Boy Scouts to open up to girls

[poppy]

Meh. They still won’t let atheists in. I’ll celebrate them when kids like my son can be members of Boy Scouts. In the meantime, maybe Girl Scouts will open their organization to boys and rhen kids like my son can be a member. We’ll stick with the Girl Scouts who openly welcome my atheist girls.

 

 

My son is an atheist is a cub scout, we are  UU.  UU has "an understanding" with cub scouts where we can say "the quest for truth" is what we're reverent about  , or some nonsense like that. 

[Daria]

Well, we're not athiests, and in reviewing this I discovered they took away the transgender ban at the beginning of the year, so...time to see if DS wants to join Scouts (and maybe DD too, Girl Scouts was kind of a flop for her thanks to a queen bee troop leader's daughter).

 

I'm surprised, because I think of you as a pretty strong advocate against discrimination.  I'm not transgender, but wouldn't let my kid join an organization that discriminates against kids, leaders or family members who are.  Given what I've come to expect when I read your posts, it doesn't seem in keeping with your values to say "Well, I'm not in the group they're discriminating against, so it's all good."

[Jyhwkmama]

So pre-existing BSA troops will not necessarily be open to girls, correct?

 

We don't know yet because only the cub scout program has been announced so far. In cub scouts, dens will be single sex with both girl and boy dens rolling up to a single pack.

[chiguirre]

Well, we're not athiests, and in reviewing this I discovered they took away the transgender ban at the beginning of the year, so...time to see if DS wants to join Scouts (and maybe DD too, Girl Scouts was kind of a flop for her thanks to a queen bee troop leader's daughter).

 

Your dd might like Venturers if she's into camping, hiking and adventure outings. You're in a good area for it. I'd put in a plug for Sea Scouts but I have a feeling there are no Ships in the desert.

[mom2scouts]

DD16 belongs to an all-girl Venture crew. DH is part of the adult leadership for the crew and also has his own Boy Scout troop. HIs guess is that they will lower the age for Venture crews from 14 to 11 (to pick up where Cubs age out) and add the option for Eagle to Venture in 2019. He thinks the same thing will go for Sea Scouts, Explorers and STEM, all of which already have a coed option. Many Boy Scout troops have an associated Venture crew already.

 

Eagle starting in 2019 would probably be too late for DD16. She is working on her second level now in Ventures and plans to get all the way through if she can. If Eagle was within reach, I am sure she would be excited and proud to earn it.

 

I think its extremely unlikely that they'll drop the age for Venturing. The whole point of Venturing was to offer more opportunities to older Scouts to keep them in the program. BSA pushes troops to have an associated Venture Crew specifically to keep older boys involved with high adventure activities that might not be appropriate for younger Scouts. They will instead have all girl troops that merge into a Venture Crew already associated with a boys' troop.

 

Someone asked about whether current BSA troops will be open to girls. The answer is no. National BSA says they will keep all *troops* single sex, so there will be all boy troops and all girl troops. Cub Scouts is a bit different and they will allow current Packs to stay all male or they may allow girl dens within the Pack. They can also add all girl Packs. 

Edited October 11, 2017 by mom2scouts

[Beaniemom]

I have never run into a GS troop not accepting new members. What I have run into is a council struggling to find enough leaders for all their girls and so girls end up drifting while the council figures out what to do.

I have run into many, many GS troops that were closed to new members or troops that only took girls who attended that school or lived in a certain area. GS was a nightmare when we moved and 2 councils both told me “well you need to start your own troop†instead of helping me find a troop. Cub scouts has been so much easier to navigate and an all over better experience.

[HomeAgain]

I have never run into a GS troop not accepting new members.  What I have run into is a council struggling to find enough leaders for all their girls and so girls end up drifting while the council figures out what to do. 

 

One thing I do wish GSA would do is require parent participation for the youngest levels - Daisies and Brownies.  Daisies can be dropped off.  In Cubs, Tiger parents (Tigers are 1st grade) have to stay with their kids.  It's billed as a family program.  A good Tiger leader will use that to his/her advantage and teach the parents along with the kids and ask each parent in turn to help with developing scout meetings for a month around a part of the guide.  The parents are then less likely to feel intimidated and will step in as assistant leaders in the pack, with a few turning leader.  It's an easy way to keep the organization running. :)

[HomeAgain]

Woah, I just caught that number.  

