Michigan on tighter restrictions and people are NOT happy

[melmichigan]

12 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Do you think Whitmer is forbidding clinical trials in Michigan for some reason?

Michigan hospitals are participating in a number of trials.  

https://www.henryford.com/whip-covid-19

https://www.macombdaily.com/news/coronavirus/detroit-hospital-systems-and-wsu-collaborate-to-bring-covid-trials-to-southeast-michigan/article_b7252c38-734b-11ea-9b6a-b314399aa2fd.html

https://www.uofmhealth.org/news/archive/202004/u-m-researchers-launch-wide-range-efforts-study-and-address

There were a lot of rumors on local news that they weren't allowing hydroxychloroquine when a letter went out to medical professionals warning about prescribing it to patients that weren't ill, or for family and such as a preventative, because there was such an uptick in numbers at local pharmacies leading to shortages for those already taking the medication for other conditions.

Edited April 10, 2020 by melmichigan

[kiwik]

7 hours ago, hjffkj said:

Wow. Not being able to do curbside pickup for those things is crazy. I guess some of it could still be delivered

It has been like that here for over two weeks.  You get used to it.  It won't be forever but dead is dead forever.

[Arcadia]

40 minutes ago, melmichigan said:

.  The issue has been the number of people that are wandering the home improvement stores and such, because they are bored.  I think there should be a middle ground with curbside pick-up of non-essential items, and I see the industry arguing for changes to that effect.  

Sounds like a slightly stricter version of Vermont’s restriction https://accd.vermont.gov/press-releases/agency-commerce-and-community-development-directs-“big-box”-retailers-cease-person

“

• Except in the event of emergencies threatening the health and welfare of a customer, showrooms and garden sections of large home improvement centers should be closed.  ”

[kiwik]

3 hours ago, lewelma said:

I can't comment on if this is the right choice for MI, but be aware the here in NZ, our lockdown is even tighter. 

ALL stores are closed except groceries and pharmacies (these are stand alone and not in a Walmart). 

ALL online shopping is closed (except groceries and liquor). 

ALL restaurants are closed and there is NO carry out at all. 

ALL driving is banned unless you are driving to the grocery store.

ALL airflights and ferries and trains have stopped. 

ALL parks are closed. 

ALL swimming, surfing, tramping, fishing, hunting is banned.

We are allowed to go for walks outside or bike as long as it is local.

 

Though the Warehouse and stuff are now allowed to sell essentials on line and I think the definition is a bit loose.  I bought a wifi booster with Ethernet port because 2 of our computers have to be connected by cable and and the modem is in the lounge so with on line school starting next week I thought setting the spare old one up in the kitchen would help - which will make things easier but I could live without and craft supplies seem to be included.  I cannot see why you can't survive a month at home without new clothes unless you have a super fast growing newborn and with the exception of a stove/washing machine/fridge actually dying I don't see many people needing to buy whiteware either.

But it is working and although today's number was disappointing statistically the improvement is clear.  And it really isn't that hard.  There is damage to the economy but to be honest I think a lot of it would have happened whatever the government had chosen. This way hopefully we will be able to start repairing the economy quicker.

Edited April 10, 2020 by kiwik

[Carrie12345]

It’s hard, because some decisions are just stupid while others are made to protect us from stupid people... like those who wander the aisles of Walmart and Lowes “because they can”. And now the rest of us (in many areas) can’t get what we need because they were unable to comprehend “essential”.

It is very true that the meaning of essential can vary from person to person. I know I’ve felt a little bad about getting things (even shipped or picked up) that weren’t food or medicine, but still served important purposes for my family. My feelings are based on the risks that retail and delivery people are taking to get *anything to us. But, for example, my many bags of dirt should eventually limit my grocery trips through the growing season which, even when restrictions are loosened, will continue to reduce everyone’s risks.

One of my biggest worries has been about getting “my” kids here from foster care. With all the delays, it may not wind up being a complicated issue by then, but I have no idea what they’ll need. Clothes for spring weather? (It snowed last night, lol.) Age appropriate toys? Devices for online school? Those things aren’t life-sustaining, but still incredibly important in that situation.

[Renai]

11 hours ago, Tap said:

As far as liquor stores.....severe alcoholics can die without alcohol. That is part of the reason for leaving them open.

Smoke shops, including cannabis shops, are left open due to addictions and not wanting people going off those products involuntarily to lead to domestic violence. 

People who are avid gardeners can work in their yard without new plants.  I understand the food chain and how planting a few weeks later will impact some peoples canning etc. People may have to delay planting (hard to do in areas with limited growing seasons). But food can be bought at a later date, if the plants don't have enough time to produce food. 

This does not take into account that the actual work of gardening or fixing things is the essential to mental health. I'm not talking about, it's just a bummer to buy food at the store. It can be life or death for some with depression in which these activities are an outlet that helps regulate mood. I have a person like that in my house. Working, whether in the garden or fixing things, reduces debilitating anxiety that would otherwise lead him to a path to wanting to commit suicide.

