I think I need help processing Christmas.

[ktgrok]

I agree!  I think it's grossly offensive to God when people are only at church out of tradition or duty to someone else, 

 

 

 

Really? You think God is offended when say, my husband comes to Church to please me because he loves me? I think God probably is very happy that my husband loves me so much, and does things to show it. And yes, I do ask that he come. He goes only because I want him there. 

 

(although this year parking was a MESS and it was SO PACKED that I texted him - he took a separate car and was running later than the rest of us- that he could skip it if he wanted. He didn't. Because he wanted to be there for me at something that was important to me.)

[samba]

You are being so gracious about different viewpoints, and I hope you don’t feel we are piling on.

 

I did notice two things. First, you want all the people you love to be there. I totally relate to how nice that can feel. But your sister was in your home, with you, being a messy, annoying, complicated human (because all of us are). Having her sitting in church with the crew was the big moment you wanted, but you actually had her in your home! And you are ready to not host again because she wasn’t at church. It reminds me of having toddlers - how sometimes it was such a pure pleasure to watch them sleep, and then I would think, “I had them awake and in their toddler glory all day, and I didn’t really embrace it. Why is watching them sleep the big draw? Do I not enjoy the part where they are fully themselves?â€

 

Secondly, I am sure you don’t mean it and didn’t lay this in your sister, but she can’t be responsible for your “one happy moment†of the year.

 

Resentment is a problem for me at the holidays. I definitely have those, “Why do I have to do all the work?†moments. But truthfully I have a lot of power to change that. It helps me to reframe everything I “have to do†as a, “want to do.†I want to make the meals. I want to wrap the presents. I want to keep things tidy. Most of those things I could just let go. The McDonalds drive through is open on Christmas Eve. Figuring out why I want to do things helps me feel less resentful.

 

You expressed this so well. Thank you. 

[catz]

Really? You think God is offended when say, my husband comes to Church to please me because he loves me? I think God probably is very happy that my husband loves me so much, and does things to show it. And yes, I do ask that he come. He goes only because I want him there. 

 

(although this year parking was a MESS and it was SO PACKED that I texted him - he took a separate car and was running later than the rest of us- that he could skip it if he wanted. He didn't. Because he wanted to be there for me at something that was important to me.)

 

We're not even churchy types (we're UU and aren't super consistent), but I don't think this is horrible.  Everyone has things that are important to them.  Having your family together at an event that is important to you once a year doesn't seem unreasonable to me.  Especially after hosting and feeding everyone under your roof. 

 

The thing is laying out the expectation like was expressed above is good.  "This is what's important to me for the holidays while you're here".  People can't read minds.  

 

It's when people understand the expectation and drop the ball and disappoint time and time again is when I think it can start to get toxic and when it may be time to change the relationship.  It's exhausting maintaining relationships with extremely self absorbed people and if it isn't working as is for your family, making a change is understandable.  These types have the ability tochange their priorities if they want to.  It is not all on you. 

[Plink]

I don't think you are solely upset about her balking about church attendance.  I think this is the build up of all the years of you being the one to "make Christmas" for such a large group.  Your previous thread was so sad to read.  Honestly, it sounds like you are just at the point of realizing that you aren't required to do all of this for grown adults who aren't participating.

 

It is okay to create new traditions and let old ones die.  

The giant fiasco of week long visitors who enjoy a free ride isn't a requirement.

[maize]

The sister lives clear across the country and made the effort and put out the expense to travel to be with family for Christmas.

 

That is not the zero contribution people seem to see her as making.

 

The host is not the only one making an effort.

 

Overall it sounds like there needs to be more communication.

[Carol in Cal.]

P.S. I expect that the way she phrased not being into church was probably her trying to be honest with you and not give you some dumb and completely untrue excuse about being tired or sick or whatever. She might have been seeing if she could share some of her thoughts on church/the faith, but you basically showed her that no, she can’t do that with you.

Well, yes and no.

I mean, to make THAT the time for this discussion was awfully self-centered.  It almost sounds like (ugh, I don't mean to stir the pot, but I guess I am...) the attention was elsewhere and she pulled it back to her.  Drama drama drama.  

 

If she wanted to share her thoughts, she had had ample opportunity to do so when everyone wasn't rushing out the door for actual Christmas Eve.  The timing was absolutely terrible, and if I were Amy I think that that would be part of what would tick me off about it.

[amy g.]

I don't think you are solely upset about her balking about church attendance. I think this is the build up of all the years of you being the one to "make Christmas" for such a large group. Your previous thread was so sad to read. Honestly, it sounds like you are just at the point of realizing that you aren't required to do all of this for grown adults who aren't participating.

 

It is okay to create new traditions and let old ones die.

The giant fiasco of week long visitors who enjoy a free ride isn't a requirement.

It did feel like the rest of Christmas was really good. My adult children were super helpful and cooperative. They helped me prepare meals and kept their little sisters happy and went willingly to church.

 

Part of it is that FOR ME going to church together is the whole point of Christmas. If my sister doesn’t want that, maybe she would be happier spending Christmas shopping and staying in a hotel and not having any give and take expected of her.

 

If she wanted, she could visit us a different time of the year.

 

I realize that is still not rational thinking.

 

The comment about being controlling really hit home. I think I’m a problem person in a lot of ways. Some people overlook it because I’m very giving in the ways that I give but I have so much inflexibility in other areas too.

