Making the decision to be done having kids permanent...

[abba12]

I don't post much here anymore, but I wanted some outside perspective and I'm not sure where else I would find such a broad array of opinions, rather than the two extremes I am exposed to in my daily life. 

When DH and I got married we believed in having a large family. We both grew up homeschooled, he was one of 8, I was one of 5 and we grew up with lots of anti-birth control families. Our anti-birth control stance changed when I had HG in my pregnancies followed by an inability to breastfeed, and we realised a back-to-back pregnancy could kill me, so we began spacing but we still fully intended to have a large family. 

We had three beautiful babies as well as one miscarriage in the middle. And then it all went wrong. Two miscarriages, then a ruptured ectopic pregnancy that, due to it's unusual circumstances, could have killed me. And after having to wait 6 months for the ectopic medication to clear my system (we actually waited 9 or 10 to be absolutely sure) we tried again, only to be faced with an immediate miscarriage again. And then, nothing. Despite trying and tracking and everything possible, absolutely nothing for over a year. I know a year of trying can be perfectly normal, but all 8 of the previous pregnancies were conceived within 1-3 cycles of not-trying-too-hard, so for my body, that's telling me something is very wrong. 

We thought about going through medical means to conceive again, but we realised there were a number of problems with it. Not least of which being, only one of my 4 miscarriages was confirmed in a doctors office, which means they'll discount the others, and they might give me fertility medication but they won't even consider the miscarriage issue until I have a couple more under their care. I can't do that, I can't go down that path knowing I will most likely lose another baby or two before they even think about addressing the secondary issue. I can't choose to force the conception of a baby I don't think will survive. 

On top of that my youngest is now 4. I always said I never wanted large spaces between my children, right from the beginning. There is a huge difference, to me and in my mind, between adding on a new baby when you've got a toddler, and starting right back at the beginning with a new baby when your kids are all school age and you've passed that stage of life (and realistically, my youngest would probably be 6 before a sibling were born at this point). Some women do it, and do it well, and I take my hat off to them. But I don't think I'm one of them, I don't think I can do it.

So I do strongly believe we're done having children now, I've spent the past 6 months grieving this and learning to accept a new chapter of my life and a new vision of my family.

The thing is, my DH said he would support whichever route I took, but that, if we were done, he wanted to be DONE, and get the snip. Neither of us do well with change and surprises, and he can't stomach the thought of accepting it's over and then in a few years time being thrown into babies and pregnancy again. I know he's right, I agree with him in theory. But actually saying 'yes, ok, lets make this final, book the appointment'  is really hard and I feel like I can't do it.

It's made harder by the fact I'm currently surrounded by women who think we should just keep going unprotected and 'see what the Lord brings', they don't seem to understand my fear of another miscarriage. Or ones who say 'you might want to start again in a few more years when your kids are older', because they see my worry about spacing as trivial at best, and selfish at worst. 

I say that, and I can defend my decision here, but in reality they have me doubting myself. What if I do want to start again later, as an older mother? What if God does want me to keep persisting and have the large family he convicted me of all those years ago? What if making the final decision turns out to be a terrible, horrible mistake?

My solution was to keep using protection for now, until I felt more at peace. But that was all shattered last week during a... rather boisterous tea party, and protection slipped off without DH realising until it was too late. He didn't cope well, and is indicating he now wants to abstain until I make a final decision either way, whether it's contacting the baby doctor or the vasectomy doctor, he is no longer comfortable with my 'we're done but haven't made sure' stance.

I'm just so scared it's the wrong decision or I'll regret it later, I know inside I'm done, I feel sick with fear that our little mishap could result in a pregnancy and I don't know how I'll cope if it does (I'm nearly certain it hasn't, I'm one of those people who gets symptoms within a few days, so I think we're in the clear). My emotional reaction in itself should be enough to tell me we're ready to make this decision permanent, because I never ever thought I would look on a potential pregnancy with fear or praying for it to not happen. I guess my beliefs have changed a lot since those earlier years when I believed we should have a large family, and that's a factor too, have my beliefs changed or am I ignoring what I believe because it's now uncomfortable? I want to say all those loses and then the unexplained infertility is our sign from God saying we're done, but the idea of actively preventing any more goes against everything I used to think. 

I don't know, I'm confused, and I think I know the right answer, it's just been so hard to accept and so far from where I thought we would be. I guess I want to find a way to feel better about it.

I had my kids young, and as much as another pregnancy scares me, having all my children be adults before I'm 40 scares me too! I'll be an empty nester when many women are only just beginning their families. I never really imagined that, I kind of imagined transitioning smoothly from motherhood to grandmotherhood, I have no intentions of having a career post-kids, so now the prospects of my 40s scare me a lot as well. Nothing is what I imagined, and making a permanent decision, even if I think it's the right one, seems too much and too overwhelming for me.

[jewellsmommy]

Your latter paragraphs seem to say all that needs to be said: "....I know inside I'm done, I feel sick with fear that our little mishap could result in a pregnancy and I don't know how I'll cope if it does....."

I understand your concerns, though, about making it final. We had infertility and managed to conceive one. I had to have a hysterectomy at 36 and that's pretty darn final. I started out wanting several children, but I am total peace now. 

I will be 40 when dd turns 18. There are wonderful blessings about starting the empty nest years while only 40! I figure I will be able to start a new career, enjoy some light travel, enjoy my grandchildren with a little energy left, etc.

Pray on it, make the decision and live with it. See how it feels to say out loud, "we're done. Honey, schedule your vasectomy." If either of you feels distress as the procedure approaches then you can always cancel it. I have usually found peace once I finally gave myself permission to make that decision. I put off that hysterectomy for a long time, even though deep down I knew we didn't want to start all over with a preteen or teen. I felt better once I decided.

You two need to do what's right for you and your family. Don't worry about what the others around you are urging (or me! or anyone else here either). Enjoy your family!

[Tap]

If you have an OB I would likely start there.  You think the doctor will discount some of your miscarriages, but it is also likely that the OB will take you seriously.  There are several reasons for miscarriages that are treatable, but it will require being under a doctors care before and during conception to get testing/treatments. 

I understand not wanting large spacing between kiddos, but if you have a gap and then a few more children, it won't really be any different than if you had a child in between that 4 year span.

If you are questioning if you are done, I wouldn't do anything permanent.  Especially since it sounds like you are fairly young still.

