Boy Scouts to open up to girls

[Reefgazer]

Nm - redundant.

We haven't gotten to Boy Scout age with our boys yet, and my DH was not a Scout. However, he is really unimpressed with what he sees around town that passes for an Eagle Scout project. Maybe the park benches and small erosion run off protection on hiking trails are really part of a larger project the kids are doing, but that's all he sees and is disappointed.

We've also interviewed some Eagle Scouts at our business and it was not impressive. You can get this with anything, I know, but we were hoping that having ES on the resume meant something. I just don't know that Eagle Scout means that much any more. I cant imagine there's any great loss to girls not being in BS.

 

 

Edited October 12, 2017 by reefgazer

[abacus2]

This news is shocking to me. My DH is an Eagle Scout, but we have all girls so his idea that he might be a leader was dashed. Now we'll have to investigate this option.

[Spy Car]

A religious organization being a religious organization does not equal it being a hate group. I wish they'd change to incorporate atheists, but wanting to be religious in nature doesn't make them a hate group. Unless we are lumping all religious groups and churches/etc into that category?

 

BSA isn't a religious organization.

 

It is a discriminatory organization that discriminates against people who are not religious, but that doesn't make it a religious organization.

 

And I think the practice is hateful. Hateful and shameful. And not defensible.

 

Bill

Edited October 12, 2017 by Spy Car

[scoutingmom]

Well BSA is ALMOST to the point that Scouts Canada was at 25 years ago. But not quite.

 

Sent from my SM-G903W using Tapatalk

[felicity]

I don't think it is fair to say girl's are measured by what boy's achieve, rather than getting what they want. Although our troop has a leader that is very demanding and challenging (I say this in a good way and with utmost respect for her), from my observations with both BS and GS it seems that the girl's Gold Award does not usually require the same level of independence, leadership skills, and depth that the Eagle requires; it teaches more socially-cooperative skills instead. If the female leadership of GS wants a program that teaches the same set of skills as the Eagle teaches and is as recognized, they need to design a Gold Award as rigorous as the Eagle. It is really on the female leadership to take this on; but it seems that they would rather have the less-rigorous program currently offered. Your ire seems misdirected at boys, rather than on the female leadership where it belongs.

I actually disagree with the characterization of the Gold Award being less rigorous than the Eagle. In my town a kid can put up a bench, attach "drains to the ocean" plaques on street drains, or put up a dog waste bag station and then leave and get his Eagle. The Gold has to be sustainable which requires an added layer of work and planning. We had a girl that wanted to rebuke a chirch's outdoor theater space. She was rejected for that until she found a way to make sure it will be maintained and improved upon in the future. My boys saw that and were amazed and impressed. (My boys are dragging their heels on starting their projects. Grr.) I am too. And my girls are already planning for their higher awards. But the Gold definitely takes at least as much work as a good Eagle project and gets a lot less glory.

[mamakelly]

I have mixed feelings on this decision. As the mother of a Boy Scout, the time he spent with his scout brothers hiking, camping, and learning outdoor skills was invaluable. I feel that the single gender troop was invaluable for my son.

 

However, as the mother of a 15 year old girl who didn’t want to joint Girl Scouts, but really wanted to be a Boy Scout, I’m excited about what this could open up for her. She was thrilled when she was old enough to join Venturing. I only hope that they allow the 11-17 year old program to be single gender troops and don’t require the groups to be mixed.

[felicity]

That's points to a problem with the leader, and hasn't been our experience. But this was a BS decision, not a GS decision, and I still don't see what's in it for them, especially since Venture scouting already exists.

I think in any group of volunteers you'll have thenknes that go the extra mile and the ones that put their time in. And not every group works for every kid. We have over 100 GS troops in my town, from Daisy to Ambassador. We have three troops in my daughter's grade at her school. It kills me to read that GS is full of cheesy badges and only crafts. Sure, out of the 100 troops here, probably some of them glamp and some do only crafts. But some are into robotics and some camp once/month. Most of us are working our butts off to create great programming and interesting activities for all of our girls.

 

Very few of us do the Journeys just as they're written and I can see why a girl would leave if we did. But most of the cheesier-sounding badges have a real purpose. (The only one I truly despise is the Cadette Tree badge. It's just stupid.) I don't love everything about GS but overall it is as worthwhile a program for my girls as Boy Scouts is for my boys. We won't be changing--we already camp plenty with our troops and I feel good about our badges, training, and especially the GS camps around here.

[momacacia]

I actually disagree with the characterization of the Gold Award being less rigorous than the Eagle. In my town a kid can put up a bench, attach "drains to the ocean" plaques on street drains, or put up a dog waste bag station and then leave and get his Eagle. The Gold has to be sustainable which requires an added layer of work and planning. We had a girl that wanted to rebuke a chirch's outdoor theater space. She was rejected for that until she found a way to make sure it will be maintained and improved upon in the future. My boys saw that and were amazed and impressed. (My boys are dragging their heels on starting their projects. Grr.) I am too. And my girls are already planning for their higher awards. But the Gold definitely takes at least as much work as a good Eagle project and gets a lot less glory.

