Religious questions from an atheist

[Epicurean]

Can we talk about this while remaining civil?

 

Bertrand Russell was once asked what he'd say if he died an atheist and met God in the afterlife. He replied, "Not enough evidence, God! Not enough evidence!" I feel like I'm in the same boat.

 

Why do you think it is that God doesn't reveal himself to people who are seeking him?

 

How do you deal with the fact that God seems to be a deity of coincidences--he heals Christians and non-Christians at the same rate, what is often attributed to God's work is often in conjunction with medical science ("God healed her cancer!" when she was taking chemo, for example). If someone loses a leg and prays for God's healing, it's not like God regrows the limb.

 

Why didn't Jesus drop some science on his audience that could later confirm he divine knowledge of how things work? Like if he explained germ theory or at least emphasized the importance of washing one's hands, he could have saved billions of lives on top of making a case for his divinity. Or he could have talked about the planets or something.

 

I am not asking these questions as a "Gotcha!" I'm really struggling because I feel like without something...more...to go on, if I were to become religious, I'd just be lying to myself. I'd chalk up every tingly feeling as a divine presence, and every stroke of luck as confirmation that God was interceding on my behalf. But really I'd know that I was just faking it because reality was too hard to bear. I don't know how to get past these doubts.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I'd like to respond as someone who has converted to Christianity from agnosticism/atheism... without having had any sort of spiritual epiphany.  
 
First, before reading the rest of my post, please go watch this video on selective attention.  It has nothing to do with religion, but is important to your questions
Selective Attention Test
 
You should really watch the video before reading the following (highlight below to see):
This is why "evidence" and "proof" are a difficult concept.  For all we know, the proof is literally right in front of our eyes (like the gorilla) but we are totally focused on something else.  This same phenomenon occurs it eye-witness testimonies, reliability of our own memories, etc.  Some people see the proof of God in every blade of grass and every twinkle in a baby's eye.  Others don't.  Who has it right?  Is math made to be logical and self-evident, or is it logical and self-evident because we are discovering something greater than ourselves?  One person sees proof of a materialist universe, another sees proof of God.  Proof is not as easy as, "Show me xyz".  I guess I would ask, what would proof look like to you?  
 
I don't deal with coincidences.  I do struggle with prayer and what exactly it does/doesn't do.  I struggle with this so much, in fact, that I cannot bring myself to ask for concrete things.  I tend to pray for things like "courage" or "strength" to deal, rather than a miraculous cure.  I will make exceptions to this for very small children out of desperation for miracles.  My skepticism really stands in my way of having a more spiritual life.  I say that to show it is possible to "be religious" without being good at every aspect of it.  Real Christians (or insert any other religion) can spend periods of time, or whole lives, struggling with belief and faith.  To me, it really comes down to love/faith/belief being acts of the Will and not uncontrollable emotions.  I cannot control my "emotional faith" but I can choose to have faith when it is really hard to do so, by a force of Will.  
 
Jesus's main mission wasn't to improve our daily terrestrial lives.  It wasn't his mission.  A (hypothetical) time-traveller could go back and explain germ theory (and probably be horribly misunderstood, possibly killed for it) but only Jesus could make a case for salvation.  I think this is a huge difference in thought between religious and non-religious.  While religious people certainly want good, comfortable lives for everyone... it is not the primary goal.  For atheists/materialists (I'm using the word in the philosophical sense, meaning a universe that is purely physical, not spiritual), improving life here on Earth is the primary goal because it is the only life there is and therefore top priority.  This can express itself selfishly (everything for me!) or altruistically (let's improve life all around us!).  
 
Regarding your last paragraph, no, religion doesn't have to be full of tingly feelings = God.  I certainly don't attribute every happy thing to God's divine intervention.  But yes, I am religious because reality without God is too hard to bear.  I think that's a fair reason to come to God, if not the most "romantic".  Belief doesn't have to be a sudden gut feeling, it can be a choice.

[Guest]

I have a lot of those same questions, though I live as a Christian. In reality, I am pretty much a Deist, although I have - I don’t know, some “warm†feelings towards Jesus. But I do sometimes think that is a product of my highly religious upbringing.

 

I think part of the answer to the question about why didn’t Jesus show people something more compelling is easily explained in that people were not ready to understand those things and largely would not have believed him. As it is, he was often hated for the wonders he purportedly did perform. Religious leaders were mad that he healed people on the Sabbath. Also, going back to the laws given to Moses, some of the laws almost do seem to understand germ theory, although they were not explained to the Israelites that way. For example, there were rules about not defecating in the camp and burying excrement. There were laws about preparing and touching a dead body. Laws about avoiding contact with blood does also make sense in modern science.

 

My mother is a very devout Christian and some of the things she believes to be caused by “angels†or “God†are honestly fanciful to me. Her first explanation in every situation is God, while my first explanation is something like, “that’s just what happened.†I admit that I do find it very interesting, though, when a really unlikely (favorable) coincidence happens.

[Ausmumof3]

Can we talk about this while remaining civil?

 

Bertrand Russell was once asked what he'd say if he died an atheist and met God in the afterlife. He replied, "Not enough evidence, God! Not enough evidence!" I feel like I'm in the same boat.

 

Why do you think it is that God doesn't reveal himself to people who are seeking him?

 

How do you deal with the fact that God seems to be a deity of coincidences--he heals Christians and non-Christians at the same rate, what is often attributed to God's work is often in conjunction with medical science ("God healed her cancer!" when she was taking chemo, for example). If someone loses a leg and prays for God's healing, it's not like God regrows the limb.

 

Why didn't Jesus drop some science on his audience that could later confirm he divine knowledge of how things work? Like if he explained germ theory or at least emphasized the importance of washing one's hands, he could have saved billions of lives on top of making a case for his divinity. Or he could have talked about the planets or something.

 

I am not asking these questions as a "Gotcha!" I'm really struggling because I feel like without something...more...to go on, if I were to become religious, I'd just be lying to myself. I'd chalk up every tingly feeling as a divine presence, and every stroke of luck as confirmation that God was interceding on my behalf. But really I'd know that I was just faking it because reality was too hard to bear. I don't know how to get past these doubts.

I'm wading in somewhat tentatively because I don't have all the answers and I struggle with a lot of these questions. I think one thing that comes in is what is the actual mission of Jesus? If it was to purely to reduce human suffering in life now then in a way it was all kind of pointless. Because God could have theoretically made a suffering free world on the first place. But suffering is kind of like pain in that it exists to tell us something is wrong. Actually not being able to feel pain is dangerous and suffering acts in the same way to show us that something is wrong. The something being that we are separated from God.

 

The fact that Jesus was moved by suffering to compassion shows us that God feels compassion for our sufferings and want to end them. However it has to be done in the right time or way. Hence bible verses that tell us the suffering is for a moment but the reward forever. Also it's to show that we need to have that same feeling of compassion and desire to help and heal.

[Ausmumof3]

One other thing is that if you follow the bible from the ot all the way through - and accept it - God tried the direct speech, thunder and lightning thing with Israel in the Old Testament and it didn't work. He needed the "small voice" - a human voice that could understand and touch hearts instead of just impressing minds.

[Guest]

Monica, that was a fascinating video! I know what selective attention is and how it functions, but being “played†so perfectly myself (yup, got the right number; nope didn’t pay attention.) was very interesting. I am not able to read your hidden text; maybe because it doesn’t work right on the iPad.

 

But this:

I don't deal with coincidences. I do struggle with prayer and what exactly it does/doesn't do. I struggle with this so much, in fact, that I cannot bring myself to ask for concrete things. I tend to pray for things like "courage" or "strength" to deal, rather than a miraculous cure. I will make exceptions to this for very small children out of desperation for miracles. My skepticism really stands in my way of having a more spiritual life. I say that to show it is possible to "be religious" without being good at every aspect of it. Real Christians (or insert any other religion) can spend periods of time, or whole lives, struggling with belief and faith. To me, it really comes down to love/faith/belief being acts of the Will and not uncontrollable emotions. I cannot control my "emotional faith" but I can choose to have faith when it is really hard to do so, by a force of Will.

