MrsWeasley Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 My partner and I don't have a will made, because we can't agree on a guardian. He really wants his parents named guardian. He wants our kids raised in a home with liberal politics and religious views. We approve of their diet. My kids really dislike his father, who was an active alcoholic when his kids were little and never really learned to handle young kids. When my husband was sixteen, they kicked him out of the house, though they later reconciled when my oldest was a toddler. They have never apologized for it. It's this point that I can't get past: if they would do it to their son, I don't trust that they wouldn't do it to their grandchildren. My husband has forgiven them, and he sees my fear of them doing this as highly offensive. I've given a few alternatives whom I consider way more suitable, but my partner doesn't. We've been in gridlock about this for years, and it's become so contentious that we can't really even talk about it calmly anymore. I go back and forth about it, as I know one of my preferred choices would probably fight for custody, as they have unsolicited asked that we name them guardians, and given that this choice provides care for my children a couple of times a week, I think they have a fair chance of winning. I worry, though, about not having anything established in writing, and then I think perhaps it would be better to let my partner's choice be established than have no plan. If you were me, what would you do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Rosie_0801 Posted June 24, 2015 Popular Post Share Posted June 24, 2015 I'd continue disagreeing. And I'd write my own will. 63 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 I'd continue disagreeing. And I'd write my own will. Yes. Get it done. If DH cares enough about this he will write his own, too, and then you can have a real battle, but in the meantime (or if he doesn't care as much as he seems to once the job is done) your children are provided for. 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greta Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 I'd continue disagreeing. And I'd write my own will. Yes! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocassie Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Maybe appoint co-guardians. I"m not sure how it works or even if it's possible but it could be a good compromise. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneezyone Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 DH and I have two guardians named for our children. We requested that one person serve as the financial custodian while another serves as the physical custodian, with visitation allowances for the financial caretaker, for similar reasons. It allows for checks and balances. In your case, I would seek counseling. 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Have kids -- will travel Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Personally, a lingering disagreement in a marriage is to me a sign of problems in the marriage, not the importance of who could presumably care for your children in the unlikely case that neither of you are able. In a good marriage, both partners put the happiness and well-being of the other partner ahead of their own, meaning that in disagreements, you work hard to see the other's perspective. I'd recommend marriage counseling to work out the deeper issues here. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brehon Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Appointing guardians for my kids is something I consider a hill. I'd write my own will so that *something* is in place. Whay dh and I did was to not only name primary guardians, but also back-up guardians. We also specifically listed who we *didn't* want and why. Depending on your state's laws this can help the judge make his/her decision by taking your thoughts into account. This doesn't mean that your wishes would be honored, just that you give the judge more information to work woth. I can't imagine the legal nightmare if both of you should die together and there are two "competing" wills. Would the one with the later date be the one honored? That's how it generally works, though that usually applies to the individual's will. No clue what the legal precedent is if each parent has his/her own will and they don't agree about something so important as their kids' guardians. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marbel Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I would make an appointment with a lawyer who can discuss suitability of various people as guardians. We had a terrible time choosing guardians for our kids, as neither my husband nor I had anyone in our families we wanted them to go to. The lawyer helped us sort it out. We chose someone we hadn't even thought of before, and they agreed. If we hadn't talked to the lawyer we would probably still be fighting about it. It was worth the time and the legal fees to get that done. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MinivanMom Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 There is no way I would ever appoint a guardian who had a history of substance abuse and kicking out their own teenage children. I wouldn't appoint them as co-guardians. I wouldn't make them financial custodians. I wouldn't make them executors. No way, no how. Is this the fil who was so harsh with your son over chess and made him cry (or am I confusing you with someone else)? I would strongly suggest that you and your husband visit a therapist (and a lawyer) together to sort it out. I would not draw up a will without informing your husband, but I would be wary of the possibility that he could draw one up without your knowledge. 23 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneezyone Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Also, some folks are just not good with littles and your choice of guardian may change as your kids get older and need different things. I have one family member that would be great with littles but would be bowled over by teens. I have another who is FANTASTIC at guiding teens and young adults with just the right amount of tough love. Neither of them was chosen as a guardian tho because they are both getting on in years. This is not a decision that has to be fixed, set in stone forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefgazer Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Your concerns are completely justified, so no, I would not agree to them as guardians. You should be able to find a suitable alternative that you can both agree on, yes? If not, I would do as Rosie suggests. My partner and I don't have a will made, because we can't agree on a guardian. He really wants his parents named guardian. He wants our kids raised in a home with liberal politics and religious views. We approve of their diet. My kids really dislike his father, who was an active alcoholic when his kids were little and never really learned to handle young kids. When my husband was sixteen, they kicked him out of the house, though they later reconciled when my oldest was a toddler. They have never apologized for it. It's this point that I can't get past: if they would do it to their son, I don't trust that they wouldn't do it to their grandchildren. My husband has forgiven them, and he sees my fear of them doing this as highly offensive. I've given a few alternatives whom I consider way more suitable, but my partner doesn't. We've been in gridlock about this for years, and it's become so contentious that we can't really even talk about it calmly anymore. I go back and forth about it, as I know one of my preferred choices would probably fight for custody, as they have unsolicited asked that we name them guardians, and given that this choice provides care for my children a couple of times a week, I think they have a fair chance of winning. I worry, though, about not having anything established in writing, and then I think perhaps it would be better to let my partner's choice be established than have no plan. If you were me, what would you do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I've seen it recommended that guardians be chosen from your generation (siblings, friends, cousins around your age). There a very practical reason: you want to appoint a guardian who is likely to remain healthy and live to see your dc into adulthood. Since grandparents are a generation older they are less likely to remain healthy enough to be guardians through adukthood for grandchildren. That does not mean they won't. It is just less likely. I wouldn't go with your dh's father, based on what you described anyway, but you could push the reasonable argument based on age. As another poster suggested, my dh and I have two guardians, one for issues and the other custodial. 