 

For others, not canning can mean a food shortage because that food is counted on as part of the food budget. How many can go out and have the money to buy quarts and gallons of missing food for their families? 

Let's not minimize the importance of these things. If people were loitering in the store, tell them to leave. There is nothing wrong with getting delivery or pick up to keep these things going, and to keep people out of the stores.

[PeterPan]

10 hours ago, Corraleno said:

covering up for failures."

Ohio newspapers are covering the contrast because the stats are pretty dramatic. It's definitely not just what day an order went into effect but a much bigger picture of a lot of things in the state.

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2020/04/michigan-coronavirus-case-numbers-crack-20000-nearly-four-times-ohios.html

[Arcadia]

6 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

It’s hard, because some decisions are just stupid while others are made to protect us from stupid people... like those who wander the aisles of Walmart and Lowes “because they can”. And now the rest of us (in many areas) can’t get what we need because they were unable to comprehend “essential”.

A lady was loitering at Target’s clothing section. A staff ask her to grab what she needed and go. She was angry with the staff. We were worried household appliances would get cordoned off eventually so we went to grab the items we need and didn’t want to wait for Amazon to deliver since we don’t have prime membership.

[Tap]

3 hours ago, Renai said:

This does not take into account that the actual work of gardening or fixing things is the essential to mental health. I'm not talking about, it's just a bummer to buy food at the store. It can be life or death for some with depression in which these activities are an outlet that helps regulate mood. I have a person like that in my house. Working, whether in the garden or fixing things, reduces debilitating anxiety that would otherwise lead him to a path to wanting to commit suicide.

 

For others, not canning can mean a food shortage because that food is counted on as part of the food budget. How many can go out and have the money to buy quarts and gallons of missing food for their families? 

Let's not minimize the importance of these things. If people were loitering in the store, tell them to leave. There is nothing wrong with getting delivery or pick up to keep these things going, and to keep people out of the stores.

But the person doing these things is at risk!!!!!!  Those people who are delivering are not fully protected. You are trading one person's exposure for another's.

I agree (with the ideas in your post), but that can be said about every single business that is closed. A person's whole life is wrapped up in a small business. Closing it is a very traumatic thing for them. For some people working out, keeps them focused on health goals. Going to a movie can save an alcoholic from going to a bar. Volunteering may keep someone from drug use. Physical therapy may keep someone moving or coping with pain, so they don't need pain meds.  Church is an obvious one. 

Every single business is a coping strategy for someone.  Where do you draw the line at what to close and what to leave open? 

Edited April 10, 2020 by Tap

[Jean in Newcastle]

I think that this is a variation of "this is why we can't have nice things".  Some people are using social distancing and are finding creative ways to do their job while still being safe and keeping others safe.  But there are others out there finding creative ways to find loopholes.  In my community people have been parking on the shoulders of roads because trailhead parking lots and trails are closed so that they can sneak in there and hike anyway.  The police are towing the cars and they are so shocked and dismayed that they are being towed because "I should be free to enjoy nature".  They just can't seem to understand that crowding into an area is the problem and that finding loopholes like that just makes this whole shutdown go on for longer.  I realize that walking on the trail is nicer than walking on the street but honestly can't come up with a lot of sympathy for the whining. 

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Ohio newspapers are covering the contrast because the stats are pretty dramatic. It's definitely not just what day an order went into effect but a much bigger picture of a lot of things in the state.

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2020/04/michigan-coronavirus-case-numbers-crack-20000-nearly-four-times-ohios.html

I'm not sure why you're citing that article as proof that Detroit's CV19 stats are the result of the governor's "failures." The article states that the Detroit metro area is much larger and much poorer than the Columbus metro area, and Detroit has an international airport that handled many passengers from China. How do those things represent "failures" of the governor? The graph in that article shows that the percentage increases for MI and OH have been virtually identical (and falling) since March 21st, so mitigation measures seem to be working in both states. 

You could do the same sort of stat comparisons with other states: Ohio has 2.5 times the population of Oregon but 5 times as many deaths, despite the fact that Oregon had confirmed cases much earlier and they have an international airport with many flights from Asia. Do the higher stats in Ohio represent "failures" on the part of DeWine? I don't think so. 

Edited April 10, 2020 by Corraleno

[kbutton]

15 hours ago, Cecropia said:

Anyone else feeling a little nervous that their own governor will be inspired to roll out similar restrictions?  I'm seriously tempted to run out and grab the soil and mulch we need within the next few days instead of waiting.

Dh made a funny joke - maybe they're gradually moving toward shutting down all the hardware store type supplies, because everyone is going to try and tackle those long-waiting home improvement projects, hurt themselves, and need to go to the hospital... Let's ban the sale of power tools, stepladders, box cutters...

Today's errands involve the last of the seeds we need for our garden, just in case.

But, I thought lockdowns would be more strict originally, and we had most of what we absolutely needed gardening-wise very early on as a result--we were actually out of town and still anticipating that this would hit the fan at some point, and I wasn't sure what all I had left from the previous year's seeds. So, I missed a few things. 