(((((HUGS)))))))

[nixpix5]

My DH and I were in a similar situation. I cannot direct you but I will tell you our story. 

We had two beautiful sons when we were incredibly young. I had two miscarriages and he and I were both in college in STEM and very career driven. We decided we needed to stop having scares and we were tired of the back and forth about if we would or not. We too didn't want huge age gaps and it was already out of my comfort zone. We thought a decision of finality would be best. He got snipped. 

I was fine at first. As I started my career and realized the idol that was my education really wasn't as meaningful as my family I started to regret. My boys would launch well before 40 and I started seeing myself with another identify where I wasn't a mom and I was horrified. 

I sat my DH down and told him. He was angry. He felt like a failure and felt betrayed but at the end admitted he only felt that way since he too was having regrets. 

We began the adoption route internationally but the time of wait and uncertainty caused us to back out.

The fertility treatment that followed was grueling on both of us but worth it. We ended up with 3 precious children I wouldn't trade for the world. The age gap is huge between them and their brothers (15+ years) and it has been like having a second family. It was the best decision I ever made to have them even though I had a pregnancy disorder that was high risk. 

I wasn't prepared for feeling that yearning all those years later when I was sure previously. I would not have made the decision to have him get the vasectomy had I known how much my desire for a baby would take hold. My wanting of a baby got so bad I felt bitter every time someone announced a pregnancy. I did not at all like my heart during that time. 

Just make sure you both put a lot of thought into it and even if there is just a seed of uncertainty, maybe seek other birth control options to give you more time.

[klmama]

I can't tell you what to do, but I can give you a cyber ((hug)) and tell you that I know several people who conceived and bore more healthy dc after having had many miscarriages, once they had the specialized care they needed for their particular situations.  Why do you think the doctor will discount the miscarriages you had while not under medical care?  Has he/she actually said that?   

 

[Scarlett]

(((Hugs)))))

[EMS83]

Lots of hugs.  I'm so sorry.  First, don't listen to those ladies.  Seriously.  Or us.  Listen to your gut.  DH and I weren't even of the same mind and it undid me.  I knew it would, but "submit to your husband."  He'd rather I'd spoken out than gone along with his inclination.  And all the helpful ladies around me were very clear that even three was nutty.  Your situation is different, though.  If you already chart, are you guys open to the fertility awareness method where you abstain during the fertile days?  It requires faithful BBT readings, and abstaining just at the time your body will tell you not to, but it's not permanent.

If you're feeling bad about "contributing" to conceiving babies that don't survive, don't.  It's not in your hands.  I only mention it because I know I'd be inclined to feel culpable.

If it's just knowing what to do with yourself when your kids are grown, that will come.  I'm working my way toward gardening, hobby livestock, and rough carpentry.  ?  Your interests may be different, but as they get a bit bigger, you'll have a little more time to develop them bit by bit.  Or discover what they are in the first place.  ?  I was only interested in Bible study and mommying for several years there.

With nixpix, uncertainty on either side should be a big red flag to not rush into anything permanent.

More hugs!

[Scarlett]

There is a lot to consider.  Everyone life is different.  I mean obviously......lol....my biggest regret is waiting so long to have my first because he turned out to be my only  ( until my bonus kids came along as step children) .

i was obsessed with becoming pregnant again after Ds but it never happened....mostly because xh would not cooperate....strangely the instant I made the decision to divorce xh that VERY strong desire for another baby completely disappeared.  I was glad because it is a terrible feeling when you want a baby and can't have one.  

Which leads me to my next thought that sometimes the desire for another baby, can sometimes be a distraction for other areas of our life we aren't happy with ( and not just bad marriages either). 

 

[Rachel]

(((((Hugs)))))

My situation is very different but I grieved being done after 3 children.  You sound ready to be done and if you are, that’s okay. I hope you find peace with whichever route you decide.

[Katy]

We're struggling with the same decision right now.  Wisdom says we're done with bio kids. Neither of us feel strongly enough about it to make the decision that we're done, but we both feel like we probably should...  but it's hard.

I had trouble conceiving and miscarriages for the last 5 years, I'm currently in my second trimester. In our case I think I wouldn't have decided to adopt a foster infant if we'd had a young child at the time, and the delay was divinely planned for that reason. I also figured out some genetic stuff at the same time with the help of 23andme - I needed to be on a low histamine/lower protein diet and on baby aspirin to stop the miscarriages. At the same time, this is a high risk pregnancy and I'm not sure I'm not ready to be done having bio kids anyway.  Mostly because what would we do with the kids if something happened in a pregnancy and I needed to be hospitalized or even put on bed rest for a while? Also, while we're close to a really great hospital with a good NICU now, realistically we won't stay here for long.  Most locations DH's company is in are several hours from good hospitals, and we typically only stay in one location 3 years. It seems unwise risk for me to take a risk like that when there are a lot of infants who need parents right now due to the opioid epidemic. The week I found out about this pregnancy I got 6 calls to take newborns.  It seems like we can continue to adopt as many kids as we want as long as we're willing to go through it again.

Having said that, it's not as simple as just taking home a baby that's yours.  You have to be attached for their sake, but unattached to the outcome for almost a year, because what's best for the baby is their mom getting through rehab and deciding to parent. And you never know if a half sibling is going to turn up, or they'll discover who the father is and he'll have responsible family who wants to raise the child.  And babies born addicted are medically risky, tend to have colic and GI symptoms, and can have serious issues issues with development and attention.  Issues like vision, hearing loss or intellectual disability that might mean we need to plan for life long care. And the foster process isn't a cakewalk either.  There are constantly people dropping by to check on the baby and make sure we're fit parents. There are lots of appointments and specialists and early intervention therapy and court dates. But still, if we feel especially gifted to deal with all that uncertainty, wouldn't we better be serving God and the world by doing that again rather than having another risky pregnancy?  I don't know the answer yet, but I know which one seems more wise. I wish the Lord would just give us peace one way or another, but I'm afraid this is a decision we might have to make on our own.

[Scarlett]

57 minutes ago, Katy said:

We're struggling with the same decision right now.  Wisdom says we're done with bio kids. Neither of us feel strongly enough about it to make the decision that we're done, but we both feel like we probably should...  but it's hard.