 

It isn’t a big surprise that I have a kid on the spectrum.

 

So it is helping me to imagine various possibilities. I’m seeing that the main reason I do all of the work is because I want everything my own way.

 

I can see how this is not a one sibling’s issue.

 

Also, I’m an introvert and my sister is an extreme extrovert. So that means that long visits make me tired.

 

I don’t feel the same way about hosting my brother (who wasn’t here this year) because I feel like he really tries to help out. He cooks at least one meal and makes sure it is something the kids want to eat. He tried to clean up, but I think he is just more in tune with me than my sister is. It isn’t stressful to host him. I enjoy it.

 

And my sister’s partner is one of my favorite people in the world. Who knows when I would get to spend time with her if I didn’t host Christmas.

 

I think that it is helping me with the resentment to see that my needing everything a certain way is why everything is unbalanced.

 

It really isn’t fair to blame that on other people.

[Carol in Cal.]

I look forward to Christmas Eve service all year.

 

I mean, Easter is more important, but Christmas Eve is so special.

 

I think I would say, "Please do this for me and we can talk about it later" if someone brought it up on the way out the door.  Or I would walk past them and be somewhat upset.  Then later I would tell them that the late notice hurt my feelings a lot, and focus on that.  

 

In this particular situation, I might not be all that thrilled about leaving someone alone in my house who has already been pretty self-centered all week.  I might wonder what she would do.  I'm not completely sure that I would allow that.  This is CA so the weather is not harsh.  I might say, well, we'll drop you off at Charly's on the way or something along those lines.  Or at least I would want to.  And that would be incredibly awkward as well and add to the difficulty of relaxing and enjoying the evening for me.  Ugh.

[amy g.]

The sister lives clear across the country and made the effort and put out the expense to travel to be with family for Christmas.

 

That is not the zero contribution people seem to see her as making.

 

The host is not the only one making an effort.

 

Overall it sounds like there needs to be more communication.

Yes! This is such an important part for me to remember.

[Guest]

Well, yes and no.

I mean, to make THAT the time for this discussion was awfully self-centered. It almost sounds like (ugh, I don't mean to stir the pot, but I guess I am...) the attention was elsewhere and she pulled it back to her. Drama drama drama.

 

If she wanted to share her thoughts, she had had ample opportunity to do so when everyone wasn't rushing out the door for actual Christmas Eve. The timing was absolutely terrible, and if I were Amy I think that that would be part of what would tick me off about it.

I’m saying she could have been feeling her out to see if this could be something they could talk about or taboo. If she had no interest in talking about church/faith, she could have come up with an excuse, feigned a headache, “accidnetally†gotten into traffic when heading back in time for church, or anything else.

 

I am going off my own feelings when I was going through an intense crisis of belief. I could never tell who might be willing to entertain my questioning vs. who would shut that down as taboo. Sometimes I made small remarks to people and, depending on their response, I decided whether or not they were safe. Not very many people came out as safe.

[maize]

It did feel like the rest of Christmas was really good. My adult children were super helpful and cooperative. They helped me prepare meals and kept their little sisters happy and went willingly to church.

 

Part of it is that FOR ME going to church together is the whole point of Christmas. If my sister doesn’t want that, maybe she would be happier spending Christmas shopping and staying in a hotel and not having any give and take expected of her.

 

If she wanted, she could visit us a different time of the year.

 

I realize that is still not rational thinking.

 

The comment about being controlling really hit home. I think I’m a problem person in a lot of ways. Some people overlook it because I’m very giving in the ways that I give but I have so much inflexibility in other areas too.

 

It isn’t a big surprise that I have a kid on the spectrum.

 

So it is helping me to imagine various possibilities. I’m seeing that the main reason I do all of the work is because I want everything my own way.

 

I can see how this is not a one sibling’s issue.

 

Also, I’m an introvert and my sister is an extreme extrovert. So that means that long visits make me tired.

 

I don’t feel the same way about hosting my brother (who wasn’t here this year) because I feel like he really tries to help out. He cooks at least one meal and makes sure it is something the kids want to eat. He tried to clean up, but I think he is just more in tune with me than my sister is. It isn’t stressful to host him. I enjoy it.

 

And my sister’s partner is one of my favorite people in the world. Who knows when I would get to spend time with her if I didn’t host Christmas.

 

I think that it is helping me with the resentment to see that my needing everything a certain way is why everything is unbalanced.

 

It really isn’t fair to blame that on other people.

And your sister shares the same gene pool and may get anxious if things are not the way she wants them as well.

 

It is a challenge to navigate for sure!

 

I'm in a marriage where an immensely disproportionate share of the family work falls on my shoulders. Difficult as that can be, I've also come to recognize that being responsible for everything has its upside--I'm making all the decisions and doing all the work so I get to do things the way I want a great deal of the time.

[8circles]

 

I can see how this is not a one sibling’s issue.

 

 

Amy, I so appreciate your willingness to self-reflect. I give you a lot of credit. I think that will be what enables you to find a solution to this. 

 

(please, don't read this as condescending, I know I veer that way in writing and I don't have the energy to fix it right now. I'm not meaning any condescension.)

[amy g.]

And your sister shares the same gene pool and may get anxious if things are not the way she wants them as well.

 

It is a challenge to navigate for sure!

