Boy Scouts to open up to girls

[Lady Florida.]

But this is exactly why I'm so confused. Your son's den accepts all of these groups but not atheists or agnostics. Why? I know it's in the rules of the scouts that you have to have a spiritual belief, but why? I'm not trying to be snarky. I just don't understand the reasoning.

 

Because apparently one cannot become "the best kind of citizen" without a belief in a deity.  :rolleyes:  That's in their rules and it states that's why they won't accept atheists or agnostics as either scouts or leaders. I posted a link to that policy upthread.

 

What I and others find hypocritical is that some leaders encourage boys to pretend in order to get around the requirement. How is encouraging a boy to lie, or lie by omission, helping him become "the best kind of citizen"? 

 

I think it's good that some are fighting from within. If everyone who disagrees just quits then nothing will change. There is a need for people who will fight from within the organization. That (along with outside pressure) is what eventually got BSA to change their discriminatory policy against boys in the LGBT community. And hopefully it will eventually bring about a change in the policy prohibiting atheists and agnostics. In the meantime however, they should not be teaching boys (and now girls) to lie and to hide who they really are.

[Rosika]

 

What I and others find hypocritical is that some leaders encourage boys to pretend in order to get around the requirement. How is encouraging a boy to lie, or lie by omission, helping him become "the best kind of citizen"? 

 

 

I don't get this either. I fell into homeschooling because (as a Catholic) I could not sign the profession of faith required by our local, Classical school. I mean, I could ... and I know Catholics who did ... and the registrar suggested that our faiths weren't really "all that apart" on the matter that I was most balking at ... but, like, in my heart I could not deny who I was and what I believed. (Or in the case you present, who I am and what I do not believe.)

 

I have a great deal of respect for those families who fight for what they believe in by first opting out. I understand why some families instead choose to fight from within. It's a difficult decision to make either way. I don't judge any of them for the choices they've made. I'm just glad I haven't been in the position to choose that for scouting, the way I had to for education. 

[Spy Car]

The best way to find out about this aspect is just to look at the early scouting materials.  They're very explicit in seeing the activities the scouts are involved in as outgrowths of their religious life and spirituality, and they talk about what that means in a non-sectarian context.

 

Generally what those resources say is that they leave specific teaching about spirituality to parents, but the kids are encouraged to think about it themselves, if they are old enough, sometimes in a more general kind of way, and the program is meant to afford an opportunity for kids to experience it as well, in a direct way, through service, being in nature, and so on.

 

Given that this is a homeschooling board - I'd compare it to Charlotte Mason's approach to education - in fact she was a major proponent of scouting and did a lot to spread it in the UK as she saw it as a great way to move towards many of her educational objectives.  Her ideas about our relation to God, nature, technology, and community as being based in our spiritual nature is very close to what you see in the old scouting resources.  So the pursuit of those things is seen as one way for the students - or scouts - to develop their relationship with the natural world and in the community and through that become more fully human.  

 

Sometimes that might be made explicit to the kids, but not always - but it would need to be understood by those running the program in order to orient it in that direction. 

 

You point to these early scouting materials as if they were are positive, when in fact many would be shocked by the paganism and anti-Christian nature worship and romanticization of folk-spirits at the core of this movement.

 

Exactly the same movement was afoot in Germany--and was a direct influence on Baden-Powell.

 

The Germans called their embrace of mysticism, spirituality, paganism, naturalism, and belief folk-spirits the Völkisch movement. This movement was directly involved in the rise of Nazism.

 

Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf: "the basic ideas of the National-Socialist movement are völkisch and the völkisch ideas are National-Socialist."  

 

Baden-Powell expressly praised both Hitler and the writing on Mein Kampf which he called "a wonderful book, with good ideas on education, health, propaganda, organisation etc."

 

In fact, had in not been for the pesky war, Baden-Powell hoped to bring the Boy Scouts and Hitler Youth together. In 1937 Baden-Powell wrote that he was "most anxious that the Scouts should come into closer touch with the youth movement in Germany."

 

I would suggest if you are going to cite the historical record that it be done with clear eyes. It might not be what you think it is.

 

Bill

[Sandwalker]

The best way to find out about this aspect is just to look at the early scouting materials. They're very explicit in seeing the activities the scouts are involved in as outgrowths of their religious life and spirituality, and they talk about what that means in a non-sectarian context.

 

Generally what those resources say is that they leave specific teaching about spirituality to parents, but the kids are encouraged to think about it themselves, if they are old enough, sometimes in a more general kind of way, and the program is meant to afford an opportunity for kids to experience it as well, in a direct way, through service, being in nature, and so on.

 

Given that this is a homeschooling board - I'd compare it to Charlotte Mason's approach to education - in fact she was a major proponent of scouting and did a lot to spread it in the UK as she saw it as a great way to move towards many of her educational objectives. Her ideas about our relation to God, nature, technology, and community as being based in our spiritual nature is very close to what you see in the old scouting resources. So the pursuit of those things is seen as one way for the students - or scouts - to develop their relationship with the natural world and in the community and through that become more fully human.

 

Sometimes that might be made explicit to the kids, but not always - but it would need to be understood by those running the program in order to orient it in that direction.

This is an excellent post, thank you.