I had trouble conceiving and miscarriages for the last 5 years, I'm currently in my second trimester. In our case I think I wouldn't have decided to adopt a foster infant if we'd had a young child at the time, and the delay was divinely planned for that reason. I also figured out some genetic stuff at the same time with the help of 23andme - I needed to be on a low histamine/lower protein diet and on baby aspirin to stop the miscarriages. At the same time, this is a high risk pregnancy and I'm not sure I'm not ready to be done having bio kids anyway.  Mostly because what would we do with the kids if something happened in a pregnancy and I needed to be hospitalized or even put on bed rest for a while? Also, while we're close to a really great hospital with a good NICU now, realistically we won't stay here for long.  Most locations DH's company is in are several hours from good hospitals, and we typically only stay in one location 3 years. It seems unwise risk for me to take a risk like that when there are a lot of infants who need parents right now due to the opioid epidemic. The week I found out about this pregnancy I got 6 calls to take newborns.  It seems like we can continue to adopt as many kids as we want as long as we're willing to go through it again.

Having said that, it's not as simple as just taking home a baby that's yours.  You have to be attached for their sake, but unattached to the outcome for almost a year, because what's best for the baby is their mom getting through rehab and deciding to parent. And you never know if a half sibling is going to turn up, or they'll discover who the father is and he'll have responsible family who wants to raise the child.  And babies born addicted are medically risky, tend to have colic and GI symptoms, and can have serious issues issues with development and attention.  Issues like vision, hearing loss or intellectual disability that might mean we need to plan for life long care. And the foster process isn't a cakewalk either.  There are constantly people dropping by to check on the baby and make sure we're fit parents. There are lots of appointments and specialists and early intervention therapy and court dates. But still, if we feel especially gifted to deal with all that uncertainty, wouldn't we better be serving God and the world by doing that again rather than having another risky pregnancy?  I don't know the answer yet, but I know which one seems more wise. I wish the Lord would just give us peace one way or another, but I'm afraid this is a decision we might have to make on our own.

Boy isn't this the truth.  Wow.  I have never seen anything like it.  We seem to have an unusually high number of friends who are fostering....just in our small congregation there are 4 families who have adopted through the foster care system and one of those is on a second set of siblings that they think will be permanent additions to their family. Every single one is because of drugs.  So bless you and your dh for being willing and able to provide those kids temp or permanent homes.

[Scarlett]

I also wanted to add that you never know what is going to happen down the road which is why it might be good to delay any final solution until late 30s, unless medically YOU as the mom shouldn't carry another one.  One of my really close friends had 3 kids....when she was pregnant with the 2nd her husband completely changed.  It was a drastic, life altering change.  The 3rd was an oops and she did not feel in that situation she should keep adding babies so she got her tubes tied because he wouldn't get snipped. Less than a year later she was forced to divorce him.  At this point she was only 32!  Of course she still felt that with 3 kids and a single mom she was done.  THEN less than a year after she divorced him she married one of my childhood friends.  He had never had bio kids (raised 2 step kids to adulthood) and he very much wanted one.  I mean obviously it didn't stop them from getting married and he is raising her kids and they are very happy....but when she made the decision to be 'done' she could have never imagined how her life would turn out and that the day might come she wished she wasn't 'done.'

Of course, it seems like that is nothing like the situation the OP is faced with...and most of you are closer to 40 than 30 and already have many kids....I do think that makes a difference...especially if you have special needs kids or medical issues of your own.

[wintermom]

Many hugs to you and your dh. All those miscarriages and serious risks to your life have got to be difficult for you and your dh. It sounds like you are both very wise and thoughtful people. It speaks volumes to me that your dh is that serious about no children now that he's willing to abstain. He has looked in the face of possibly losing you on more than one occasion and he doesn't want to do that again intentionally. 

Take each week, month and year as they come, and try not to dread something 20+ years down the road based on your imaginings of how scary that may be. It's not so bad to be over 40 with older dc. The dc need me just as much now as when they were little. We grow into our lives as they unfold over the years. 

[fairfarmhand]

First of all, I've been where you are. I just have 4 but thought when we started that I'd have a dozen. But I found that parenting infants and toddlers completely drained me. I was depressed, overweight, never wanted to leave the house with 4 under the age of 12. 

My oldest is a...complicated....person. Parenting her at 13 was horrible, and I knew I could not be the mom she needed me to be, school her the way she needed to be schooled while pregnant and nursing and dealing with another child. I decided that parenting the kids I had needed to take priority over my mythical dreams. She would have needed to go to school if I came up pregnant again.

When my youngest was 3, we made our final decision.

I think you know what you need to do, but lack the courage to do it because of the what-ifs. 

Your concerns about spacing, meh. That really isn't a deal breaker to me, but as you said, having others dismiss that is different than feeling it yourself. To bring another child into the world YOU need to be okay with a large space in between.

My advice is to go with a long term birth control option like an IUD. That should give you several years to decide. Just take it off the table for awhile. In the meantime, find an OBGYN that LISTENS to you and cares about your feelings and thoughts. Take the option off the table and enjoy your family as it is for a few years. Every year on the anniversary of the IUD insertion, take a week or two to talk to your DH and see if anything has changed. At the 5 year mark, you can make a new decision. 

However, when it comes to figuring out what God wants, I've been around some people who trust God for their family size. I admire their faith and courage, but I do believe that God allows us free will when it comes to this part of our lives, just like he allows us free will when it comes to who we marry and what we do with our lives. The best book I've ever read about God's will is Just Do Something by Kevin DeYoung. Please get a copy and read it. It may help you figure out where you stand with God's intervention in the life of man. It's sort of geared to young people trying to figure out their lives, but it has such valuable theology in it that I think it will help you determine a Biblical foundation for your thoughts on this issue.

WRT to your concerns over the empty nest...Know that many many kids don't leave the nest at 18. Not because they are immature. Mostly because they need to work hard, going to college and living on campus is VERY expensive, and they still need parental and family support up into their early 20s. The landscape of the world has changed so much. 

And I, like you, thought that my older kids would not need me so much in their late teens and early 20s but now I see that they really DO! I see some families where the older kids are more like independent adults, but most of them, the kids need mom and dad a LOT when they're older. My oldest two would not be doing well without their mama to listen to them, remind them of stuff, feed them, etc. Of course, if I were to keel over tomorrow, they would cope, but they still have great needs that would go unmet. So don't think that just because your youngest kid would be technically 18 that you would be facing a truly "empty nest."