This is me exactly. I will sometimes pray in the traditional sense for critically ill people or desparate situations. But I am more the “healing thoughts/good vibes†meditative sort of pray-er. For several years, I was in a lot of turmoil, truly a crisis of faith, because of things that don’t make sense to me. But I guess this is where I have landed, though you are articulating it better than I do. I decided to remain in the faith. I want my kids to grow up with that hope, regardless of how it actually pans out for their own faith. So I stay.

[Rosie_0801]

Why do you think it is that God doesn't reveal himself to people who are seeking him?

 

I think some people like big picture and some people like details. Some people like to be up a tree, surveying the scenery. Others like to be on the ground, weeding and planting marigold borders.

 

I think the people who find their deity/ies find him/her/it because that is the best way for them to process the human experience; and those who don't, process better though other mediums.

 

 

A substance abuse counsellor and I were chatting a while back, and he wondered how I manage life without doing any of that. I thought it was an odd thing to say. Surely an expert in dysfunctional coping mechanisms is also an expert in healthy/ier coping mechanisms. If I ever run into him again, I shall have to put that to him, lol.

 

If you want to be religious but can't manage it, there are other places to look.

[marbel]

I am a life-long Christian and I struggle with doubts from time to time.  I never had a big conversion moment, but over time I have come to see God differently than I did as a child, young adult... Many of my thoughts have already been expressed here, particularly Monica's. 

 

I do see evidence of God everywhere I go. I truly can't accept the notion that the world was not created.  And I see people who have suffered far more than I have praising and thanking God even in the midst of adversity and tragedy.  Think of Holocaust survivors who did not lose their faith despite experiencing unimaginable horrors and losing everything else, including (and most importantly) loved ones.   What do/did they know or see that I (sometimes) don't?  

 

Anyway, I mostly came here to recommend a book, if you are interested: Making Sense of God: An Invitation to the Skeptical (link to Westminster Bookstore).  It was very helpful to me during some times of doubts.  

 

ETA: The fact that you are questioning your beliefs makes me wonder if God is working in your life in some way right now.  

Edited November 15, 2017 by marbel

[Bluegoat]

This is always a question that flummoxes me from people, just because it is so different from the way I think about things.  I really have to try and imagine myself starting from a very unfamiliar place!  

 

I'd say that there are a few different ways to approach a question like this.  But for me I think I'd start by saying, you are really thinking about two different things.  One is what is God, in a general sense, and the second is, why would we thing the Hellenic-Hebrew God really is God, or why Christ is God.

 

It's for the former question that I've always found Russell to be weird to me - the existence of God in this sense, as a first cause, or the underlying reality of what we see, seems to me to be fairly straightforward.  The "evidence" is that anything exists at all, that it is ordered and understandable and knowable.  That there is some kind of metaphysical or logical first cause of some kind, seems inarguable, that it must be a unity, self-existent.  And this does not seem that different that what many people take for granted in the sciences (the idea of a first cause of the universe, only limited to the physically observable.)

 

Anyway, that of course is the basis of almost all the religions, as well as many non-religious worldview, which is why it gets called the perennial philosophy.  It doesn't get you to Christianity, if that's what you want.  

 

As far as why God, or Christ, would not have done something more obvious to indicate that one ought to be a Christian.  One thing that comes to my mind immediately is that Christ says to this question in another context that it would not make a difference.  People who are not wishing to believe, or don't want to change their lives, won't, anyway.  He gives as examples people who see him perform miracles in person and still don't believe.  

 

For an individual thinking about this that doesn't seem that comforting, I think, as we imagine that we would be different, and also like a cop-out that someone trying to con you might give.  I guess all I can say there is that I think the psychological insight is probably true - very often people who see a thing in front of them with their own eyes choose not to believe it, if it simply does not fit in with the way they see the world working.  No miracle would really accomplish what you are asking.

 

(We could also ask, to what extent would it be in God's nature to do things that are outside of nature - there is a sense in which the miracles we do see in Scripture have rather particular characteristics in terms of how they fit in to the world.)

 

We could talk a bit about free will.  In most of Christian theology, perhaps not in certain Calvinist strains, the idea of human beings having free will is really quite important, it's seen as characteristic of human life, a reflection in a certain way of God's nature too.  This seems to include, for us, the possibility of asserting untrue things to be true, and true things to be untrue.  We can choose, as an act of will or an act of love, the Good.

 

If God gave "evidence" of himself that was so powerful that it would convince anyone, even those who were not disposed to be convinced, it's hard to see what that might make of free will.  We could also talk about that in terms of relationship - in Christianity God is understood to be a little bit like a person - not just a kind of force, but someone it is possible to have something like a relationship with.  But, you can't really coerce a relationship, even intellectually.  

 

Another point is that Christianity is a religion that claims certain historical facts to be true, particularly around the life of Jesus.  We have a tendency to look at this and ask for scientific types of evidence.  But of course, that's really not reasonable or rational for any historical question - we don't answer historical questions that way, you don't have historical proofs like you have mathematical proofs.  Historical evidence always requires a lot of interpretation, and when we are talking about as much distance as we have from the ancient world, we are often working with very little.  So, I think here it is really up to us to understand the way historians evaluate historical evidence and look at the historical claims of Christianity appropriately.  The lack of evidence in that area is mostly just our own lack of learning.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Monica, that was a fascinating video! I know what selective attention is and how it functions, but being “played†so perfectly myself (yup, got the right number; nope didn’t pay attention.) was very interesting. I am not able to read your hidden text; maybe because it doesn’t work right on the iPad.

 

But this:

This is me exactly. I will sometimes pray in the traditional sense for critically ill people or desparate situations. But I am more the “healing thoughts/good vibes†meditative sort of pray-er. For several years, I was in a lot of turmoil, truly a crisis of faith, because of things that don’t make sense to me. But I guess this is where I have landed, though you are articulating it better than I do. I decided to remain in the faith. I want my kids to grow up with that hope, regardless of how it actually pans out for their own faith. So I stay.

 

 

Here is my text: 

 

This is why "evidence" and "proof" are a difficult concept.  For all we know, the proof is literally right in front of our eyes (like the gorilla) but we are totally focused on something else.  This same phenomenon occurs it eye-witness testimonies, reliability of our own memories, etc.  Some people see the proof of God in every blade of grass and every twinkle in a baby's eye.  Others don't.  Who has it right?  Is math made to be logical and self-evident, or is it logical and self-evident because we are discovering something greater than ourselves?  One person sees proof of a materialist universe, another sees proof of God.  Proof is not as easy as, "Show me xyz".  I guess I would ask, what would proof look like to you?  

 

........

 

I had my kids watch after I posted, and they both saw it and counted correctly, no problem.  I guess we really do need to "be as children" !  

[creekland]

Can we talk about this while remaining civil?

 

Bertrand Russell was once asked what he'd say if he died an atheist and met God in the afterlife. He replied, "Not enough evidence, God! Not enough evidence!" I feel like I'm in the same boat.

 

Why do you think it is that God doesn't reveal himself to people who are seeking him?

 

How do you deal with the fact that God seems to be a deity of coincidences--he heals Christians and non-Christians at the same rate, what is often attributed to God's work is often in conjunction with medical science ("God healed her cancer!" when she was taking chemo, for example). If someone loses a leg and prays for God's healing, it's not like God regrows the limb.

 

Why didn't Jesus drop some science on his audience that could later confirm he divine knowledge of how things work? Like if he explained germ theory or at least emphasized the importance of washing one's hands, he could have saved billions of lives on top of making a case for his divinity. Or he could have talked about the planets or something.

 

I am not asking these questions as a "Gotcha!" I'm really struggling because I feel like without something...more...to go on, if I were to become religious, I'd just be lying to myself. I'd chalk up every tingly feeling as a divine presence, and every stroke of luck as confirmation that God was interceding on my behalf. But really I'd know that I was just faking it because reality was too hard to bear. I don't know how to get past these doubts.