 

Genuine question, what is the required adult to child ratio for BS? 

 

 

IIRC, GS required a 5 to 1 ratio (of course last time I was a leader was 10 yrs ago, I could be wrong or it could have changed.)

I want to say it's 8:1....but that number might be off.  But Tigers all have parents there and it's very rare to have one adult ever with the boys.  They're all divided into dens at the elementary level: Tiger, Wolf, Bear, Webelo 1 & 2, and a troop is divided into patrols at the middle/high level, with a clear hierarchy among the boys.

[Jyhwkmama]

Woah, I just caught that number.

 

Genuine question, what is the required adult to child ratio for BS?

 

 

IIRC, GS required a 5 to 1 ratio (of course last time I was a leader was 10 yrs ago, I could be wrong or it could have changed.)

Cub scouts (which are organized into dens and roll up to packs) Require about that ratio for camping. They require two deep leadership which requires two adults always to be present to prevent child abuse. I think at day camp we could have 14 kids with two adults, but I could be a little off on the number.

 

No idea about boys scout troops except that there must be two deep leadership.

[mamaraby]

My son is an atheist is a cub scout, we are UU. UU has "an understanding" with cub scouts where we can say "the quest for truth" is what we're reverent about , or some nonsense like that.

The UU may have a memorandum of understanding, but BSA has made clear that you cannot be an atheist and a scout, let alone an Eagle scout because we cannot agree with the Declaration of Religious Principle.

 

Ethically speaking, ds was uncomfortable playing that game and I agree so no scouts for him. Maybe one day they’ll change, but it will be too late for ds.

[Soror]

Woah, I just caught that number.  

 

Genuine question, what is the required adult to child ratio for BS? 

 

 

IIRC, GS required a 5 to 1 ratio (of course last time I was a leader was 10 yrs ago, I could be wrong or it could have changed.)

 

It has been awhile since I've been in Cub Scouts so I can't remember. Cub Scouts is made of 5 different Dens, it is bottom heavy, sometimes the Dens might need to split when they are too big. Generally each Den has a Den Leader and Assistant. IMO unless the kids are really young 5 to 1 is a bit ridiculous.

 

eta a pp is right, you have to have parents there for Tigers which is (nearly) always the biggest group- we had 30 in Tigers alone when ds was in Cubs and they do focus on two deep leadership at all times.

I have run into many, many GS troops that were closed to new members or troops that only took girls who attended that school or lived in a certain area. GS was a nightmare when we moved and 2 councils both told me “well you need to start your own troop†instead of helping me find a troop. Cub scouts has been so much easier to navigate and an all over better experience.

From what I hear of the local GS troops people say they sign up, pay money, and then they don't have any Troop to go to. 

Edited October 11, 2017 by soror

[J-rap]

I have mixed feelings, because I think there are some advantages to girls having their own group and boys having their own group.  But, I know very little about either organization really.  I'm pretty certain though that my girls, if they were involved in one of them, would have enjoyed how the boy scouts groups are run more than the girl scout groups.  (A couple of my girls actually did attend one girl scout meeting and decided right away that at least that particular group wasn't for them.)

 

I guess I wish that the girl scout groups would run similarly to boy scout groups.

 

But yes, make sure it's open to everyone as far as religion.

 

[Soror]

Cub scouts (which are organized into dens and roll up to packs) Require about that ratio for camping. They require two deep leadership which requires two adults always to be present to prevent child abuse. I think at day camp we could have 14 kids with two adults, but I could be a little off on the number.

 

No idea about boys scout troops except that there must be two deep leadership.

Our Cubbies only did Family Camping. I don't what ratio they had for Day Camp, dh and I were never able to help with that.

[Elizabeth86]

So, thats all good and well, but they will not be boy scouts?? They are girls. Are they going to change the name? I just couldnt imagine as a little girl being thrilled to be called a boy scout.

[Lady Florida.]

Meh. They still won’t let atheists in. I’ll celebrate them when kids like my son can be members of Boy Scouts. In the meantime, maybe Girl Scouts will open their organization to boys and rhen kids like my son can be a member. We’ll stick with the Girl Scouts who openly welcome my atheist girls.

 

That's why ds quit. He thought at first he could just hide it but before he got out of Cub Scouts (he was Webelos 1) he decided he'd rather not pretend to be someone he isn't just to stay in BSA. 