[Homebody2]

I know nothing about the history of scouting, or the origins of the movement. I'm not interested in knowing, and I recognize that this is a luxury afforded me because it's never been an issue for me. I don't know why spirituality is part of scouting, either, but to answer your question about it looks like at meetings ...

 

We've been a part of three scouting troops. Each had a leadership position of Chaplain, which was a six-month commitment at the boy level for which he was nominated and voted in. This role looked different at each troop, as most things will.

 

Troop A is chartered by the public school. The Chaplain's role was to act as a clearing house for religious emblems (along with the Committee's help.) Interested scouts would contact the chaplain for information on how to earn the religious emblems. The chaplain was also responsible for ensuring religious needs were met on camp outs. This was most notable for dietary needs such as keeping kosher, vegetarian options, meatless Fridays for Catholics, etc.; and for prayer needs such as for practicing Muslims.

 

Troop B is chartered by the Catholic Church. The Chaplain's role was to lead prayer before and after the meetings and meals (these were always optional), to assist with Mass on camp outs (also optional), and to be "shepherd" his fellow scouts. That meant praying with them upon their request, sending out prayer requests and keeping other families in the loop when serious situations arose (deaths, births, surgeries) so that meal trains, cards, etc. could be set up. He also ran the service event attached to All Souls' Day, which was cleaning up abandoned grave sites at our local cemetery.

 

Troop C is chartered by a Protestant Church. I think it's Episcapalian? Maybe Methodist? We're in the Bible Belt. The Chaplain's role is to be a liason with the charter organization. He ensures we're good stewards of the space we're allowed to use, and that we do at least one service event per year to give back to the church. This is our current troop, and when my son was in this position he added the task of being the clearinghouse for religious emblems - no one in the troop was aware that these were even options. He promoted the program and helped interested scouts get in touch with area groups. This troop ends all of its meetings with a short prayer. It's probably optional, because our troop is low key, but nobody has ever opted out or to consider making it known that it's optional.

OK, this confuses me even more. Do the groups chartered by churches who practice prayer and rituals particular to their own faiths have to accept a Hindu or Morman, or can they discriminate based on the fact that the group was chartered by a particular church? And if they have to accept said child, do they change their prayers and rituals to accommodate everyone since all spirituality is welcome?

 

ETA, I'm further confused that a public school can charter a scouting troop but then not welcome everyone.

Edited October 15, 2017 by Homebody2

[Homebody2]

Generally what those resources say is that they leave specific teaching about spirituality to parents, but the kids are encouraged to think about it themselves, if they are old enough, sometimes in a more general kind of way, and the program is meant to afford an opportunity for kids to experience it as well, in a direct way, through service, being in nature, and so on.

 

Given that this is a homeschooling board - I'd compare it to Charlotte Mason's approach to education - in fact she was a major proponent of scouting and did a lot to spread it in the UK as she saw it as a great way to move towards many of her educational objectives. Her ideas about our relation to God, nature, technology, and community as being based in our spiritual nature is very close to what you see in the old scouting resources. So the pursuit of those things is seen as one way for the students - or scouts - to develop their relationship with the natural world and in the community and through that become more fully human.

 

Sometimes that might be made explicit to the kids, but not always - but it would need to be understood by those running the program in order to orient it in that direction.

I still fail to see why a child who is agnostic or atheist can't benefit from this. If specific teaching about spiritual beliefs is left up to the parents, and children are encouraged to grow as people through communing with nature and service to the community, why are agnostics and atheists prohibited? Growing as people through connecting with nature and through service can be done without having a specific spiritual belief. I still fail to understand why having a specific spirituality is part of scouting.

[Bluegoat]

You point to these early scouting materials as if they were are positive, when in fact many would be shocked by the paganism and anti-Christian nature worship and romanticization of folk-spirits at the core of this movement.

 

Exactly the same movement was afoot in Germany--and was a direct influence on Baden-Powell.

 

The Germans called their embrace of mysticism, spirituality, paganism, naturalism, and belief folk-spirits the Völkisch movement. This movement was directly involved in the rise of Nazism.

 

Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf: "the basic ideas of the National-Socialist movement are völkisch and the völkisch ideas are National-Socialist."  

 

Baden-Powell expressly praised both Hitler and the writing on Mein Kampf which he called "a wonderful book, with good ideas on education, health, propaganda, organisation etc."

 

In fact, had in not been for the pesky war, Baden-Powell hoped to bring the Boy Scouts and Hitler Youth together. In 1937 Baden-Powell wrote that he was "most anxious that the Scouts should come into closer touch with the youth movement in Germany."

 

I would suggest if you are going to cite the historical record that it be done with clear eyes. It might not be what you think it is.

 

Bill

 

I really don't think Bill that you're in any position to know about what is and isn't anti-Christian.

 

The Nazi's use of religion was to a particular utilitarian end, certainly, and not rooted in much authentic belief, though it's doubtful whether BP really could have know that, and he certainly doesn't seem to have felt that way himself.  It was very much influenced, in so far as it was authentic, in Romanticism.  Many, many people rather foolishly thought Hitler's ideas were benign or even good, before it was revealed what they came to, including ones we would tend to think would be on a different side of the historical question.