I also have had to reevaluate what I want to be when my kids grow up. I had kids younger and I'll be 46 when my youngest is 18. After the grueling years of teenagers, I really AM looking forward to doing things for myself, having my house clean, supporting my husband to a greater degree. I also see so many things in the church and community that go undone because so many families are 2 income. I look forward to volunteering, working part time, writing, having my house clean (yeah, I said that before. I can't wait!) 

It's going to be hard for you to picture what the next 15 years are going to look like and how you are going to feel at that point. you've not yet had teens, not yet faced the roller coaster and stress and demands that they place upon you. I love my teens, and enjoy them more than I did infants and toddlers, but they are much more emotionally needy and that sucks a lot out of you. That point means that the empty nest years, while I'm sure they will be bittersweet in some years, may not be as sad as they may allow me freedom to do things I always wanted to do.

Don't forget that you may be facing elder care issues, assisting one of your kids in caring for grandkids. There's so much to do, and if you're in your 40s you will be able to do it, even without those imagined kids that you'd hoped to have. 

Don't let peer pressure force you into situations that you know you don't need to face. I am sure you and your dh know yourselves and your family better than anyone else. I had one miscarriage and I don't think I could face that again, knowing that I'd be going into pregnancy to have that happen again and again. If I were you, and these topics come up in conversation, I'd change the subject. It's no one else's business. That's a private matter between you and your husband. If they ask, and I felt that I wanted to give an answer, I'd just say that medical issues decided your family size for you. End of discussion.

By the way, you are just as valuable a woman, just as wonderful of a mother, than those moms of many. Don't feel that you've failed. Don't feel that you're less than because you decided one way or another. You have nothing to prove. And no, deciding to be done does not equate to a lack of faith. In some cases, it is a demonstration of good sense. 

[Junie]

(((abba12)))

[HS Mom in NC]

Here's my story and my thought process:

In the first 2 years of our marriage I had 3 first trimester miscarriages then oldest's pregnancy and delivery were perfectly normal. 

About a year and a half after oldest was born, my pregnancy with middle was discovered was high risk at 17 weeks.  By high risk I mean life threatening to both of us.  We actually had 2 life threatening complications during delivery at 40 weeks that they didn't expect either of us to live through it and we were both moments from dying.  God intervened supernaturally and the medical staff agreed that was the case. We had no way of knowing, before we started trying for baby #2, that it would be life threatening.  No, we wouldn't consider abortion even at 17 weeks when they explained the kind of complication they feared (and it and another unpredictable one happened too) because I don't believe in abortion under any circumstances, (I have no moral issue with any form of birth control that stops sperm and egg from meeting. )BUT we researched the recurrence rate of those complications before we resumed sexual intercourse after middle was born and saw that of the low percentage of people who survive one, more than half experience it again.   The other was unheard of and a total wild card.  No. No. No. No. No.  He got snipped four weeks after she was born.

We started the international adoption process when oldest and middle were 6 and 8.  I'm glad we did, but the age gap is a challenge.  The older two needed to be older (7 and 9) when youngest arrived at 7 months old because transitioning a traumatized child is hell for everyone for a while.  It was temporary for us, but depending on the adopted kid and their previous circumstances, hers was ideal, it can be even harder.  Teens and teen issues can be compounded with identity/adoption issues (she's a different race that the rest of our family.) We're starting her teen years at 45 and 51.  That's not a small matter.

What bothers me about the original post is that you and your husband seem to be done, but your social circles seem to make you question yourself.  I think that's a 2 pronged problem: you seem to give too much credence to others who aren't living with your decision and you seem to have too high a percentage of people who all have the same views on things.  Do you live in a really small town? Are you a person who has a deep need for approval from others? If so, maybe you need some professional counseling about living in an echo chamber and needing everyone to agree with you.

My husband's employee/best friend and his wife have 7 biological children and 2 medically fragile foster children ages 12 and under.  They're both from homeschooled families (6 kids in her family and 4 kids in his.) She had her last baby a few weeks ago. 4 of those kids are toddlers and infants. They started fostering a few years ago.  My husband tried to have a conversation about margin with him several times over the years when his friend talked about family expansion plans and decisions.  Margin is extra: extra time, extra physical energy, extra mental energy, extra emotional energy, extra income, extra down time, like our adoption agency requires before placing a child with a family.  They phrase it this way, "Why is now a good time for you to adopt?"  They expect solid answers.  They're looking for margin answers because they know how incredibly difficult can be to have a transitioning child, and they don't want the family falling apart under the pressure. I think those answers apply to having another bio child too.  Margin is necessary in everyone's life so when tough times come in whatever form, there are extra resources to handle the extra pressures.  Americans, a whole,  are usually terrible at this because the culture, as a whole, is prone to excessiveness in most forms. We're a short sighted people group.

More than a year ago (when they 7 kids total: 6 bio, 1 foster) they had the friend and his family had been through several rounds of illnesses and court dates the older foster kid.  The friend told my husband he and his wife had a conversation agreeing that if they had another child they wouldn't be able to handle it, so they were going to have their name removed from whatever list it is of foster parents open to having another child placed with them.  One week later, to the day,  the fostercare worker called asking if they would be willing to take the other foster kid.  They said yes. (!??!?!?!??) Several months later she found out she was pregnant and had their most recent baby.  Now the friend tells my husband they had underestimated how much work it would be (having 9 children 12 and under) and they're completely overwhelmed.  They're both supposedly highly intelligent people, but it seems they missed the obvious, or they ignored it. I don't know what the clinical term is, but from where I'm standing way on the outside looking in, it seems like they're doing something akin to hoarding children. There's a strange compulsion to keep adding more and more even when they have stated they can't handle it. Where does that come from?  Some wrong idea about how many children is enough.  Some wrong idea about having to save every child that comes their way.  They can't do it all, but they keep taking it all on out of something-I don't know what.  I can only guess, but I think their emotions override their common sense and now they're in absolute admitted chaos.

So we all have our limits.  If you're at yours, then you're at yours.  If you're not, then you're not.  But don't let other people or some sort of philosophical abstraction over ride whatever your reality is right now.  Small families are just as much a blessing from God as big ones.  Small families are just as lovely and wonderful as big ones.  It really is possible God has in store a small family for you and that's not a failure on your part or his.  We all need to learn contentedness.  I'm not trying to talk you out of having more children, I'm trying to present a point of view you're not getting much of in your social circles.  If you opt to stop having more children, how are you going to handle it in your social circles?  Will you need counseling to help you handle any negativity you might get about that decision?