[OrganicJen]

Meh. They still won’t let atheists in. I’ll celebrate them when kids like my son can be members of Boy Scouts. In the meantime, maybe Girl Scouts will open their organization to boys and rhen kids like my son can be a member. We’ll stick with the Girl Scouts who openly welcome my atheist girls.

 

In our local area they had no problem letting my atheist son in, but it's such a religious troop that the majority of their activities were related to their church and not to earning badges or anything.  So even though they let him in he basically never went to any activities because they were more religious based than scouting based.  We sort of thought something like that might happen but we gave it a shot because my son was so interested in community service and he thought they did that type of thing.  His troop didn't do any community service at all, just church stuff.  It was really sad.  We eventually found an actual teen service group in our area that he was able to join that has worked out much better at least and he can help people along with other kids so it's more what he was looking for.  

[poppy]

I have run into many, many GS troops that were closed to new members or troops that only took girls who attended that school or lived in a certain area. GS was a nightmare when we moved and 2 councils both told me “well you need to start your own troop†instead of helping me find a troop. Cub scouts has been so much easier to navigate and an all over better experience.

 

Me & my co-leader stopped our troop at 12 girls because if we had more girls, we couldnt' take them anywhere.  The safety ratio required was 2 adults for 12 girls.  So we turned additional girls away.

 

I love, love, love, love that it was just us & the kids instead of 'every parent and sibling' the way Boy Scouts is.  Not everything needs to be the whole family.  Girls working together, singing together, solving problems together, playing games together was just a lovely thing, and really built  a sense of community between them.

[poppy]

Ok, so the ratio is 6 o 1 then? 

 

You always have to have at least 2 unrelated adults with a background check. 

But 2:12 is for the youngest scouts.  As the girls get older it is more like 2:20. 

[Lady Florida.]

In our local area they had no problem letting my atheist son in, but it's such a religious troop that the majority of their activities were related to their church and not to earning badges or anything.  So even though they let him in he basically never went to any activities because they were more religious based than scouting based.  We sort of thought something like that might happen but we gave it a shot because my son was so interested in community service and he thought they did that type of thing.  His troop didn't do any community service at all, just church stuff.  It was really sad.  We eventually found an actual teen service group in our area that he was able to join that has worked out much better at least and he can help people along with other kids so it's more what he was looking for.

 

There are a number of CS packs and BS troops who will look the other way, but the bottom line is that the BSA still believes atheists are bad people. Actually, so are agnostics.They don't believe you can grow to become a good citizen without a belief in a god. They don't allow openly atheist or even agnostic adults to be leaders. Even when packs/troops don't make an issue of it or allow an atheist scout to fudge on the belief and reverence bit they're still suggesting the atheist scout pretend to be someone he's not. Which oddly enough encourages them to not be "the best kind of citizen". 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_membership_controversies#Position_on_religious_belief

 

"The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, ‘On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law.’ The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members."

The BSA believes that atheists and agnostics are not appropriate role models of the Scout Oath and Law for boys, and thus will not accept such persons as members or adult leaders.

Yes, it's Wiki, but it was the easiest and it IS correct.

 

Editing to add - I agree that UU is different. BSA does have an agreement with the UU church, though they've had their disagreements and the relationship is a shaky one. If one belongs to a UU church then I don't consider that they're pretending if they're following their churches beliefs (and even lack thereof as might be the case with some UU's). However for atheists who choose not to belong the the UU church (I can't think of any other church that would accept atheists with open arms) then those scouts have no recourse but to fake a belief in something or quit.

Edited October 12, 2017 by Lady Florida.

[Guest]

Isn't a "program equal to Boy Scouts" called Girl Scouts, and the Eagle equivalent called a Star?

 

I think that it's sad that the Girl Scouts wasn't seen as good enough. That the Boy Scouts were the "real" scouts.

 

I was a Brownie and a Girl Scout, and proud of it. My ds was a Boy Scout, and is an Eagle. I see no reason whatsoever to open the Boy Scouts to girls other than political correctness.

Edited October 12, 2017 by Fifiruth

[bettyandbob]

Well I don't recall all of older DS scout activities being whole family involved. In fact I only remember either I or dh went, not the whole family.