 

I'm in a marriage where an immensely disproportionate share of the family work falls on my shoulders. Difficult as that can be, I've also come to recognize that being responsible for everything has its upside--I'm making all the decisions and doing all the work so I get to do things the way I want a great deal of the time.

Exactly!

 

I was trying to figure out how Dh and I navigate it. We have things broken down into different areas as far as who has control. He makes decisions about money and make the decisions about the kids.

 

When we go on a trip, everyone puts their stuff in the entryway and Dh puts it in the car. We don’t try to help him by all carrying our own belongings to the car because then he would have the extra task of taking everything out and the loading it again the “right†way.

 

I don’t have any issue with this. We all laugh about it, but how would I feel if Dh was complaining about no one else pulling their own weight or why does he ALWAYS have to pack the car.

 

I think this is where I really have to be honest with myself. If I’m doing all of the work because no one else does it to my standards, I don’t get to be mad about doing it.

 

I also don’t change plans well. That is why I said in my OP that if she had sent me a text before she got here about not going to church I would have handled it better.

 

My backup Sunday school teacher just moved to Maui. I was thinking today that I’m really up a creek. I don’t trust anyone else in my classroom with my Sunday school kids. I guess I just can’t get sick because I have no plan for a substitute. This represented to me how I get in these situations. I create them.

[HS Mom in NC]

Really? You think God is offended when say, my husband comes to Church to please me because he loves me? I think God probably is very happy that my husband loves me so much, and does things to show it. And yes, I do ask that he come. He goes only because I want him there. 

 

(although this year parking was a MESS and it was SO PACKED that I texted him - he took a separate car and was running later than the rest of us- that he could skip it if he wanted. He didn't. Because he wanted to be there for me at something that was important to me.)

 

Yes. Absolutely! I do think it offends God when your husband puts pleasing you over corporately worshiping God with the Body of Christ.  It's a human centered view of The Church's corporate worship time which I believe is in direct conflict with a God centered view of The Church's corporate worship time. All the hours of week that are not corporate worship time is when your husband can be thinking of you and making your desires his priority.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Yes. Absolutely! I do think it offends God when your husband puts pleasing you over corporately worshiping God with the Body of Christ. It's a human centered view of The Church's corporate worship time which I believe is in direct conflict with a God centered view of The Church's corporate worship time. All the hours of week that are not corporate worship time is when your husband can be thinking of you and making your desires his priority.

This line of thinking is...I just don't get it.

 

Scripture says husbands can sometimes be won over by the wife's faith. What that often looks like, in my experience, is that it starts by his coming to church for her. Then. after years of seeing her follow the church's teachings at home without hypocrisy, and appreciating how she gives credit to her religion for how well the children are turning out...plus maybe he's made some friends at church and has become more comfortable with the culture...maybe he starts to believe.

 

I'm not familiar with a kind of Christianity in which every person who walks through the door on Sunday must be already a believer *and* totally able to worship without distraction for 100% of the moments that he or she is in the building?

[OneStepAtATime]

Amy I applaud you for trying to work this all out in your own head and being willing to read through different perspectives.  Kuddos to you for that willingness and effort.  I'm impressed and a bit humbled TBH. 

 

I think part of the issue may be perception.  It can be hard to see another person's point of view or to accurately read another person's point of view.  Communication can be problematic and when personalities don't mesh well then lack of clear communication can lead to all kinds of misunderstandings and hard feelings, which in turn creates more misunderstanding and hard feelings and often negative motivations can be read into things that may not even be there (or at least didn't start out there).

 

For instance, your sister may have seen this "everyone must go to Christmas Eve services" not as a warm and fuzzy desire of yours but as sister trying once again to be in complete control and dictate what everyone else does regardless of personal belief/preferences.  Whether you are really like that or not, your sister may perceive you as such and see your choices through that lens.  Just like you seem to see everything your sister does through the lens of your sister is self-centered and you are the sister who does everything for everyone else and is never appreciated for the effort.  Are those views accurate?  Probably there is at least a little truth in those views but I doubt that is the whole story.  It makes it hard to navigate through these waters, though, when you both have strong and apparently fairly incompatible personalities, to know when each of you is ACTUALLY feeling/doing negative things that the other is seeing through that negative lens.

 

It does sound like your sister has a rather limited point of view.  I wonder, though, if your sister is perceiving her own reactions and actions the same way you are.  For instance, you say she griped about not getting to borrow the car she preferred.  "Griped" can have a negative connotation regarding the person "griping".  What made it seem like she was griping and not simply inquiring if the car she preferred to drive was available? Did she genuinely complain and whine about not getting to use the preferred car?  Or was she simply asking?  While I think it would be in very poor taste to complain when someone is lending you a vehicle to use, if she was simply inquiring if the other car was available because she feels safer or more comfortable driving the other car, I don't see that as "griping".  However, if it were a relative/friend/acquaintance that I was annoyed with/frustrated with I might very well perceive their inquiry as a complaint, not as a simple inquiry, because I was filtering their question through that lens.  On the flip side, while she might have simply been asking if the other car were available, your response of "no" may have been filtered through the lens of "Once again she is annoyed with me and once again she is trying to control everything and once again she thinks I'm being selfish.  I should have just kept my mouth shut and not asked."  Perception may be very different on each end of that conversation and intent may not be what the other is assuming.