As non-Scouters, but with Eagle projects in our neighborhood and a lot of the hiking areas we use, the projects are really disappointing. What is with all the benches?! Sheesh!

[hopskipjump]

I actually disagree with the characterization of the Gold Award being less rigorous than the Eagle. In my town a kid can put up a bench, attach "drains to the ocean" plaques on street drains, or put up a dog waste bag station and then leave and get his Eagle. The Gold has to be sustainable which requires an added layer of work and planning. We had a girl that wanted to rebuke a chirch's outdoor theater space. She was rejected for that until she found a way to make sure it will be maintained and improved upon in the future. My boys saw that and were amazed and impressed. (My boys are dragging their heels on starting their projects. Grr.) I am too. And my girls are already planning for their higher awards. But the Gold definitely takes at least as much work as a good Eagle project and gets a lot less glory.

:iagree:

Edited October 12, 2017 by hopskipjump

[momacacia]

I'm wondering, is BS just having member number issues? Have they lost a lot of members over the last few yearsand this is a grab for members?

[Carrie12345]

Meh. They still won’t let atheists in. I’ll celebrate them when kids like my son can be members of Boy Scouts. In the meantime, maybe Girl Scouts will open their organization to boys and rhen kids like my son can be a member. We’ll stick with the Girl Scouts who openly welcome my atheist girls.

 

My mom's troop accepts boys.  And boys and girls with various gender expressions.

 

To be honest, I don't know to what degree that's sanctioned, but she's working with a special population and her counsel lets her do pretty much whatever she wants.

[Carrie12345]

The Girl Scouts turned all Troop Beverly Hills years ago, with a flair of American Girl thrown in.  If they had stayed true to their scouting roots, I doubt there would be a crossover more than the Venturing Scouts.

 

That's not how I would describe it, but I do agree that the changes they made suck.

 

I was a Girl Scout from 1st grade (before Daisies existed, which was also controversial, lol) all the way through to my Gold Award (which still doesn't get the respect of Eagle) and led a Brownie troop before I went off to college.  My mother led both my sisters' troops and continues to lead a troop today.  Girl Scouts is a huge part of me.

 

After researching the changes and checking out local troops, I skipped signing up my own daughters.  Broke my heart, but it was nowhere near what I was looking for for them.

[SKL]

As a mom of girls, I have mixed feelings.  I wish they had done this when my kids were little or before.  Now I have one crossing over to Pioneer in AHG and the second a year behind.  It's probably too late for them to switch and still be Eagle Scouts.  But I have always wished they could be Eagle Scouts.  AHG has an award that is theoretically similar, but I don't think it is really recognized outside of AHG.

 

I would like to have my girls do Venturing and AHG together.  If they could get Eagle via Venturing, that would be the best of both worlds.  However, again, it may be too late for them.

[Soror]

I can't imagine what the Boy Scouts hopes to accomplish with this, or why a girl would want to join Boy Scouts when the Girl Scouts are open and accessible; they already have Venture scouting for those who want the coed experience.  It can't be for Eagle because the GS already have a Gold Award, which IMO is far more in-depth than most Eagle projects I've seen approved by our BS council.  Although I will admit that the Gold Award that DD did was approved and guided by her leader, who is extraordinary and an exceptional leader.  It seems most Gold Award aren't that rigorous. 

 

So it's no longer Boy Scouts and they need to change their name.

(1)Venture Scouting doesn't start until the age of 14, there are 7+ yrs of Scouting before then

(2) Regardless of how much work the Gold Award takes vs. the Eagle Rank, the Eagle is more well-known and well-regarded

(3)Many have moral issues with GS (of varying kinds and degrees)

(4) Many prefer the focus, badges, structure, training etc. of BS than that of GS- 

 

 

As a mom of girls, I have mixed feelings.  I wish they had done this when my kids were little or before.  Now I have one crossing over to Pioneer in AHG and the second a year behind.  It's probably too late for them to switch and still be Eagle Scouts.  But I have always wished they could be Eagle Scouts.  AHG has an award that is theoretically similar, but I don't think it is really recognized outside of AHG.

 

I would like to have my girls do Venturing and AHG together.  If they could get Eagle via Venturing, that would be the best of both worlds.  However, again, it may be too late for them.

Boys can't even join cross over to Boy Scouts until half-way through 11y.o./ 5th grade anyway, your oldest is only in 6th and young at that, they have until 18 to achieve Eagle. If a boy really busts hump he can get an Eagle by 13 (that is not necessarily advisable but time wise he can), so your girls certainly have enough time if they so desired.