 

As for girl scout troops closing, my dds troop never closed, but her leader was amazing. Her leader ran brownies, juniors, cadets and seniors. She also led a venture crew that most of the senior girl scouts were in.

[Bluegoat]

So, here in Canada the Boy Scouts have been entirely open to girls for many years.

 

Girl Scouts, who are called Guides here, are still a very active organization that only allows girls.

 

It actually seems to be the boys who lose out, I'm afraid.  It's very rare to find a boy only group, and quite a lot of the leaders are women now.  Which is ok in one sense, but I think boys can stand to gain from boy only organizations as much as girls can.  Or maybe even more in some cases, given that absentee fathers seem more common than absentee mothers.

[mamajag]

I suspect my daughter's girl scout leader will turn us to into a Boy Scout troop.   We have 24 girls, all 9 years old, but many of the girls (and the troop leader) have family in Boy Scouts and see it is, in some ways, better run .  It definitely offers more volunteer support.  Only challenge for me is that  Boy Scout is discriminatory....

 

I think this is a very big threat to American Heritage Girls. 

It's a threat to Girl Scouts, not AHG. The people who are participating in AHG won't go for putting their girls in "Boy Scouts" and will likely pull their sons from Boy Scouts in favor of more traditional, Christian oriented scouting for boys.

[blondeviolin]

I'm the den leader for my son's tiger den. We have ten boys active in our den.

 

My older son has a great den leader who has been awesome in understanding and appreciating him for his boy-ish quirks.

 

Our pack approaches the faith aspect of BSA very hands-off. Each of those advancements are on the child and parent to complete. The Scout Oath mentions God, however. I can see where that would be upsetting for atheists or agnostics.

 

I was told that a good reason for this push is to make scouting even more of a whole-family experience. FWIW, my boys' pack does run as a family friendly group. Toddlers and babies are often hanging around. Whole families come for the summer events and sometimes pack meeting.

 

I am grateful that the dens will still be gender segregated. Boys and girls are often inherently different. I'm not sure my girls will be joining, but they do have other activities that are girl-geared. They do not do Girl Scouts because I do not support some of the platforms the organization supports.

[Soror]

It's a threat to Girl Scouts, not AHG. The people who are participating in AHG won't go for putting their girls in "Boy Scouts" and will likely pull their sons from Boy Scouts in favor of more traditional, Christian oriented scouting for boys.

Not everyone in AHG for sure, I know in my Troop I can only think of one family who is opposed to Boy Scouts. The rest of us would love to be able to have our girls in a program through BS. 

[momacacia]

I'm sad and annoyed, but mainly because I'm tired of girls not getting what they actually want, not being listened to and then having to join the boys so that they can get the recognition and skills they want and deserve. I love that girls and boys had their own organizations because you know what, they are different in ways that matter beyond what badges to get. But Eagle Scout is way more recognized and there is just more rigor in general, it seems, for the boys. So, once again, girls have to be measured by what boys have achieved rather than getting what THEY wanted all along. Do they want a lot of the same things as the boys? Sure, many do. But they are wonderfully, beautifully NOT boys in important ways. And...no one cares. :(

THIS!

[momacacia]

We haven't gotten to Boy Scout age with our boys yet, and my DH was not a Scout. However, he is really unimpressed with what he sees around town that passes for an Eagle Scout project. Maybe the park benches and small erosion run off protection on hiking trails are really part of a larger project the kids are doing, but that's all he sees and is disappointed.

 

We've also interviewed some Eagle Scouts at our business and it was not impressive. You can get this with anything, I know, but we were hoping that having ES on the resume meant something. I just don't know that Eagle Scout means that much any more. I cant imagine there's any great loss to girls not being in BS.

[JFSinIL]

My girls dropped out of Girl Scouts when the badges all changed, everything became "journeys" or whatever it it just got , well, boring.  I had already seen one older boy through Boy Scouts (whatever the level is before Eagle, that is when he left Scouting) and the merit badges for the boys were so much "stronger" in what was expected to be learned and accomplished.  Had girls been allowed in Boy Scout troop back then, I would encouraged my two to join.

 

My kid sister got her private pilot license back in the day (1970s) from Boy Scouts.  Venture troop or whatever the co-ed for 14 and up troops were called then.