 

It also sounds like you very badly want Christmas each year to be a certain way and are willing to host every year to try and get as close to your own vision of what it should be as humanly possible but your vision of Christmas family time may not be exactly in sync with certain other family members and honestly things do tend to evolve over time.  Traditions are nice but should not be a straightjacket.  Perhaps sitting down and TALKING about Christmas plans for the following year, even if it is by Skype or something, might help, especially if everyone is actually willing to LISTEN and think through what others are saying before responding.  It only works, though, if each person (including you) can accept that someone else may feel differently about things/may prefer different things and that doesn't mean they are wrong, they just feel differently.  If you never speak up, in a non-combative, non-controlling, non-judgemental way while you are calm and willing to genuinely discuss and listen in a productive manner, if you just let things fester until you snap and are ready to cut contact entirely, that helps no one.

 

I wish you the best in navigating these difficult waters.

 

:grouphug:

Edited January 7, 2018 by OneStepAtATime

[Catwoman]

Amy, I so appreciate your willingness to self-reflect. I give you a lot of credit. I think that will be what enables you to find a solution to this.

 

(please, don't read this as condescending, I know I veer that way in writing and I don't have the energy to fix it right now. I'm not meaning any condescension.)

I'm not Amy, but I didn't think your post sounded condescending at all. I thought you were being very kind and thoughtful. :)

[amy g.]

This line of thinking is...I just don't get it.

 

Scripture says husbands can sometimes be won over by the wife's faith. What that often looks like, in my experience, is that it starts by his coming to church for her. Then. after years of seeing her follow the church's teachings at home without hypocrisy, and appreciating how she gives credit to her religion for how well the children are turning out...plus maybe he's made some friends at church and has become more comfortable with the culture...maybe he starts to believe.

 

I'm not familiar with a kind of Christianity in which every person who walks through the door on Sunday must be already a believer *and* totally able to worship without distraction for 100% of the moments that he or she is in the building?

This reminds me of something that happened to my dad.

 

My parents left the Church of Christ in the 60s. My dad went to Unity church or Church of Science of Mind, things that his still Church of Christ mother did not feel comfortable with.

 

She was 99 years old and basically keeping herself alive until she was certain of his salvation.

 

He was doing Tai Chi and his Tai Chi master had him go to a Buddhist service to assist him with something.

 

In that service, which was not even in a language that he understood, my dad was struck by his own selfishness.

 

Why wasn’t he willing to just go to a church he didn’t believe in so the mother who sacrificed for him his whole life could have peace?

 

So he wrote her a letter promising to spend one year reading the Bible through and going to the Church of Christ every Sunday and Wednesday with an open mind.

 

What happened was that my father became very passionate about that church. He attended long after my grandmother passed away and requested we have his funeral service there. In his last few months, he only wished that every day could be a Sunday.

 

No I’m not of the opinion that what denomination a person attends is a salvation issue.

 

My Grandmother was and my dad was willing to attend just to please her.

 

In the situation with my sister, I’m not concerned with the state of her soul. I want her with me at church purely for my own selfish pleasure.

Edited January 7, 2018 by amy g.

[ktgrok]

Amy, I get it. I'm the same way. I'm impressed with how well you are seeing things. 

[Word Nerd]

I don't think you are solely upset about her balking about church attendance. I think this is the build up of all the years of you being the one to "make Christmas" for such a large group. Your previous thread was so sad to read. Honestly, it sounds like you are just at the point of realizing that you aren't required to do all of this for grown adults who aren't participating.

 

It is okay to create new traditions and let old ones die.

The giant fiasco of week long visitors who enjoy a free ride isn't a requirement.

This is an excellent point, and I agree that it’s time to at least consider creating a new tradition or dramatically scaling back your hosting commitment.

[ktgrok]

Yes. Absolutely! I do think it offends God when your husband puts pleasing you over corporately worshiping God with the Body of Christ.  It's a human centered view of The Church's corporate worship time which I believe is in direct conflict with a God centered view of The Church's corporate worship time. All the hours of week that are not corporate worship time is when your husband can be thinking of you and making your desires his priority.

 

Ok...but he wasn't going to worship God at all otherwise. You think God would rather he stay home, and hurt his wife, than go to church, look around at the beauty of the sanctuary, maybe be at least somewhat touched by the words spoken, and please his wife? That his sacrifice of his time for love hurts God, vs him staying home?

 

God works through people. I like to hope that maybe I'm the path God will use to bring my DH to HIM. Maybe I'm not. Either way, God is love. My husband showing his love for me by attending church seems like the very last thing that would offend God. 

[ktgrok]

This line of thinking is...I just don't get it.

 

Scripture says husbands can sometimes be won over by the wife's faith. What that often looks like, in my experience, is that it starts by his coming to church for her. Then. after years of seeing her follow the church's teachings at home without hypocrisy, and appreciating how she gives credit to her religion for how well the children are turning out...plus maybe he's made some friends at church and has become more comfortable with the culture...maybe he starts to believe.

 

I'm not familiar with a kind of Christianity in which every person who walks through the door on Sunday must be already a believer *and* totally able to worship without distraction for 100% of the moments that he or she is in the building?

 

Exactly, Tibbie! I've seen it happen, and I'm very glad that our priest expresses how appreciative he is of those who are not believers who come to important moments. I cannot even BEGIN to fathom him saying at the Christmas Mass, "Hey, if you're here to make your wife happy, or to please your elderly grandma, you are not welcome. Stay home next time." I mean, mercy!

