Would you be bothered? Extravagant friends

[Kim in Appalachia]

I would not be bothered, but that's because I did that growing up.

 

My closest friend was the youngest and only girl.  Her family was always inviting me to go along on vacations with them so that my friend would enjoy it more.  And you know what? It was more fun.  Yes, they did do stuff with her, but together we had a great time.  We went to the shore, to the Poconos, to the movies (I went to the Primere of the Goonies.  Her mom got special passes to a big event and I got to go along.  Seriously fun).  I went horseback riding, accommied her to cat shows, football games, and all kinds of events.  

 

She also came with us, but since my folks had less to spend on that stuff, it was not the same.  But my parents were not bothered by it, and neither were hers.  They were our next door neighbors and we all got along.  She spents lots of nights at my house, and I spent a lot of nights at hers.  

 

To me, it sounds as if it hurts your pride a bit.  You feel as if you can't provide the same or you don't want to provide the same. You can't imagine a family funciting in a different way then yours does.

 

I'm not saying you can't or should never draw a line.  If it is really extravagant, then you can say so.  

 

But I don't think you should knock this family just because they like having a playmate along for their child. 

 

 

[creekland]

That’s also not my only reason; there’s other things like costs we will have to pay for and general queasiness about having my minor child very far away and under their care - not that they aren’t caring folks, but you know. Accidents happen. Water terrifies me. I’m pathologically afraid of my kids drowning. Stuff like that. I might be a basket case with my young kid at a water location a jillion miles from my freakishly overprotective hawkeye.

 

So stick with these reasons, because while we don't necessarily all share them, we completely understand them.

 

The others are just people choosing to live their lives the way they want to and there's nothing at all wrong with that.

[gardenmom5]

I don't believe that Quill is saying no one should ever invite anyone's kid to anything, or that kids should never be allowed to have friends along.  I'm getting that it's too often, and now, with this big trip, too much $$$ for her to feel comfortable (among other things).

 

I think people who have "the more the merrier" attitude, and have the funds to invite extra people along, don't get that it can be uncomfortable for the person constantly being invited (or the parents of that person). it's not comfortable never being able to reciprocate and feeling as if you are in debt to someone for social activities.   

 

for starters- NO ONE is stopping her from saying 'no'.

gifts are gifts. they are (should be) altruistic with NO strings.   I grew up with chains attached to every gift I received, so I am very conscious I do not want anything attached to a gift. I'm giving it to be kind, be useful, etc.  but there are no strings at all.  (especially no chain).

 

My dh benefitted greatly from spending time with his best friend's family. He spent many nights at their kitchen table in middle and high school. The relationship continues today. He served as a pall bearer when friends father died 25 years ago. Friend's mom has Alzheimer's now.

 

Dh is 60 now. Having that relationship and spending time with another family did not hurt his relationship with his own family. Dh visits his mom (85) at her condo every Sunday today.

 

Having strong connections outside of family does not necessarily lead to weak family connections.

 

I think on the part of some, there is still viewing love/realtionships as a pie.  that it is a limited resource to be spread around.   I'm working on this with ds's gf (he hopes to marry her when he graduates and can afford her medical bills).   love feeds love, and the more love you share, the more you have to share.   

 

It’s not really that. It’s more that I think the whole family acts entitled. 

 

if you truly think that about them,  *why* would you allow your child to associate with them, at. all.?

if you think they're entitled?  do you just send your kids there so they can do the expensive things you can't afford to do with your kids?  are you using them?

[Ausmumof3]

Being jealous is within the normal range of humans reactions to this kind of thing I think. It doesn't make you a bad person to feel that though it might if you make your decision purely based on the feeling.

 

Wariness of someone who gives expensive things is another one. I read some analysis once where they said it was based on a tribal thing where one person would give something over the top to someone and then the recipient would feel obligated to them and basically it becomes a way of buying a power base. That doesn't mean that every person giving something to someone else is like that but it explains why we sometimes feel wary about accepting to much from others. We have some Italian culture friends and it has made life interesting at times because of our totally different approach to giving. Doesn't make either way wrong just different.

 

12 is young for an international trip without parents and I think that is a legitimate reason to say no. The jealously is a legitimate feeling but not a good basis for a decision.

 

I've said no to several offers of trips for my kids from one particular grandparent. She hasn't asked the last couple of times and I probably would say yes now. But she's emotionally fragile at times and difficult and I didn't want to send my kids when they were younger. Also I had a trip at around 10 with another family and while it was overall positive I do remember some pretty difficult times where I just wanted my mum more than anything in the world.

 

Different cultural values are hard and can be a legitimate reason to draw back a bit from a friendship.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

It’s not really that. It’s more that I think the whole family acts entitled. Like, the children can certainly never go on a trip with just their sibling and parents; they can’t even stand for one child to have a sleepover guest when the other does not. It is always both kids have to have a buddy. I don’t want my kid to be the entertainment committee. The parents think this is a “must†and it bugs me.

 

.

I can't relate to this...maybe fraidycat and others picked up on something I missed. You don't like these people? That's not what friend means!

 

Now I'm confused.

[Lisa R.]

This thread astonished me. Why would a parent be jealous of their own child? If my child gets better opportunities than I had at his age, why wouldn’t I be grateful on his behalf? If my child has greater opportunities right now than I can’t have, why wouldn’t I be happy for him?

 

Why would I deprive him of something fun because I don’t get to go?

 

People that travel don’t feel more entitled. Seeing the world can open one’s eyes and acrually give greater perspective.

 

Entitlement isn’t just for wealthy people; it cuts across income levels and shows itself in many ways.

 

This family sound sounds like fun and generous people who share freely.

 

Now, if I felt my child wouldn’t be supervised well or didn’t trust the adults, I wouldn’t let my child go. That doesn’t seem to be the issue here since he’s been other places with the family.

 

I leaned so much growing up watching other adults in my life. I appreciate other people who are willing to include my child.