Edited October 12, 2017 by soror

[DawnM]

This makes me a little sad as well.  My boys really enjoyed being part of something that did have some segregation.  We had a Venture Crew as well and a group for the girls until they reached VC age.  Honestly, my boys felt more comfortable in an all boy group and chose not to join VC because once the girls were added the dynamic was vastly different.  I am all for gender equality, but it is nice to have some separation some as well.

 

Both of my older two got Eagle Scout, and it was a lot of work.  There are so many things my boys can do that I attribute to their training in BoyScouts.  For one thing, my son with Asperger's can rock an interview with multiple adults in a room.  When he was 12, he couldn't even look an adult in the eye or shake hands......now he beat out 17 others for an internship job (ok, well, it was also his skill at the job, but the interviewer specifically mentioned his interviewing skills in the offer email.)

 

And yes, he put Eagle Scout as one of his awards on his resume

[maize]

This makes me a little sad as well. My boys really enjoyed being part of something that did have some segregation. We had a Venture Crew as well and a group for the girls until they reached VC age. Honestly, my boys felt more comfortable in an all boy group and chose not to join VC because once the girls were added the dynamic was vastly different. I am all for gender equality, but it is nice to have some separation some as well.

 

Both of my older two got Eagle Scout, and it was a lot of work. There are so many things my boys can do that I attribute to their training in BoyScouts. For one thing, my son with Asperger's can rock an interview with multiple adults in a room. When he was 12, he couldn't even look an adult in the eye or shake hands......now he beat out 17 others for an internship job (ok, well, it was also his skill at the job, but the interviewer specifically mentioned his interviewing skills in the offer email.)

 

And yes, he put Eagle Scout as one of his awards on his resume

I do not think that single gender units are going away. The new cub program will continue to be segregated, with girl dens and boy dens. Details of the program for older girls isn't available yet but I suspect there will at least be an option of segregated patrols.

 

 

http://www.scoutingnewsroom.org/press-releases/bsa-expands-programs-welcome-girls-cub-scouts-highest-rank-eagle-scout/

Edited October 12, 2017 by maize

[SKL]

Curious - if a person graduates high school & starts college at 17 or younger, do they still have until 18 to complete Eagle?

[SKL]

Also I hope this does not mean they are going to water down Eagle.  Sorry if it sounds sexist, but many people seem to think girls/women can't really do hard stuff.

[HomeAgain]

Only downside is that cookies are easier to sell than popcorn. 

 

I don't know.  GSA shot themselves in the foot here, too, when they licensed their cookie flavors to be sold year round as ice cream, cereal, coffee creamers, etc.  We already could get similar cookies through Keebler.  I never understood the offshoot into grocery stores because it seemed to go against what the cookie sales were for.  So now corporate gets all the proceeds and the individual troops have to compete with corporate? 

[chiguirre]

I wish the troops around here would do stuff like that but they don't.

 

If your troops don't do this, look at the council website and find your Special Interest Group dedicated to backpacking. They do this stuff. In Houston they offer 3 backpacking weekend trips a month plus a couple of week long trips on school breaks and a 10 day trip in the summer. These opportunities aren't advertised widely outside of GSA but there are lots and lots of them and not just backpacking. Trinqueta sails 8 weekends a year and a week in the summer with her SIG and she could do even more if she had more time. The weekends only cost $38 including food and lodging with scholarships available. That's an amazing bargain that makes sailing accessible to many girls who couldn't possibly do this on their own. There's a similar group dedicated to horseback riding. There's a world of opportunities if you know how to access them.

[Bluegoat]

I am not sure I'd go so far as "hate group", but there's a big difference between saying 'We're an organization for people who believe X" and "We're an organization for people with any belief system except X".  

 

I don't know that it's really the reasoning.  Scouting has always had an element around seeing the person as a spiritual being.  That can accommodate a fair number of formal religious or personal philosophies, but probably not one which just doesn't believe that human beings have a spiritual element.

[Sherry in OH]

Curious - if a person graduates high school & starts college at 17 or younger, do they still have until 18 to complete Eagle?

 

Yes, a scout can earn Eagle rank after starting college. Logistics can become issues, however, especially if the scout is not a commuter student.  

[marbel]

After reading all the posts, I'm starting to wonder if GSA doesn't have a PR problem - why is it that Eagle is so well-regarded and the Gold award is not?   And maybe a standardization (not the right word) problem.  At least one person, but I think a few, mentioned taking the "lame" Journeys book and changing things up to make the badges and projects more "rigorous."  I might not have that perfectly right.  The BSA handbook and merit badges have clear requirements and expectations.   

[DawnM]

Curious - if a person graduates high school & starts college at 17 or younger, do they still have until 18 to complete Eagle?

 

Completed paperwork must be turned in by your 18th birthday.  If you are in the process of becoming a medical doctor and are in residency, it doesn't matter, as long as it is before your 18th birthday.