 

Instead, he thanks everyone for coming, especially those that are not usually attending. At special events he always explicitly thanks those that are not members of the church and lets them know they are ALWAYS welcome, and he is so thankful and appreciative of the sacrifices they made to support their family member who is (being baptized/married/confirmed/etc). 

 

The very idea that God is barring attendance unless you meet some kind of criteria.....it's blasphemous to me. 

[StephanieZ]

I'd say you were out of line. I'm sure you were stressed. (((hugs))) We all screw up sometimes. 

 

In my world and family, adults get to choose whether they go places or do things, **especially** church. 

 

Further, you forcing her to go by speaking the way you did is waaaaaayyyy out of line and unacceptable. Again, in my world and my family, adults don't talk that way to each other. (A parent might speak that way to an unruly child . . ) Honestly, if I'd been your sister, I might have packed my bags right then and there and been done, period. Alternatively, as it has happened in my family when we were younger and more foolish, we'd have ended up in a screaming match . . . but I *certainly* wouldn't have gone to church with you after being spoken to that way. 

 

I think you'd benefit from really giving this some time and thought before saying or doing anything further. 

 

I understand the mixed feelings about wanting Christmas to be at your home while also carrying a lot of burden due to hosting . . . If you're tired of carrying all the burden, you need to own that and find a positive way to change things so you all can enjoy holidays in the future. Don't use this church/sister/Christmas thing as an excuse to have a fit and stop hosting. This is not your sister's problem -- it is your problem. Own it. It's OK to have a change of heart about what works well for you for holidays, but it's not OK to dump that on your sister.

 

Either way, if you have a "thing" about it now, Christmas is going to be tainted next year by your "thing" . . . So, don't do that. You're regret it. Take some time, breathe, reflect, pray on it, and then think some more, and then, in a few months, see how you want to handle next year. 

[marbel]

Ok...but he wasn't going to worship God at all otherwise. You think God would rather he stay home, and hurt his wife, than go to church, look around at the beauty of the sanctuary, maybe be at least somewhat touched by the words spoken, and please his wife? That his sacrifice of his time for love hurts God, vs him staying home?

 

God works through people. I like to hope that maybe I'm the path God will use to bring my DH to HIM. Maybe I'm not. Either way, God is love. My husband showing his love for me by attending church seems like the very last thing that would offend God. 

 

Nicely said!

 

The church is for unbelievers, skeptics, seekers, questioners... as well as believers.  The idea that a nonbeliever shouldn't be in church with their family is... odd to me (for lack of a better word).  

 

Churches prepare for visitors on Christian holidays. People are encouraged to invite neighbors, friends, family  members who don't typically go to church... so those people may hear the word preached and perhaps come to believe.  

 

If only believers were welcome, churches would be closed to all but their own members.  And there would be no growth.

 

Now, if someone goes with a poor attitude, grumbling in their head about being in church when they could be doing something else... might be a different matter but that would be between them and God anyway.  (And as if there aren't professing believers doing that too.)

[Chris in VA]

It did feel like the rest of Christmas was really good. My adult children were super helpful and cooperative. They helped me prepare meals and kept their little sisters happy and went willingly to church.

 

Part of it is that FOR ME going to church together is the whole point of Christmas. If my sister doesn’t want that, maybe she would be happier spending Christmas shopping and staying in a hotel and not having any give and take expected of her.

 

If she wanted, she could visit us a different time of the year.

 

I realize that is still not rational thinking.

 

The comment about being controlling really hit home. I think I’m a problem person in a lot of ways. Some people overlook it because I’m very giving in the ways that I give but I have so much inflexibility in other areas too.

 

It isn’t a big surprise that I have a kid on the spectrum.

 

So it is helping me to imagine various possibilities. I’m seeing that the main reason I do all of the work is because I want everything my own way.

 

I can see how this is not a one sibling’s issue.

 

Also, I’m an introvert and my sister is an extreme extrovert. So that means that long visits make me tired.

 

I don’t feel the same way about hosting my brother (who wasn’t here this year) because I feel like he really tries to help out. He cooks at least one meal and makes sure it is something the kids want to eat. He tried to clean up, but I think he is just more in tune with me than my sister is. It isn’t stressful to host him. I enjoy it.

 

And my sister’s partner is one of my favorite people in the world. Who knows when I would get to spend time with her if I didn’t host Christmas.

 

I think that it is helping me with the resentment to see that my needing everything a certain way is why everything is unbalanced.

 

It really isn’t fair to blame that on other people.

Amy, you don't have to answer, of course, but are you on the spectrum, too? 

I have an Aspie son, and I am Aspie, too--but that's not official, it's just that much of the description fits. 

I can be black and white, rigid, controlling, and wanting something my way ("because it's RIGHT."). I am an introvert who needs interaction. I have a deep internal dialog that basically doesn't quit,

and so much more that fits some descriptions I've read. 

I just see a few things in your descriptions of your desires, ways of relating, and thought processes that seem to suggest the possibility. And that you have a kid on the spectrum, too. 

 

Just wondering--and wondering if you've explored that.

 

If not, or I'm way off base, just...move along, nothing to see here.  :-)  

If so, I've found it helpful in my self-knowledge, when I'm working out how to change things in my life that aren't a good fit. 

[sassenach]

I agree about apologizing. I intend to do that, probably in a written letter so she isn’t on the spot to respond.