 

I feel like I’m missing something.

[unsinkable]

I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but I don't personally think that just because Fussell said it and that you learned it at a highly selective New England University necessarily means it's absolutely correct or that we should all agree with his findings.

 

And Quill knows I like her and that I generally agree with her, so I hope she doesn't think I'm taking any personal shots at her. I assumed she started the thread to hear others' opinions on the topic.

But it's FUSSELL! Dear God, we're talking FUSSELL!

 

You know...FUSSELL?!

 

Sheesh. Wow. Just wow. SMH. Good grief.

[gardenmom5]

This thread astonished me. Why would a parent be jealous of their own child? If my child gets better opportunities than I had at his age, why wouldn’t I be grateful on his behalf? If my child has greater opportunities right now than I can’t have, why wouldn’t I be happy for him?

 

Why would I deprive him of something fun because I don’t get to go?

 

People that travel don’t feel more entitled. Seeing the world can open one’s eyes and acrually give greater perspective.

 

Entitlement isn’t just for wealthy people; it cuts across income levels and shows itself in many ways.

 

This family sound sounds like fun and generous people who share freely.

 

Now, if I felt my child wouldn’t be supervised well or didn’t trust the adults, I wouldn’t let my child go. That doesn’t seem to be the issue here since he’s been other places with the family.

 

I leaned so much growing up watching other adults in my life. I appreciate other people who are willing to include my child.

 

I feel like I’m missing something.

 

sadly - I have known parents who were jealous of their kids.  ultimately, unless they got a handle on it, they have all ended up undermining their kids.

 

my kids had many opportunities I didn't.  I have frequently been glad they had me for a mother and not mine  (and I can  appreciate how what my life would have been like had I had me for a mother - and not mine.)  It shows, both in who they are, and their relationship with each other and their parents.

 

I fully agree - entitlement knows no socio-economic group.  you find it everywhere.   jealously is one form.

[DawnM]

It’s not really that. It’s more that I think the whole family acts entitled. Like, the children can certainly never go on a trip with just their sibling and parents; they can’t even stand for one child to have a sleepover guest when the other does not. It is always both kids have to have a buddy. I don’t want my kid to be the entertainment committee. The parents think this is a “must†and it bugs me.

 

That’s also not my only reason; there’s other things like costs we will have to pay for and general queasiness about having my minor child very far away and under their care - not that they aren’t caring folks, but you know. Accidents happen. Water terrifies me. I’m pathologically afraid of my kids drowning. Stuff like that. I might be a basket case with my young kid at a water location a jillion miles from my freakishly overprotective hawkeye.

 

I think some of these are fair concerns.

 

If another family asked if my kid could go on a Norwegian Cruise liner in Norway with them, with limited internet or phone access, it would concern me unless I knew the family really, really well.

 

But I wouldn't be thinking, "NO WAY!  My kid can only go on that cruise with the family and we can't afford it, so no one goes!"

 

Of course there are other concerns.....if the family did things I didn't approve of morally would be an example.

 

And the first concern, about both kids bringing someone, that happened with a homeschooling family we knew.  If one kid had a friend over, the others  would get their own sleep over friend, or whatever......it isn't my style, but it didn't bother me too much.

[Caroline]

But it's FUSSELL! Dear God, we're talking FUSSELL!

 

You know...FUSSELL?!

 

Sheesh. Wow. Just wow. SMH. Good grief.

And in NEW England!! Not even regular England!

[Carol in Cal.]

 Why would a parent be jealous of their own child? If my child gets better opportunities than I had at his age, why wouldn’t I be grateful on his behalf? If my child has greater opportunities right now than I can’t have, why wouldn’t I be happy for him?

 

 

 

Oh my yes.  There are parents who are jealous of their children, and who, although they might not prevent them from getting treated to something special, would do their best to make sure they don't enjoy it by making them feel guilty.  Ask me how I know.  (not)

 

[marbel]

This thread astonished me. Why would a parent be jealous of their own child? If my child gets better opportunities than I had at his age, why wouldn’t I be grateful on his behalf? If my child has greater opportunities right now than I can’t have, why wouldn’t I be happy for him?

 

Why would I deprive him of something fun because I don’t get to go?

 

Does anyone seriously think that Quill does not want her children to have opportunities she did not have? She admitted a bit of envy toward the parents (IIRC, on my phone I can't review the OP)not her own kid.

 

If I know anything about her from reading this board, it is that she is a thoughtful and intentional parent who wants the best for her kids. She's not talking about limiting her kids to only the opportunities she has had. And we're talking about a 12 year old going on an international trip. I can think of lots of reasons to "deprive" a kid of a trip like that.

Edited November 28, 2017 by marbel

[Junie]

I often use the word "jealous" when what I really mean is "envious".  So, maybe that is part of the dynamic of this thread.

 

If one of my dc were invited to a vacation to Europe, for instance, I would be envious.  Especially since I know that my kids would be "meh" about the trip and I would be :001_tt1: .

 

My sister had a job that "allowed" (read: required) her to travel to Europe frequently.  I wasn't jealous of her -- maybe a tiny bit envious -- but the travel is part of the career path she chose and not part of mine.

 

 

Edited November 28, 2017 by Junie

[Ausmumof3]

I don't think it's jealousy of what your kids get to do though, but maybe slight jealousy of parents who can afford to provide that for their kids. I don't think quill is a horrible person for feeling that. She's been open and honest about a feeling that many people have even if they don't acknowledge it. It doesn't mean she's going to act on that feeling. Understanding and labelling emotional responses is an important part of dealing with them appropriately.

[Χά�ων]

Huh. I have been debating inviting my son's best friend to fly in for part of our vacation. Both boys have a similar strong interest in a location we are traveling to. Both would get way more out of it than DH and I ever would and are old enough to be dropped off at the door of the specific place while DH and I do anything that is not akin to gouging our eyeballs out after the first day.