I am curious to see what DH says about stores when he gets home--he said people here have been distancing, acting polite, etc. I don't know if the limit on the number of people in the store at a time will significantly add to his errands today or not, or if he'll have trouble finding seeds, but he is looking for the seeds at the grocery store, not Walmart of Lowe's.

I have mixed feelings about the tighter restrictions in MI just because they are really truly uneven, and because gardens = food for many poor or rural families. Also, gardening has the potential to produce much fewer trips to the store for some folks; for others, it will mean they can pick up just a few groceries locally vs. driving an hour (or more) away for things not available locally (think about Kinsa's posts from Big Bend...). 

I am hoping OH does not follow suit in such a sweeping manner. I can imagine cordoning off parts of Walmart but then making those nonessential items be curbside pick up only. To me, that would be a reasonable compromise. It would be more on par with restaurant takeout while also making sure that limits on the number of folks in the store don't result in a lot of people waiting outside in lines while shopaholics browse for fun.

[livetoread]

My overall sense from the data I’ve seen thus far is that shutting down early was something that certainly helped, but some areas also have had good luck so far, and some, bad luck. Maybe one area had a super spreader while another didn’t. Maybe one person’s decision to stay home and another’s to hug a friend mattered. Someone got routed through Detroit instead of Columbus and sneezed in the airport.

I don’t blame Whitmer and applaud DeWine, though probably DeWine shutting earlier helped. Shoot, DeWine exempted religious gatherings including weddings and funerals, and churches can still meet in OH though they are encouraged not too. So far no clusters are traced to that afaik, but it was a risky decision. So Ohio is lucky that way. So far. At this stage I see some of the spread as butterfly effect. 

[Murphy101]

I saw this coming bc I’ve been watching other countries about once a week for some time now. Not daily bc that’ll drive a gal nuts but about once a week I’d go see the latest measures. With rare exceptions most countries are doing the same thing and following a very similar trajectory of lockdown measures. Essentials only. Essentials restricted in various ways. Only so many people in building, hours reduced, strongly push delivery/curb side.  Then ripping off non essentials in stores, no electronics or toy or clothing sections. Usually still order online tho. Then same thing for hardwares and autos. Less times, less numbers, less available inside. Then they close entirely. 

Eventually it reaches a point where only one person per household can leave for groceries/meds once a week and nothing else. Nothing else will be open to go to anyways.

And as the hospitals get more ragged, and the trucks carrying the dead out become more frequent, people no longer care at all about those restrictions and are at a point of getting full on enraged that anyone would leave their home for anything other than food and meds. 

While the leadership manner of implementing may look like there’s no plan - I’m seeing such a clear pattern that I don’t believe that’s the case at all. They are doing it incrementally to avoid panic and rushing and so that most people can get their needs met.

If it means we won’t have convoys of trucks full of dead bodies being hauled off - I’ll cope with it. 

Edited April 10, 2020 by Murphy101

[Pen]

7 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I'm not sure why you're citing that article as proof that Detroit's CV19 stats are the result of the governor's "failures." The article states that the Detroit metro area is much larger and much poorer than the Columbus metro area, and Detroit has an international airport that handled many passengers from China. How do those things represent "failures" of the governor? The graph in that article shows that the percentage increases for MI and OH have been virtually identical (and falling) since March 21st. 

You could do the same sort of stat comparisons with other states: Ohio has 2.5 times the population of Oregon but 5 times as many deaths, despite the fact that Oregon had confirmed cases much earlier and they have an international airport with many flights from Asia. Do the higher stats in Ohio represent "failures" on the part of DeWine? I don't think so. 

 

I think that while some Oregonians were involved in parties at beach and other behavior totally unacceptable in an epidemic / health emergency, a lot of Oregonians started personal “Physical Distancing” much earlier.  Well before government restrictions.  Governor started closures and restrictions apparently because of citizen clamor and imploring, and closed schools because kids and teachers were staying home from school, not the other way around. Governor was reluctant to close things.  But citizens, health authorities, and a former governor who is a doctor were all imploring need for closures.  And closures were at a point when just a few doublings would have swamped medical. 

There was certainly  Not universal approval from citizens, but enough citizens wanting the craziness stopped because just personal isolation doesn’t work if a few individuals are putting others at needless risk.  

I feel kind of bad that on these threads I at one point gave possibly wrong impression when I had said I was still allowing my son to do social things.  I did not make clear that he was doing things in a way that the kids themselves had worked out substantial limitations on—3 person groups when there were no official restrictions yet.  And in a rural area where avoiding groups of strangers is way easier than in a dense urban area. There came a point when it was clear that even two person get together was too much at a point when rule was, idk, 50 people—and also that he was a legal adult so that until I felt like I had enough justification to say “I know you guys tried to work out safe ways to get together, but it isn’t enough from my POV—so you need to choose between live at home and stay home except for life and death essentials, or move elsewhere” or “I can’t stop you from doing ___, but if you do that you may not come back again until Covid19 is over.”   (Lots of anger and door slamming and being told how unfair and ridiculous I was being over that, but ultimately he went along with it.) 