 

I think my view of God tends to be rather different than what is common.  I solidified my beliefs in "a" creator due to science - looking at all I studied while in college - and knowing there was literally no way it could all have happened by chance - not the Universe, Solar System, Earth, Plants, or Life of any sort.  When it comes down to it, there are only two options for this.  Chance or Eternal Creator who is far larger than any of it.  I respect those who choose either option, but for me, it can't be chance.

 

So, with my foundation set, I started to look to see "what" creator.  I made the assumption that it would have been one of the larger ones - that no creator would want to remain hidden or believed by just a small group of people.  I studied what the main religions believe.  I settled on Christianity as being the most plausible, BUT with the knowledge that those teaching us about Christianity are still men with human failings.  I read the Bible.  I believe the Bible.  But I'm not necessarily among those who believe that all the interpretations about the Bible are accurate - esp when some of the mainstream dogmas go rather against what is written if one actually reads the text in more than one spot.

 

Why does God not reveal himself more?  My thoughts are that He does not want a vending machine set of followers.  If Christians (or whatever faith) were always rich, healed, or whatever, is one following God due to appreciation and love - or for materialistic reasons - to get what we want?

 

Why pray?  I think God commands that to keep our minds focused on "life," - how ours can change in a snap moment - how we need each other - keeping compassion for one another - or even celebrating with one another when there is praise.  It keeps community.  I don't believe the Prosperity Gospel (The Vending Machine Gospel - insert x prayer or x amount of money and get what you wish for).  When I read the Bible I don't see that happening either.  I see plenty of folks dying and suffering, even though they were prayed for and lived a Christian life.  It's not the main thing the stories are written about (it's in the background of the stories), but "news" today doesn't focus on the "normal" either.  It focuses on the abnormal.  Humans are humans.

 

I don't give credit to God for the bad or good in my life.  I thank Him for the good and ask for assistance with the bad, but I know I'm nothing special and did nothing special to get either.  If there were a disaster and I lived, I'd be thankful, but not assume I was special while the person next to me who died was not.  I would mainly assume that God has more He wants me to do while I'm here on earth.  Then I'd ask Him for assistance to deal with Survivor's Guilt!

 

There are things I wish the Creator had set up differently in this world - esp the unfairness of the birth lottery - but I'm not Grand Pumba, so I just get to do the best I can to try to right wrongs.  I think that's what we're expected to do.  I think that's our purpose in life - that and treating absolutely everyone, rich, poor, and in between, as equal humans.  I have little respect for those who claim faith, but in reality their life is all about getting whatever they can while walking all over those less fortunate than themselves.  I'm not sure God is impressed with their "faith" either, but I'm only judging for myself.  I'll let Him judge for himself.  My thoughts come from this parable (if curious):

 

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25:31-46

 

That's me.  No judgment at all on those who come to different conclusions looking at the same evidence.  My faith is between God and me.  But I still love "you" (generic you) even if we disagree - and I'd do my best to help you out in life the same way I would do it for someone who shared my faith.

 

I am 100% certain in what I believe (cultivated it over years of study), so there's no bother for me in listening to others who differ.  I don't debate though - not my jollies.  I just share when folks ask.

 

 

Edited November 15, 2017 by creekland

[Bluegoat]

As far as the question of prayers.

 

I like the phrase you used Creekland, about vending machine Christians - it's very evocative.

 

What I would say is, why do we think that prayer is supposed to work that way?  I think that is kind of a small child's idea of prayer.

 

That's a bit of a problem in general with people's understanding of religious ideas - most people get a little Sunday School level knowledge, but that's as far as it goes.  So they are adults walking around with a grade 4 understanding and of course it doesn't hold up, any more than a grade 4 understanding of gravity or ethics would.

 

I would say that a right understanding of prayer has two elements.  It's meant to bring us, individually, closer to God, in that sense it is a kind of meditation.  Many types of prayer have nothing to do with asking for something.  But even praying for something specific, like healing or food, helps us understand our dependance.

 

The other element is that from a Christian perspective, all elements of reality are related, and they are related, ultimately, through God.  THis is across space and even time.  The ecology of the Earth, of the universe, is not only biological and physical, its moral, spiritual, mathematical, and personal.  This is how we say that prayer can in fact be affective, have real results, though they may not be predictable in their individuality.  The whole of reality is too much for us to conceptualize, so we cannot see how everything relates.  And yet we know they are related, that our thoughts and the orientation of our will and the kind of person that makes us do have a reality, a kind of potency, within all of those relations.  Everything is i relation to the First Principle that moves all things, and one of the things we believe is that it also responds to us, which means that even time is not an absolute barrier because that Principle exists outside of time.

 

 

But in terms of giving us visible results we could point to and say - those are God's people - how could that possibly work in that kind of system?

[ktgrok]

God isn't magic. And the world has evil/bad things in it due to many reasons, some I understand, like free will, others I don't. If I could understand God it wouldn't be God. 

 

My best "reasons" for belief are in Mere Christianity...the whole first section. 

[PrincessMommy]

I haven't read all the responses... and I wrote out a very long one myself -   But the internet ate it.   :cursing:   You'll just have to believe me when I say it was a masterpiece  :lol:

 

but seriously - short form:  I think some people attribute things to God that skirt breaking the 3rd Commandment.   But, I also think that some people seem to have much more faith than I do.  I just don't seem to see God in everything or every movement.  I'm more skeptical and a realist.   I also think that sometimes Faith is a gift given.  Not that it is a constant level but maybe for a certain thing. 

 

I cannot answer your other question about why Jesus didn't reveal more to us when He was here.  

[creekland]

But in terms of giving us visible results we could point to and say - those are God's people - how could that possibly work in that kind of system?

 

FWIW, the NT says they will know we are Christians by the love we show for each other.  

 

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2013:35

 

John 13:35English Standard Version (ESV)

35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.â€

 

There are stories of God showing His might via answered prayer and that causing many to consider their ways, but those are the news stories.  It's nice when they happen, but even in the Bible they weren't what always happened.  Even in the OT, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego didn't "expect" a miracle.  They said it could happen, but if not, it did not affect their faith.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Daniel%203

6 Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego answered and said to the king, “O Nebuchadnezzar, we have no need to answer you in this matter. 17 If this be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of your hand, O king.[d] 18 But if not, be it known to you, O king, that we will not serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up.â€

 

In the same way, I will pray for things knowing God can and might answer my prayers the way I would like, but it doesn't affect my faith if it doesn't happen.  My faith is not built upon answered prayer.  It's built upon my belief in The Creator.

[hornblower]

I am an atheist. I think this is all just trying to make ourselves feel better at a crappy time or wishing for a community. 

I think it's wishing it was true because some things might be nice about it. But it's just not. 

Your questions are logical and reasonable and I'd guess you know the answer. 

 

[TracyP]

I used to be a dedicated Christian. I always saw signs of God working in my life. Then I had a few incidents that changed all that. Long story short, the places that I was so sure God had been working led my family down incredibly scary paths. Imagine that you are struggling to make ends meet, not sure how you are going to feed the family, when a neighbor offers you a bunch of beef that he bought but wouldn't fit in his freezer. You are so thankful!! God has come through for you!! Then you eat it and your entire family gets food poisoning and one of your children dies. NOTE: THIS DID NOT HAPPEN TO ME. But I found myself watching several "blessings" in my life turn to "curses" and while that example is made up, I'm not exaggerating the scale. It turned my views on God's intervention and the power of prayer upside down.

 

In talking to other Christians, I realized that many (most?) have never had God "revealed" to them. Many don't believe their prayers do anything more than offer themselves hope. And yes, I suppose you could call that lying to yourself... My point is, some Christians hold on to this fairy tale idea that God will always keep everyone you love safe, or that you will never be given more than you can handle. Many, many other Christians are more pragmatic. They understand that at the end of the day there is no Vending Machine God (to steal Creekland's phrase), but it doesn't shake their belief that there is a God.