[SanDiegoMom]

I think the peer pressure thing does contribute to a LOT of the second guessing. We went through secondary infertility and were on the fence about whether to just call it quits (she'd be out of the house by the time we were 41) or keep trying. I felt so much worse being surrounded by people my age who were just starting families and I was facing possibly being done. We did IVF and had twins and after that knew we were done ( we were from smaller families so three seemed the maximum to us:)) .  When the younger kids were ages 5-6 I was surrounded by people who were done as well, so there wasn't the constant influx of new babies anymore.

Just take heart knowing that eventually your peer group  will stop having babies. I have to say I am looking forward to enjoying travel and new hobbies once the kids are gone.  And I can't wait for grandkids!

[GinaPagnato]

Hugs, OP. Your struggle is so evident.

I don't know how old your dc are, but one thing I've found is that for me, parenting teens and young adults has been waaay more challenging than parenting littles. My kids are great, don't get me wrong, but the decisions and consequences they face in this world, and the need for a parent to be able to emotionally and mentally engage with them is huge. Massive. With some of the issues that older kids go through, I can't imagine being sleep deprived or tied to a baby's schedule if/when my college-aged kid needs me. That's just *me* personally. I know some women do it, but I've also known many of them to feel a huge struggle internally because they know they're not able to give as much as they'd like, financially and emotionally. It's just not possible.

Many years ago I wanted to add to our family. DH and I talked about it, prayed about, sought counsel from others, etc. Lots of women in my circle have large families (like 8, 10, 12 kids). There was no judgment, but clearly they had the opinion that more was better. I was starting down that road, but DH finally shared with me that he didn't want anymore kids. He had all he could handle well, and I had to accept that, hard as it was.

I will say that I am so glad we stopped when we did. Parenting older kids has been much more of a challenge than I thought, and I think it's so very difficult if the numbers are such that my finite time and attention can't be spread according to the needs. I used to think, well God gives us grace to do it. And I don't disagree with that at all, but I also think He gives us grace and insight to know when we're done.

[SKL]

Your reasons to be done are very rational.  As an outsider looking in, never having been through any of it, I would say it's time to be done and make it final.

Not to trivialize the emotional and social pressures you are feeling.

It might help to just stop listening to anyone and meditate for about a week on this question.

If you decide you just can't do any more of the worry and grief you have gone through, that is more than enough reason.  Don't let anyone else try to talk you into or out of anything.  They are not traveling your journey.

[amyx4]

If you're not ready for permanent birth control, would it work for you to change to a more reliable form of birth control? It seems the immediate stress in your life is the type of birth control you are currently using.  Once you're chosen something more reliable then give yourself sometime to think about what's next. (I don't know that answer for you.)

For us, we have chosen not to discuss family size with anyone else besides each other. When someone asks we just give vague answers or change the subject. The decision needs to come from the two of you, not outsiders.

[KungFuPanda]

Maybe consider the pill or an iud and rethink the whole thing in 5-10 years. Forcing an all-or-nothing decision right now just reeks of manufactured stress and is unnecessary. It would be wise to spend that time gettingvto the bottom of your health issues whether or not you decide to have more children. 

[SKL]

I would also add, the decision is reversible if something changes drastically in the future.

My SIL got snipped after her 3rd before age 20.  She married my brother about 10 years later and they both wanted a child together, so she did reversal surgery and ended up with another daughter.

The adoption path is also an option as mentioned above, but as that isn't for everyone (and has many of its own issues), I would rather not add that to the complexity of your decision right now.

[SKL]

Re more reliable birth control to give you more time - that would work if you don't have a reason not to do it.  Not knowing your situation ... I do know some people who have bad reactions to various kinds of birth control, so I realize that may or may not be an option.

[HS Mom in NC]

If you want to prevent pregnancy, always use at least 2 forms of birth control simultaneously if neither partner has been surgically sterilized.  Math is a heartless b!tch.  Failure rates are high even with correct usage.

[ktgrok]

First, hugs! I think it is normal to be okay with being done, but not okay with doing something permanent. In fact, I'm RIGHT there. We do not plan on more children. I'm 42 yrs old. We don't have space or money. DH is going to get a vasectomy, and I'm not at peace with that. I'm Catholic, I will never have my tubes tied. I don't want him to do it. But he's not Catholic, and he can't handle more kids, so I am not going to stop him. Ugh. 

Anyway, back to your situation, which is different. In your case, my advice, if I were sitting having coffee with you, would be to seek out a NaPro doctor. They are associated with the Catholic church but you don't have to be Catholic to go there. They specialize in women's health issues and fertility issues but in a more natural way. They would ABSOLUTELY look at your history of miscarriage and take it seriously. They work to understand why a woman's fertility isn't what it should be, and then attempt to heal that. They don't do in vitro (because Catholic). They do use medications I believe, but more than that look at the woman's health as a whole and try to identify why she's having miscarriages, or not conceiving, etc. Not just try to overwhelm the body and force it. Maybe a consult with them would help you suss out why you are miscarrying, if it can be prevented in the future, and then you could make a decision with more information?

But, if even knowing you had addressed the miscarriage issue and that wasn't a factor, if you were assured your risks were the same as any other woman, how would you feel about another pregnancy? Is it the fear of miscarriage, or really not wanting another baby, or not wanting another pregnancy? If another pregnancy is not advisable for health reasons, but you do want more children, would adoption be an option?

As for the age spacing, there are benefits to a wide family. I wouldn't let that throw you at all. I have  - kid, ten year gap, kid, 2 yr gap, kid, 4 year gap, kid. There are benefits to closer together and benefits to farther apart. One isn't better, really, it's just different. 

But the health issues - HG, Miscarriage, etc are real. Like I said, I'm a "the more information the better" person when it comes to big decisions, so I'd be seeking out more information on that (and also, if nothing else, some reasons for miscarriage could be an indicator of other health issues or things that are hereditary, etc) and then decide. But if you still wouldn't want another, even if the miscarriage issue was off the table, then that's your answer. 

there is nothing more noble or more Christian about a bigger family versus smaller family. So make sure that isn't part of your consideration. It should be about wanting more children, not wanting to prove something. 

[ktgrok]

24 minutes ago, SKL said:

I would also add, the decision is reversible if something changes drastically in the future.