 

 

[Corraleno]

7 minutes ago, Pen said:

I think that while some Oregonians were involved in parties at beach and other behavior totally unacceptable in an epidemic / health emergency, a lot of Oregonians started personal “Physical Distancing” much earlier.  Well before government restrictions.  Governor started closures and restrictions apparently because of citizen clamor and imploring, and closed schools because kids and teachers were staying home from school, not the other way around. Governor was reluctant to close things.  But citizens, health authorities, and a former governor who is a doctor were all imploring need for closures.  And closures were at a point when just a few doublings would have swamped medical. 

There was certainly  Not universal approval from citizens, but enough citizens wanting the craziness stopped because just personal isolation doesn’t work if a few individuals are putting others at needless risk.  

I agree with this, I think Oregon has faired extremely well, at least so far, because the populated areas were for the most part voluntarily cooperating with social distancing well before the official shut down on the 23rd. DeWine shut down with far fewer cases, and yet still has higher rates of infection and death, but I don't think the responsibility for that falls on him in any way. I think he was extremely proactive, but different states have different demographics, and governors can only do so much if the population is unwilling.

[Janeway]

I think the quarantine orders have gone too far. I think most stores should be allowed to re-open. I tried to go to Walmart today to get craft supplies for my children. Nope. Not only was the huge parking lot packed to the back but the next parking lot was being used too with people having to cross the road to get to it. It is crazy. I really have changed my tune and think the government has gone too far. 

[ktgrok]

I think not allowing gardening (and fishing/hunting) is short sighted. Months from now we will still be dealing with this virus, and if people have food at home they grew, that is less trips to the store! Fishing is free food without exposure (if you are not an idiot). Etc. 

And home improvement can be a matter of health/safety as well. 

Curbside pick up only, fine. But if you are leaving the store open (so still exposing employees) then I think veggies are as essential as mcdonalds. 

 

[Pen]

 

40 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

, at least so far,

 

Yes, and “so far” is always a critical caveat in this situation. 

 

[Pen]

Ate there any legitimate issues with home improvement supplies besides wandering around stores, such as  that it leads to increased  accidents that could need medical attention? 

I know someone who fell off a ladder while painting for example. 

 

 

[kristen18]

Looks like she might be dealing with a protest soon if she keeps it up. Extraordinary actions require extraordinary proof. The models were outrageously wrong. I give them the benefit of the doubt for the first couple of weeks. The evidence is mounting that this virus has been around longer than they originally thought, but they surely know now.   

Edited April 10, 2020 by kristen18

[Pen]

16 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

It's not just individual families growing a few tomato plants that get their supplies from big box stores.  All those CSAs and people in the stands and the farmers markets and the U-pick produce places and the giant pumpkin farms that host fall festivals and hay rides.....they all buy their supplies from big box stores too.  It's not just home gardeners that will feel the effects, but all the small businesses based in agriculture or landscaping. 

My family buys freezer meat from a farmer.  He's not a giant factory farm, just a guy in rural Indiana who raises cows, pigs, chickens, turkeys, large veggie crops and even sunflowers, and sells all that stuff at farmers markets and online.  That's his business.  He has pictures on his facebook page of rows and rows and rows of veggie starts under grow lights in his barns.  And he buys his supplies for all those veggies.....................at Lowes. 

 

 

Would not necessarily need to go in though.

Could be that Lowe’s workers would be outfitted with protection gear, even if homemade by residents of their area, then in relatively empty, physically distanced stores, the workers could get together orders (perhaps a bit slower than self serve, but could be done) and then deliver and as much as possible keep clear if the recipient.    Can’t probably keep totally clear for a replacement washing machine going indoors. But as much as possible.  Distance plus protective gear.  Garden and farm supplies could be perhaps put from delivery truck into recipient’s vehicle hood or truck bed if any.

 I guess apartment buildings would be hard, but there’s still probably ways to do it . 

[marbel]

2 hours ago, Tap said:

But the person doing these things is at risk!!!!!!  Those people who are delivering are not fully protected. You are trading one person's exposure for another's.

I agree (with the ideas in your post), but that can be said about every single business that is closed. A person's whole life is wrapped up in a small business. Closing it is a very traumatic thing for them. For some people working out, keeps them focused on health goals. Going to a movie can save an alcoholic from going to a bar. Volunteering may keep someone from drug use. Physical therapy may keep someone moving or coping with pain, so they don't need pain meds.  Church is an obvious one. 

Every single business is a coping strategy for someone.  Where do you draw the line at what to close and what to leave open? 

Right, it's impossible.

I don't envy government leaders who have to make these decisions. Because people are going to be angry no matter what. 

I am baffled by the notion that buying plants and gardening supplies is considered less essential then liquor, but... someone is making these calculations. And when tasked with calculating the response to the specific threat of this disease and how best to protect people, adding in the nonspecific threat of mental illness maybe being exacerbated for some people because they can't garden... I don't know how I would make that decision. And don't think that means I don't take mental illness seriously - I do. I'm just saying the decisions are not easy. 