 

I am not inviting him to seperate him from his family. I am not inviting him because he family cannot afford it. I am inviting him because both boys would get so much more out of it together.

[Guest]

Again, sorry I can’t read every post or address everything I would like to address, but I wanted to respond to a couple of general themes here.

 

1) I mean, I’m sure you have all had friends or friends of your kids in which you like 98% of them, but don’t like 2%. Or does anyone here really have friends whom they 100% like everything about? I like lots of things about these folks. We have known them for decades. I like nearly everything about them and approve of the vast majority of “how they do things.†But there is ONE thing I don’t like: they act like the world revolves around what their kids want, like or claim to need. It is more the dad than the mom, but they, as a couple, circle everything around the kids. Dad, especially, is tremendously extroverted and wants everything to be the BEST.THING. EVER! So -mostly like everything about them, but don’t like THIS one aspect of them, and the offer of the trip is pretty much the most glaring example of this one values clash that I can actually think of.

 

So, no, I’m not using them, I don’t hate them in general, I don’t think they are toxic or awful people. But we have this ONE place where our values are vastly different and the trip is like a giant, blaring megaphone of that ONE major difference in values.

 

2) I’m not saying nobody in the universe should EVER offer expenses-paid trips for friends. I’m saying *I* don’t like it personally. AND I don’t like that this seems to be a societal expectation among a certain social class around here. One of my relatives recently went on a Very Big Giant Vacation and they, too, had their “adoptive daughter†along to be a buddy for their own dd. It’s not my cup of tea.

 

3) Also, I am granting you all I have my own envy issue with this because a few years ago, DH and I took just that same trip (as relatives) and we would have loved to bring our own kids (no extras), but we could not afford to. So, here’s a lot of people sort of praising us for “getting away†on a nice trip without the kids, but I’m dying a little bit because I WANTED to bring them, but I could not afford to. Anyway - yes, there is an emotion there that’s not the highest goal of human evolution - envy - but I am not a perfect person; I thought we all knew that already.

 

4) I should have probably just cried in my pillow about it.

 

Lastly, I can’t find the post right now, but I think it was Anne who said I don’t want these fancy sort of things to overshadow our simple crabbing at the beach cottage family things. Yes. That is very accurate. I like for my kids to be satisfied with simpler things. I like them to value doing things with family. I don’t want them to think everything should revolve around them. I want them to be helpful, humble, happy people.

[Element]

Really, most people don't have ulterior motives for the things they do.  At least not for every little thing.

 

 

The reality is that this family has and goes and does stuff.  It's part of their lifestyle.  And really, I bet what happens is that the kid says "hey, can my best friend come?!?!?"  And they say "sure, lemme just ask his mom"  And that's really the end of it. 

I have been on this side of it, and this was exactly how it happened here. We took my best friend to Disney World when I was 14. To my knowledge, friend was not able to go to Disney any other way so it's not like we were taking an opportunity away from her mother. She appreciated it, and I was glad to have a friend with me since my parents were focused on taking care of my brother. We always had friends tagging along to events and I don't think anyone ever thought twice about it. 

[gardenmom5]

Huh. I have been debating inviting my son's best friend to fly in for part of our vacation. Both boys have a similar strong interest in a location we are traveling to. Both would get way more out of it than DH and I ever would and are old enough to be dropped off at the door of the specific place while DH and I do anything that is not akin to gouging our eyeballs out after the first day.

 

I am not inviting him to seperate him from his family. I am not inviting him because he family cannot afford it. I am inviting him because both boys would get so much more out of it together.

 

just my $0.02.   if this works for you - go for it.  both of them together, would get so much more out of it than just one by them self.  they will talk, they will share, they will brainstorm, they will observe.   like a chemical reaction . .

 

2dd is such a catalyst - it's only logical she majored in chemistry. . . .

[Element]

 

3) Also, I am granting you all I have my own envy issue with this because a few years ago, DH and I took just that same trip (as relatives) and we would have loved to bring our own kids (no extras), but we could not afford to. So, here’s a lot of people sort of praising us for “getting away†on a nice trip without the kids, but I’m dying a little bit because I WANTED to bring them, but I could not afford to. Anyway - yes, there is an emotion there that’s not the highest goal of human evolution - envy - but I am not a perfect person; I thought we all knew that already.

 

 

You've taken this same trip already and couldn't afford to take the kids, but now one of the kids has the opportunity to go and you are not allowing them to go? I know you have your reasons, but I can not relate to this at all. This would make more sense to me if you had passed up your previous vacation opportunity because you couldn't go as a family. But you've already set the precedent that you take vacations where/how you can take vacations. (And that's okay! We are the same way. We can't afford to do much with our children, so we take opportunities that head our way and run with them.) 

 

I'm sorry, truly. I don't mean to beat you while you're down, and you're obviously struggling with this. I do hope you come to a conclusion everyone is satisfied with. 

[catz]

I haven’t read all the replies. But no is a complete sentence. I have a similar family like this who has invited my dd to a bunch of stuff I’d never do. When it works it’s fine for the most part. We reciprocate in quieter ways. This family isn’t remotely wealthy. They seem incapable of saying no to their kids. I’ve said no to weekend long or longer events. My dd just turned 13 over the summer. Maybe if she were 16+ and super excited. Anyway this particular family has been the source of some good discussions at our house.

 

Eta. I’m not envious at all and I relish some friend memories from my own childhood. I have fond memories of simple camping trips and fancy vacations. It is possible to enjoy it all for sure! We actually are able to do more for our kids overall for our kids in terms of vacations, extra curriculars, etc. I just don’t get why they think they need a sleepover or a weekend with 6 other related things. For the kids birthday, there is a mall, a water park, a hotel, many meals etc. My kid needs down time and sleep. It’s all over the top and their kid is younger than mine and can be very demanding and intense. I can’t take this kid in long doses.

Edited November 29, 2017 by WoolySocks

[marbel]

<snip>

As to your last (number 5?) point...