My SIL got snipped after her 3rd before age 20.  She married my brother about 10 years later and they both wanted a child together, so she did reversal surgery and ended up with another daughter.

The adoption path is also an option as mentioned above, but as that isn't for everyone (and has many of its own issues), I would rather not add that to the complexity of your decision right now.

Success rates are not super high though, I would not count on that, and surgeons advise to not count on it. 

[RootAnn]

I totally get it - especially after losing so many & being faced with 'could have killed me'. Hugs.

Just, hugs.

[ktgrok]

Oh, and after my 5 yr old was born we considered something permanent. I didn't think DH would ever want another. He didn't either. But the world changed, we changed, and he really WANTED another, as did I. (he just kind of went along with the others, lol, but this one he actively wanted to try for)

I'm very glad we didn't do something permanent. 

[Lecka]

My husband has had a vasectomy and I felt very peace after it was done.  It was a lot harder while we were deciding.

However we had a different situation!  I am one of 3 kids, so is my husband.  We have 3 kids.  

Also I don’t feel that we could do a good job with more kids and still do right by my current kids.  My husband has a stressful job that requires us to move and live away from family support.  However his job is one we are both committed to and we both think it is worth it to make some small sacrifices in our lives.  The military for what it’s worth.

Anyway my second pregnancy was a difficult pregnancy for me and we really struggled with my older son while I was pregnant.  It didn’t seem like that would ever change for us. (I had twins so I have only had two pregnancies.)

And then on top of that, my husband and I are both one of three kids, so that seems right to both of us.  

I really can see why this is difficult and I don’t know the right choice for your family.

It has been a good decision for us to go ahead with the vasectomy, though.  I have never regretted it.  My husband has expressed regrets a few times especially after we spend time with a family with many kids.  We have known families with more kids who are doing so well and that can be wistful for my husband.  It is not for me, but my husband does have those feelings.  

[lavender's green]

Big, big grouphugs!

We've been having a similar issue/discussion, minus the miscarriages. We'd always said about three kids, give or take. I developed a dream of having a big, generous, chaotic-but-happy family. DH was willing to keep going, if that's what I really wanted. But we both realized our hearts weren't really in it, that children and pregnancies are stressful to us, and our energy needs to go to the kids we have. So...The Talks. We've been having the talks for almost a year. It took a while, but we both feel at peace with our decision. We're going permanent because I react badly to most BC, and we don't want a caboose baby. We're very clear that this is DH's decision for himself to have no more kids. I think he's honestly relieved. He won't consider a reversal, and I don't want to adopt, so when we're done, we're done for good.

I'm glad AZ Mom talked about margin. That's the word I've been searching for as I think about family planning. If I have more kids anytime soon, DH and I will be in survival mode and we won't have any margin for when difficult times come up. We also live far from family, and most of them have full-time jobs, even if we were close. We're on our own except for maybe meal trains, but a casserole and a plate of cookies are only so helpful to people who are drowning.

I used to think that people figure out how to cope, and when everything is said and done, it's all fine. Then I started to meet people who had truly taken on too much. It happens. It's hard to talk about, because it's real people and real relationships. Oh, and big families aren't a panacea. My parents both came from large families, and they still fight with their siblings, put frail parents in nursing homes, and struggle with materialism because they were raised with splitting everything 12 ways and never having enough. I'm not passing moral judgments on any of those things (grandma truly needed a nursing home!), just giving a counter example to all the pro-big-family types who say that it will help siblings be close, care for aging parents, and be content with less.

Yes, people used to have more kids, but they also had more infant mortality, more ways for the kids to earn their keep, fewer needs (we have to educate our children nowadays, give them shoes, more than one outfit, medical care, etc. The social standards have shifted a LOT) and more help from family, neighbors, or servants. I remember in Kristin Lavransdatter (set in medieval Norway), her family made her start getting foster mothers and wet nurses to help raise the kids when she had her second child out of seven or eight. This whole going-it-alone thing is relatively recent and IMO can be quite unhealthy.

It's kind of funny - I have three kids and most of our friends and acquaintances think that's insane and want to know if we're getting the snip soon or if we're one of those "crazy, huge, religious homeschooling families." The rest of our friends and acquaintances aspire to be open to life. To them a family of five is absolutely puny. I will say that I had to distance myself from that type of thinking, as we tried to make our own decision. I snooze friends and bloggers on facebook who are like that, pass the beandip IRL, and stopped reading huge family NFP literature. It's honestly a little crazy as things get unsnoozed. Articles about how they're becoming so, so holy...puh-leeze! As though the only commandment is "make as many babies as humanly possible and don't sweat the rest."

Something I once heard about saying good-bye to dreams was to "let it go to sleep." Gently tuck it in, say good night, and maybe some day the underlying desire will wake up in a new form.

I hope you feel at peace with whatever you decide!

[freesia]

I just wanted to add another thought. So many times I have seen God work differently than I expected. Part of my and others I know's maturation process has been letting go of ideals that we thought were fixed and unchangeable in our 20s. I have known other no birth control moms who ended up using bc much to their surprise. I stopped having kids bc I knew I couldn't handle anymore. This was a total shock to me-the former babysitter, nanny and primary grade teacher. 

God doesn't like being put in a box. 

And, as you parent longer--and particularly into the teens--I can guarantee you'll make decisions that you never ever thought you would make and that maybe few will understand from the outside, but will be the right and godly decisions for your family. It's okay that others don't agree or understand. 

My opinion is for you to wait bc it is likely you and your family will change in huge ways in the next 15 years. There is no way you or dh can control that or know what you need to do. Rest the future in God's hand. But you know what? making the decision to do something permanent now is okay, too. It isn't really a black or white decision. Either will open or close doors and send you down different paths but that is fine. There isn't one life path that you and dh need to figure out how to navigate. 

[katilac]

3 hours ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

If you want to prevent pregnancy, always use at least 2 forms of birth control simultaneously if neither partner has been surgically sterilized.  Math is a heartless b!tch.  Failure rates are high even with correct usage.

 

This times 1,000. 

If you aren't okay with the vasectomy yet, use TWO forms of birth control at all times. 

Honestly, y'all sound done to me, with other people making you second-guess yourselves. Repeated miscarriages can be brutal on both physical and emotional health. 