 

The actual Eagle Scout award can be awarded after you turn 18, but you must have everything completed and turned in before your 18th birthday.

 

We have had boys turn it in the day before their birthday, at 4:50pm.  Since we were in a homeschool troop for a long time (when both of my older boys got Eagle), we had many boys doing dual enrollment, or even having graduated already.

[itsheresomewhere]

If your troops don't do this, look at the council website and find your Special Interest Group dedicated to backpacking. They do this stuff. In Houston they offer 3 backpacking weekend trips a month plus a couple of week long trips on school breaks and a 10 day trip in the summer. These opportunities aren't advertised widely outside of GSA but there are lots and lots of them and not just backpacking. Trinqueta sails 8 weekends a year and a week in the summer with her SIG and she could do even more if she had more time. The weekends only cost $38 including food and lodging with scholarships available. That's an amazing bargain that makes sailing accessible to many girls who couldn't possibly do this on their own. There's a similar group dedicated to horseback riding. There's a world of opportunities if you know how to access them.

 

We have none within a reasonable distance. The closet one last year was about 5 hours round trip.

[ktgrok]

That's points to a problem with the leader, and hasn't been our experience.  But this was a BS decision, not a GS decision, and I still don't see what's in it for them, especially since Venture scouting already exists.

 

Venture is only for older kids, and girls couldn't get Eagle. 

 

What's in it for them? Must they profit from it, versus doing something that just makes sense and works for a large number of people? If nothing else, it simplifies things for families with girls and boys that want to do scouting. 

[ktgrok]

BSA isn't a religious organization.

 

It is a discriminatory organization that discriminates against people who are not religious, but that doesn't make it a religious organization.

 

And I think the practice is hateful. Hateful and shameful. And not defensible.

 

Bill

 

So any group that includes a profession of faith is a hate group, because it has a profession of faith? I have zero hate or animosity towards atheists and agnostics. My son is an agnostic at best. All but one of my best friends are agnostic or atheist (most atheist). Partly for that reason, it is nice to sometimes be in a group where belief in God is recognized and encouraged. I LIKE that the promise includes God. Now, I'd also like it if they had an alternate promise for atheist boys, and am glad that locally our troops don't care if you are theistic or not, and wish that extended to official policy. 

 

I think of a hate group as one that exists to spread hate about a group, or to attack them. Diluting that term to mean a group that doesn't include everyone, but doesn't do anything to work against anyone either, is playing fast and loose with the term I think. And I think many of my atheist friends would agree (several of which have kids in scouts)

[ktgrok]

I think that is part of the issue though....both that the girl scout program has to be tweaked so much to really be good anymore, and that there is such a huge variety in how well it can be done. 

 

For better or worse I believe boy scouts were started almost as paramilitary in some ways, and that more rigid structure ensures a more consistent experience across packs/troops. 

 

My daughter's girl scout troop (first year and probably last, at least with this troop) got a badge for gluing popsicle sticks with the words of the girl scout law on them onto a piece of paper. She can't even read the freaking words on it. And the next week  they "earned" their first aid badge by putting a bunch of stuff into a baggy and pinning it to a potholder for a first aid kit. They did also have some paramedics come out and talk about their job and show them an ambulance, and since our paramedics are also firefighters that theoretically covered that part of the badge too. She has no clue what all the stuff in her kit even is. Part of the issue is that the troop leader is disorganized, part is that the requirements are very very passive..all about listening to someone rather than doing anything substantial. 

 

We tried joining other troops first, but they were all closed. And the ones at our church are associated with the school and run as after school clubs, so she'd have been the only girl in the troop that wasn't in the school..not really a good idea. I had hoped this would work out, it's a 40 minute drive each way but for homeschool kids so I had high hopes. We'll see what happens, but so far not impressed. 

I think in any group of volunteers you'll have thenknes that go the extra mile and the ones that put their time in. And not every group works for every kid. We have over 100 GS troops in my town, from Daisy to Ambassador. We have three troops in my daughter's grade at her school. It kills me to read that GS is full of cheesy badges and only crafts. Sure, out of the 100 troops here, probably some of them glamp and some do only crafts. But some are into robotics and some camp once/month. Most of us are working our butts off to create great programming and interesting activities for all of our girls.

Very few of us do the Journeys just as they're written and I can see why a girl would leave if we did. But most of the cheesier-sounding badges have a real purpose. (The only one I truly despise is the Cadette Tree badge. It's just stupid.) I don't love everything about GS but overall it is as worthwhile a program for my girls as Boy Scouts is for my boys. We won't be changing--we already camp plenty with our troops and I feel good about our badges, training, and especially the GS camps around here.

 

[chiguirre]

I wish the troops around here would do stuff like that but they don't.

 

 

We have none within a reasonable distance. The closet one last year was about 5 hours round trip.