 

But really, this is not much about BP's personal views - he wasn't a very good soldier either, but that really doesn't much matter.  The question is around what was the vision of the scouting movement. And it did include spirituality as a fundamental element, and continued to do so for quite some time - it's one reason it's been so common to have units run out of churches and even funded by them. 

 

What's really fascinating to me here is you clearly know quite well that your claim that spirituality was not an integral part of the conception of the organization was entirely false.  And now instead you are going with - BP wasn't a great person, so we should have nothing to do with it.  I'm not sure, give that you think the founder is so important, and you are so disgusted by him, why you would have any interest in the organization at all.  

[nixpix5]

I don't think is the issue at all. It's not really personal issue about nefarious proselytizing children.

 

It's more a matter of - how do we actively talk, and act, to teach spirituality as a core value, if there are people in the group who don't believe in that in any way? Or even, will people who take that view apply pressure to drop that kind of element - people like Bill who think it's wrong and asking the kids to lie and haven't even a more personal take on the subject that they can reconcile.

 

This is a common problem in religious schools that take any child and are popular enough that many kids not of the target group join. Elements that don't resonate or are distasteful to those kids can begin to be de-emphasised or glossed over - even dropped altogether if the mandate isn't clear and strong enough to make that difficult.

This. This is what I meant by people who don't believe in any God trying to alter or change things from the inside. It has happened countless times. That is why I am all for starting groups that accommodate all kids, that offer all things but allow those with beliefs be it for God or not. We all need places we feel safe and free to share life they way we see as right. No hate necessary. I love America for its willingness to allow people to live life and worship how they see fit.

 

I am a reformed Christian but I have a ton of Muslim friends, Jewish friends and the like. To use Bill's repetitive argument "it is false" to assume we are all sitting around thinking people are going to hell. Who knows who is right and who is wrong? I personally can care less. I believe in a God and I believe in Jesus. My friends and I share a common denominator that there is something more to this world. Being able to share that common denominator does make a HUGE difference in how we share life together. I am fine with and have friends who are atheist. For crying out loud I was atheist my entire life until I became a scientist. The issue isn't that people are sitting around saying atheists are amoral. Those who believe in God want to talk about it. God is the most important part of their life. So that is really hard to have someone come in a group, be offended by the talk of God and tell an entire group of people not to talk about the most important thing in their life.

 

Again, neither here nor there because BSA has become a secular organization by in large in how they function. God was made small until he basically disappeared from it. I just grow tired of the exact same argument to every differing of opinion "it is false...BSA is a hate group, BSA is bigotry..." repeat. I would say if you feel that strongly go do what Christians have done for decades, start your own group for atheists. That would be an amazing thing to offer to a group of kids who want to not hear about God.

 

I wasn't going to add anything else as I was trying to respect what people were asking for and to just talk about girls joining. So I am done. I just think we are speaking different languages on this and will have to agree to disagree.

[Bluegoat]

I still fail to see why a child who is agnostic or atheist can't benefit from this. If specific teaching about spiritual beliefs is left up to the parents, and children are encouraged to grow as people through communing with nature and service to the community, why are agnostics and atheists prohibited? Growing as people through connecting with nature and through service can be done without having a specific spiritual belief. I still fail to understand why having a specific spirituality is part of scouting.

 

Well, the child might.  Though it's not just growing as people, it's understanding that as a spiritual action or result.  Almost anyone with a spiritual belief will believe that connection is real, but obviously if you don't have such a belief, you don't.

 

I think there are probably a few ideas going on in terms of managing membership.  

 

One is that I suspect it is not so much the child's belief they are interested in as the parents.  Most kids probably notionally believe what the family does, and OTOH whether they do or don't they may have to do what the parents choose, and they probably aren't fixed in their views.

 

So really, I think it's probably more about parental support of the goals of the organization, which can really impact how an organization operates over time.

 

In some places, scouting movements leave it more open to the families whether they think their own spiritual views are compatible, even if they would not tend to use the same language.  I think that has advantages - the biggest disadvantage is probably that people can come to think means it isn't important, or you could even see pressure put on internally to drop that aspect.  That would not be an unheard of turn of events.

 

The other thing I would say is that in the US, views seem much more polarized on many topics - there seems to be a feeling from both sides that atheists an non-atheists are pretty radically different in their ideas and ways of thinking.  So I guess more extreme organizational polarization tends to follow.

[Spy Car]

I really don't think Bill that you're in any position to know about what is and isn't anti-Christian.

 

The Nazi's use of religion was to a particular utilitarian end, certainly, and not rooted in much authentic belief, though it's doubtful whether BP really could have know that, and he certainly doesn't seem to have felt that way himself.  It was very much influenced, in so far as it was authentic, in Romanticism.  Many, many people rather foolishly thought Hitler's ideas were benign or even good, before it was revealed what they came to, including ones we would tend to think would be on a different side of the historical question.

 

But really, this is not much about BP's personal views - he wasn't a very good soldier either, but that really doesn't much matter.  The question is around what was the vision of the scouting movement. And it did include spirituality as a fundamental element, and continued to do so for quite some time - it's one reason it's been so common to have units run out of churches and even funded by them. 