 

I now am a cultural Christian who wavers between agnostic or deist depending on the day.The situation from above is not the main reason for my change in beliefs (that was thanks to an in-depth Bible study/search for Truth). I'm only posting because I don't think the first questions you listed are ones that should stop someone from being Christian if that is what you are drawn toward.

 

I think your question about Jesus raises a good point. I'd even take it one step further and ask why God didn't do those things. This, however, gets into the reasons why I lost my faith, so I won't go there.

[scholastica]

Your questions are common for our time. This is one resource that is attempting to answer those questions. https://www.magiscenter.com . 

 

I want to just flip one of your statements on its head. You said you felt like you would attribute every tingly feeling to God. What if those tingly feelings were of God? What if He put those there to show you He loves you and right now you don't recognize it for what it is. I'm not saying that all tingly feelings come from God. I'm also not saying faith should be based on feelings. In fact, if that's what I based my faith on, I wouldn't have any. But right now, you've decided from what you believe the tingly feelings come and maybe that goes for many other views as well. 

[chiguirre]

I am not asking these questions as a "Gotcha!" I'm really struggling because I feel like without something...more...to go on, if I were to become religious, I'd just be lying to myself. I'd chalk up every tingly feeling as a divine presence, and every stroke of luck as confirmation that God was interceding on my behalf. But really I'd know that I was just faking it because reality was too hard to bear. I don't know how to get past these doubts.

You might do better with a religion that's not monotheist. It probably won't give you the sense of community (and social cover if you live in certain areas) but it might make bearing reality easier. I find Marcus Aurelius and Daoist reflections written for a Western audience very comforting but there are lots of other options out there. If you do need a sense of community (or social cover, BTDT) you could go with whatever religion you're familiar with and just focus on the parts that do speak to you. That's easier in some denominations than others, it's been easy for me to attend Catholic masses without being a Christian. I almost always find something useful to think about in the readings and the music is awesome (NB: Trinqueta sings in the choir so I'm not an unbiased observer.)

[SparklyUnicorn]

I'm an atheist, and I don't wonder about these things.  To do so is to entertain the idea of a deity existing.  I have no reason to believe one does.  There is no bone in my body that sees that as logical or possible.

 

So to me, any answer you get about this, is one where people just massage the details to make sense.  None of it makes sense.  But the point of it is "faith" at the end of the day.  Faith in something that cannot be proven and cannot be fully understood.  And apparently that's the point and the ultimate explanation (don't look behind the curtain).  So the fact one cannot really question it (without it unraveling) makes it suspect in my mind.  There is no answer to any of these questions that ever made me doubt my thoughts on it. 

 

I do believe I understand the allure of it.  I definitely wonder about stuff like why am I here and what is my purpose and will I always be here in some form or will I ever be somewhere else in some other form.  Religion doesn't satisfactorily answer that for me. 

 

 

 

 

[bethben]

Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis is a good book that explains quite a bit with well thought out reasoning.

[sheryl]

Wow, this is good!  The "very fact" that you are asking and seeking is good! 

 

I was raised in a Christian family.  It was never an issue for me. I never questioned....have always believed as I'll always do.  Why?  I don't "need" evidence.  Truly, a lot of people get caught up in wanting/needing evidence.  But, God makes it clear in His word that we believe as an act of faith.  Read Hebrews 11.  Read books by Gary Habermas.  I just sat in on on one of his classes at an Apologetics Conference last month.   And, Lee Strobel put God on trial, so to speak.  Read his book. 

 

God sends rain on the righteous and unrighteous.  In other words, He bestows "blessings" on all people.  Conversely, He "corrects" us. Why?  Not as an anger father but as a GOOD, HEAVENLY FATHER who chastises those whom He loves.   If one of your kids committed a crime or bad deed, would you let it go?  Of course it would depend on the offense and age of child, but you would more than likely talk to him/her.  If a child went to a neighbor's house and broke a car window more than likely you will administer some type of consequence or restriction.  It's not b/c your a bad parent but that restriction is to help bring "reasoning" back to that person. 

 

My Mom was hospitalized the last half of 1988.  I prayed and prayed for her to be healed.  I even hand-wrote Bible verses on notebook paper, cut them out and taped them to her room.  She passed away Nov. 1988 (last week was 29 years).  I love/d her so much.  I miss her.  I was sad, angry, etc.  But, I didn't doubt God's existence.

 

There was another difficult time in the early 90's and I was so angry and upset that, even as a "Believer", I got angry at God!  I look back at it now in a different light.  But then, I rose my voice to Him and had quite the conversation.  I did NOT turn my back on Him and He did NOT disown me as His child.  He allowed my temper-tantrum (because we're human and immature).  He will take what was originally meant for bad and use for good. 

 

There are references in the Bible about people "needing" evidence but we are to have faith.   Sometimes I take a simplistic approach - WHO on earth could hold the planets in the sky like ornaments on a tree?  It's NOT nature.  God speaks and it is so - read Genesis' Creation account. 

 

I don't know if any of this helps.  Just please do yourself a favor and do NOT get caught up on needing evidence.   If you'd like to attend the annual apologetics conference next Oct. please pm and we'll discuss it.  It's only 2 miles from my house!  This is where you learn a lot.

 

Also, if you "do" decide to trust in our Lord as an act of faith and you research church doctrines, etc. don't get caught up on the "minors".   There are "essential" salvation issues which should not change, such as: believing Jesus Christ is the Promised Messiah, Jesus shed blood on the cross, He rose from the grave; and there are non-essentials such as: should women wear pants/slacks or something like that.  Be mindful of the essentials!  Women wearing slacks or cutting hair is not a "salvation issue".

 

eta: the heart-wrenching episode resulted in me being angry was wrong and I did seek God's forgiveness (I was in error).  Of course, He forgave me.  What did I learn?  God is God and I need not be angry with Him.  He is perfect and I am not.  He doesn't/can't make mistakes. 

 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2017 by sheryl

[Scarlett]

I think my view of God tends to be rather different than what is common.  I solidified my beliefs in "a" creator due to science - looking at all I studied while in college - and knowing there was literally no way it could all have happened by chance - not the Universe, Solar System, Earth, Plants, or Life of any sort.  When it comes down to it, there are only two options for this.  Chance or Eternal Creator who is far larger than any of it.  I respect those who choose either option, but for me, it can't be chance.

 

So, with my foundation set, I started to look to see "what" creator.  I made the assumption that it would have been one of the larger ones - that no creator would want to remain hidden or believed by just a small group of people.  I studied what the main religions believe.  I settled on Christianity as being the most plausible, BUT with the knowledge that those teaching us about Christianity are still men with human failings.  I read the Bible.  I believe the Bible.  But I'm not necessarily among those who believe that all the interpretations about the Bible are accurate - esp when some of the mainstream dogmas go rather against what is written if one actually reads the text in more than one spot.

 

Why does God not reveal himself more?  My thoughts are that He does not want a vending machine set of followers.  If Christians (or whatever faith) were always rich, healed, or whatever, is one following God due to appreciation and love - or for materialistic reasons - to get what we want?

 

Why pray?  I think God commands that to keep our minds focused on "life," - how ours can change in a snap moment - how we need each other - keeping compassion for one another - or even celebrating with one another when there is praise.  It keeps community.  I don't believe the Prosperity Gospel (The Vending Machine Gospel - insert x prayer or x amount of money and get what you wish for).  When I read the Bible I don't see that happening either.  I see plenty of folks dying and suffering, even though they were prayed for and lived a Christian life.  It's not the main thing the stories are written about (it's in the background of the stories), but "news" today doesn't focus on the "normal" either.  It focuses on the abnormal.  Humans are humans.

 

I don't give credit to God for the bad or good in my life.  I thank Him for the good and ask for assistance with the bad, but I know I'm nothing special and did nothing special to get either.  If there were a disaster and I lived, I'd be thankful, but not assume I was special while the person next to me who died was not.  I would mainly assume that God has more He wants me to do while I'm here on earth.  Then I'd ask Him for assistance to deal with Survivor's Guilt!