Tap's question (bolded) is spot on. Where is the line?  I wouldn't feel comfortable drawing it. 

[Lanny]

41 minutes ago, Pen said:

Ate there any legitimate issues with home improvement supplies besides wandering around stores, such as  that it leads to increased  accidents that could need medical attention? 

I know someone who fell off a ladder while painting for example. 

 

If they are in the same store where Food is being sold, the virus can cling to the surface for varying periods of time, depending on the surface of the object. If someone touches clothes or shoes or a TV set or as you mentioned, home improvement supplies, and then goes to the food section and touches things, that IMO, is NOT a good thing to have happening. I believe those stores should only allow people to be where the Food is (and also Toilet paper, etc.) and those other non-food items like clothes and TVs should be off limits during this pandemic. Especially if other stores who sell those other non-food items are closed at this time. 

[Janeway]

1 minute ago, kand said:

I think a packed Walmart parking lot is precisely a sign of why the government is having to get more restrictive. If Walmart is packed, the current restrictions aren’t working and that is causing them to need to close more things. People should only be there for necessities. 

 

It is not about the restrictions working...define this. Are the restrictions just there to control the people? Or the disease?  People still need things to function. Life cannot simply stop. A packed Walmart does not show that the restrictions are not working on the disease. 

[kristen18]

18 minutes ago, kand said:

I think a packed Walmart parking lot is precisely a sign of why the government is having to get more restrictive. If Walmart is packed, the current restrictions aren’t working and that is causing them to need to close more things. People should only be there for necessities. 

I don’t doubt there are CSAs somewhere that work that way, but none of the ones I know. They save their own seeds and/or order from specialty supply places, and those orders have all been placed by this point. 
 

Which  Isn’t actually to say that I agree with not letting people buy gardening supplies. I think there should be a way for people to get the supplies they need to grow food. Preferably curbside pick up.  I had wanted to have veggies planted by this point myself, and haven’t been able to do to it due to not meeting the stay at home requirements in my area.

What do you mean by the last sentence? How long do you think it’s been around? I’m getting the impression that because social distancing measures are looking to have significantly flattened curves most places, people are thinking that means the measures weren’t required in the first place. Which was a predicted outcome of successful social distancing – – that people would think it was an overreaction. But the fact that we are still dealing with significant outbreaks, some large enough to overwhelm local hospitals, despite most people being under stay at home orders, should be pretty sobering. Without those orders, the story right now would undoubtedly be incredibly different.

The R0 was already being suppressed due to herd immunity, before the lock downs. 

[katilac]

3 hours ago, Tap said:

But the person doing these things is at risk!!!!!!  Those people who are delivering are not fully protected. You are trading one person's exposure for another's.

They are doing curbside delivery, which is quite low-risk imo. Somebody please chime in if I'm wrong. 

 

 

[marbel]

6 minutes ago, Dotwithaperiod said:

 Maybe it’s got something to do with the lobbyists? Which ones have the most influence? Is the liquor lobby influential, more so than the lumber lottery? And I have no idea if there are lobbyists for those, I just know some wield a lot of power.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, I don't know. But it does make sense. 

Or, government officials are stumbling trying to figure this all out. Just like colleges did last month. My two kids' schools had parents complaining no matter what they did. There was no way to make everyone happy. 

[Arcadia]

20 minutes ago, Dotwithaperiod said:

 Maybe it’s got something to do with the lobbyists? Which ones have the most influence? Is the liquor lobby influential, more so than the lumber lottery? And I have no idea if there are lobbyists for those, I just know some wield a lot of power.

 

6 minutes ago, marbel said:

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, I don't know. But it does make sense. 

Liquor tax would be a factor too, it is good revenue to the state https://www.taxadmin.org/assets/docs/Research/Rates/liquor.pdf

[catz]

14 minutes ago, katilac said:

They are doing curbside delivery, which is quite low-risk imo. Somebody please chime in if I'm wrong. 

 

 

Delivery is lower risk for everyone including store workers.  Getting more people out of stores is better too.  I'm surprised more businesses haven't upped their ability to do curb side contact free pick up or contact free delivery.  All our pick ups and deliveries have been pay online and contact free.

Garden centers are going to be open in our state.  I'm actually getting ready to order some contact free delivery from a local farm.  

[Guest]

Here, there is an excemption on any non-essential business being closed if they can do contact free pickup or delivery. That makes sense to me. Maybe something like Instacart could deliver seedlings and garden supplies? 

 

@Janeway-Oriental trading was able to deliver craft supplies quickly for me. They are limited to what is in their warehouse in the USA, but are still well stocked, especially for Spring/Easter type stuff. 