 

As far as that moment, Christmas is a ton of work for me. I have myself in push mode. That moment is when I breathe and the work is done and Christmas is here.

 

Another think I realized-this was the first semester when my middle daughter was away at school. When she got back, my 11 year old said, “When I hear you singing, it feels like home again.â€

 

When we were at church and heard my sister singing, I felt the feeling of home. Dang, I’m feeling my heart melt a little towards her just typing that out.

 

So much of what Tibbie posted was spot on. I have to think on it a little more before responding.

That's really sweet, and I think (in time) you should share that with your sister. 

 

Here's the good news- you've got a whole year (almost) to work this out. If nothing else, it's a chance to dig through some layers of family muck. 

[sassenach]

Amy, you don't have to answer, of course, but are you on the spectrum, too? 

I have an Aspie son, and I am Aspie, too--but that's not official, it's just that much of the description fits. 

I can be black and white, rigid, controlling, and wanting something my way ("because it's RIGHT."). I am an introvert who needs interaction. I have a deep internal dialog that basically doesn't quit,

and so much more that fits some descriptions I've read. 

I just see a few things in your descriptions of your desires, ways of relating, and thought processes that seem to suggest the possibility. And that you have a kid on the spectrum, too. 

 

Just wondering--and wondering if you've explored that.

 

If not, or I'm way off base, just...move along, nothing to see here.  :-)  

If so, I've found it helpful in my self-knowledge, when I'm working out how to change things in my life that aren't a good fit. 

I've never heard it described that way, but my dh totally this. Actually, nearly your whole description. He's definitely not on the spectrum. He is an INFJ and I think a lot of what you described fits that personality type. (not that it doesn't also fit Asperger's, but just as an alternative)

[eternalsummer]

I think your relationship with your sister is a complicated and not ideal one.  My sister annoys the heck out of me too a fair amount of the time, and when she and my mom come to stay for Christmas I spend a lot of time gritting my teeth - but I do like seeing her.  We get along much better long-distance than in person, though.

 

Regarding the Christmas Eve service thing, I can see why it was important to you.  I can also see why your sister would rather stay home and watch Netflix, and I don't think any amount of loaning her a car or paying for food at the holidays or any of it entitles you to tell her she has to go to a religious service.  The first time someone did that to me, sister or in-law or whatever, I'd never be back.

[footballmom]

I completely understand.  Completely.  I had similar family drama at Thanksgiving and to be honest, I am still processing.  It changed how I was willing to do Christmas with my family.  I hope you can make some room to explore your feelings around your relationship with your sister and not Monday morning quarterback this one interaction.  It sounds like she brought in a lot of expectations that would be challenging to meet AND manage your own boundaries during the visit!

[Catwoman]

Yes. Absolutely! I do think it offends God when your husband puts pleasing you over corporately worshiping God with the Body of Christ.  It's a human centered view of The Church's corporate worship time which I believe is in direct conflict with a God centered view of The Church's corporate worship time. All the hours of week that are not corporate worship time is when your husband can be thinking of you and making your desires his priority.

I don’t really think any of us is in a position to decide what does and what doesn’t offend God.

[maize]

I don’t really think any of us is in a position to decide what does and what doesn’t offend God.

Especially since He told us not to judge each other...

[Lecka]

My opinion is — is there anybody who can have a conversation with your sister “this would mean a lot to Amy g.â€

 

I feel like — if she knew it meant a lot to you she would do it.

 

When I have seen people not go they have thought of it like “it’s just a church service†and haven’t thought of it like “it means a lot to this relative.â€

 

When they think of it that way, they go.

 

When they think of it as just a church service, they don’t really want to go.

 

It’s just how they are looking at it.

 

I don’t think that has to be dramatic?

[Lecka]

I think also attending one’s home church is intrinsically more special than being a visitor. And it can be awkward to not know anybody, be an obvious guest/visitor, not be familiar with the patterns or the service, etc. I can be nervous even with knowing when to stand and sit, and whether to hug or shake hands. So I can see that side also for why it might be tempting to avoid it and even at the last minute.

[catz]

I also think it's absolutely fine to decide you don't need your whole extended family under your roof at Christmas.  Invite them at a time when you can be more laid back and your expectations for them can be lower.  Maybe let them be tourists and say you'll do breakfasts and dinner and maybe you do 1-2 outings together while they're visiting.  Or meet them somewhere you can each have your own space for a vacation.  I also feel like when you have adult kids that becomes another element of complexity. 

 

It's hard to have someone under your roof for that long.  Especially if you're just seeing them once a year..  All the stuff you mentioned would have pushed my buttons. 

 

I really respect how you're thinking on it!  Proves you are a real live adult.  I'm still working on it over here.  It's so easy to regress into tantrum mode with my sibling for me.   I had an incident this holiday season that has me processing too and grateful I won't be seeing anyone from my FOO likely for the next 4 months or so. 

Edited January 8, 2018 by WoolySocks

[LMD]

Exactly, Tibbie! I've seen it happen, and I'm very glad that our priest expresses how appreciative he is of those who are not believers who come to important moments. I cannot even BEGIN to fathom him saying at the Christmas Mass, "Hey, if you're here to make your wife happy, or to please your elderly grandma, you are not welcome. Stay home next time." I mean, mercy!