 

I don't understand. If you have troops you must have a council. Councils cover huge areas but then they're broken down into Regions and Service Units both of which offer programs to both troops and individual girls. The SIGs operate throughout a Council. The backpacking group has to drive to state parks or national forests and some of those trips are long, but so do BSA troops when they go camping or hiking. I've done the drive for both groups. I have to drive down to Galveston Bay for Trinqueta to sail and that means a 2.5 hour round trip but that's just what it takes to get to the ocean from my house. I don't think there's any way to avoid the drive unless you live in a National Park.

[ktgrok]

I'm wondering, is BS just having member number issues? Have they lost a lot of members over the last few yearsand this is a grab for members?

 

Honestly, parents have been asking them to accept girls for decades now, ti's not like this wasn't something being demanded by the people. It was. 

[Soror]

Dh is on board with starting a new Troop(or whatever they are going to call it) with me when they roll this out. He is very excited that his daughters might get to join Scouting and saying one of his daughters could be the first girl to achieve Eagle in our district. Heck, there is talk his own Troop (the one ds is in that his is Asst. on) will go Co-Ed, the Scoutmaster is actually on board with that.

 

We have a bit of a ruckus in our area in the local Scout community. I honestly can't wrap my brain around it. Everyone is for Venturing, which is co-ed. Everyone is all for girls having the same opportunity in Scouts- I'm a leader in AHG and have been met with BSA people ready and willing to help me get my girls the opportunities that their boys have. BUT give them a path to Eagle and there is an uproar? Let them have their own dens so they can work on the same thing as Tigers and that is a problem? I truly don't get it. This is not a mandate for co-ed Troops/Packs. They can still be same sex. All our facilities have accommodations for boys and girls as we have a ton of female leaders, not to mention the girls in the Venture Crews. 

 

I am plum tickled and have been awaiting this moment!!!

[chiguirre]

I think that is part of the issue though....both that the girl scout program has to be tweaked so much to really be good anymore, and that there is such a huge variety in how well it can be done. 

 

For better or worse I believe boy scouts were started almost as paramilitary in some ways, and that more rigid structure ensures a more consistent experience across packs/troops. 

 

My daughter's girl scout troop (first year and probably last, at least with this troop) got a badge for gluing popsicle sticks with the words of the girl scout law on them onto a piece of paper. She can't even read the freaking words on it. And the next week  they "earned" their first aid badge by putting a bunch of stuff into a baggy and pinning it to a potholder for a first aid kit. They did also have some paramedics come out and talk about their job and show them an ambulance, and since our paramedics are also firefighters that theoretically covered that part of the badge too. She has no clue what all the stuff in her kit even is. Part of the issue is that the troop leader is disorganized, part is that the requirements are very very passive..all about listening to someone rather than doing anything substantial. 

 

We tried joining other troops first, but they were all closed. And the ones at our church are associated with the school and run as after school clubs, so she'd have been the only girl in the troop that wasn't in the school..not really a good idea. I had hoped this would work out, it's a 40 minute drive each way but for homeschool kids so I had high hopes. We'll see what happens, but so far not impressed. 

 

I think you're comparing Daisies to older boy scouts. Let's just say that those projects aren't that different than Tiger den activities. I fondly remember our cub scout den's visit to our local fire station and our glue popsicle sticks together projects too. It's more age related than rigor related. If you want your dd to do more outdoor activities at this age, check out the GSA summer camps. They actually offer more outdoor experiences than cub scouts do until the boys are ready for a boy scout troop. 

[Dmmetler]

I can't imagine what the Boy Scouts hopes to accomplish with this, or why a girl would want to join Boy Scouts when the Girl Scouts are open and accessible; they already have Venture scouting for those who want the coed experience. It can't be for Eagle because the GS already have a Gold Award, which IMO is far more in-depth than most Eagle projects I've seen approved by our BS council. Although I will admit that the Gold Award that DD did was approved and guided by her leader, who is extraordinary and an exceptional leader. It seems most Gold Award aren't that rigorous.

 

So it's no longer Boy Scouts and they need to change their name.

The Eagle is also more recognized and simply carries more weight. Two of the colleges DD is looking at have automatic scholarships for the Eagle, but there is no automatic award for the Gold Award or the Stars and Stripes (although there are leadership scholarships that someone who earns Gold or Stars and Stripes probably would be in the running for, at least).

 

It's also hard to find a troop beyond Juniors here. There are a lot more Boy Scout troops with middle and high schoolers than Girl Scout ones, and AHG is usually one or two older girls with a pack of little ones, so you can join, but end up mostly being an assistant for the little girls.

[shawthorne44]

I agree. So sad. The girl scouts are a wonderful organization..

 

 

My personal opinion is that is past tense.   