 

What's really fascinating to me here is you clearly know quite well that your claim that spirituality was not an integral part of the conception of the organization was entirely false.  And now instead you are going with - BP wasn't a great person, so we should have nothing to do with it.  I'm not sure, give that you think the founder is so important, and you are so disgusted by him, why you would have any interest in the organization at all.  

 

I think you're being highly presumptuous. 

 

Nazi "romanticism" centering around nature worship, "spiritualism," and folk-mysticism comes out of the same "spiritual movement" that inspired Baden-Powell. The roots of scoutings spirituality came from a paganesque form of nature worship. 

 

Now, after Baden-Powell's racism and affection for fascism is revealed you say his views don't matter when upthread you pointed to him and his spiritual beliefs as a bedrock of the scouting movement. Which is it?

 

I do believe there was a paganesque belief in wood-spirts, fairies, and the like that was mixed into a generalized nature worship in the mind of Baden-Powell, along with his nationalist and racist ideals. I don't deny these things are part of Scouting's heritage. They certainly are.

 

But you are the one pointing to these anachronisms of the past to justify bigotry today. I don't think you are on solid ground here.

 

We can do better than the moral example of Baden-Powell. A lot better.

 

Bill

[Daria]

This. This is what I meant by people who don't believe in any God trying to alter or change things from the inside. It has happened countless times. That is why I am all for starting groups that accommodate all kids, that offer all things but allow those with beliefs be it for God or not. We all need places we feel safe and free to share life they way we see as right. No hate necessary. I love America for its willingness to allow people to live life and worship how they see fit.

 

I am a reformed Christian but I have a ton of Muslim friends, Jewish friends and the like. To use Bill's repetitive argument "it is false" to assume we are all sitting around thinking people are going to hell. Who knows who is right and who is wrong? I personally can care less. I believe in a God and I believe in Jesus. My friends and I share a common denominator that there is something more to this world. Being able to share that common denominator does make a HUGE difference in how we share life together. I am fine with and have friends who are atheist. For crying out loud I was atheist my entire life until I became a scientist. The issue isn't that people are sitting around saying atheists are amoral. Those who believe in God want to talk about it. God is the most important part of their life. So that is really hard to have someone come in a group, be offended by the talk of God and tell an entire group of people not to talk about the most important thing in their life.

 

Again, neither here nor there because BSA has become a secular organization by in large in how they function. God was made small until he basically disappeared from it. I just grow tired of the exact same argument to every differing of opinion "it is false...BSA is a hate group, BSA is bigotry..." repeat. I would say if you feel that strongly go do what Christians have done for decades, start your own group for atheists. That would be an amazing thing to offer to a group of kids who want to not hear about God.

 

I wasn't going to add anything else as I was trying to respect what people were asking for and to just talk about girls joining. So I am done. I just think we are speaking different languages on this and will have to agree to disagree.

 

I have taught in faith based, public secular, and private secular schools, in an area with lots of religious diversity. Every experience I've ever had in a group with a child telling someone else that their beliefs are wrong, or offensive, or that they shouldn't be allowed to say certain things, the child has been Christian.  

 

I'm not sure where this idea that atheists are more likely than people with other beliefs to proselytize comes from. 

 

If the BSA wants to set rules about how the kids talk about religion, then they can do so.  Teaching kids how to talk politely and respectfully about their beliefs with people with different beliefs would be a great thing. But atheists aren't the only ones who need those lessons.

 

No one is saying that BSA needs to stop talking about religion.  They're just saying that children should be allowed to have their own beliefs without being excluded.  

[Sandwalker]

Here's a (lengthy but good) blog on the atheism/BSA issue.

 

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2014/10/03/belief-in-god-scouting/

[Spy Car]

This. This is what I meant by people who don't believe in any God trying to alter or change things from the inside. It has happened countless times. That is why I am all for starting groups that accommodate all kids, that offer all things but allow those with beliefs be it for God or not. We all need places we feel safe and free to share life they way we see as right. No hate necessary. I love America for its willingness to allow people to live life and worship how they see fit.

 

I am a reformed Christian but I have a ton of Muslim friends, Jewish friends and the like. To use Bill's repetitive argument "it is false" to assume we are all sitting around thinking people are going to hell. Who knows who is right and who is wrong? I personally can care less. I believe in a God and I believe in Jesus. My friends and I share a common denominator that there is something more to this world. Being able to share that common denominator does make a HUGE difference in how we share life together. I am fine with and have friends who are atheist. For crying out loud I was atheist my entire life until I became a scientist. The issue isn't that people are sitting around saying atheists are amoral. Those who believe in God want to talk about it. God is the most important part of their life. So that is really hard to have someone come in a group, be offended by the talk of God and tell an entire group of people not to talk about the most important thing in their life.

 

Again, neither here nor there because BSA has become a secular organization by in large in how they function. God was made small until he basically disappeared from it. I just grow tired of the exact same argument to every differing of opinion "it is false...BSA is a hate group, BSA is bigotry..." repeat. I would say if you feel that strongly go do what Christians have done for decades, start your own group for atheists. That would be an amazing thing to offer to a group of kids who want to not hear about God.

 

I wasn't going to add anything else as I was trying to respect what people were asking for and to just talk about girls joining. So I am done. I just think we are speaking different languages on this and will have to agree to disagree.