[mumto2]

I have become a huge believer in restrictions by county not in general for an entire state Or country.   I have to say super stringent restrictions in the UP are sort of humorous.unless one lives there. The people there are already spread out!  Seriously haven’t the people in charge driven over the Mackinac Bridge?  My elderly oldest brother lives literally in the middle of woods all by his lonesome and I glanced at this and thought he will now not be able to resist pushing back in some manner.  I think fishing is an issue, hoping he will pick that as he can do that in front of his house.   So you have the people who will not be able to resist violating and doing something they wouldn’t have two days ago,   the list just got long.  Certain people will feel the need now to violate......and I am related to some of them.😕

Another thing I am concerned about is some people may prove to be really hard to get back out of a hard lockdown.  Sending people into hard lock down in many parts of MI is no different from Yorkshire (other than Northern England actually does have cases in places......want to add I know very well there are cases in Northern Mi, just not at the magnitude that I am seeing surrounding my village). In my U.K. village there is a huge concern because a surprising number of our elderly have literally barricaded themselves in the house.  There are no cases in that village at this time  btw.  Refusing to sit in gardens, open windows, etc in some rather hot beautiful weather for there.  All of which are allowed.  These people do not own a fan much less AC.  Summer coming is a worry.  These people are not accepting groceries either......it is a concern that is growing.  Nothing is allowed in by this rather odd voluntary group.  Medications etc......  No way to evaluate how well they are doing, do they have food, and these are known individuals that are refusing to cooperate with known friends.  This is something I had not expected.........

People do not act as anticipated frequently...........
 

 

 

Edited April 10, 2020 by mumto2

[Corraleno]

50 minutes ago, kand said:

What do you mean by the last sentence? How long do you think it’s been around? I’m getting the impression that because social distancing measures are looking to have significantly flattened curves most places, people are thinking that means the measures weren’t required in the first place. Which was a predicted outcome of successful social distancing – – that people would think it was an overreaction. But the fact that we are still dealing with significant outbreaks, some large enough to overwhelm local hospitals, despite most people being under stay at home orders, should be pretty sobering. Without those orders, the story right now would undoubtedly be incredibly different.

This is a "talking point" being pushed by certain elements in the media as well as groups like the Hoover Institute. They are claiming that the virus has actually been circulating for far longer than we know, and far more people have been infected without realizing it, therefore:
(1) the actual death rate is much much lower than we think and it's really not any worse than the flu, and
(2) we are already getting close to herd immunity, the rate of infections and deaths was already going to go down on without a shut down, and the shut down is destroying the economy for purely political reasons (to damage the president and prevent his reelection).

[catz]

13 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

This is a "talking point" being pushed by certain elements in the media as well as groups like the Hoover Institute. They are claiming that the virus has actually been circulating for far longer than we know, and far more people have been infected without realizing it, therefore:
(1) the actual death rate is much much lower than we think and it's really not any worse than the flu, and
(2) we are already getting close to herd immunity, the rate of infections and deaths was already going to go down on without a shut down, and the shut down is destroying the economy for purely political reasons (to damage the president and prevent his reelection).

And you know what?  I do think there have likely been outbreaks longer than we've been talking about this.  When Seattle's situation first came out they said it was probably circulating at least 6 weeks prior.  It just hadn't hit a vulnerable population where the deaths were going to stand out.  Hospitals were filling in Wuhan by mid December.

But again, without broad and fast testing and anti-body testing in place there is no way to prove this or make any public health decisions based on it.  We had every opportunity to be screening and testing incoming travelers MUCH sooner.  

ETA and to be clear, I don't think we're anywhere near herd immunity numbers.  But I also don't think the current testing numbers in most areas likely reflect anything close reality either.  And as I mentioned earlier, the current testing protocols used are prone to false negatives.  

Edited April 10, 2020 by FuzzyCatz

[Carrie12345]

51 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Weed trimmer wire

 

Man, you HAD to remind me, eh?  I will need lots of wire. The stilt grass will be coming back soon. It’s a horrible fire hazard, and grows like something out of a horror movie! If my whole neighborhood lets it go, we’ll be swallowed up!

[Laura Corin]

43 minutes ago, kand said:

The restrictions are to control the spread of disease. It’s spread person to person. The greater number of people interacting, the more it will spread. If Walmart is packed, it will spread to more people than if Walmart is sparsely populated. People are going out for things not required. If only essential shopping is happening, the stores will be much less crowded.

Yes. We are pretty much only able to buy food, drink, medication and petrol. When son went into a pharmacy to pick up a prescription, they asked him at the door what he needed. Areas such as makeup were roped off.

I've not seen any problems with crowded carparks or shops. Everyone is doing infrequent food errands, and petrol, and that's it for shopping.

Edited April 10, 2020 by Laura Corin

[Corraleno]

16 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

And you know what?  I do think there have likely been outbreaks longer than we've been talking about this.  When Seattle's situation first came out they said it was probably circulating at least 6 weeks prior.  It just hadn't hit a vulnerable population where the deaths were going to stand out.  Hospitals were filling in Wuhan by mid December.

But again, without broad and fast testing and anti-body testing in place there is no way to prove this or make any public health decisions based on it.  We had every opportunity to be screening and testing incoming travelers MUCH sooner.  