 

Maybe the Boy Scouts can eventually just be Scouts.  Then you can join Scouts as a boy or girl, join a co-ed or gender specific troop/pack but each work on same worthy merit badges and earn Eagle if meet the requirements.

 

Girls Scouts can stay GIRL Scouts for those who prefer to stay with that program.  Maybe losing some girls to BSA will make GSA beef up their offerings.

 

 

Edited October 12, 2017 by JFSinIL

[Supertechmom]

I was a Cub Scout leader and day camp director.    OMG   i can't wait to get involved again.  We dropped when the girl came along because I couldn't see doing all these cool things with the boys (which she would be apart of as she would have to attend since I was the leader) and then going to the absolute lame and mind boring girl scout crap.  Social butterfly???  Scouts learned real exciting and lifetime skills.  Girl scouts was just mean girl queen bee reinforcement time.   Now, with another boy after her, they can both attend the same thing. I can do one activity and we can not be split among activities. 

[eternalsummer]

 

 

I view AHG as rely as a conservative Christian rejection of Girl Scouts.  If Boy Scouts is an option, I don't see why anyone would bother with AHG.

 

Well, presumably because they want a single-sex organization; I was also under the impression that AHG was more conservative than Boy Scouts.

[AppleGreen]

My GSs are thrilled. They feel GS focuses more on fundraising and community service, the latter they like, the former not so much. My girls (particularly my older one) want to learn "real outdoor skills". She has said for the last year that the Gold Award does not carry the weight of the Eagle. She completed her Silver (which was a lot of work), but is iffy on the Gold because in her opinion most people do not recognize the time and effort that goes into a Gold the way they recognize an Eagle. 

 

 

[ktgrok]

Only downside is that cookies are easier to sell than popcorn. 

[Jyhwkmama]

Only downside is that cookies are easier to sell than popcorn.

True, but boy scouts get to keep much more of their revenue for their individual packs and for their camp fees.

[marbel]

Isn't a "program equal to Boy Scouts" called Girl Scouts, and the Eagle equivalent called a Star?

 

I think that it's sad that the Girl Scouts wasn't seen as good enough. That the Boy Scouts were the "real" scouts.

 

I was a Brownie and a Girl Scout, and proud of it. My ds was a Boy Scout, and is an Eagle. I see no reason whatsoever to open the Boy Scouts to girls other than political correctness.

 

But some of us are saying that GSA wasn't seen as "good enough" because the activities weren't as good.  I'm not sure that they're not seen as "real" scouts. 

 

My daughter camped in a cabin with bunkbeds and bathrooms.  Her brother camped in a tent or outside.  He went rock climbing (at an indoor gym) and back-packing; her leaders decided rock climbing was too scary and backpacking too hard. It was a pretty obvious difference, having both kids in Scouting at the same time. 

 

If GSA had more interesting/challenging activities, they wouldn't have been seen as inferior and there probably wouldn't be any demand to allow girls into BSA.

Edited October 12, 2017 by marbel

[maize]

Boys scouts has some awesome scout camps. I'm so excited for those to be open to girls!

 

(My mom spent many happy summers at boy scout camp as a child, her dad was a BSA employee and ran a great camp. I grew up on her stories and always wanted to be a boy scout.)

[Spy Car]

Almost 50 years ago I felt it was necessary to quit the Cub Scouts when I came to realize I didn;t pass their religious test.

 

Nothing has changed in that regard.

 

So I say: Shame on you BSA!

 

Until this bigotry ends I consider Boy Scots a hate group.

 

Bill

 

 

[Seasider]

Well, our Scouting years are behind us but this news actually makes me kind of sad. I think there is value in single-sex organizations for kids/teens. Though, I have to say, Girl Scouts paled in comparison with Boy Scouts with regard to activities when my kids were involved in those organizations. The boys did get to do much more exciting things, and the merit badges were for real achievements whereas the badges and such for GSA were not. That's my memory and experience, anyway, from 7 or so years ago.

This is sort of where I stand. Problem is, nothing earned through a female scouting organization is as widely recognized as an Eagle Scout award.

 

Before a tomato is thrown, I didn't say the girls earning top level GSA and AHG ranks didn't work as hard as a guy who earns Eagle, I'm just saying those don't have the level of familiarity. They should, but they don't.

[ktgrok]

Almost 50 years ago I felt it was necessary to quit the Cub Scouts when I came to realize I didn;t pass their religious test.