 

There are things I wish the Creator had set up differently in this world - esp the unfairness of the birth lottery - but I'm not Grand Pumba, so I just get to do the best I can to try to right wrongs.  I think that's what we're expected to do.  I think that's our purpose in life - that and treating absolutely everyone, rich, poor, and in between, as equal humans.  I have little respect for those who claim faith, but in reality their life is all about getting whatever they can while walking all over those less fortunate than themselves.  I'm not sure God is impressed with their "faith" either, but I'm only judging for myself.  I'll let Him judge for himself.  My thoughts come from this parable (if curious):

 

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25:31-46

 

That's me.  No judgment at all on those who come to different conclusions looking at the same evidence.  My faith is between God and me.  But I still love "you" (generic you) even if we disagree - and I'd do my best to help you out in life the same way I would do it for someone who shared my faith.

 

I am 100% certain in what I believe (cultivated it over years of study), so there's no bother for me in listening to others who differ.  I don't debate though - not my jollies.  I just share when folks ask.

 

 

Your bolded above reflects my thoughts too.  

 

Beyond that I have beliefs that are different from mainstream Christianity.  Mostly along the line of how the way the world runs now is not how it was intended to be and not how it will continue.  That God intended us to live as perfect humans in a paradise earth forever.  Under His rule---not man's rule.  So we are at a place in the stream of time working toward a different way of things being. And I have faith it will take place.

[gardenmom5]

Can we talk about this while remaining civil?

 

Bertrand Russell was once asked what he'd say if he died an atheist and met God in the afterlife. He replied, "Not enough evidence, God! Not enough evidence!" I feel like I'm in the same boat.

 

Why do you think it is that God doesn't reveal himself to people who are seeking him?

 

How do you deal with the fact that God seems to be a deity of coincidences--he heals Christians and non-Christians at the same rate, what is often attributed to God's work is often in conjunction with medical science ("God healed her cancer!" when she was taking chemo, for example). If someone loses a leg and prays for God's healing, it's not like God regrows the limb.

 

Why didn't Jesus drop some science on his audience that could later confirm he divine knowledge of how things work? Like if he explained germ theory or at least emphasized the importance of washing one's hands, he could have saved billions of lives on top of making a case for his divinity. Or he could have talked about the planets or something.

 

I am not asking these questions as a "Gotcha!" I'm really struggling because I feel like without something...more...to go on, if I were to become religious, I'd just be lying to myself. I'd chalk up every tingly feeling as a divine presence, and every stroke of luck as confirmation that God was interceding on my behalf. But really I'd know that I was just faking it because reality was too hard to bear. I don't know how to get past these doubts.

 

please define 'reveal'. if you mean showing physically, or something else dramatic and irrefutable - then there would be no need for "faith".  Faith is the point.

 

the scriptures are replete with examples of God blessing both believers and non-believers.   

 

so -germ theory on a group of people who had no clue about the existence things smaller than they can see. kinda advanced for the group.  but there were ritual washings referred to in the OT, and other instructions that if followed, do help prevent the spread of germs  among people who had no clue what they were.

 

I have experienced things some would claim were just coincidence.  I've also experienced things that there is no other explanation, except divine intervention that can (but not always) follows faith.

[Bluegoat]

This issue of why Jesus didn't say more - it isn't necessarily the case that he didn't.  We don't know most of the things he said directly to his followers, the apostles in particular.  If you assume the account of the resurrection is true, there are about 40 days that he was around after that, and we know very little of what he said to them, though it's generally believed that he was in fact teaching them.

 

Most of what we know then is what people thought important enough to write down, and important enough to talk about.  Whatever else was said would presumably have been very meaningful to the people who heard it directly, but when you hear it from someone else, or read it years later?  

 

I wonder if it would really be anything different than what was, in fact, written down, in terms of how much it revealed?  

[Pam in CT]

FWIW, not all faith traditions lean in to "belief" or even "theism" the way (some forms of) Christianity does... and if you are by disposition thrown by the tension between "evidence" and "belief" you might enjoy delving into either non-theistic traditions like Buddhism, or other traditions that give greater weight to deed vs creed.  

 

There is much in your question, and Monica's whole response, and creekland's vending machine analogy, that I need more time to mull over... but I wanted to respond to this discrete bit:

 

... I do struggle with prayer and what exactly it does/doesn't do.  I struggle with this so much, in fact, that I cannot bring myself to ask for concrete things.  I tend to pray for things like "courage" or "strength" to deal, rather than a miraculous cure.  I will make exceptions to this for very small children out of desperation for miracles.  My skepticism really stands in my way of having a more spiritual life.  ...

 

 

I am myself pretty deeply attached -- not as an aside by "belief" -- to Judaism.  I have a pretty good, pretty longtime friend who's a nun.  She lives in a convent "in community" with (obviously) other nuns.  

 

Over the years, when I've told her about little challenges or problems I or my kids or other family members were experiencing, she would tell me she would pray for us.  Well, that's lovely.  Certainly I appreciated the sentiment, but I didn't really register it any differently than when other, secular friends expressed equally kind sentiments like "you're in my thoughts."

 

About a year ago, I was at her convent for some visit or event, and she showed me the room and explained to me the mechanics of her weekly prayer circle.  I'm not sure I'll recall all of the bits exactly right, but something like --

 

the larger community is divided into "circles" of about 12 women each, and they each have a set time for circle (hers is 7:30 on Thursday nights).  The same group meets together for years, so they know one another -- and one another's prayers -- intimately.  Each Thursday, they gather in this cozy room and draw the chairs (a lot of them are old, so, wheelchairs) into a circle.  There's a small table in the center, and they light a candle.  

 

It's not liturgical; there are other places in the week for that.  They open with a blessing; then they have silence (very Quaker!) for ~10 minutes.  Then they go around the circle, and each nun gives the name, and in most cases the circumstances, of the people on her "list.

 

("I keep my list on my phone," Sr. Leonora then gushed.  "I used to have a little notebook, but it's so much better on the phone, because I used to have to keep re-copying the list with changes.  Now I can just edit right on my phone, and it's always with me.  Look, here's your father."  And she whipped out her phone, and sure enough, there towards the middle of a rather long list was the name of my father, then recently diagnosed with bladder cancer.

 

I stopped breathing.)

 

Then they have silence again, praying.  Not -- this was another, different long conversation with Sr L on a different day -- for vending machine outcomes, but for abstract-yet-practical nouns like "hope" and "resilience" and "courage" and "peace" and "strength.

 

___

 

Something about seeing that room and candle, hearing the details of the ritual, seeing my father's name on that phone, *changed* how I received the language of "prayer."  

 

Wherever I was, whatever I was doing at the moment, I began to feel Thursday nights at 7:30 -- I became conscious of *that* moment every week, as surely as I feel nightfall on Friday sabbath.

 

Sr L and the others are circling up.  They are lighting that candle.  They are silent.  They are speaking.  She is naming my father.  They are holding him.  They are holding *me.*

 

Here's the thing -- visualizing those women, with their steely hair and practical shoes, in that room, with that candle, opening up their Moleskins and smartphones and little spiral notebooks to read off their names -- gave me courage.  Gave me a jolt of strength, every Thursday, 7:30 pm.

 

I told my father, agnostic for life, bones crumbling.  He smiled and nodded.

 

____

 

When my father went into kidney failure, I sent Sr L a note, explaining the circumstances and asking her to add my mother's name to her Thursday night list.  She called me back within minutes.  She was at the airport, on her way to Liberia, to serve as an election observer, another long story.  "But I've forwarded your email to Sr J," she said.  "She'll say your names and explain about your father.  The sisters in the circle all know all of your family already, of course."

 

Of course.  Breathe.

 

That's how prayer works.

Edited November 15, 2017 by Pam in CT

[8circles]

Pam, that made me cry. That's beautiful.

[eternalsummer]

...