Oh I agree it's been circulating slightly longer than we thought, and the lack of testing has been a disaster (magnified by the ridiculous restrictions imposed by the CDC which meant we missed so many of the early cases of community spread). But I don't think we're anywhere remotely close to herd immunity, or that the actual fatality rate is no worse than the flu, or that the number of cases would already be going down without any mitigation measures. 

[kristen18]

34 minutes ago, kand said:

The restrictions are to control the spread of disease. It’s spread person to person. The greater number of people interacting, the more it will spread. If Walmart is packed, it will spread to more people than if Walmart is sparsely populated. People are going out for things not required. If only essential shopping is happening, the stores will be much less crowded. 

Do you have a reference for this? I haven’t seen anything to indicate we are anywhere even remotely close to having enough people infected for herd immunity to kick in yet. 

As far as something official, there is a paper out of Germany this week. Google covid 19 study Germany. There is nothing "official" here yet, but the person I read is doing the math that shows we're lining up with that as well. I'll send you a PM, this guy is a math whiz, but I think this board would find his language offensive....

[QueenCat]

1 hour ago, Janeway said:

It is not about the restrictions working...define this. Are the restrictions just there to control the people? Or the disease?  People still need things to function. Life cannot simply stop. A packed Walmart does not show that the restrictions are not working on the disease. 

 

Humans choosing to get unnecessary things at crowded stores are humans that are saying they don't care if more people die. 

[Arcadia]

3 hours ago, Janeway said:

I think the quarantine orders have gone too far. I think most stores should be allowed to re-open. I tried to go to Walmart today to get craft supplies for my children. Nope. Not only was the huge parking lot packed to the back but the next parking lot was being used too with people having to cross the road to get to it. It is crazy. I really have changed my tune and think the government has gone too far. 

Have they started limiting the number of people inside Walmart at your location?

When they started limiting the number of people at the stores here, we end up lining up about 30mins to get into Target, Trader Joe’s, Costco etc when we would previously have gone in and out in that time. Since the store is letting a person in as a person come out, that makes the lining up time longer. Trader Joe’s is small enough that we could grab and go and ask the staff if we can’t locate something. Target and Costco are larger stores and sometimes the goods aren’t at their usual location so people end up going through all the food and cleaning aisles to locate the stuff they wanted to buy or pick alternatives. 

Edited April 10, 2020 by Arcadia
Typing

[Janeway]

1 minute ago, Arcadia said:

Have they started limiting the number of people inside Walmart at your location?

When they started limiting the number of people at the stores here, we end up lining up about 30mins to get into Target, Trader Joe’s, Costco etc when we would previously have gone in and out in that time. Since the store is letting a person in as a person come out, that makes the lining up time longer. Trader Joe’s is small enough that we could grab and go and ask the staff if we can’t locate something. Target and Costco is larger and sometimes the goods aren’t at their usual location so people end up going through all the food and cleaning aisles to locate the stuff they wanted to buy or pick alternatives. 

Sounds like people are being exposed more during their wait times than they would have been if left alone. Also, if other stores were left open, like Hobby Lobby, Michaels, Joannes, JcPenney, people could get things they need there. Clothes, things to maintain our homes, appliances, etc, they are all needed. Very few businesses contain nothing that is needed at all and now, the very few select places left open are getting very crowded.

[Janeway]

13 minutes ago, QueenCat said:

 

Humans choosing to get unnecessary things at crowded stores are humans that are saying they don't care if more people die. 

What is unneccesary though? What if our child needs a computer or paper to do their work? Or clothes? When this all started, it was still rather cold in many places. A lot of people need clothes for the hotter weather. Penney's carries appliances too. Hobby Lobby carried fabric. Who decides what people really need and not? Because merely existing is not enough and quality of life is affected beyond the value of quantity for some. And now, the very few stores that are being allowed to stay open, all big business owned ones, are overcrowded and probably causing more infection rather than less.

[Laura Corin]

9 hours ago, Janeway said:

Sounds like people are being exposed more during their wait times than they would have been if left alone. Also, if other stores were left open, like Hobby Lobby, Michaels, Joannes, JcPenney, people could get things they need there. Clothes, things to maintain our homes, appliances, etc, they are all needed. Very few businesses contain nothing that is needed at all and now, the very few select places left open are getting very crowded.

We queue with two metres between us.  And have a different definition of 'need'.

Edited April 11, 2020 by Laura Corin

[Janeway]

6 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

We queue with two metres between us.  And have a different definition big 'need'.

The line I was in two days ago had employees with no marks just inches from me. I would like to hear about you all's definition of need.  Because in the spring, there is all sorts of maintenance to be done to homes that if left ignored can lead to all sorts of extensive repairs being needed as well. 

[kiwik]

2 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

It's not just seeds. (though if you have them on the way, that's great because right now, seeds and plants are actually about as scarce as TP was a month ago)

It's top soil.  It's herbicide.  Fertilizer.  Replacements for busted blades.  Fungicide.  Sprinklers and other watering and irrigation supplies.  Weed trimmer wire.  Hedge trimmers, and on and on and on.  