 

A central tenant of reformed Christianity is Limited Atonement, which means that Jesus only died to save the elect, and that won't include most Christians, much less the followers of Krishna. And if everyone is "totally depraved" (another tenant of reformed Christianity) why only bar those who are not religious from BSA? Are the on-religious more "totally depraved" than anyone else? Clearly not according to reformed theology.

 

You're not denying these central points of reformed theology, are you?

 

Despite Bluegoat's suggestions to the contrary, I have a very clear understanding of Christian theologies.

 

And if BSA has become a secular organization (as you suggest) why bar secularly-mined people? it is a position that rests on bigotry.

 

Bill

[Daria]

Here's a (lengthy but good) blog on the atheism/BSA issue.

 

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2014/10/03/belief-in-god-scouting/

 

Some quotes from the article:

 

 

 

The shortest answer is that we should help Scouts and their families come to realize that a belief in God is integral to Scouting and is a key element in character building. . . .  acknowledges the importance of faith in citizenship development.

 

That pretty clearly states that they believe that atheists can't be people of character, or good citizens.

This part:

 

We have all likely heard horror stories of boys being asked in their Eagle Scout board of review about how they have done their “duty to God,†only to have the youth say they don’t believe in God.

 

Makes it pretty clear that they think that a kid whose views change during the course of their time in scouts, so that they no longer believe in God, or no longer feel comfortable navigating around their lack of belief with logic such as "but I believe in nature, which is pretty much the same thing", should be punished for honesty by having something they've worked for for 6 or 7 years withheld.  

[Sandwalker]

 

 

A central tenant of reformed Christianity is Limited Atonement, which means that Jesus only died to save the elect, and that won't include most Christians, much less the followers of Krishna. And if everyone is "totally depraved" (another tenant of reformed Christianity) why only bar those who are not religious from BSA? Are the on-religious more "totally depraved" than anyone else? Clearly not according to reformed theology.

 

You're not denying these central points of reformed theology, are you?

 

Despite Bluegoat's suggestions to the contrary, I have a very clear understanding of Christian theologies.

 

And if BSA has become a secular organization (as you suggest) why bar secularly-mined people? it is a position that rests on bigotry.

 

Bill

Why try to teach Christians about religion when you are a non-believer and seem so angry about it?

 

Every spiritual person is not a Protestant, you know. Many Protestant sects (sorry if this is the wrong noun) do not believe that everyone besides them goes to hell.

Neither do Roman Catholics. Possibly Muslims do, but I'm not familiar with many Muslim beliefs.

 

Why do you keep bringing up paganism? I don't think today's Christians are very concerned about pagans. I'm Buddhist, so maybe it's just not my fight.

 

I kinda wanted to discuss girls in boy scouts, since it is a big change and new, but I guess this is now another BSA vs atheism thread argument to skip.

[Sandwalker]

Some quotes from the article:

 

 

That pretty clearly states that they believe that atheists can't be people of character, or good citizens.

This part:

Makes it pretty clear that they think that a kid whose views change during the course of their time in scouts, so that they no longer believe in God, or no longer feel comfortable navigating around their lack of belief with logic such as "but I believe in nature, which is pretty much the same thing", should be punished for honesty by having something they've worked for for 6 or 7 years withheld.

I think that lying for six or seven years every time he says the oath does not show good citizenship. The scout troops and leaders should abide by the rules, making them clear to the scouts so they are not denied the Eagle Scout award after having worked toward it. It's on the scout leader if the boy ready to get his Eagle award is denied because he was not informed about all the requirements.

 

Do the scouts accept tax dollars? If not, they are allowed to make and enforce any rules they wish, as a private organization.

[Spy Car]

Why try to teach Christians about religion when you are a non-believer and seem so angry about it?

 

Every spiritual person is not a Protestant, you know. Many Protestant sects (sorry if this is the wrong noun) do not believe that everyone besides them goes to hell.

Neither do Roman Catholics. Possibly Muslims do, but I'm not familiar with many Muslim beliefs.

 

Why do you keep bringing up paganism? I don't think today's Christians are very concerned about pagans. I'm Buddhist, so maybe it's just not my fight.

 

I kinda wanted to discuss girls in boy scouts, since it is a big change and new, but I guess this is now another BSA vs atheism thread argument to skip.

 

I'm not angry and would prefer you not project things on to me about which you have no knowledge.

 

I'm also not trying to teach reformed Christians about their faith, I'm simply pointing out why there should be no special reason to exclude non-religious children from scouts from a reformed Christian theological perspective since that is the expressed faith position of my interlocutor. 

 

I bring up paganism because the early scouting movement was infused with pagan spirituality in the form of nature worship. That's clear in the historical record. And the beliefs of the early scouting movement in "spirituality" keep being raised by others. It just isn't type of "spirituality" they may think it was.

 

I'm not stopping you from discussing anything. Feel free to make your own posts and don't feel obliged to respond to mine if that suits you better. OK?

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

I think that lying for six or seven years every time he says the oath does not show good citizenship. The scout troops and leaders should abide by the rules, making them clear to the scouts so they are not denied the Eagle Scout award after having worked toward it. It's on the scout leader if the boy ready to get his Eagle award is denied because he was not informed about all the requirements.