 

So, with my foundation set, I started to look to see "what" creator.  I made the assumption that it would have been one of the larger ones - that no creator would want to remain hidden or believed by just a small group of people.  I studied what the main religions believe.  I settled on Christianity as being the most plausible, BUT with the knowledge that those teaching us about Christianity are still men with human failings.  I read the Bible.  I believe the Bible.  But I'm not necessarily among those who believe that all the interpretations about the Bible are accurate - esp when some of the mainstream dogmas go rather against what is written if one actually reads the text in more than one spot.

...

 

 

The bolded is interesting - do you think, over time, that there have been more Judeo/Christian/Muslim than not?  It might be pretty close, but I don't know that much more than half of the population has ever been that, and certainly there was a long time when no one was any of the three (although there also weren't many people then, so hard to say)

[Momto6inIN]

Bluegoat and Creekland express what I think better than I can, so I'll just add a little bit about my thoughts on prayer.

 

I've been taught and I've experienced that the true purpose of prayer is not to get God to change His mind about something. He already knows what you will ask and what the deepest desires of your heart are and He already knows what His response will be. We are not/should not be really asking Him to change earthly circumstances according to what we perceive as best. Rather, the purpose of prayer is to commune with God, share our heart with Him, and ask Him to change *us* and our desires to confirm to His will. So prayer does change things, absolutely it does. Miracles do happen and God does hear our prayers and sometimes our prayers are in accordance with His will and isn't it amazing when that happens! But mostly prayer changes us, not our circumstances.

 

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk

[eternalsummer]

Can we talk about this while remaining civil?

 

Bertrand Russell was once asked what he'd say if he died an atheist and met God in the afterlife. He replied, "Not enough evidence, God! Not enough evidence!" I feel like I'm in the same boat.

 

Why do you think it is that God doesn't reveal himself to people who are seeking him?

 

How do you deal with the fact that God seems to be a deity of coincidences--he heals Christians and non-Christians at the same rate, what is often attributed to God's work is often in conjunction with medical science ("God healed her cancer!" when she was taking chemo, for example). If someone loses a leg and prays for God's healing, it's not like God regrows the limb.

 

Why didn't Jesus drop some science on his audience that could later confirm he divine knowledge of how things work? Like if he explained germ theory or at least emphasized the importance of washing one's hands, he could have saved billions of lives on top of making a case for his divinity. Or he could have talked about the planets or something.

 

I am not asking these questions as a "Gotcha!" I'm really struggling because I feel like without something...more...to go on, if I were to become religious, I'd just be lying to myself. I'd chalk up every tingly feeling as a divine presence, and every stroke of luck as confirmation that God was interceding on my behalf. But really I'd know that I was just faking it because reality was too hard to bear. I don't know how to get past these doubts.

 

 

I'm not Christian, or even religious, but I'm also not an atheist, so I can offer a perspective from the gap, maybe.

 

I think there are different times in life when we're ready to understand (or accept revelation) of different things.  So even though you might feel like you're looking for God, or an understanding of spirituality or the meaning of the universe or something, you might just not be able to understand or accept it in your current state - so for you, the world looks godless because what God is showing to you as god, you don't perceive as god right now.

 

I think many religious people would probably say that healing that comes through medical science is still coming from god, just through the medium of medicine.  Other than that I am not sure what you mean by a deity of coincidences.

 

As far as Jesus not proving he was omnipotent by leaving tomorrow's lottery numbers for us to confirm, I can't really tell you.  I would say that for me, Jesus or the idea of Jesus wasn't about proving to people 2000 years afterward that he was divine, but about changing the social and religious order of his time.

[eternalsummer]

I also find Taoism (well, I don't know about the religious ritual part of it, but certainly the Tao Te Ching) a way to access spirituality and the idea of god without necessarily having to reconcile the ideas and realities of more literal, concrete religions. 

 

In fact, the first verse goes:

Tao called Tao is not Tao.  Names can name no lasting name.

Nameless: the origin of heaven and earth. Naming: the mother of ten thousand things.

Empty of desire, perceive mystery. Filled with desire, perceive manifestations. These have the same source, but different names.

Call them both deep - Deep and again deep: the gateway to all mystery.

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I also find Taoism (well, I don't know about the religious ritual part of it, but certainly the Tao Te Ching) a way to access spirituality and the idea of god without necessarily having to reconcile the ideas and realities of more literal, concrete religions. 

 

In fact, the first verse goes:

Tao called Tao is not Tao.  Names can name no lasting name.

Nameless: the origin of heaven and earth. Naming: the mother of ten thousand things.

Empty of desire, perceive mystery. Filled with desire, perceive manifestations. These have the same source, but different names.

Call them both deep - Deep and again deep: the gateway to all mystery.

 

I read some into Tao and Buddhism.  In true human fashion though, stuff gets twisted to sound a lot like the other organized religions.  So that didn't satisfy me either.

[Junie]

OP, Have you read the Bible?  (I'm asking, not being snarky.)  The Bible is His way of communicating to people across many generations.  I would encourage you to read it.  

[eternalsummer]

Yes, the religious part of it I think is largely (imo) like much of the rest of religion - cultural practice.

 

eta: I like "Names can name no lasting name" especially because it reminded me of the (some name I can't remember) Uncertainty Principle, where the act of observation changes the thing you're observing - so you can never get it exactly 100% correct, separate of yourself - you're always a part of the universe you're observing and the act of observing it, or naming it, limits it in a way that makes it not-whole, or not-perfect, I guess.

Edited November 15, 2017 by eternalsummer

[nixpix5]

Well as someone who grew up an atheist and spent my most of my life as one, took science and math as far as I could go in college for a doctorate and then converted, I can say I had the opposite feeling as you. I had an epiphany, everything clicked into place for me. When the bible speaks of essentially having blinders and not being able to truly see that resonates with me because as an atheist who drank the science Kool aid, I couldn't see it at all. Then I had my matrix moment took the green pill and will never be able to go back. Never ever. I still believe whole heartedly in the pusuit of science and think the bible does illustrate it perfectly. People in that day couldn't understand germ theory. Where would one start to explain that one piece? It wouldn't resonate with people and they wouldn't have been able to hear God. The bible is timeless and makes the assumption, I feel, that with enough science we will get the references. Being made from dirt for example? As an atheist I laughed at that but as a scientist I get we are all made of the same elements, we are carbon based life forms and share composition with everything around us. God creating day and night on day one and no sun until the 4th day? Oh yeah, I did the mega eye roll. Until I learned quantum physics and that everything is made of light energy and then it dawned on me...with enough full understanding all of those wonky references will make sense. I believe that completely. I could go on about the correlations I have found reading through the bible and how following what God wants for us has made my life really great. So even if at the end there is no God (I don't believe that but let's say) I am so grateful for the bible and my faith because I have a strong marriage, 5 amazing kids, have overcome all of the hardship I had as an atheist so it has been worth it to me.

 

I still believe in all elements of science and am an old earth creationist. I love the rigor of science and how much we can do with our human brains. We were created in God's image and he is a creator and so are we. Yet much like a dog cannot comprehend algebra even though algebra exists, I believe there is an upper limitation to our own understanding. We are linear beings. We think in a timeline and see time as a before and after. We can not see the future so are putting together a 6 billion piece puzzle while having 5000 pieces and saying we know what it is. We are arrogant as a species.

 

For example, we base everything on reductionism in science and yet quantum physics has done a lot to challenge some of our beliefs we hold as facts. Just the idea that there are particles that are controlled by our thought to whether or not it is a wave or a particle and it is always true, is astounding. That right there could lend credence to the idea of prayer.

 

However, I do not believe prayer changes outcomes. I don't at all. I think prayer is for God. I think it is a way to show God our faith in him and reaffirming it is his ultimate will that we will have faith in as his plan is better than our plan because 1. We don't know the future and 2. It isn't all about us.