 

Why is enjoying "simple crabbing at the beach" better than valuing seeing international locations?  International travel....even to completely over the top, over priced locations like....say Atantis Resort in Nassau.......can actually have great value.  There are things that are learned about the world, even in those types of locations, that it's hard to learn when you can't experience them.  Like, for one.....just how completely over the top those things can be lol. 

 

I have been to a lake cottage in Michigan for a week.  Jumping off the floating dock we had to swim to.  Sleeping with ALL the cousins (8 of us) on the floor in the living room while all our parents took turns sleeping on the sleeper sofa near by (because there weren't enough rooms for everyone and that sleeper sofa was uncomfortable) 

 

I have also been to London and Paris.

 

Neither memory is more valuable than the other.  They are simply valuable for different reasons.

 

 

 

She didn't say simple crabbing at the beach was better. She said she didn't want a "fancy" trip to overshadow their family things; she said she wants him to be satisfied with simpler vacations.  I think she would agree that travel is educational, come on.  

 

I could imagine a 12-year-old going to, let's say, a luxury resort in the Bahamas, and coming home feeling like the family beach house paled in comparison and being discontent with those trips. 

 

Of course not everyone would react that way, and Quill's kid may not.  But it obviously is a concern for her, and I get it.  

[Arcadia]

As to your last (number 5?) point...

 

Why is enjoying "simple crabbing at the beach" better than valuing seeing international locations? International travel....even to completely over the top, over priced locations like....say Atantis Resort in Nassau.......can actually have great value.

I am seeing OP’s last point as affordability. OP is doing beach vacations with her family while her friend offers an expensive vacation to her youngest child. My youngest boy would compare and whine and some of my relatives did whine as teens. Not saying that OP’s twelve year old son would compare and whine like my DS11 but since someone else is sponsoring the expensive trip, it gets a little trickier.

[PeachyDoodle]

Maybe I am wrong to be bothered about this, but nevertheless, I am bothered. Friends of ours often invite DS(12) to do things with their family, because they want their son to have a peer/friend along for activities. (just for information, child has a sibling; he is not an only child.) Even this somewhat bothers me, though I go along with it. These are usually things like going to a themepark for the day or some other smallish activity. It bothers me in part because I know I will probably not ever reciprocate for multiple reasons, chiefly; I am not a “more-the-merrierâ€person. But it also bothers me because I want the majority of those fun memories to be with our family. In one instance, for example, the family had my son over because we were expecting a big snow-in. This was not extravagant, of course, but it just bothered me that he wasn’t part of our family experience of the snow-in. If I say, “Remember that big Snowpacalypse...oh, wait; you weren’t here.â€

 

Anyway, the dad called DH yesterday to see if ds could go on a Big Extravagant Vacation to a Place I Could Never Afford. Fortunately, DH wasn’t keen on it and said probably not, but he would see what I thought. Frankly, I think HELLZ TO THE NO. This upsets me on many levels. NO, I don’t want the most fantastic vacation my young son has ever been on to be with someone else’s family. I don’t want him 80 jillion miles away from us. I don’t want him to accept a gift I could not reciprocate in my dizziest daydream. It bothers me that this is why, when people say kids these days are SO entitled, this is why! When you go the Paradise with friends when you are 12/13, what do you do when you get married? I am also just jealous that they can not only do a trip like this for their family, something I have wanted to do always, but that they can also just tack on two extra kids so their own kids will have a constant friend at all times. I feel like they are out-classing us, or showing us up, in a way.

 

I’m just really bothered by this. 😑

 

Yes, you are right to be bothered.

 

Signed,

The mean mom who wouldn't let her MIL take her DD to Wizarding World of Harry Potter because she selfishly wanted that memory for herself

[marbel]

Ok, so maybe it's a better question to ask.....why is it not possible to value both. 

 

Or, why does a trip to a fancy Bahamas resort automatically HAVE to overshadow the simple family camping or lake cottage trips?  Is that sort of response, by a child, automatic? 

 

It is possible to value both. I didn't say a trip to the Bahama automatically overshadows the simple family trips.  I said I could imagine it happening with some people, not everyone.  And I guess Quill can too, since she expressed the concern with regard to her own son.

 

Sorry, I don't get your questions; it seems like I answered them in the post you are quoting...? 

[Jaybee]

 

Lastly, I can’t find the post right now, but I think it was Anne who said I don’t want these fancy sort of things to overshadow our simple crabbing at the beach cottage family things. Yes. That is very accurate. I like for my kids to be satisfied with simpler things. I like them to value doing things with family. I don’t want them to think everything should revolve around them. I want them to be helpful, humble, happy people.

 

Our son had a friend who occasionally invited him to spend time with their family--a very nice, wonderful family. A family who was always going, doing, and usually spending. I was glad for him to spend time with them, but always felt that the time with them seemed to make him less satisfied with us. I wasn't jealous of them, exactly, but I didn't want my son to start wishing he was their son, or like mentioned above, unable to enjoy the simple things of life.

[amy g.]

It hasn’t been my experience that expensive holidays rob kids of the enjoyment of simpler fun.

 

I see adult kids looking back fondly on things like Tibbie’s homemade chili on real dishes, catching fireflies while they play flash light hide and seek, swimming in the lake, cooking out in the backyard together with friends.

 

I really think it is just insecurity to worry that kids are going to be influenced by another family and come to value money spent more than time spent.

Edited November 29, 2017 by amy g.

[Doodlebug]

I too struggle with what I perceive as excessiveness in the lives of my son's friends. 

 

But when I break it down, I realize it isn't about the places or activities or the dear families who operate differently... It's about struggling to name and protect a core value that is precious to me.  

 

I grew up with every material need provided for, but home was not a nurturing place.    

 

In contrast, every summer I stayed with my grandparents on their small farm.  They were highly conscious of their resources, but I wouldn't call them frugal because they were incredibly generous.  While I was there, I never went to the movies, theme parks, roller skating, etc.  I found I didn't want those things there -- I was incredibly content.  