 

Do the scouts accept tax dollars? If not, they are allowed to make and enforce any rules they wish, as a private organization.

 

We are of like-mind that lying while taking oaths doesn't foster good citizenship or good moral values. Nor does leaders (or parent) in encouringing such actions.

 

Bill

[Daria]

I think that lying for six or seven years every time he says the oath does not show good citizenship. The scout troops and leaders should abide by the rules, making them clear to the scouts so they are not denied the Eagle Scout award after having worked toward it. It's on the scout leader if the boy ready to get his Eagle award is denied because he was not informed about all the requirements.

 

Do the scouts accept tax dollars? If not, they are allowed to make and enforce any rules they wish, as a private organization.

 

I think you missed my point.  My child, for many years, could have taken the scout oath in good faith because he did believe.  He started out sharing my beliefs, and then went through a period he was entranced by Rick Riordan and believed in the gods of Ancient Egypt. There was also a time when he believed simultaneously in Jesus and reincarnation. Apparently any of those beliefs would be fine with BSA.  It's only at 16 and 17 that he began to mature into a more adult perspective and decided that he didn't believe at all.  Had he been a boy scout, he would have needed to either lie or leave at that point.  

 

Scouts meet and advertise through public schools.  I am not aware that they pay market rates for those privileges.  So, unless I'm wrong they are accepting tax dollars, or at least benefiting from them.

[Rosika]

 

I kinda wanted to discuss girls in boy scouts, since it is a big change and new, but I guess this is now another BSA vs atheism thread argument to skip.

 

Me, too. :thumbdown:

 

This is especially unfortunate given that this was predicted a few pages ago, and respectfully requested be taken to a separate thread. 

[DawnM]

Me, too. :thumbdown:

 

This is especially unfortunate given that this was predicted a few pages ago, and respectfully requested be taken to a separate thread. 

 

Some people need everything to be about their own personal crusade and can't let go of that bone.

 

It is indeed unfortunate.

[Daria]

Me, too. :thumbdown:

 

This is especially unfortunate given that this was predicted a few pages ago, and respectfully requested be taken to a separate thread. 

 

Given that the people who requested it are board members, they could easily have started that thread.

[Rosika]

Given that the people who requested it are board members, they could easily have started that thread.

 

 

I mean, sure, they could have. But that's, like, ... silly.  :lol: "Hey! Thanks for crashing my bar mitzvah! Please stay with my guests while I run next door to get a party of your own set up for you !"

 

It's a reasonable request given that this issue will pop up for months/years to come and it'd be great to search for the thread "Boy Scouts open up to girls" to keep an on going conversation. And the issue of atheism and BSA is equally important and deserving of its own thread. Certainly the BSA is in an era of change, and who knows what population is next to make their "cut" - a thread titled appropriate to that line of debate would be equally great to find. 

 

Look, it's a free country. That's why I chose to move here!  :D And also why I expressed a shared opinion on the direction of this thread. We can agree to disagree on that, but I hope we can agree that both conversations are deserving of their own threads under relevant titles to make sure the conversations can be easily found in the future because both warrant on going dialogue on both sides. 

[Daria]

I mean, sure, they could have. But that's, like, ... silly.  :lol: "Hey! Thanks for crashing my bar mitzvah! Please stay with my guests while I run next door to get a party of your own set up for you !"

 

It's a reasonable request given that this issue will pop up for months/years to come and it'd be great to search for the thread "Boy Scouts open up to girls" to keep an on going conversation. And the issue of atheism and BSA is equally important and deserving of its own thread. Certainly the BSA is in an era of change, and who knows what population is next to make their "cut" - a thread titled appropriate to that line of debate would be equally great to find. 

 

Look, it's a free country. That's why I chose to move here!  :D And also why I expressed a shared opinion on the direction of this thread. We can agree to disagree on that, but I hope we can agree that both conversations are deserving of their own threads under relevant titles to make sure the conversations can be easily found in the future because both warrant on going dialogue on both sides. 

 

I don't see how responding to comments about who is or isn't included in Boy Scouts, on a thread about changes in who is included in Boy Scouts, is at all like showing up uninvited at a Bar Mitzvah (an ironic example, since Bar Mitzvahs are held as part of religious ceremonies and are thus open to anyone in the community, including atheists.  Having said that, I'm guessing you actually meant the party after a Bar Mitzvah). 

 

I don't see a need for a separate conversation.  I don't think the two topics are as separate as you seem to think.  As you say, this is an era of change for BSA, and discussing why they'd make one change (admitting girls) but not another (admitting atheists, as well as allowing scouts who beliefs change as they mature to stay in scouts) is closely related to this topic.  Given that this change seems to be motivated in part by declining enrollment, discussing causes for that decline also seems appropriate. 

 

If you feel strongly that there should be two threads, then start one.  I don't feel strongly, so I won't bother doing so, but I'd probably participate there if there was one. 

[Rosika]

Hey...how about start a spin off thread regarding BSA and their exclusionary policies so the rest of us could debate/discuss BSA accepting girls?  I would like to know how other councils are implementing the changes and when and not derail this thread with a side topic that deserves it's own thread.  Thanks.