 

For a an atheist, if this is the best it will ever be and for a Christian, this is the worst it will ever be then why is death bad for a Christian? Why wouldn't we want to celebrate someone being someplace better. Atheists see death as tragic, so it is hard to wrap their head around why God might make a choice to allow someone to die. An earthly death can change others. Someone dying can cause a push for new policies, peace, restlessness for something better. We don't see the big picture. Being a Christian causes a whole new way of seeing yourself in the world.

 

Now sin effects everyone. Christians are not free of sin so there are plenty of examples of "Godly" people who do horrific things. As an atheist I relished in it because it proved my point about corrupt religious people. After being part of a Christian community I now know that is one more way evilness keeps people from knowing God. My community is the best group of people I know.

 

None of this is either here nor there, because I would need someone sitting in front of me to explain my epiphany and all of my thoughts as there are so many. A message on a board can not make it clear and I probably sound crazy ;)

[Hannah]

Of course.  Breathe.

 

That's how prayer works.

 

That was beautiful.  Thank you Pam.

[Guest]

Pam, that made me cry. That's beautiful.

Me, too!

[Joyofsixreboot]

For me, God isn't miracles and blessings and what do I get out of it. God is love. The love I give others, concrete help, feeding the hungry, and he's in fellowship. The circle of people I love that love me back and the many ways that makes life endurable. God is love. A great wave of energy and love we spring from and return to. I don't appear to fit well into a Christian box but it's the one I check. I don't feel like I need evidence. It's not prove or disprove it's do and care.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[shinyhappypeople]

Youtube has been enormously helpful in my spiritual journey.  I especially like debates, when I'm first exploring an idea. 

 

I found listening to Ravi Zacharias very helpful.  He's kind, gracious, and very, very smart. 

 

You might also like John Lennox (he doesn't have a youtube channel, but just do a search for him). Faith Has Its Reasons is on my "watch later" list.  It's probably really good and full of good things to think about, because most talks by him are.  But, I can't officially recommend it, because I haven't heard it yet.

Edited November 15, 2017 by shinyhappypeople

[Lady Florida.]

.

 

I am not asking these questions as a "Gotcha!" I'm really struggling because I feel like without something...more...to go on, if I were to become religious, I'd just be lying to myself. I'd chalk up every tingly feeling as a divine presence, and every stroke of luck as confirmation that God was interceding on my behalf. But really I'd know that I was just faking it because reality was too hard to bear. I don't know how to get past these doubts.

 

I'm an atheist so not who you directed your questions to. However, and forgive me for answering your question with a question, why do you feel the need to become religious? I don't think those who are religious think they're lying to themselves but as an atheist I don't feel the need to even try and believe. I'm just curious why you do (that is if you do - maybe I misread the quoted part of your post).

[Lady Florida.]

For a an atheist, if this is the best it will ever be and for a Christian, this is the worst it will ever be then why is death bad for a Christian? Why wouldn't we want to celebrate someone being someplace better. Atheists see death as tragic, so it is hard to wrap their head around why God might make a choice to allow someone to die. An earthly death can change others. Someone dying can cause a push for new policies, peace, restlessness for something better. We don't see the big picture. Being a Christian causes a whole new way of seeing yourself in the world.

 

 

 

There is no set of "atheist beliefs". Perhaps some atheists see death as tragic. Perhaps you did when you called yourself an atheist. Not all do. Some, myself included, see death as part of the circle of life. It's sad that you'll miss the person who dies but it isn't tragic. It's natural.

 

If an earthly death really could change others then all these earthly gun deaths of late would be changing some gun rights minds. They'd be pushing for new policies. Some are. Some are not. 

 

Being an atheist who used to believe causes a whole new way of seeing yourself in the world too.

[FloridaLisa]

Can we talk about this while remaining civil?

 

Bertrand Russell was once asked what he'd say if he died an atheist and met God in the afterlife. He replied, "Not enough evidence, God! Not enough evidence!" I feel like I'm in the same boat.

 

Why do you think it is that God doesn't reveal himself to people who are seeking him?

 

I think God does reveal Hiimself. It may not be in the *pillar of cloud, pillar of fire* way we want but God promises to reveal Himself to those who seek. Proverbs 25:2 is a favorite verse. Also, God has revealed Himself in different ways in different ages. Pre-Christ, He spoke through prophets through revelations like the burning bush, through angels, through pre-incarnate appearances and *face to face* as He spoke to Abraham and Moses. (Though it wouldn't have been literally face to face b/c they couldn't see Him in His full glory.) He spoke through the Son, Christ, and continues to speak to us today primarily but not exclusively through the Bible and the Holy Spirit. I do believe God continues to speak in dreams especially to those without access to his written word. 

How do you deal with the fact that God seems to be a deity of coincidences--he heals Christians and non-Christians at the same rate, what is often attributed to God's work is often in conjunction with medical science ("God healed her cancer!" when she was taking chemo, for example). If someone loses a leg and prays for God's healing, it's not like God regrows the limb.

 

My husband died and believe you me, we prayed for mercy. For starters, God's primary purpose with man is not to heal/fix/prosper/make comfortable. His primary purpose is redemption and relationship -- it's just we who get it turned around and make it about us, IMHO. Even in Jesus' 3-year ministry, when he healed enormous numbers of people, not everyone was healed AND it was never about making it all great for those who came to Him. His healings, like the other miracles, were evidences that He was the Son of God.

 

Why He doesn't heal in every situation is never a question of His ability or His sovereignty. Nor is it a matter of whether we prayed hard enough or believe enough. After I read a story about a man in *was healed* in a situation so similar to my husband's I wrote this: 5 Reasons Why God Answered Her Prayer and Not Mine. That piece only starts this conversation. And it's a good one with good questions. 

 

Why didn't Jesus drop some science on his audience that could later confirm he divine knowledge of how things work? Like if he explained germ theory or at least emphasized the importance of washing one's hands, he could have saved billions of lives on top of making a case for his divinity. Or he could have talked about the planets or something.

 

Why didn't he overthrow the corrupt and cruel Roman government? And if He was going to appear to mankind, why as a baby in the sleepy village of Bethlehem? Those around him, even followers, asked these kinds of questions and wanted him to assert his dominion and power. But that wasn't his purpose. Luke 19:10 ; John 12:27; Mark 10:45 are just a few verses that talk about why Jesus came. 

 

I am not asking these questions as a "Gotcha!" I'm really struggling because I feel like without something...more...to go on, if I were to become religious, I'd just be lying to myself. I'd chalk up every tingly feeling as a divine presence, and every stroke of luck as confirmation that God was interceding on my behalf. But really I'd know that I was just faking it because reality was too hard to bear. I don't know how to get past these doubts.

 

I think it's hard to say sitting outside of a belief in God what it would be like to believe in God of the Bible. The bigger question is who is Jesus? Is he who he says he is or not? My favorite book -- if I could only pick one -- is John and that's where I started when I had questions years ago. 

 

[livetoread]

I’m with Lady Florida. Why do you feel like you should get past the doubts? Take it from one who knows, it can be an exercise in frustration, lol.

 

I was a Christian all my life. Raised conservative, became liberal, then very liberal, then spiritual, then nothing. I used to have the answers to your questions, and they used to make sense to me. The more I questioned though, the more I doubted, and asking for faith fell on deaf ears (nonexistent ears, most likely).

 

Trying to hang onto faith as it is slipping through your fingers is very scary because you expect the worst, and because it is always viewed as your fault, not God’s. No one believes that God is actually silent when someone is trying to believe but can’t. There’s the whole “hound of heavenâ€, “searching for lost sheepâ€, “just ask for faith†belief, and when reality told me something different - that if there is a deity, it was indifferent to whether I believed in it or not - it was easy to blame myself and keep trying. Everyone has advice, but none of it worked, and this deity who is supposed to love everyone and help those who sincerely try just shrugged.

 

After a long time of trying to square the circle and make myself believe what seemed to come easily to others, I finally gave up and the relief was strong. If there is a deity that cares about me believing, that’s fine, it can help me do that when it deems the time right. Otherwise the doubts are too much and the existence of a loving deity just doesn’t make sense to me. Ultimately the problem of evil and the hiddenness of God make it impossible for me to believe intellectually, while the emotional experience of trying to believe and failing took care of that side. The world is more understandable, and I’m no longer frustrated trying to make things that don’t make sense to me, make sense.