 

I don't think turning down every activity is going to do the job of engendering that peaceful contentment.  But slowing the rapid diet of a life defined by "what so-and-so is doing"... I do that for the simple reason that it's distracting.     

 

:)

 

 

Edited November 29, 2017 by Doodlebug

[Storygirl]

I would be bothered if another family asked my child to go on an extravagant vacation. Not because I would harbor jealousy of any kind, but because I would say no, and my children would be upset. I also would find it awkward to say no to the other family.

 

This did happen once, when my oldest was about 10 and was invited to go on a beach vacation with a friend. We had good reasons to say no (I'm cautious about water; the dad was a widower, so no mom would be along, but other friends of their family would, and we didn't know them). But I did feel awkward about it.

 

It's fine for other families to invite children on their vacations, if they want to do so. I have no problem with that. But it's also fine for my family to say no.

 

I do want our family to share vacations memories. It's important to me. And I don't like to have a family member missing from home. DD15 is missing a lot, because she is a serious ballet dancer and is never home for supper and sometimes is away for weeks in the summer.

 

We choose for vacations to be a time of family togetherness. And at this stage of life, we choose not to "loan" our kids to another family for their vacation, because it means they will be missing from our family for that time.

 

It doesn't mean that I am depriving my kids if I say no. We are choosing what is right for our family.

[Carol in Cal.]

I read a parenting book written specifically for Jewish parents when I was new to motherhood.  I don't remember how I happened to do this or what the name of the book was, but I tend to read pretty broadly.  One thing it said that always stayed with me was that it is traditional for Jewish parents to hope and expect and enable their children to grow beyond what they themselves had been able to grow to or accomplish, and in turn to enable their own children to surpass them.  That really resonated with me, and it informs my views about things like this.  I want to be happy for my children to have something beyond what I have, whether it is an accomplishment or an experience or material possessions or whatever. 

 

There is a great quote along these lines from one of the first American presidents:

 

"I must study war and politics so that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy.  My sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history, naval architecture, navigation, commerce, and agriculture, in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry, and porcelain."  John Adams

 

Of course, that has to be balanced with the tendency to spoil the next generation as well.  "The Good Earth" cycle comes to mind, with the natural and classic and fairly predictable rise and fall in three generations.

[ktgrok]

Ok, so maybe it's a better question to ask.....why is it not possible to value both. 

 

Or, why does a trip to a fancy Bahamas resort automatically HAVE to overshadow the simple family camping or lake cottage trips?  Is that sort of response, by a child, automatic? 

 

Right. I mean, Quill went to this same place, and she still values family stuff. Why would the kids be different?

 

Also, honestly, this sounds WAY more like an extrovert vs introvert thing than a money thing. I don't care how rich I get, I'll never be a "go go go" person with all those activities, extra kids, etc. On the flip side I have friends with super tight budgets that are always going going going by finding all sorts of free/cheap activities and it exhausts me to even read about their weekend, lol. And yes, they often take extra kids. They aren't any more kid centered or entitled or permissive, they just LIKE living that way. 

 

And the wealthiest person I know grew up an only child of wealthy parents. She was the only friend with a TV in her room back when that wasn't common, got a brand new convertible for her 16th birthday, etc. Totally humble, grew into a nice woman with zero entitlement issues. 

[8circles]

Ok, so maybe it's a better question to ask.....why is it not possible to value both. 

 

Or, why does a trip to a fancy Bahamas resort automatically HAVE to overshadow the simple family camping or lake cottage trips?  Is that sort of response, by a child, automatic? 

 

Oh, good grief.

 

It IS possible to value both. Quill has expressed concern that MAYBE BOTH WON'T BE VALUED.

 

I think that's a valid concern.

[8circles]

I too struggle with what I perceive as excessiveness in the lives of my son's friends. 

 

But when I break it down, I realize it isn't about the places or activities or the dear families who operate differently... It's about struggling to name and protect a core value that is precious to me.  

 

I grew up with every material need provided for, but home was not a nurturing place.    

 

In contrast, every summer I stayed with my grandparents on their small farm.  They were highly conscious of their resources, but I wouldn't call them frugal because they were incredibly generous.  While I was there, I never went to the movies, theme parks, roller skating, etc.  I found I didn't want those things there -- I was incredibly content.  

 

I don't think turning down every activity is going to do the job of engendering that peaceful contentment.  But slowing the rapid diet of a life defined by "what so-and-so is doing"... I do that for the simple reason that it's distracting.     

 

:)

 

Really well-expressed, Doodlebug. I would not have been able to explain this, but this is part of how I feel as well.

[Guest]

You've taken this same trip already and couldn't afford to take the kids, but now one of the kids has the opportunity to go and you are not allowing them to go? I know you have your reasons, but I can not relate to this at all. This would make more sense to me if you had passed up your previous vacation opportunity because you couldn't go as a family. But you've already set the precedent that you take vacations where/how you can take vacations. (And that's okay! We are the same way. We can't afford to do much with our children, so we take opportunities that head our way and run with them.)

 

I'm sorry, truly. I don't mean to beat you while you're down, and you're obviously struggling with this. I do hope you come to a conclusion everyone is satisfied with.

No. I took the same trip AS MY SIL just recently took and in which she also brought their kids plus an extra friend to entertain their dd. In 2011, DH and I went on a cruise; I would have loved to take the kids but would either never go, or not go until all my kids have moved out, or go and leave them with gma. So we went and left them with gma.

 

The trip my son is being invited on is probably not one I will ever take unless I win it or something.

[SeaConquest]

It would be so nice if we could get past the preconceived notion that wealthy people aren't close to their families, and that they raise entitled brats, and are showing off or expect reciprocation when they do nice things for their kids' friends.

 

Some of us here are "that other family" and when we do nice things for other people's kids, I can confidently tell you that we're not showing off or trying to steal their children away from them and indoctrinate them into our so-called privileged lives. Our kids like certain other kids. The kids don't care how much -- or how little -- money the family has (and neither do we.) They just like the kids and want to be their friends and want to include them in our activities because they are fun to be with. There's no ulterior motive.