 

 

I don't see how responding to comments about who is or isn't included in Boy Scouts, on a thread about changes in who is included in Boy Scouts, is at all like showing up uninvited at a Bar Mitzvah (an ironic example, since Bar Mitzvahs are held as part of religious ceremonies and are thus open to anyone in the community, including atheists.  Having said that, I'm guessing you actually meant the party after a Bar Mitzvah). 

 

I don't see a need for a separate conversation.  I don't think the two topics are as separate as you seem to think.  As you say, this is an era of change for BSA, and discussing why they'd make one change (admitting girls) but not another (admitting atheists, as well as allowing scouts who beliefs change as they mature to stay in scouts) is closely related to this topic.  Given that this change seems to be motivated in part by declining enrollment, discussing causes for that decline also seems appropriate. 

 

If you feel strongly that there should be two threads, then start one.  I don't feel strongly, so I won't bother doing so, but I'd probably participate there if there was one. 

 

Well, the title alludes to a thread about a specific group that has been excluded, and not general exclusionary policies or a different specific and excluded group.

 

Okay, "party after the bar mitzvah" then. I'm guessing what I actually meant is worth pointing out despite you getting the point. LOL

 

I don't follow the logic of opening a separate thread to discuss what this thread was designed to discuss. I mean, what would I say in the OP to keep the thread "pure"? Something along the lines of what Sandwalker is quoted to have requested above?  :confused1: But that is neither here, nor there. As was predicted a few pages ago, this thread will derail into a few voices convincing nobody to see things their ways about a topic unrelated to the original intent of the thread.

 

And I include myself in that now that I've dedicated more posts to this side conversation with you, than I have the original topic.  :glare: Time for me to go play somewhere else. LOL

[poppy]

It's a shame there wasn't a thread started by the people who requested another thread get started blah blah blah.

 

Just say what you want to say, folk.   Meta is boring.

 

I have a boy scout and a  girl scout.  My boy is an atheist.  My girl  isn't.  Weird world!

I think my son is changing his mind, though, he is talking a lot about what happened before the big bang.  I love homeschooling his curious mind.

 

I personally will keep a foot in both groups. I love camping with girl scouts.  All girls, not parents, is a whole different vibe and it's marvelous.

[Spy Car]

I mean, sure, they could have. But that's, like, ... silly.  :lol: "Hey! Thanks for crashing my bar mitzvah! Please stay with my guests while I run next door to get a party of your own set up for you !"

 

It's a reasonable request given that this issue will pop up for months/years to come and it'd be great to search for the thread "Boy Scouts open up to girls" to keep an on going conversation. And the issue of atheism and BSA is equally important and deserving of its own thread. Certainly the BSA is in an era of change, and who knows what population is next to make their "cut" - a thread titled appropriate to that line of debate would be equally great to find. 

 

Look, it's a free country. That's why I chose to move here!  :D And also why I expressed a shared opinion on the direction of this thread. We can agree to disagree on that, but I hope we can agree that both conversations are deserving of their own threads under relevant titles to make sure the conversations can be easily found in the future because both warrant on going dialogue on both sides. 

 

More like, we'd like to have a Bar Mitzvah...but the NAZIs have decided Jews are not allowed to rent the hall. But let's not discuss it. Or talk about it somewhere else.

 

Oy gevalt.

 

Bill

[Sandwalker]

Godwin's law--in all caps, no less

[scoutingmom]

So, back to the original topic.... It doesn't sound to me like BSA has gone far enough.

 

Anyone have kids go to Many Point Scout Camp? It is a BSA scout camp. Did my daughter going the last couple of years cause any issues? Just curious....

 

Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

[8circles]

 

I don't follow the logic of opening a separate thread to discuss what this thread was designed to discuss. I mean, what would I say in the OP to keep the thread "pure"? Something along the lines of what Sandwalker is quoted to have requested above?  :confused1: But that is neither here, nor there. As was predicted a few pages ago, this thread will derail into a few voices convincing nobody to see things their ways about a topic unrelated to the original intent of the thread.

 

And I include myself in that now that I've dedicated more posts to this side conversation with you, than I have the original topic.  :glare: Time for me to go play somewhere else. LOL

 

Nobody told you to do that. That would actually be pretty nonsensical.

 

If you cared enough about the supposed hijack that you thought it should have it's own thread, you should start that thread. 

[Bluegoat]

I think you're being highly presumptuous. 

 

Nazi "romanticism" centering around nature worship, "spiritualism," and folk-mysticism comes out of the same "spiritual movement" that inspired Baden-Powell. The roots of scoutings spirituality came from a paganesque form of nature worship. 

 

Now, after Baden-Powell's racism and affection for fascism is revealed you say his views don't matter when upthread you pointed to him and his spiritual beliefs as a bedrock of the scouting movement. Which is it?

 

I do believe there was a paganesque belief in wood-spirts, fairies, and the like that was mixed into a generalized nature worship in the mind of Baden-Powell, along with his nationalist and racist ideals. I don't deny these things are part of Scouting's heritage. They certainly are.

 

But you are the one pointing to these anachronisms of the past to justify bigotry today. I don't think you are on solid ground here.

 

We can do better than the moral example of Baden-Powell. A lot better.

 

Bill

 

You're shifting the ground here like a bleeding earthquake.