 

Nothing has changed in that regard.

 

So I say: Shame on you BSA!

 

Until this bigotry ends I consider Boy Scots a hate group.

 

Bill

 

A religious organization being a religious organization does not equal it being a hate group. I wish they'd change to incorporate atheists, but wanting to be religious in nature doesn't make them a hate group. Unless we are lumping all religious groups and churches/etc into that category?

[Daria]

A religious organization being a religious organization does not equal it being a hate group. I wish they'd change to incorporate atheists, but wanting to be religious in nature doesn't make them a hate group. Unless we are lumping all religious groups and churches/etc into that category?

 

I am not sure I'd go so far as "hate group", but there's a big difference between saying 'We're an organization for people who believe X" and "We're an organization for people with any belief system except X".  

[Guest]

I do remember being a bit jealous of my scouting brothers because they got to do cool outside activities like camping. My female GS leaders refused to do any camping with the troop.

[theelfqueen]

Your dd might like Venturers if she's into camping, hiking and adventure outings. You're in a good area for it. I'd put in a plug for Sea Scouts but I have a feeling there are no Ships in the desert.

 

We have one ship of Sea Scouts in Colorado Springs, 1000 miles to the nearest ocean - they sail on a lake.

[Reefgazer]

I can't imagine what the Boy Scouts hopes to accomplish with this, or why a girl would want to join Boy Scouts when the Girl Scouts are open and accessible; they already have Venture scouting for those who want the coed experience.  It can't be for Eagle because the GS already have a Gold Award, which IMO is far more in-depth than most Eagle projects I've seen approved by our BS council.  Although I will admit that the Gold Award that DD did was approved and guided by her leader, who is extraordinary and an exceptional leader.  It seems most Gold Award aren't that rigorous. 

 

So it's no longer Boy Scouts and they need to change their name.

Edited October 12, 2017 by reefgazer

[itsheresomewhere]

I can't imagine what the Boy Scouts hopes to accomplish with this, or why a girl would want to join Boy Scouts when the Girl Scouts are open and accessible; they already have Venture scouting for those who want the coed experience. It can't be for Eagle because the GS already have a Gold Award, which IMO is far more in-depth than most Eagle projects I've seen approved by our BS council. So it's no longer Boy Scouts and they need to change their name.

Some of us on here can introduce you to why girls would want to join. When your projects and fun stuff are making necklaces or throwing tea parties compared to Boy Scouts who do things. Also, not all places have accessible Girl Scout troops.

Edited October 12, 2017 by itsheresomewhere

[Reefgazer]

I think much of this is leader-dependent.  DD is in Girl Scouts and loves it, but her leader is one of those who organizes frequent campouts with canoeing, hiking, and real action activities, and expects the girls to learn to do on their own.  I will admit some of the badges are lame, but this past summer at camp, there were quite a few BS badges that were lame as well.

Our GS leader (who is also a Cub Scout leader) is pissed. She thinks the BS are trying to steal from the GS. My thought is, if GS was meatier, maybe the girls wouldn’t want to join BS.

 

[itsheresomewhere]

I think much of this is leader-dependent. DD is in Girl Scouts and loves it, but her leader is one of those who organizes frequent campouts with canoeing, hiking, and real action activities, and expects the girls to learn to do on their own. I will admit some of the badges are lame, but this past summer at camp, there were quite a few BS badges that were lame as well.

I wish the troops around here would do stuff like that but they don't.

[theelfqueen]

In GS....each troop is it's own unit.  And if my 5 to 1 ratio is correct (I hope another GS familiar lady will come and correct me if I am wrong or this has changed.) that means if you have 6 girls in your troop, you have to have a second leader.  The idea of different dens and packs and troops.....I don't really understand all that to be honest.  With GS, a troop is a troop.  You usually have one leader and probably a co-leader plus however many girls, usually 8 to 10 per a troop, though my DD8 was in a troop with 30 girls (which, in my experience is HUGE HUGE for a troop) and they had a TON of co leaders.