 

Instead, he thanks everyone for coming, especially those that are not usually attending. At special events he always explicitly thanks those that are not members of the church and lets them know they are ALWAYS welcome, and he is so thankful and appreciative of the sacrifices they made to support their family member who is (being baptized/married/confirmed/etc).

 

The very idea that God is barring attendance unless you meet some kind of criteria.....it's blasphemous to me.

I've seen it happen too - 3 times! Twice within my own family! The husbands seem totally opposed for decades, only occasionally attending church for their wife's sake, and then bam! God's love breaks through! This was my brother in law's first Christmas as a Christian, it was delightful and very special.

Keep holding on Katie, our God is an awesome God!

[Peaceseeker]

Well it sounds like hosting your sister is good for you spiritually. Family can be good for our spiritual struggle! It is making you examine some of your own motives and actions. It looks like some good fruit is already coming out of that recent struggle, as you face your own motivations and desire to have things your way.

 

I understand some people just go to church because family does on these type of occasions, and that seems like no big deal for some people and an easy way to make others happy. For some people, they might even get a spiritual benefit from doing so, if they are open to receiving it. But for OTHER people, this kind of pressure can be quite harmful and push them further and further away from God. I was one of those people. I always say I would have found Jesus a lot sooner if all those Christians and the Church hadn't gotten in my way. They were a huge stumbling block for me spiritually.

 

The best way to lead these kind of people to God is by your living testimony. Not by pressuring them to attend church and possibly driving them further away from God in the meantime. Don't let church attendance become a wedge between you and your sister. Let her see the love and peace of God in you and pray for her to long to be touched by it and come to God in her own way and in her own time.

[amy g.]

Well it sounds like hosting your sister is good for you spiritually. Family can be good for our spiritual struggle! It is making you examine some of your own motives and actions. It looks like some good fruit is already coming out of that recent struggle, as you face your own motivations and desire to have things your way.

 

I understand some people just go to church because family does on these type of occasions, and that seems like no big deal for some people and an easy way to make others happy. For some people, they might even get a spiritual benefit from doing so, if they are open to receiving it. But for OTHER people, this kind of pressure can be quite harmful and push them further and further away from God. I was one of those people. I always say I would have found Jesus a lot sooner if all those Christians and the Church hadn't gotten in my way. They were a huge stumbling block for me spiritually.

 

The best way to lead these kind of people to God is by your living testimony. Not by pressuring them to attend church and possibly driving them further away from God in the meantime. Don't let church attendance become a wedge between you and your sister. Let her see the love and peace of God in you and pray for her to long to be touched by it and come to God in her own way and in her own time.

I appreciate your post so much. I know this is going to give me some of the material that I need to make better decisions and choose better actions going forward.

 

I just want to restate that I do not want my sister to go to church with me because I am worried about her salvation.

 

I KNOW that my sister loves God, and she was the very first person who took me to church as a child when our parents were hung over to attend.

 

I am not righteously trying to do good.

 

I’m not telling myself that I’m in the right.

 

I’m just selfishly wanting my own moment of pleasure to have my family with me in the place where I am most happy one hour a year.

[Peaceseeker]

Regardless of whether it is a salvation issue, other Christians can sometimes be stumbling blocks and push each other away from God and the church. I guess that my point is that so much hurt, often unintentional, is done this way. I would just be very cautious pressuring anyone into going to church. Open invitation sure. But pressuring can cause harm for some people. Maybe not for your sister. Maybe she is totally fine spiritually and was just really feeling lazy and wanted to watch some Netflix and chill. 😎

 

I am not making any judgments here about either of you, just offering a different perspective to the others voiced here about pressuring/ expecting people to go to church. It honestly sounds like most of what you are dealing with in regards to your sister is a lot of bottled up resentments about small issues. Sounds like you usually suck it up and finally the dam broke loose. I would just personally try to avoid having church be the straw that breaks the camel's back between you two.

[Ellie]

I think, as hostess, you can set your own rules and requirements as long as you do it ahead of time. If they don't like it, they don't have to come or they can set up their own arrangements and accommodations. But, you need to be okay with them not coming if that is the case.

 

But even though she is the hostess, she cannot just set her own "rules and requirements." To say that she and her dh and children will be attending church because it's important to them is not setting rules and requirements. It is letting her guests know what they will be doing, and that the guests are welcome to go with them or stay home.

 

I agree, though, that she needs to be okay with the guests not coming with them to church.

 

[Joyofsixreboot]

The obvious answer is to talk about it. I don't tell other adults what to do (this us hard with adults who used to be your kids/charges/younger sib) but do the others know how important this is to you? We all assume others know what we're thinking. You didn't know she'd rather stay home. She maybe didn't know this is THE thing you most want. You've got 12 months to figure it out.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[RootAnn]

But even though she is the hostess, she cannot just set her own "rules and requirements."

Sure, she can. Should she? Different question. She is able to (another way of saying 'can') set rules for her house. Many hosts/hostesses have rules: No smoking inside. Shoes removed at the door. Perhaps, no nuts brought into the house. It is reasonable to have rules for guests to your house as long as they are communicated ahead of time and the guests have the option to not visit and thus not have to comply.

 

Some requirements may be more flexible. For example, I know someone with plantar fasciitis who keeps a clean pair of inside shoes for houses with the no shoes rule. She lives in an area where no shoes in the house is very common among her friends. No one has an issue with her changing into clean shoes for their house when she explains.