 

I said that you were factually wrong to say that religion was not an foundational element in scouting.  I notice you aren't claiming that now.

 

There is nothing to say that modern scouting needs to include that idea.  Just like they don't need to believe each thing it's founder did.  They could change that.

 

That is not something new being imposed on the movement that is in contrast to it's "real" purpose.  It's as much part of the concept of the movement as woodcraft is.  (which they could also drop, if they wanted to.)

[Spy Car]

You're shifting the ground here like a bleeding earthquake.

 

I said that you were factually wrong to say that religion was not an foundational element in scouting.  I notice you aren't claiming that now.

 

There is nothing to say that modern scouting needs to include that idea.  Just like they don't need to believe each thing it's founder did.  They could change that.

 

That is not something new being imposed on the movement that is in contrast to it's "real" purpose.  It's as much part of the concept of the movement as woodcraft is.  (which they could also drop, if they wanted to.)

 

I never said "spirituality" wasn't part of Baden-Powell's philosophical position, although it wasn't strictly religious so much as mixed with naturalism and pageanesque elements of romanticism, along with his imperialism, racism, embrace of fascism and homophobia (despite many modern scholars including Baden-Powell was himself homosexual).

 

Baden-Powell's ideals don't justify bigotry in the modern age. You keep bring up the historical record of Baden-Powel, and the only "earthquake" here is your shifting ground on whether his strange ideas matter.

 

If they do then BSA shouldn't allow gays and they should reaffirm support for fascist movements like Hitler's and Mussolini's as baden=Powell did. No one* would argue for that, eh?

 

Bill

[shawthorne44]

You obviously didn't read my post.

 

Yes, they are exclusionary.

 

No, there are no commonly shared values among those who are included and, in fact. many believe the values of those who are included will damn them to hell.

 

So the exclusionary practices toward the non-religious are capricious and an example of bigotry.

 

Bill

 

 

So, because people don't believe precisely the same thing, they aren't allowed to congregate based on what they do believe in common?   And wishing to do so, makes them bigots?    That makes zero sense.  

[Spy Car]

So, because people don't believe precisely the same thing, they aren't allowed to congregate based on what they do believe in common?   And wishing to do so, makes them bigots?    That makes zero sense.  

 

I think the premise is a false one. Many of included groups have nothing in common and --in fact--believe the spiritual positions of the others will damn them to hell.

 

So the "common beliefs" strikes me as a pure fiction.

 

Bill

[shawthorne44]

I think the premise is a false one. Many of included groups have nothing in common and --in fact--believe the spiritual positions of the others will damn them to hell.

 

So the "common beliefs" strikes me as a pure fiction.

 

Bill

 

So, what you are saying is that since a Greek Orthodox person thinks that a Baptist person will go to Hell, that they aren't allowed to congregate together as Christians or as monotheists?   

 

(I'm not picking on either Greek Orthodox or Baptist people.   Those were just examples to came to mind from my personal experience)

[Serenade]

My young Scout is bummed about the inclusion of girls, and pointed out that it is supposed to be "boy-led," but nobody asked the boys. 

 

Good point.  

 

I wonder why nobody bothered to ask the boys?  

Edited October 16, 2017 by Serenade

[ktgrok]

I think the premise is a false one. Many of included groups have nothing in common and --in fact--believe the spiritual positions of the others will damn them to hell.

 

So the "common beliefs" strikes me as a pure fiction.

 

Bill

 

The thing they have in common is a belief in God. Hence, again, the number of interfaith thanksgiving services for instance. 

[Spy Car]

The thing they have in common is a belief in God. Hence, again, the number of interfaith thanksgiving services for instance. 

 

This is not so. People are allowed in BSA who are "spiritual" but do not believe in "God."

 

And many in BSA would vociferously deny people of other faiths believe in the same god they do.

 

The argument there are common religious beliefs that bind members is completely false.

 

Bill

[Julie Smith]

"The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God."

 

Considering the above line, wouldn't BSA be teaching bigotry? 

[Daria]

The thing they have in common is a belief in God. Hence, again, the number of interfaith thanksgiving services for instance.

And somehow they hold those services without excluding atheists.

[Spy Car]

I read a story the other day drawn from the Chassidic Jewish tradition that was collected by the philosopher Martin Buber whose wisdom I wish was appreciated by the BSA (and those who support their ongoing bigotry).

 

The setting involves a Master who is teaching his students that God created everything in the world to be appreciated, since everything is here to teach us a lesson.

 

One clever student asks “What lesson can we learn from atheists? Why did God create them?â€

The Master responds “God created atheists to teach us the most important lesson of them all – the lesson of true compassion.

 

You see, when an atheist performs an act of charity, visits someone who is sick, helps someone in need, and cares for the world, he is not doing so because of some religious teaching.

 

He does not believe that God commanded him to perform this act. In fact, he does not believe in God at all, so his acts are based on an inner sense of morality.

 

And look at the kindness he can bestow upon others simply because he feels it to be right.â€

 

“This means,†the Master continued “that when someone reaches out to you for help, you should never say ‘I pray that God will help you.’ Instead for the moment, you should become an atheist, imagine that there is no God who can help, and say 'I will help you.’â€

 

Bill