 

Honestly, if the parents in Quill's situation were the kind of people some are assuming they are, they would be too snobby to let their kids be around Quill's kids. From where I'm sitting, the "other family" sounds very nice. I think it's quite a compliment to Quill's son that the family likes him so much that they love including him in as many of their family activities as possible. And if Quill thinks her son is spending too much time with that family and not enough time at home, she can simply decline some of the invitations.

 

But I have to admit that it sounds like she's declining the vacation invitation for the wrong reasons. It sounds like she is jealous that her son will have fun without the rest of the family, and I think that's selfish. I can understand being worried about him being so far from home without her, but that doesn't seem to be the primary motivation here. We don't even know if her son wants to go on this vacation. For all we know, he might not even want to go.

 

All of this, but especially the bolded. Quill, you sound like you are having a tough go of things right now because, honestly, I cannot imagine getting worked up over movies and laser tag. I think you may have some issues that you need to work through that are coloring your perspective on this.

 

Friends of ours recently sold their company for 80 million dollars. When we met them, they were living in their parent's home (they are in their early 40s) with their kids, so they could put every dime into the business. (The parents were Vietnamese refugees and owned a dry cleaners.) Am I jealous of their success? Of course! But, I don't let that stop us (and our kids) from enjoying their company even though they now own a historical monument in San Diego, a lake house in Tahoe, and a pied a terre in Manhattan. Yes, their three kids now attend a school that costs them over 100k per year, birthday parties are now catered and have exotic animal shows, and they vacation in Turks and Caicos, but they are still fundamentally the same people we have known and loved for many years. And I only know that to be true because I have set my jealousy aside and continued to enjoy our friendship with them.   

[Guest]

Just a quick note, not that it will make any difference, but DS does not know this was offered. He will probably not ever know unless the other parents stupidly tell him, but I highly doubt they will make any hay over it. Some other friend will jump at the chance to go and if the boy ever says, “I would rather have had M along,†presumably the parents will simply say, “I know, but he was not able to.†And that will be all.

 

It’s not as though we’re all going to sit down, tell DS what’s being offered and then say, “but we’ve declined.†Dur. Of course we won’t be doing that.

[Guest]

Also, there seems to be a lot of extrapolation that supposes I am saying every child with wealthy parents grows up to be an entitled jerk. I did not say that. Heck, my MIL was “secretly†wealthy all those years, but she also made the kids milk the cows and build their own bikes so they wouldn’t get some crazy notion that things should easily come their way.

 

I’m talking about the way this family is. And I am commenting that they aren’t the only family I see with this sort of lavish focus on the kids. Among a certain segment of people, I see a lot of this. The parents seem to be flaunting the ability to be lavish with their kids. It’s one of the things that I have preferred about my homeschooling community all of these years; that attitude is rarer in homeschooling communities. In the wider affluent community, the flaunting started with who had their kids in Gymboree classes from birth and who had their babies dressed head-to-toe in fancy baby outfits and it continued on up to which travel sports clubs you could be in and what kinds of birthday parties you could do and so on. If others don’t encounter that - well, I guess you don’t. But I saw a lot of it before I found my homeschool niche and I jave seen a lot of it again since my older kids have been in private school.

[Catwoman]

But it's FUSSELL! Dear God, we're talking FUSSELL!

You know...FUSSELL?!

Sheesh. Wow. Just wow. SMH. Good grief.

  

And in NEW England!! Not even regular England!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Catwoman]

Just a quick note, not that it will make any difference, but DS does not know this was offered. He will probably not ever know unless the other parents stupidly tell him, but I highly doubt they will make any hay over it. Some other friend will jump at the chance to go and if the boy ever says, “I would rather have had M along,†presumably the parents will simply say, “I know, but he was not able to.†And that will be all.

 

It’s not as though we’re all going to sit down, tell DS what’s being offered and then say, “but we’ve declined.†Dur. Of course we won’t be doing that.

Personally, I would tell him, and explain your reasoning to him. It would be terrible if he found out that his friend had invited another boy along and didn't invite him. Your son's feelings might be very hurt.

 

Also, your son isn't a little kid any more. I'm sure his friend will say something to him about the trip, and might even ask him why he can't go.

 

I don't think it's right to be dishonest or secretive about this. I think your son has the right to know he was invited.

[SeaConquest]

Also, there seems to be a lot of extrapolation that supposes I am saying every child with wealthy parents grows up to be an entitled jerk. I did not say that. Heck, my MIL was “secretly†wealthy all those years, but she also made the kids milk the cows and build their own bikes so they wouldn’t get some crazy notion that things should easily come their way.

 

I’m talking about the way this family is. And I am commenting that they aren’t the only family I see with this sort of lavish focus on the kids. Among a certain segment of people, I see a lot of this. The parents seem to be flaunting the ability to be lavish with their kids. It’s one of the things that I have preferred about my homeschooling community all of these years; that attitude is rarer in homeschooling communities. In the wider affluent community, the flaunting started with who had their kids in Gymboree classes from birth and who had their babies dressed head-to-toe in fancy baby outfits and it continued on up to which travel sports clubs you could be in and what kinds of birthday parties you could do and so on. If others don’t encounter that - well, I guess you don’t. But I saw a lot of it before I found my homeschool niche and I jave seen a lot of it again since my older kids have been in private school.

 

For me, it's a love language issue. Some people's primary love language is gift giving (my Mom's is), so what seems lavish to you might simply be an extension of their love in their eyes. The trick is knowing what the recipient's primary love language is (my husband's is physical touch, so I don't buy gifts for him to show him my love). Now, you might think that gift giving as a primary love language is some sort of character flaw, and you're entitled to that opinion, of course. But, I would venture to guess that you likely just have a different primary love language. And I think it is worth recognizing that different people have different ways of expressing their affection. I mean, my mom tries really hard, but acts of service just aren't her thing -- they never will be -- and I understand that now and appreciate her for who she is (vs. who I might wish her to be).