 

Others may not. If you say, No Pets (because you have a highly allergic person in the family) and a houseguest brings along their beloved dog because they couldn't find another option (or just brushed you off, thinking the allergy is not serious), it is reasonable for the hosts to find (or insist the guest to find) another place to stay.

[duckabell]

This year we read "Crucial Conversations" for our book club. At first, I was turned away because it seemed like a corporate book on communication, but I learned so much from that book about navigating hard topics like the situation with your sister. It recognizes that there are "crucial moments" where things come to a boil and emotions are heated and how to communicate in that moment. It also helps you step back and rationally look at the situation and how to communicate your side and feelings without placing blame or running away from the situation. 

 

I would recommend taking a look at that book to understand how to work on your relationship and communication dynamics with your sister. 

[Annie G]

This year we read "Crucial Conversations" for our book club. At first, I was turned away because it seemed like a corporate book on communication, but I learned so much from that book about navigating hard topics like the situation with your sister. It recognizes that there are "crucial moments" where things come to a boil and emotions are heated and how to communicate in that moment. It also helps you step back and rationally look at the situation and how to communicate your side and feelings without placing blame or running away from the situation. 

 

I would recommend taking a look at that book to understand how to work on your relationship and communication dynamics with your sister. 

 

Thanks for the book recommendation. I think it might help dh with his relationship with his sister, who mostly shuts down but also unexpectedly blows up. He's not equipped to deal with either so I'm pretty excited about the book. 

[eternalsummer]

Sure, she can. Should she? Different question. She is able to (another way of saying 'can') set rules for her house. Many hosts/hostesses have rules: No smoking inside. Shoes removed at the door. Perhaps, no nuts brought into the house. It is reasonable to have rules for guests to your house as long as they are communicated ahead of time and the guests have the option to not visit and thus not have to comply.

 

Some requirements may be more flexible. For example, I know someone with plantar fasciitis who keeps a clean pair of inside shoes for houses with the no shoes rule. She lives in an area where no shoes in the house is very common among her friends. No one has an issue with her changing into clean shoes for their house when she explains.

 

Others may not. If you say, No Pets (because you have a highly allergic person in the family) and a houseguest brings along their beloved dog because they couldn't find another option (or just brushed you off, thinking the allergy is not serious), it is reasonable for the hosts to find (or insist the guest to find) another place to stay.

 

 

I agree that she can set rules for her house.

 

That said, these (and all reasonable rules I can think of) are things not to do.  I can't think of any reasonable household rules that are things people are required to do in order to be fed and housed in a relative's house, but I might be missing something.

[melmichigan]

I would not be receptive to someone telling me to just suck it up and attend a church service, sister or not, and if staying with you was conditional to that degree then I wouldn't be planning to be there for the holidays.   

 

I don't play "White Wine in the Sun" when my sister is visiting, she doesn't expect me to attend church with her, there are lines.   ;)   

 

I'm not sure if it's the fact that I gave up religion versus never having it, but the expectation that one would have to attend church services to make a spouse happy leaves a sour taste in my mouth, and is just one more of those things that turns me away from the whole idea.  

[Katy]

I know everyone has piled on opinions about the church attendance thing, but I want to address something else... being tempted to harden your heart towards her, shut her out, and refuse to forgive her for not having the same priorities as you.  None of those decisions are particularly Christ-like.  They're just a way for you to retreat from love and a life of grace.

[hornblower]

I’m just selfishly wanting my own moment of pleasure to have my family with me in the place where I am most happy one hour a year.

It just seems to me this is placing an awful lot of pressure on everyone around you and yourself, just for 1 hour out of the 8,760 hours in a year.

 

I mean it's ok to have a thing that makes you happy but it sounds like you hold a year's worth of hopes and expectations on a single moment  which has to 'just so' to be perfect.  If you're still looking for input, I think I'd suggest meditating on flexibility, what perfection means, and how to find (perfect) contentment which does not rely on other people. 

[Ravin]

Your sister was being a jerk. I'm not even a Christian and I would have gone to a church service to support a niece who was putting herself out there, and for the sake of family unity. I would then proceed to sit quietly and respectfully through it, though I have no fondness whatsoever for churches--I do love my family, though, and that is spiritually significant to me.

 

That said, your reaction to her Plan A was rather strong and I can't say I blame her for being angry, though taking it out on the family for five days was ridiculous. That kind of pressure would likely have made me dig in my heels and not go even if I might have been persuaded to if invited and asked nicely. It strikes me as poor treatment of a guest to dictate to her what she must do, rather than invite her and give reasons why you're hoping she'll attend, her ambivalence about church notwithstanding.

Edited January 8, 2018 by Ravin

[wintermom]

My mil and all my extended family are practicing Catholics and we attend mass at different churches though we all live in the same city. On Christmas Eve we are all attending our own churches' mass (some serving, my dc, dh and myself leading music at our church), then we meet up at mil's house for food and visiting.  I would be very upset if mil expected me to go to her church for mass on Christmas Eve because she wanted all her family around her at that precise moment. She praises God in her way at her church, and she respects that I have that same freedom to praise God, both at Christmas and throughout the year.

 

Serving at a church service is NOT a performance for the entertainment of family members. Those are called concerts or recitals or performances.  There should be no need to attend a service simply to show appreciation for that person if you have no interest in the religious service. People can attend if they wish, but it shouldn't be a requirement.

Edited January 8, 2018 by wintermom