 

Cub Scouts (1st -5th grade) are organized into Packs (the larger unit) and those packs are made up of Dens (single age group units, by grade -- Tiger, Wolf, Bear, Webelo 1, and Webelo 2) The Dens meet separately (usually once a week) to work on requirements for rank. Den leaders do the planning and organizing for their meetings but the requirements for ALL boys who earn a rank is the same -- every Wolf in the US does very similar things (there are some variances like "Do 5 of these" with 10 possible requirements in an area but they have to meet requirements in each of several areas).  Then the whole pack meets (usually once a month) for joint events, recognition, etc.

 

Boys Scouts (age 11/6th Grade - up to 18) are organized into Troops -- all ages of boys are in one troop. Within the troop there are patrols, but they are NOT divided by Rank/Age -- they should be mixed ranks. Troops vary widely in size but generally 20-80 is typical.  Boy-Run is the watch word. Adults are NOT supposed to be in charge of delivering program and getting younger boys to rank -- the boys are. Again rank advancements are very well defined. Every kid who earns 2nd class did the same things to get it.  Adults have plenty of tasks to do... to facilitate the boys. (Our current troop has 83 registered boys and I can't even guess how many adult leaders in various roles)

 

Venture Crews (Ages 14-18) are High Adventure units available to both Boys and Girls.

Explorer Posts  (Ages 14-20) are focused on a career field and again available to both Boys and Girls.

Sea Scouts (Ages 14-21) are focused on Nautical Skills.... sort of, and again available to both.

 

Edited October 12, 2017 by theelfqueen

[Reefgazer]

The one area where I think BS outshines GS is that in BS the leaders (dads, mostly) expect the boys to carry the workload of campouts, cleaning camp supplies/campsites, leading the meetings, and organizing campouts and other activities.  I've sat in on a few BS meetings and the dads sit on the couch chatting while the boys sit around a table with the scoutmaster and plan activities.  The upshot is that the dads are not doing a whole lot of hands-on work, at least compared to the GS moms/leaders; their main role seems to be as chaperones.  I actually think this is a good thing because it teaches the boys self-reliance, and is probably the reason our troop has a pretty high Eagle production rate.  I've noticed that the GS do not have the same leadership expectations of the girls, which is bad for the girls and puts more work on the moms to do the nitty-gritty of organizing activities.   

I think most studies are still showing that women tend to do the majority of the household management and child care type of work in families, regardless of how many hours may or may not be put into working.  So yeah, I do think that women often have less time to make a big volunteer commitment to running a quality troop.  I do not have the time to commit to running a quality troop......so I don't.  And I think that as a result, GS tends to really struggle getting quality leaders. 

 

[Reefgazer]

That's points to a problem with the leader, and hasn't been our experience.  But this was a BS decision, not a GS decision, and I still don't see what's in it for them, especially since Venture scouting already exists.

Some of us on here can introduce you to why girls would want to join. When your projects and fun stuff are making necklaces or throwing tea parties compared to Boy Scouts who do things. Also, not all places have accessible Girl Scout troops.

 

Edited October 12, 2017 by reefgazer

[Reefgazer]

That's a shame.  Our leader rocks. 

I wish the troops around here would do stuff like that but they don't.

 

[Reefgazer]

I don't think it is fair to say girl's are measured by what boy's achieve, rather than getting what they want.  Although our troop has a leader that is very demanding and challenging (I say this in a good way and with utmost respect for her), from my observations with both BS and GS it seems that the girl's Gold Award does not usually require the same level of independence, leadership skills, and depth that the Eagle requires; it teaches more socially-cooperative skills instead.  If the female leadership of GS wants a program that teaches the same set of skills as the Eagle teaches and is as recognized, they need to design a Gold Award as rigorous as the Eagle.  It is really on the female leadership to take this on; but it seems that they would rather have the less-rigorous program currently offered.  Your ire seems misdirected at boys, rather than on the female leadership where it belongs.

I'm sad and annoyed, but mainly because I'm tired of girls not getting what they actually want, not being listened to and then having to join the boys so that they can get the recognition and skills they want and deserve.  I love that girls and boys had their own organizations because you know what, they are different in ways that matter beyond what badges to get.  But Eagle Scout is way more recognized and there is just more rigor in general, it seems, for the boys.  So, once again, girls have to be measured by what boys have achieved rather than getting what THEY wanted all along.  Do they want a lot of the same things as the boys?  Sure, many do. But they are wonderfully, beautifully NOT boys in important ways.  And...no one cares.   :(

 

Edited October 12, 2017 by reefgazer