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Five_Love_Languages

Edited November 29, 2017 by SeaConquest

[TechWife]

Personally, I would tell him, and explain your reasoning to him. It would be terrible if he found out that his friend had invited another boy along and didn't invite him. Your son's feelings might be very hurt.

 

Also, your son isn't a little kid any more. I'm sure his friend will say something to him about the trip, and might even ask him why he can't go.

 

I don't think it's right to be dishonest or secretive about this. I think your son has the right to know he was invited.

 

Why would it be terrible if Quill's son found out his friend invited someone else to go on a trip with him? They aren't married to each other - they are friends. Most people have more than one friend. Many people have more than one really good friend. 

 

I wouldn't assume the other boy knew he was being invited. The parents may have decided to extend the invite and only tell their son if Quill's ds was able to join them. Honestly, that's the way that I would handle it. If the friend asked the parents to invite Quill's ds, then they likely told him that it was a decision for the adults to make and that he shouldn't mention it to his friend until they had a chance to discuss it as parents. I know my parents had that little talk with me on more than one occasion about get togethers with friends and other families. 

 

Not mentioning this to her son is neither dishonest or secretive. Children aren't entitled to know everything that their parents are doing or the decisions they are presented with. 

[eternalsummer]

But Quill, you surely spend a lot more on your kids than people did 50 years ago.  They have electronics and sports opportunities and probably more food variety and heck, you homeschool them!  Does that make you bad?  Does it make them entitled?  It's just what you can afford and want to do, is all.  

 

Most of us homeschool or have homeschooled our kids, which is generally an expensive proposition - even if it doesn't cost anything directly, the lost income from the extra wage earner is significant.  We sacrifice that because we think homeschooling in our situation has some positive benefit that is worth the cost, but it's not because we're overly child-centric or flaunting our wealth (the ability to stay home is wealth) - it's just a choice we've made, that we're lucky to be able to make, about one aspect of child-raising.

 

Some people don't feel that way about homeschooling - they could sacrifice the extra wage and stay home, but they don't.  Instead, maybe they spend some of the income on travel sports, or fancy vacations, or a brand new car, or a newer IPhone.  Just because they've chosen to spend their earning power in a different way from you doesn't make them elitist snobs who are flaunting their wealth.

[KungFuPanda]

Oh goodness, this idea that family isn't as important to the upper class isn't my notion, it's sociologist Paul Fussel's, and I learned it at a highly selective New England University. I thought it was ridiculous too, until I spent more time with the families of my friends that WERE boarding school educated trust fund babies, and saw that it did seem to be an entirely different dynamic than even that of my upper middle class friends. Then I got engaged to the child of investment bankers and after the round of parties and dinners and everything slowly figured out that they DID have completely different and off-putting values. Now Fussell would say this is because my family was varying shades of middle class and the guy I was engaged to was clearly upper. I would shade that with the idea that Fussell was focused on the differences between New England upper class and that the Civil War changed the class indicators in the South to some degree (I think family is more important in the South).

 

I don't know what's happened on the board this week, perhaps holiday stress is making everyone a bit petulant. I don't agree with Quill but I think several people here aren't being their normally diplomatic selves or recognizing that anyone who's been here for longer than two months KNOWS that Quill is an amazing woman who is just venting and you can all stop judging her. Just stop.

YOU’RE NOT THE BOSS OF ME! 😛

 

Quill, I’m judging you so hard right now!

[JennyD]

 The parents seem to be flaunting the ability to be lavish with their kids. It’s one of the things that I have preferred about my homeschooling community all of these years; that attitude is rarer in homeschooling communities. 

 

I know that the conversation here is focusing on material goods, but I sometimes feel this way about the vast amount of time and attention that DH and I lavish on our children.  We homeschool, which as far as I am concerned is the most expensive private school possible -- if you add up all o my lost income, compounded over time -- and then DH has basically structured his work life to maximize every moment possible with the kids. And just like the children who grow up in mansions, my kids take it all for granted and think that this is totally normal.  

 

ETA: Cross-posted with the PP who made the same point :)

Edited November 29, 2017 by JennyD

[Catwoman]

Why would it be terrible if Quill's son found out his friend invited someone else to go on a trip with him? They aren't married to each other - they are friends. Most people have more than one friend. Many people have more than one really good friend. 

 

I wouldn't assume the other boy knew he was being invited. The parents may have decided to extend the invite and only tell their son if Quill's ds was able to join them. Honestly, that's the way that I would handle it. If the friend asked the parents to invite Quill's ds, then they likely told him that it was a decision for the adults to make and that he shouldn't mention it to his friend until they had a chance to discuss it as parents. I know my parents had that little talk with me on more than one occasion about get togethers with friends and other families. 

 

Not mentioning this to her son is neither dishonest or secretive. Children aren't entitled to know everything that their parents are doing or the decisions they are presented with.

 

We will have to agree to disagree. I consider not telling her son that he was invited is both dishonest and secretive, and I do think her son has the right to know about it.

 

We don't keep big secrets in our family.

[Corraleno]

This thread has been really eye-opening to me. The desire to ensure that my child's best memories include me, to the point of preventing them from having potentially amazing experiences because they will happen with someone else... I just don't get that. At all. Obviously plenty of other people get it, but I find it baffling. I don't see my kids, or their "childhood memories," as personal possessions I can hoard for myself or "loan" to other people (as another poster put it). 

 

No one on this planet will ever love these two people more fiercely or more unconditionally than I do. No matter what other memories they have of their childhoods, no matter how many cool things they do or amazing places they go, they will always know that they grew up with a mother who loved them more than life itself and did everything I could to make sure they knew that, every day, every month, every year, no matter what. What is a trip to Europe compared to that? Why would I feel threatened by my kids doing fun things with other people?