And yes, curbside pick up or delivery, that's COMPLETELY understandable to restrict to that sort of thing.

But that's now what I understand the MI order to mean.

But for all you know they are sorting out some sort of arrangement for farmers right now.  Here farmers would be buying essentials from a farm supply place but you have a different system.  Things change and just because right now there isn't provision doesn't mean there won't be next week.

[kiwik]

2 hours ago, katilac said:

They are doing curbside delivery, which is quite low-risk imo. Somebody please chime in if I'm wrong. 

 

 

Going to work and being with other people is a risk in itself.  If one person at the workplace brings the infection in it can spread to all others and then to their families.  If one of those families has an essential worker or someone working elsewhere then it can spread to their workplace and then out to their families.  Or to the supermarket 

[kiwik]

40 minutes ago, Janeway said:

What is unneccesary though? What if our child needs a computer or paper to do their work? Or clothes? When this all started, it was still rather cold in many places. A lot of people need clothes for the hotter weather. Penney's carries appliances too. Hobby Lobby carried fabric. Who decides what people really need and not? Because merely existing is not enough and quality of life is affected beyond the value of quantity for some. And now, the very few stores that are being allowed to stay open, all big business owned ones, are overcrowded and probably causing more infection rather than less.

But really you don't.  You are staying at home 98% of the time at least.  If it is hot wear your underwear and a light top.  If it is cold put on what you have and if still cold wrap a blanket round your shoulders.  Be creative and use what you have.  Go out for groceries as infrequently as possible and if you do desperately need something (your washing machine dies or all your kids suddenly need their own devices) then order on line and accept it may take a few weeks.  I think part of the problem you are having is your groceries seem to come from places that sell a lot of other stuff.  Here supermarkets sell a little stationery, a few small appliances and a few packs of undies and socks but otherwise just groceries, cleaning stuff etc.

[kiwik]

33 minutes ago, Janeway said:

The line I was in two days ago had employees with no marks just inches from me. I would like to hear about you all's definition of need.  Because in the spring, there is all sorts of maintenance to be done to homes that if left ignored can lead to all sorts of extensive repairs being needed as well. 

We have marks 2 m apart.  Your house should not fall apart if you do not do stuff right now.  Need as in the UK is food and medicine.  Nothing else.  In NZ a few places have been allowed to open on line now to sell clothes, bedding (we are going into winter), and appliances.  But really people should be able to wait for most things and the shops are just trying to get round the restrictions for the most part.

[Matryoshka]

1 hour ago, Janeway said:

What is unneccesary though? What if our child needs a computer or paper to do their work? Or clothes? When this all started, it was still rather cold in many places. A lot of people need clothes for the hotter weather. Penney's carries appliances too. Hobby Lobby carried fabric. Who decides what people really need and not? Because merely existing is not enough and quality of life is affected beyond the value of quantity for some. And now, the very few stores that are being allowed to stay open, all big business owned ones, are overcrowded and probably causing more infection rather than less.

Clothes?  Clothes????  Who needs new clothes when you're not ever leaving the house?  Most people have a zillion more pieces of clothing than they will ever need.  It's old and ratty - who cares?  Who's going to see you? No one needs to update their wardrobe for this this year's fashions!  Did you throw out all your summer clothes from last year?? Heck, I was watching an interview with some fashionista from Vogue or somewhere who also worked with runway shows, and the interviewer asked if they were wearing pants, and she said - well, sweatpants.  If the designer folk are hanging out in their sweats...  I will freely admit to wearing yoga pants every.single.day.

Even with growing kids - if they absolutely have no hand-me-downs and t-shirts/shorts can't be worn one more year (I usually could get at least a couple years out of those, even with growing kids...), buy them a couple of things in the next size online. I just saw Kohl's is offering 'order online, and we'll come out and put it in your trunk.' - or, they also do deliver to your door, like almost all other stores. There is no freaking need to go shopping in a physical store for clothes right now!

Gardening supplies - yes, I actually do think those are necessary, even more so now than in other years.  Curbside pickup.t 

Edited April 10, 2020 by Matryoshka

[melmichigan]

5 hours ago, Janeway said:

What is unneccesary though? What if our child needs a computer or paper to do their work? Or clothes? When this all started, it was still rather cold in many places. A lot of people need clothes for the hotter weather. Penney's carries appliances too. Hobby Lobby carried fabric. Who decides what people really need and not? Because merely existing is not enough and quality of life is affected beyond the value of quantity for some. And now, the very few stores that are being allowed to stay open, all big business owned ones, are overcrowded and probably causing more infection rather than less.

It's not about what's necessary, it's about what is essential.  It's a short period of time for one to be arguing quality of life versus quantity, seriously, a month?  The 38 year-old mother of four, and special education teacher that lives a block over from me spent days on a vent.  Her husband dropped her off at the ER, and hoped he'd get to pick her up. You're worried about clothes for the season? I just cannot wrap my head around your thinking, at all.

Edited April 11, 2020 by melmichigan
to much personal information