Personally, I don't understand the thinking some people have that it's in God's hands if you try to prevent with short-term methods and still get pregnant. Okay, maybe so, but why wouldn't that be true for permanent methods as well? If a condom and an IUD don't stop God, I doubt that a vasectomy will. 

Can you spend some time thinking about an empty nest at 40 in a positive way? You don't have to have a career just because your kids are grown - if you could afford to stay home with more kids, you can certainly afford to stay home with fewer kids. So maybe you stay home and you and dh can travel a bit, maybe you find meaningful volunteer work, maybe your parents wind up needing a lot of care, maybe you do get a job and find out you love it. There are so many options, so many ways this can play out, and you certainly don't have to decide right now what you will do when your youngest is grown. 

It's okay to change your mind. You're not breaking a promise to God because you once wanted a large family no matter what, and now you don't. 

[LMD]

I am with Tap and I do feel for you Abba (and have felt your absence around here!)

 I'm really sorry for your losses. 

Here's where I am, different to you obviously but maybe talking it out will help us both! 

I have pcos. I've had two 2nd trimester losses, one which resulted in d&c, one which had me refuse the d&c so I bled for 10 weeks. I'm not keen for a repeat, though it's certainly not unlikely. My youngest is 4, my only naturally conceived baby that made it. No hint of a pregnancy in all the years since his birth. I now haven't had a cycle in 7 months, which is unusual for me. I'm 33. Clearly my body is not exactly happy and healthy! I feel like I'm at the stage where I need to decide if I really want another because if so, I should probably get moving medically sooner rather than later. I won't take fertility drugs, I had to to conceive my first 2 and am not doing that again.

So, I'm leaning towards seeing the doctor because my health/hormones are clearly not right. I don't want to go into either pregnancy or menopause already on the back foot - health wise. I figure if I invest in taking care of myself now, then there may still be time to be able to have and  handle another pregnancy. At least then I'm making a decision from a place of strength rather than desperation, and the kids I already have can only benefit from a healthier mother.

All that to say, my advice would be to take the big, dramatic, black and white decision off the table for now if possible. Go to a good doctor, book a long appointment, and discuss your health & contraception options. Take care of your children's mother, that is far more important than a small age gap. 

[Tanaqui]

It sounds to me like you know what you want to do, it's only peer pressure that's making you reconsider.

If you're worried about regretting not having another... okay, that's valid. But some people regret having that last child. That's a worse story, for them and the kids. I'm not saying this to scare or upset you, but just to point out that your decision needs to be based on what you and your husband know is right for your family - not based on what some other women think is right for their families.

[regentrude]

20 hours ago, abba12 said:

I know inside I'm done, I feel sick with fear that our little mishap could result in a pregnancy and I don't know how I'll cope if it does (I'm nearly certain it hasn't, I'm one of those people who gets symptoms within a few days, so I think we're in the clear). My emotional reaction in itself should be enough to tell me we're ready to make this decision permanent, because I never ever thought I would look on a potential pregnancy with fear or praying for it to not happen

I think this tells you that, deep within, you know that you want to be done. 

This is not a decision you should make based on peer pressure. This is between you and your husband.

Quote

I had my kids young, and as much as another pregnancy scares me,

having all my children be adults before I'm 40 scares me too! I'll be an empty nester when many women are only just beginning their families. I never really imagined that, I kind of imagined transitioning smoothly from motherhood to grandmotherhood, I have no intentions of having a career post-kids, so now the prospects of my 40s scare me a lot as well..

I don't think the bolded are particularly good reasons to keep having kids if you are dreading pregnancy.

Best wishes as you figure it all out.

[abba12]

Thank you all for your encouragement ladies. I've read through this twice and no doubt will once or twice more to try and process everything.

Unfortunately a mid-term birth control is off the table, which is what makes this so much harder! I'd happily go that route if I could, but, hormonal birth control isn't an option for me medically for multiple reasons, including history of cholestasis and a high sensitivity emotionally to hormone changes. There's a small chance I could tolerate the mini-pill, but that one has to be taken at the same time every day, a few hours late and it doesn't work. I'm lucky if I remember my medications daily at all, much less the same hour each day, not gonna happen. The copper IUD, while it's primary function is to stop sperm meeting egg, if the sperm makes it through and meets an egg and fertilises (since we know nothing is 100% and this does happen) it also makes an inhospitable environment in the uterus, preventing implantation of a fertilised egg. Since we believe life begins at fertilisation, not implantation, it's not something we're open to. I did discuss with DH a copper IUD, whether the small chance of killing a fertilised egg was acceptable in this instance, however we discovered that, in the small chance the IUD fails, the chance of the pregnancy being ectopic is increased. Not only did I have one ectopic but we suspect one of my miscarriages was actually a second ectopic which naturally resolved, so I am definitely at a higher risk, and while ectopic pregnancies are always dangerous, due to the unusual circumstances of both the confirmed and unconfirmed ectopics I had, it would be doubly dangerous for me. So that pretty much sealed the deal, it's condoms or the snip (spermicide isn't really used in Australia, I suppose it's probably available but I don't even know where I'd buy it, it's definitely not common and I know very little about it)

Regarding doctors taking my miscarriages seriously, again I'm in Australia so things work a little differently. I can't just choose to see a GYN unless I want to pay through the nose (and I can't just choose to see an OB at all, births are always handled by midwives unless you're high risk or private health here, and we definitely don't make enough money for private health). Because miscarriage is considered fairly normal you have to have 3 before they'll refer you to a fertility clinic. But because doctors think they are gods I am yet to find one who will accept my miscarriages which weren't confirmed by blood test. I've only had one miscarriage and one ectopic confirmed by blood test, the others I dealt with at home for various reasons that weren't taking doctor requirements into consideration at the time. I had a doctor willing to count the ectopic as a miscarriage and refer me after one more confirmed miscarriage, but then we hit the infertility. I could now get a referral due to a year of infertility, but I very much doubt they'll consider my miscarriages in my treatment for the same reasons I couldn't get a miscarriage referral in the first place. I did get a basic workup through the GP and everything checked out, but they can't order certain tests which are GYN only. In watching all this debate over public health in the US, there's a lot of benefits to public healthcare and I wouldn't trade it for anything, but this is one of the downsides, you don't just get to go see a specialist on a whim, you must be referred by your GP, the GP is the gatekeeper to everything. Most specialists work in hospitals, they don't have offices to visit.