 

I had been very into girl scouts as a kid.   So much so, that I wanted to be a leader of my daughter's troop to ensure continuity in her troop.  Since I am a planner I looked into it while DD was a tiny baby.   I learned about that petal silliness and how they just talk about how they feel about certain things.  The book for the older girls has more instructions on how to keep a cabin clean than on camping in a tent.  But, I also learned from others that you can run your troop however you want and the organization can't really do anything about it.  Which makes sense, when I was a kid one of my troop leaders stole all our money and the girl scouts said that they couldn't do anything.  

 

So, I bought a used Daisy Guide published in the '70's.   My plan was to start a troop and advertise it as 'old-fashioned'.   About a year before DD was old enough to join, I submitted a request to be a troop leader and I said when I wanted to start one and that I imagined that there was training I had to do ahead of time.   While on the national G.S.A. website I looked around and I read a bio on a new employee they were so proud of.   The bio informed us that she was a lesbian.   Really?  Why did I need to know that?    I forget what her job title was, but it boiled down to Head Naval Gazer.   I thought, Ok, I'll be the troop leader, national doesn't really matter.  A month went by without them contacting me.  I sent them another request through the website.   No response.  TEN months after my initial request someone finally contacted me.  TEN months.  In the meantime, I'd found out that there was an AHG troop and we never looked back.  

 

That said, I don't think this will be a good idea for the girls.   Boy Scout's focus is on working together and being prepared. Something that girls, not boys, tend to do well naturally.    Girl Scout's focus is(was) on just doing it.   Something that boys, not girls tend to do well naturally.   So, yes, girls could shine and be happy in a boy scout troop, but it wouldn't be the best for them.  eta:   On the other hand, it isn't like the current girl scouts encourage the girls to DO stuff.  

Edited October 12, 2017 by shawthorne44

[FaithManor]

I have no idea what it is like nationally. Locally though the GS leaders do not forge ahead like the BSA leaders. The boys are always doing fantastic things meanwhile for the girls it is like they got sent to finishing school in the 1700's. Tea parties, craft kits, etc. no trips, no camping, no life skills, no survival skills, no science, no nothing. I have talked with a lot of moms whose girls are in GS and they do not even know about the gold award. We have colleges here that give scholarships for eagle but not gold, and I suspect it is because the GS programs are not good in this region. While the boys are out doing all kinds of stuff from helping direct traffic at the county fair to camping on Isle Royals National Park where they can only bring what they can carry in their backpack and they rough it on the island, about the only time the GS troops are out and about is cookie time.

 

We chose 4H for the boys. Our state program is huge, tons of opportunities, 4H scholarships etc. and no gender segregation nor religious discrimination.

[Soror]

The Eagle is also more recognized and simply carries more weight. Two of the colleges DD is looking at have automatic scholarships for the Eagle, but there is no automatic award for the Gold Award or the Stars and Stripes (although there are leadership scholarships that someone who earns Gold or Stars and Stripes probably would be in the running for, at least).

 

It's also hard to find a troop beyond Juniors here. There are a lot more Boy Scout troops with middle and high schoolers than Girl Scout ones, and AHG is usually one or two older girls with a pack of little ones, so you can join, but end up mostly being an assistant for the little girls.

Yes, it is hard to keep older ones around. We've been working on growing our older girl group in AHG but the inherent structure of AHG having the whole Troop together is not the best environment for this IMO. The Boy Scouts have serious atrophy from the Cub to BS level BUT they have so many to begin with they still have decent numbers. BS have instant brand recognition too. We did recruitment night, you had people lined up out the door to sign up for BS, you didn't even have to sell it on it, they were ready to sign up and pay registration money right then and there by the dozens. BSA has just been more prominent so as the kids get older and have all these things competiting for their time you can still keep some in BSA, they do cool stuff and parents and kids see value in their kids being in Scouting, GS and AHG just don't have that.

[poppy]

I'm wondering, is BS just having member number issues? Have they lost a lot of members over the last few yearsand this is a grab for members?

 

Yes.  Ever since the vote in 2013 to no longer banish gay children.  Many members left, particularly from the LDS church, which had been (and honestly may still be) the biggest group in Boy Scouts.

[Guest]

We haven't gotten to Boy Scout age with our boys yet, and my DH was not a Scout. However, he is really unimpressed with what he sees around town that passes for an Eagle Scout project. Maybe the park benches and small erosion run off protection on hiking trails are really part of a larger project the kids are doing, but that's all he sees and is disappointed.

 

We've also interviewed some Eagle Scouts at our business and it was not impressive. You can get this with anything, I know, but we were hoping that having ES on the resume meant something. I just don't know that Eagle Scout means that much any more. I cant imagine there's any great loss to girls not being in BS.

