below car seat age, and none of them had to do with car seats. Wanting only two kids would be the big #1, daycare costs at #2, and the general level of overwhelm with two littles at #3. I'm having a hard time believing this qualifies as research.

They are just looking at the correlation, and it is small overall, but anything that makes it more difficult to have another child could nudge someone in the direction of deciding not to, I could see how it could contribute.  

On the other hand, my mom has said only half jokingly that she would have had a 3rd child if they would have had sippy cups when my brother and I were little. There are some modern inventions that make raising a young child easier. (But less extended family, less family farms, other modern influences make it harder.)

[Tanaqui]

On the whole, wealthier people don't have as many children. People in wealthier nations don't have as many children as people in poorer nations. This is pretty consistent throughout history. The greater the odds that any one child will survive to adulthood, the less likely it is that you feel the need to have a dozen of them. If you can pretty much guarantee that all your offspring will make it, it makes more sense to have only a few children but invest more resources into each of them.

Car seats obviously slot into this trend - if you have more money to invest in your kids, it makes sense to start off with something simple and easy that will keep them alive longer.

But these dudes have their correlation backwards. Their methodology is sloppy.

[maize]

4 hours ago, Sk8ermaiden said:

Most kids are not in "professionally installed car seats" until the age of 8. That age includes boosters, which nest easily between car seats, and are also easy to pass off to another family. (I see this being done every day at my job.) I was/am a fastidious car seat user, and kept my children rear facing for as long as they could fit, but they were both in boosters long before 8 (they did not spend all that long in a 5-point FF seat once they met requirements for a booster, since the safety between the two is the same, statistically, if the child meets the requirements for a booster.)

My best friend and I safely and fairly easily put three car seats across in both the back of my Nissan Frontier (and not the big cab one) and her Toyota Camry at least once a week before my youngest came along. It's not awesome, but it certainly wasn't that bad. (Unless you were pregnant - that would make it hard to get to the middle, but after you have a 4th kid, you're going to need a bigger car regardless of car seat laws.
 

Boosters do not nest easily between carseats in my experience; having a car seat next to a booster can make it almost impossible to buckle the seat belt for the booster child.

[73349]

🙄

And would they like to ask the parents about diapers, potty training, feeding, meltdowns, or any other aspect of life with carseat-aged children? Or whether they are thinking ahead to the financial cost, time, and emotional investment of raising the kids all the way up through college? I take it they didn't look at the cost of health care or the duration of parental marriages/relationships? No, they just wanna make things up? Okay, then. Sure, everybody with fewer than three kids close in age is boo-hooing about car seats and vehicle costs.

Edited October 3, 2020 by Carolina Wren

[Carrie12345]

I do think it could be a factor in some families, but I don’t know about huge numbers. I did jump to a minivan from a sports car when #3 was born. We didn’t have to be wealthy to do that, it didn’t *have to be a minivan, and it wasn’t about car seats specifically, but bodies in general.  Still, it did take some money.

I do have a friend who’s considering child care costs in her spacing. She’s also car shopping. Car costs have nothing on child care costs.

I don’t know that I *would have had more kids, but our house size was definitely a factor in shutting the door. We were a few years over 40 by the time moving was a financial possibility.

When considering bringing two kids in through the foster system, we were making plans to move, I stopped considering going back to school, and I started researching vehicles with more space (no bulky car seats required, just a booster or two, maybe 3.). But that was all for going from 4/5 to 6/7. Not one to two or three.

[JumpyTheFrog]

1 hour ago, Carolina Wren said:

And would they like to ask the parents about diapers, potty training, feeding, meltdowns, or any other aspect of life with carseat-aged children? Or whether they are thinking ahead to the financial cost, time, and emotional investment of raising the kids all the way up through college?

One of my first thoughts was that if the car seat issue is enough to change your mind, you don't have the perseverance and/or money to raise a third child.

[wintermom]

I found another important flaw in the article, besides the OP's original statement that there are actually cars where 3 car seats/booster will fit. The number counts of children using car seats was based completely on age, rather than the child's weight. The car seat laws in the US are a combination of age AND weight. 

I think these guys just had to publish something and liked to crunch numbers.

[Clemsondana]

We're a 2-kid family, but once I had my second we got a car with a 3rd row of seats.  We lived an airplane flight away from our families, and when grandparents would come to visit I'd be the one to pick them up at the airport and do things with them during the day (take the kids to the bookstore or toy store, to the zoo, to their ball practice that the grandparents wanted to watch, etc) while husband was at work.  Once there were 2 carseats in the back, we couldn't fit an adult between them.  Actually, even once we moved within driving distance, I still often drove kids + 2 grandparents because its easier to go in one car than to have them follow me in their own car in an unfamiliar area.  And, since the kids are in car seats until they're at least 8, it's not like it was going to be a short-term problem that was easier to solve another way.  If they used simple booster seats it was less crowded, but I always had to buy expensive car seats because my kids were so tall that I couldn't stay compliant with the 5-pt harness age requirements in the cheap ones, and once I had bought the expensive convertible seat I wasn't going to not use it.  