 

I honestly don't get it.  :confused1:

[Liz CA]

We will have to agree to disagree. I consider not telling her son that he was invited is both dishonest and secretive, and I do think her son has the right to know about it.

 

We don't keep big secrets in our family.

 

Worse yet, it could come out - most likely would come out since the boys are talking to each other. Quill's son could really resent being left out of the loop on this. He is only 12 (if I got this right) but old enough to be told of the invitation and also explained the reasons why he is not going (unless Quill changes her mind :) )

[Catwoman]

Worse yet, it could come out - most likely would come out since the boys are talking to each other. Quill's son could really resent being left out of the loop on this. He is only 12 (if I got this right) but old enough to be told of the invitation and also explained the reasons why he is not going (unless Quill changes her mind :) )

:iagree:

 

I don't have any problem at all with Quill deciding that her son won't be allowed to go on the trip. It's her decision to make. But I think she should own that decision and be honest with her son about it.

 

If she doesn't tell him and he finds out on his own, it could really come back to bite her, because then it becomes a trust issue. He's not five years old. He's old enough to understand what's going on, and is old enough to be a part of a conversation about the trip.

[TechWife]

 

You see, chances are very high that they don't like their kids and they don't want to spend time alone with them so they are instead filling their lives with other people to keep them busy.

 

 

 

Wow - that's quite an assumption. 

 

For the record, I'm not saying that all families with assets like that are unhappy.  At all. Simply that it's not as idyllic because the family togetherness/closeness thing is not as important.  The values are different.  To my mind, they can be more empty, but not everyone would see it that way. 

 

Off topic, but Paul Fussell would say that my valuing family closeness is very middle class, and while I think the classes have different distinctions in different areas of the country, he may be correct.

 

 

...

One’s assets do not dictate values.

...

It is very simplistic to think that you know what a family values just because you have info on their bank account.

 

Absolutely! 

 

Oh goodness, this idea that family isn't as important to the upper class isn't my notion, it's sociologist Paul Fussel's, and I learned it at a highly selective New England University.  I thought it was ridiculous too, until I spent more time with the families of my friends that WERE boarding school educated trust fund babies, and saw that it did seem to be an entirely different dynamic than even that of my upper middle class friends.  Then I got engaged to the child of investment bankers and after the round of parties and dinners and everything slowly figured out that they DID have completely different and off-putting values.  Now Fussell would say this is because my family was varying shades of middle class and the guy I was engaged to was clearly upper.  I would shade that with the idea that Fussell was focused on the differences between New England upper class and that the Civil War changed the class indicators in the South to some degree (I think family is more important in the South).

 

 

 

 

Off putting to you is attractive to another, I would guess. I'm not put off by the fact that others live their lives differently, in part, due to their economic resources. The "upper class" people I know are kind, considerate and know how to converse and enjoy the company of people from a variety of backgrounds. They have interesting get-togethers because they have invite their friends, who are people from many different interests, hobbies and professions and, I would guess from that context, many different income levels. They pass along those same characteristics to their children.

 

I think taking research on a group of people that lived over 100 years ago and trying to apply it to our culture today is not really a good idea. Fussell, whom I have never heard of, sounds kind of arrogant. I learned my sociology in a small, non-selective public university in the deep south, FWIW. There's no way to tell which of us got the better education based upon the facts given, though. 

[TechWife]

I have written several responses and deleted them all.  

 

I guess what it boils down to for me is this:  if I felt like they were trying to buy my son's affections, I wouldn't be at all happy.  If I felt like they were extending affection, I would be very happy.

 

Here is the thing I always told my son (an only):  When you get older, it will be important that you have someone in your life who holds your past, who has known you all along.  You don't have brothers and sisters, so we're going to be faithful to the friends who you can know all your life. 

 

And to do that, we have to have shared experiences.  So yeah, we invited a kid (and sometimes the parents) to come along on beach weeks with us, or to go to Hawaii with us.  We paid for our son to go to Italy on the school classics trip.  We left him with friends for long weekends, some as simple as sledding or just hanging out.

 

Otherwise, when we die (and we are older parents), he will have no one who holds his past.  I have come to value that more and more as I have aged, and the fact that I have my sister and my junior-senior high BFF in my life means more to me each year.  

 

To tell you the truth, I wish others had been *less* exclusive about their family life and experiences.  I wish there had been a bit of openness to non-blood people at the Thanksgiving table.  For people like us with small and aging families, it can be lonely at the holidays, during school breaks, and shared memories are a terrific bond of friendship.  

 

My parents belonged to a bridge club for 50 years, and all the kids grew up knowing one another.  Even though we were not close or even friends in the same high school (!), when I reconnected with them a couple of years ago, we had SO much to talk and laugh about--really fun memories that not one person from post-high school shares with me.  We had a wonderful time, and have a closeness that can only come from shared memories.  Even though my parents did not share these memories, they made them possible.  

 

All of your posts on this thread of resonated with me! We, too, have one son, and holidays are far to quiet around here sometimes! 

 

Also, about parents' friends. Wow. Both of my parents died last year, just seven weeks apart. The people that showed up to their funerals were amazing! With both of them, but especially my mom. The people we choose to be our friends as adults make a huge impact on our children's life. I was speechless at my mom's funeral when I realized that, with one exception, the people who carried my parent's caskets were the children of their friends. The one exception was a close family friend who was still young & hearty enough to carry a casket. Like you, we weren't always close as children, but the memories we share together made us laugh so much and it was truly wonderful. Likewise, to have my parent's friends there, people who had known me, in some instances, since I was a baby, was something i truly appreciated. They have memories of my parent's that I do not have, and I was so blessed by them sharing with us. I looked around those rooms and knew that they were willing and ready to step in and be a surrogate parent to us kids. 

 

I'm gonna go get the kleenex now...

[amy g.]

Too funny, but one of the Urban Dictionary meanings for Fussell is “a wrong judgement.â€