 

One thing to remember is that BSA is inclusive.  The adults are charged with making sure the project is challenging and develops the skills to a certain level.  When the Troop has outstanding boys who are doing things like getting in to elite Universities, making states in his varsity sport and music and doing complicated projects he has planned for years, its a lot different than the boy who is not from a  supportive family background and is struggling so hard in school that he is just keeping his chin up and managing to do the bare necessities, and that's different for the special needs cognitively delayed scout but they all meet the standards.

 

  Also, the project needs a customer. The community customers may not want something very complicated, the needs they are trying to fill can be as simple as park benches.  Park benches are a big deal, as they cut health costs by attracting senior citizens who may not otherwise get any exercise. The work involved is just as much as trail work...just different.

 

What my son noticed was that his project was very easy -- but if he had done it at 15 instead of 17, it would have been much more challenging as at 15 he was missing certain skills that were needed.  He learned those skills via his classes and his leadership posts in other ecs at 15 and 16..so, not necessary to Eagle to get those skills...they are available elsewhere in the community if the opportunities are available.  Its just those other opportunities rarely have the coaching and many of them don't have training for the adults.  Even when my lad was captain of his varsity sport, the leadership development wasn't available; same for NHS and tutoring - no training in effecive teaching...he used his scouting background to fill in.  Me, I used my 4H leadership development to help me out in BSA Explorer Scouts...that's what was available.  My son has met other Eagles who have tremendous opportunities in their communities, and Scouts is just a part of the picture of developing the whole person. I am happy the gals can join earlier than 14 now, because our community doesn't have much for them to develop leadership and outdoor skills...dance, music, cheer is it.

 

As far as Eagle and jobs, what are you looking for? 

My son has found it very helpful, employers that look for military backgrounds in their candidates find it very very good -- its a sign that the employee has had some experience in project management, collaboration, leadership and putting mission above self. His post- college job hinged on a particular college class and his Eagle achievement. His leadership training is very very useful even in training -- he knows how to nudge an instructor that does not have the teaching training that BSA provides its youth.

Edited October 12, 2017 by Heigh Ho

[freesia]

One of our problems with Venturing is that it starts at ninth grade.  I was sure that my first dd would join, but by the time she was in ninth grade she had headed in other directions.  But, had she been able to join at 11 she would have at least had the opportunity to give it a try before her time became so precious and she'd already made other extra curricular decisions.

 

I think my youngest dd will love it.

[maize]

Yes. Ever since the vote in 2013 to no longer banish gay children. Many members left, particularly from the LDS church, which had been (and honestly may still be) the biggest group in Boy Scouts.

Source for this data? I am involved with scouting in the LDS church and do not know a single boy or family who has left--it remains a core part of our youth program throughout the US.

 

That US bit is problematic as the church has more membership outside the US than in and never developed a similar relationship with other local scouting programs. An announcement was made earlier this year that the church youth program in the US would no longer involve scouting from ages 14-18, allowing for a more standardized program world wide and for more equity in funding for the boys' and girls' youth programs (boy scouts was eating up a huge share of funds).

 

The current arrangement maintains boy scouts as a key component of church programs for 8-13 year old boys, but I do wonder if this move by the BSA was partly in response to the LDS church withdrawing from supporting units of older boys. That hasn't gone into effect yet but would have to have a serious effect on the number of scouts at that level.

[City Mouse]

LDS announced a while back that they would be creating their own scouting type organization. If this happens, BSA would loose a lot of members. I wonder if that has anything to do with the decision to let in girl?

 

Just like schooling, no one scouting organization is good for every family or every child. I don't think there is anything wrong with offering options.

 

Where I live (rural and low population) it is difficult to get enough kids of either gender to keep decent sized groups, and we have a huge nation Boy Scout presence. Being able to have both genders in one group will help keep the pack/troop more active. Some of our grade levels have less that 10 kids total, so it makes for really small groups when they are divided by gender

[ScoutTN]

I understand the change and ok with it as long as all male units are still possible. I think that single sex education/training has great value that our current society often does not acknowledge. I have seen tremendous impact in my son's life from even just a year and a half in Cub Scouts, and the all male element is a big part of that. 

 

BSA is the best scouting program in the US, imo. I want my son to continue in scouts and I hope this change will not include changes to the program itself. I understand parents who want that quality program for their girls. My daughter is a Pioneer in AHG and will probably not jump ship, but rather add in Venturing to have more time with a group of older kids and the HA activities. Yes, she might be able make Eagle switching over at 13 or 14, but we are invested in our AHG troop and have relationships that are as valuable as the accomplishments. 

 

Seems to me that some things will have to be carefully thought out. Will HA trips like Philmont be run co-ed? Many scout camps will have to spend $$$ to change their restroom facilities, build separate camping areas etc. 

 

It will be interesting to see the net effect of this in a few years, after the dust has settled. Some girls will leave AHG for BSA and some Christian families with boys will head to Trail Life to keep the male-only element. I do think that GS is the weakest program of the ones available and this will hurt them the most. 