[Lady Florida.]

 

The most parsimonious answer as to why God doesn't reveal himself is that he doesn't exist. 

 

 

 

Yep. There are all kinds of reasons why some might not consider various gods worthy of worship (though we're probably talking about the Judeo-Christian-Muslim god in this thread aren't we?).

 

But a god's existence ultimately comes down to the fact no god has ever shown himself or herself to anyone other than (supposedly) the original prophets of said religion and god belief.

Edited November 15, 2017 by Lady Florida.

[marbel]

Just a few more thoughts...

 

<snip>

How do you deal with the fact that God seems to be a deity of coincidences--he heals Christians and non-Christians at the same rate, what is often attributed to God's work is often in conjunction with medical science ("God healed her cancer!" when she was taking chemo, for example). If someone loses a leg and prays for God's healing, it's not like God regrows the limb.

<snip>

 

Re: healing attributed to God.  There is a saying "God uses means."  In other words, God uses people and their skills, talents, knowledge, education to heal. 

 

The amputated leg won't regrow, but God can give comfort to the person who lost the leg.  And, then may use people to build a prosthetic leg, give physical therapy, etc etc.  

 

And my time here is up.  

[6packofun]

There is no set of "atheist beliefs". Perhaps some atheists see death as tragic. Perhaps you did when you called yourself an atheist. Not all do. Some, myself included, see death as part of the circle of life. It's sad that you'll miss the person who dies but it isn't tragic. It's natural.

 

If an earthly death really could change others then all these earthly gun deaths of late would be changing some gun rights minds. They'd be pushing for new policies. Some are. Some are not. 

 

Being an atheist who used to believe causes a whole new way of seeing yourself in the world too.

 

So sadness about a death is normal, thinking it tragic ("causing or characterized by extreme distress or sorrow"...you know, like the kind you might feel if your child was murdered) is way off.  Are you saying that not being THAT sad about death isn't a result of one's lack of belief in God? The idea that death isn't tragic or a tragedy--I'm assuming these two terms are closely related?--was influenced by something, right? It can't be "facts" because plenty of atheists DO think death is sad or even tragic.  Are you only referring to "natural" death?  Because the atheists I know thought the recent mass shooting deaths were pretty tragic. I don't think "atheist beliefs" means a creed so I understand your wanting to clarify that, but atheism can lead to certain logical conclusions that might be called beliefs.

 

It's always interesting to see how the only God that is feasible for many people (atheist or not) is one who would think and vote as they do and so they reduce the concept of a supernatural being to something that can only be knowable by the intellect and 5 senses.  Our relationships with other human beings aren't limited to the intellect and just the senses so putting those restrictions on God seems bizarre to me.  It's like a category error, which is a logical fallacy.  

 

This is, I think, the simple answer to the OP's first question about why God doesn't give people more evidence.  Simple, but not easily accepted.  He is not just a thing to be known by the intellect. He is a person, with goals and purposes that differ from ours in significant ways.  His highest ethic is love, and yet those who think the problem of evil and/or suffering negates his existence really are saying that they want the complete removal of the human will.  They basically want heaven/utopia NOW with no regard for who God is (holy, among other things) and how those 2 things must coincide and not contradict one another.  If you don't want free will to love other people and Him, then you will never be satisfied.  Because I think God looked at the possible worlds he could create and the one without real love was impossible or even repugnant to him because he IS love.  But at the expense of love is free will used unlovingly. God thought that real love was worth it and I think that many people, yes, even Jews tortured in the holocaust or people suffering anywhere who grasp that concept would agree with him. 

[BarbecueMom]

Are you looking for answers to questions on faith because you are interested in faith, or because you don't fit in socially with groups of self-identifying non-religious folk and are looking for somewhere to belong?

 

If it's the latter... I get it. I do not have an answer, though. If I did I'd have more friends, ha!

[Lady Florida.]

So sadness about a death is normal, thinking it tragic ("causing or characterized by extreme distress or sorrow"...you know, like the kind you might feel if your child was murdered) is way off.  Are you saying that not being THAT sad about death isn't a result of one's lack of belief in God? The idea that death isn't tragic or a tragedy--I'm assuming these two terms are closely related?--was influenced by something, right? It can't be "facts" because plenty of atheists DO think death is sad or even tragic.  Are you only referring to "natural" death?  Because the atheists I know thought the recent mass shooting deaths were pretty tragic. I don't think "atheist beliefs" means a creed so I understand your wanting to clarify that, but atheism can lead to certain logical conclusions that might be called beliefs.

 

 

 

I was responding to a specific post that made it sound (to me anyway) that atheists can't understand why God would let someone die. I was also responding to "atheists believe". Other than a shared lack of belief in deities there is no "atheists believe".

Edited November 15, 2017 by Lady Florida.

[creekland]

The bolded is interesting - do you think, over time, that there have been more Judeo/Christian/Muslim than not?  It might be pretty close, but I don't know that much more than half of the population has ever been that, and certainly there was a long time when no one was any of the three (although there also weren't many people then, so hard to say)

 

FWIW, I didn't just check out those Big Three in my quest.  Even now, they aren't the only major options out there.  ;)

 

I think since creation of humans (whenever that was) that humans have been interested in god.  I think we were created to be that way regardless of which way we finally decide for our beliefs.  I also think God looks at human hearts and how they feel about Him plus how they use their lives to help fellow humans (and take care of His other creation - the planet, etc) more than He looks at any denomination or name.  I fully expect that to those who have been given more (knowledge, finances, whatever) more is expected of them.

 

All that part is my feelings of course, not necessarily right or wrong.  I'll let God judge overall, not me.  It's why I can get along with pretty much everyone from outspoken atheists to pretty darn conservative followers of their beliefs (any religion).  (Exceptions made for terrorists, of course.)  If someone doesn't care to associate with me over beliefs, I lose no sleep.

[Guest]

It's always interesting to see how the only God that is feasible for many people (atheist or not) is one who would think and vote as they do and so they reduce the concept of a supernatural being to something that can only be knowable by the intellect and 5 senses. Our relationships with other human beings aren't limited to the intellect and just the senses so putting those restrictions on God seems bizarre to me. It's like a category error, which is a logical fallacy.

I don’t think it is that, though. I think it is the disconnect many (true for myself) feel between the rhetoric about prayer changing outcomes and then the fact that those outcomes may be anything from awesome to horrifying. In society and in Christian culture and in the Bible itself, we are continuously admonished to pray. God is like a judge, the parable tells us, who relents because he was asked repeatedly. Jesus tells us to ask. Christian faith tradition tells us over and over and over again to ask God to heal our child, to provide a job to an unemployed mate, to pray protection over our children, even to pray for our country and its leaders. When the desirable outcome occurs, it’s “Yay! God answers prayers! Whoopie!†BUT! Then when the outcome is horrible or senseless or preposterously bad, we are supposed to just accept that.

 

For me, this tirning point in accepting that happened when my baby died at birth. An earlier poster to this thread spoke about how something can look like an amazing answer to prayer but then wind up horrible and severe; this is exactly what happened in my situation. There were so many “small miracles†and ways it seemed God protected my daughter in the womb when things looked bleak. But her heart stopped beating only about an hour before she entered the world, an otherwise-perfect, beautiful 9lb 2oz. baby girl.

 

There just is no universe where I can accept something so senseless. It would have been a mercy had she died very early in the pregnancy when that seemed likely. Why carry me along only to take her away anyhow?

 

So, yeah, I do think the only “feasible†God for a lot of people is one who would not save a baby only to let her die. It is not that I thought God owed me a healthy baby. It was that I felt that, if God had anything to do with this at all, it was a horrible cruel joke to play, making it look like He was answering prayers only to say, “Oh, never,ind! Gift recinded!â€

 

I just think there are some things from which perhaps one can never fully heal.