Edited October 4, 2020 by Clemsondana

[73349]

15 minutes ago, wintermom said:

I found another important flaw in the article, besides the OP's original statement that there are actually cars where 3 car seats/booster will fit. The number counts of children using car seats was based completely on age, rather than the child's weight. The car seat laws in the US are a combination of age AND weight. 

I think these guys just had to publish something and liked to crunch numbers.

This is an interesting point given that children's weight for age has likely increased in the same time interval. My state is "8 years or 80 pounds," and I think that's typical.

And many parents move kids into a booster seat ASAP, so the difference in width is negligible.

Edited October 3, 2020 by Carolina Wren

[SounderChick]

8 hours ago, maize said:

Boosters do not nest easily between carseats in my experience; having a car seat next to a booster can make it almost impossible to buckle the seat belt for the booster child.

Very true. My bff went out and bought Diono radians for a 7 & 8 yr old because they couldn't buckle the boosters themselves with a car seat in the middle.

[Sk8ermaiden]

We always managed buckling the boosters OK, even with giant Graco myrides on either side, but I guess that depends on your booster/carseat/car situation. We were not dealing with large backseats.

[SounderChick]

The kids could buckle themselves in the back row of a van?  Its not that it wasn't possible but that an adult typically had to crawl back there and do it and I would not say that was always easy.  Not a big deal for an occasional trip but gets pretty old at every pickup.

4 hours ago, Carolina Wren said:

This is an interesting point given that children's weight for age has likely increased in the same time interval. My state is "8 years or 80 pounds," and I think that's typical.

And many parents move kids into a booster seat ASAP, so the difference in width is negligible.

We have no weight or age exception here anymore.  You have to be in booster until you are 4'9" tall and the seat belt fits properly.  

[Tanaqui]

Thinking on it some more, if your car is not big enough for more than two car seats, then it's probably not big enough for more than four passengers plus the driver. If you have two parents, then you can't fit more than three kids in the car to begin with, not unless you're buckling them in two to a seat. (I suppose one parent could stay home, but realistically, are you *always* going to do that? Anyway, if your child is small enough to need a car seat then they probably shouldn't be in the front.)

So, at most, this car seat dilemma keeps people from having... a single extra child.

Edited October 3, 2020 by Tanaqui

[Sk8ermaiden]

1 hour ago, rebcoola said:

The kids could buckle themselves in the back row of a van?  Its not that it wasn't possible but that an adult typically had to crawl back there and do it and I would not say that was always easy.  Not a big deal for an occasional trip but gets pretty old at every pickup.

We have no weight or age exception here anymore.  You have to be in booster until you are 4'9" tall and the seat belt fits properly.  

The oldest kid would climb in, an adult would lean over and buckle them, and since it was a small backseat in a camry or light truck, it was not a far reach and did not require crawling. Then the outside kids would be put in. We did so many combinations of buckets, ff and rf car seats, and eventually a booster. I wasn't speaking of vans where the back seat might be inaccessible to adults, since the "study" was about families not having more than two kids because of the car seat situation.

[maize]

59 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Thinking on it some more, if your car is not big enough for more than two car seats, then it's probably not big enough for more than four passengers plus the driver. If you have two parents, then you can't fit more than three kids in the car to begin with, not unless you're buckling them in two to a seat. (I suppose one parent could stay home, but realistically, are you *always* going to do that? Anyway, if your child is small enough to need a car seat then they probably shouldn't be in the front.)

So, at most, this car seat dilemma keeps people from having... a single extra child.

Which can be significant on a population-wide scale.

Most economists believe that a stable economy will be difficult to achieve if birth rates fall much below replacement level, which is generally considered to be 2.1 children per women. I think a slow decline in population could be manageable, and currently many countries make up for low birth rates through immigration, but countries with very low birth rates are in fact facing significant challenges.

What I think many never consider is that a replacement level birthdate depends on a significant percentage of women having more than two children--to make up for the fact that some women don't have any children, and many more women only give birth to one child.

Across the population, many individual women opting for or against that single extra child does matter.

Edited October 3, 2020 by maize

[hippiemamato3]

6 hours ago, Carolina Wren said:

This is an interesting point given that children's weight for age has likely increased in the same time interval. My state is "8 years or 80 pounds," and I think that's typical.

And many parents move kids into a booster seat ASAP, so the difference in width is negligible.

My 11.5 year old DD is finally just barely over the height requirement, but she is still under the weight minimum. Most parents seem to ditch car seats earlier though. 

[MercyA]

Anecdotal: A friend was told by a couple entering an abortion clinic that they were there because 1. their car was not big enough for another child and 2. they would not be able to afford vacations to places like Disney World if they had another child. I was there, but didn't hear the conversation myself.  So, yes, vehicle size was a consideration in that particular case. 😞 

Edited October 3, 2020 by MercyA

[hippiemamato3]

30 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Anecdotal: A friend was told by a couple entering an abortion clinic that they were there because 1. their car was not big enough for another child and 2. they would not be able to afford vacations to places like Disney World if they had another child. I was there, but didn't hear the conversation myself.  So, yes, vehicle size was a consideration in that particular case. 😞 

Those might have been the easy things to talk about.