[maize]

LDS announced a while back that they would be creating their own scouting type organization. If this happens, BSA would loose a lot of members. I wonder if that has anything to do with the decision to let in girl?

 

 

Correction:

 

The LDS church is not creating a scouting organization. It is dropping scouting as a primary component of its already existing Young Men's program for boys ages 14-18 in favor of an in-house youth program similar to what it has always had for girls at that level. Personally I am hoping that both the boys' and girls' programs will be revamped to draw from the best elements of scouting.

[vonfirmath]

I think it’s more of a threat to AHG than GSUSA.

 

I would hope they don’t merge. I like the Girl Scouts, my girls have a great troop, and again they’ll actually let us in. Dd1 is going to work on her Bronze award this year and doesn’t have to pretend to believe in a god to do it.

 

I agree it is more of a threat to American Heritage Girls. American Heritage Girls seems a lot more like Boy Scouts for girls than Girl Scouts does.  I hear there ARE some Girl Scouts troops that are run a lot like Boy Scouts. That was not my experience in Girl Scouts as a girl nor does it seem to be the majority experiene.

 

Edited October 12, 2017 by vonfirmath

[Ravin]

I'm surprised, because I think of you as a pretty strong advocate against discrimination.  I'm not transgender, but wouldn't let my kid join an organization that discriminates against kids, leaders or family members who are.  Given what I've come to expect when I read your posts, it doesn't seem in keeping with your values to say "Well, I'm not in the group they're discriminating against, so it's all good."

 

Religion is a distinctly different issue from intrinsic characteristics such as race, GLBT, etc. While I would wholeheartedly agree that the government, including public schools, the military, etc., should not discriminate on the basis of religion, BSA is a private organization. I would not consider letting my son join when I would not be allowed to be a volunteer, etc., because it would prevent the family's full participation, and because it would send a message to my kid that it's okay to exclude GLBT people.

 

The requirement for membership in BSA, as I understand it, is a nonsectarian "belief in God." As I'm raising my kids around Heathens, Druids, and Wiccans, etc., I am not raising them without religion--though I have not given DS much direct religious instruction at this point, he has seen me fulfill duty to the Gods on numerous occasions. Since a concept of deity is part of the belief system I want to share with my children, I have no problem with joining an an organization which expects that. 

[maize]

Here is the LDS church's announcement from a few months back:

 

 

https://www.lds.org/church/news/church-replacing-varsity-and-venturing-scouting-with-new-activities-program?lang=eng

[vonfirmath]

Isn't a "program equal to Boy Scouts" called Girl Scouts, and the Eagle equivalent called a Star?

 

I think that it's sad that the Girl Scouts wasn't seen as good enough. That the Boy Scouts were the "real" scouts.

 

I was a Brownie and a Girl Scout, and proud of it. My ds was a Boy Scout, and is an Eagle. I see no reason whatsoever to open the Boy Scouts to girls other than political correctness.

 

No. Girl Scouts is not a program equal to BOy Scouts.

[vonfirmath]

I can't imagine what the Boy Scouts hopes to accomplish with this, or why a girl would want to join Boy Scouts when the Girl Scouts are open and accessible; they already have Venture scouting for those who want the coed experience.  It can't be for Eagle because the GS already have a Gold Award, which IMO is far more in-depth than most Eagle projects I've seen approved by our BS council.  Although I will admit that the Gold Award that DD did was approved and guided by her leader, who is extraordinary and an exceptional leader.  It seems most Gold Award aren't that rigorous. 

 

So it's no longer Boy Scouts and they need to change their name.

 

Last year my daughter went on a family camping trip with my son's Cub Scout troop.

 She LOVED it and wanted to do scouting herself.

 

This year, she joined American heritage Girls and DS will be switching to Trail Life so we can do our scouting together, as a family.

 

IF Boy Scouts had made this change a couple years ago, we might have just folded her into Cub Scouts with him and they wouldn't have lost our family.

 

[ktgrok]

I think you're comparing Daisies to older boy scouts. Let's just say that those projects aren't that different than Tiger den activities. I fondly remember our cub scout den's visit to our local fire station and our glue popsicle sticks together projects too. It's more age related than rigor related. If you want your dd to do more outdoor activities at this age, check out the GSA summer camps. They actually offer more outdoor experiences than cub scouts do until the boys are ready for a boy scout troop. 

 

Actually my only experience with boyscouts is the cub scout level.

[Seasider]

I don't know. GSA shot themselves in the foot here, too, when they licensed their cookie flavors to be sold year round as ice cream, cereal, coffee creamers, etc. We already could get similar cookies through Keebler. I never understood the offshoot into grocery stores because it seemed to go against what the cookie sales were for. So now corporate gets all the proceeds and the individual troops have to compete with corporate?

And they are half the price at Aldi. Why then buy directly from a scout?