You're all quite right that I'm letting myself be influenced too much by the people around me. I am told that's in part an age thing (I'm 26, kids are 7, 5 and 4), and I think they're right, I'm caring less about others opinions as I get older, but I'm not at the stage most of you are yet. Also, I come from a trauma background, some of you will remember I have C-PTSD, so I do unfortunately look for approval for things I do and acceptance. I'm working on it, it's a therapy point. I am fortunate that, while the women around me are for 'openness', they are also staunchy, unhealthily, into submitting to your husband (I believe in wifely submission too, but that doesn't mean we don't argue or debate. These women talk about how they actively avoid bringing up their problems or opinions or avoid disagreeing to begin with... it's a sad situation). The result of that is, the last time I discussed this at a group event and I had a good cry about it (because they have been very supportive through my losses and infertility) they were pushing me to remain open until I said DH had pretty much made up his mind and was just giving me grace until I could come to terms with it, at which point their attitudes all changed rather bizarrely and abruptly to 'well there's nothing you can do about it then and you need to work on letting go so you can submit joyfully and quickly". I didn't tell them DH would keep trying if I insisted on it, because i'd be chastised for 'forcing my will on him'. Sigh, such an unhealthy dynamic... but they genuinely are beautiful supportive people otherwise, I've never had a group accept my mental illness or past so gracefully, or help my family in practical ways so readily, as these women. It's so rare to find a group you can be open with who will truly support each other emotionally and practically. I can call any of them at any time and they're there. Right now the most vocal of these women takes my kids to co-op once a week so I can have a mental health day weekly! One helps me clean my house regularly because I physically struggle with it and DH is disabled too and overburdened! One is starting a group garden and beehive in her backyard to benefit all of us! And three of them have, at various points over the years, come over or picked my kids up at a moments notice during crisis times. So they truly do mean well, they're just a little misguided on some things. Anyway, I digress, I just wanted to say that their hearts are in the right place, but I'm definitely on the outside as far as beliefs go, they all consider me super liberal because my kids listen to the mainstream radio and have their own laptops for school and I actually argue with and share my opinions with my husband, nevermind that I'm a head covering, skirts only, complementatian homeschooling mama! People are funny... 

If a mid-term BC was an option I'd take it, but given the choice between condoms and the snip, I am sure in my heart we're not meant to have an oopsie now. While I always dreamed of a big dining table surrounded by kids, God has brought me a lot of joy in the past 6 months realising how very special and beautiful my three little girls are, all 21 months apart, so close and best friends, a group who will grow up together and be able to do things together and at the same time. As much as I wanted a boy, I see that God knew what he was doing because a single boy with two girls would have made me sad for him, but three little girls do everything together. It's different, but it is beautiful. And later on, I have come to be excited about being young with teens and adults, being active and involved. Women in my family had children young, my kids great grandparents are only in their late 70s and are an extremely active part of their lives. They have a good chance of seeing great-great grandchildren one day. I see things in the church and community not being done because women are working, and I see gaps I could fill, things I'd enjoy doing. And I want to be a super active grandma one day. And I look forward to the more emotionally involved teenage and young adult years, I don't do physical needs very well, but I can sit and talk emotions and life choices all night, I had a taste of that with my younger brother and his girlfriend living with us last year and thoroughly enjoyed it. The idea of doing that without little ones underfoot is definitely growing on me.

I suppose it is mostly peers causing doubt, and the worry I will want to start again later and have that door closed. But DH pointed out yesterday when I spoke to him about this, that his disability will likely get worse as he gets older. It wont kill him, but it will impact his daily functioning and limit what he can do. He says that due to this, he has no doubt in his mind that he will not want to start again when we're older, because from what we can predict now, trying to be a good father when he's 50 will be far, far more difficult for him than it is now at 30. I suppose I hadn't considered that either. But he's right, he will have a long and happy life but he already has to slow down now and will have to slow down more as he ages.

Thank you to those who also shared my hopes/convictions of a large family for sharing your stories. It's nice to know I'm not alone in having the heart for a large family but discovering it wasn't what God had planned for me. I'm glad to know there's hope on the other side, and thank you to those who said I am not 'less than' or a 'failure' for 'only' having three. While those things are obvious and I would of course never say I was a failure, it's funny how you can internalise those messages subconsciously, and I think I have been feeling those things, like I was meant to do one thing and I can't/won't. I think I need to have a long hard look at how I define myself and my life, and redefine what my life is about, because I never intended to define myself as only a mother, I don't believe that, but it seems I subconsciously did so anyway.

I think the doubt is in large part uncertainty and those possibilities looming. Someone above said that they felt better once the decision was made and final. After this long journey I think we need the closure, and I need to no longer second guess what might be or whether I want more in the future even though I know it's almost certain I wont/cant. I want to focus on moving on, and leaving this terrible rut that loss and infertility has caused, where even now we're preventing it I feel anxious and unwell after ovulating each month because of the months and years of trauma and/or disappointment from trying. If we leave the door open, I feel like we will never get the closure to this bittersweet chapter we both need. I want to dream of the future without doubting or questioning whether or not there should be children there, I want to get rid of the baby things and begin planning what I want to do with my life as my kids get older with confidence and certainty instead of doubt.

I've been mulling over this and grieving for 9 months now... I'm ready, I just needed a final bit of support, so thank you all. I'm going to tell him tonight. And you know what? I actually feel excited. Now that I KNOW, and I've made the decision, I honestly feel a weight lifted and I feel excited about the new opportunities this opens up for me that a large family and having toddlers and teenagers under one roof would have prevented or made harder. I know I'll have a cry tonight, and a cry before he has his surgery, but I actually feel happy, which I didn't expect. I feel relieved and at peace, and that should tell me what the answer was all along. Thank you all so much for this final push of clarity, focus, and clarification to help me block out the peer pressure and previous ideas and see what I actually think and feel inside more clearly. You didn't all give the same opinion, there were multiple viewpoints here and that helped immensely too. Thank you.

[Crimson Wife]

I almost got my tubes tied in 2015 because I was SOOOOOO sure at the time that I was "done". I am very glad now that my DH and OB talked me into getting an IUD instead. I coupled it with a diaphragm to reduce the chances of it working by preventing implantation.

How I felt at 38 was not how I felt at 40 3/4. I'm glad that we didn't take permanent action for what turned out to be a temporary feeling of "no more".