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 How old are your kids? I changed guardians three times because my son's life changed over time. When he was little, it was A, When we became Orthodox and were homeschooling, it was B. When my son was 15, he started attending the same school as A's family, so we went back to A. Each time, it was to cause the lease disruption to his life. I have a friend whose parents were killed in a car crash when he was 13. HE was allowed to choose his guardian at that age. It didn't matter what his parents had stated. You might ask a lawyer about that. I'm sorry this is contentious. But from what you have said, I would be concerned. And of course, the condition only kicks in if you both die at the same time. I have friends who take separate planes to the same family vacation destinations, just as a safeguard. :0) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RKWAcademy Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 There is no way I would ever appoint a guardian who had a history of substance abuse and kicking out their own teenage children. I wouldn't appoint them as co-guardians. I wouldn't make them financial custodians. I wouldn't make them executors. No way, no how. Is this the fil who was so harsh with your son over chess and made him cry (or am I confusing you with someone else)? I would strongly suggest that you and your husband visit a therapist (and a lawyer) together to sort it out. I would not draw up a will without informing your husband, but I would be wary of the possibility that he could draw one up without your knowledge. This! But I would make my own will. But no way would they get my children. Your momma instincts have to rule here. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-rap Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 No, I would not. I'm sorry you're in a relationship -- though it may be generally great! -- where one person does not have "veto" power in important decisions like this. I cannot even fathom that. So you can't sit together and each list your top three choices and try and find one that both of you approve of, even if it's your second choices? I wonder if you could sit down with a mediator who could walk you both through this decision (and talk some sense into your partner ! :)). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris in VA Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 If it were me, I would ask a counselor to help us listen to each other. Then we could pick a third alternative, after we really heard each other's concerns. Or pick mine. Because I would not chose your fil. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alte Veste Academy Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 My kids really dislike his father This alone would be enough for me to say no. If they lose you, they should go to someone well liked, someone who will be a comfort to them. Otherwise it's double the sorrow for them. The alcoholism and history with dad just put an exclamation on the decision. 18 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seasider Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Wait, is this really the chess critic? That's a huge insight and big red flag for me. Please tell us if we are confusing you with someone else. Is your husband's reason for this possibly, undisclosed, approval seeking? Is there some lingering doubt that he was responsible for being kicked out as a teenager? Could he be viewing this as some sort of peace offering to his parents? 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephanieZ Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 LOL, it hadn't even occurred to me to just write your OWN will until the smarter ladies above suggested it. I think that's the perfect solution. Just go get your own documents in place nice and tidy. Make the appointment for yourself ASAP, get it done. Ideally, mention it to your husband sooner rather than later, just so it doesn't seem sneakier than it is. The chances of you BOTH predeceasing your kids are slim, FWIW. I know a couple who regularly went on just-them trips but always flew on different flights and met up at the destination . . . just in case. (They had 5 kids and, I am guessing, no family they'd trust with their kids.) Getting a counselor's input would be great. That's more of a marital issue, though, and I don't like to go there. In the case of the estate documents issue, I think simply doing your own will ASAP would be a great temporary solution. (If he doesn't have a will, then presumably yours would direct the kids' guardianship.) Another option is to leave the kids' guardianship to one set of family, but either leave a substantial sum (say 50k) or, if you don't have spare assets, then get a cheap term life insurance policy for 50-200k, and leave that to another kids' trust (or directly to the other folks if you trust them sufficiently), with the OTHER family as the trustees of that trust. That allows the non-custodial loved ones to have sufficient funds to ensure frequent visitation and/or "rescue" the kids at any point. I had done something like this when my kids were young and we were designating same-generation family as the guardians and trustees for our kids, but wanted to ensure that my mom had ready access to plentiful funds to ensure frequent visits/trips with her and/or to make it easy for her to provide financial things in case their guardians weren't doing something Mom wanted them to do. (The guardians would have had more than sufficient funds for supporting the kids . . . so this extra 100k or so was just really an insurance policy to make sure Mom could spend 5-10k/yr to finance plenty of flights for visits, etc.) Mom has now passed away, and she never would have really *needed* this money, but I wanted to be sure it was EASY for her to visit and spoil the grandkids if they were living across the country (as they likely would have had our will have come into force before now. Our oldest is now an adult, and we are redrafting our estate documents at this time to ensure the kids would not have to move if we were to die.) FWIW, if there are two or more sides who might fight for custody, then $$ available for the side you WANT to have the kids is probably important. So, I'd consider that planning when making my documents. I'd expect to need 100k at least to fight a big custody fight. More if the other side has deep pockets. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aiden Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I also wouldn't choose your father-in-law, both because of his history and because of his age. If your husband insists and you do not feel that you have a religious or moral obligation to submit to his decision, then you could make your own will naming the guardians of your preference. Your husband still is free to make a will naming the guardians of his choice. In either case, if one of you dies and the other lives, the children will go to the other parent. If that parent then dies, the last surviving parent's will is the one that controls. The only situation in which it gets dicey is if you both die due to mutual catastrophe, and it becomes difficult to tell who died first. Many spouses (including my husband and me) have a clause that states which person is presumed to have died first--in our case, we leave instructions to assume or act as if I died first, so my husband's will controls. It doesn't really matter for us, because our wills have all the same provisions, but if yours have different provisions, then you have to decide whether to include such a provision and in favor of which of your wills' provisions. Without it, you could have two potential guardians each suing for custody. Of course, if it's important enough to both of you to fight to the bitter end (even after death, if you die in a mutual catastrophe), then it may be worthwhile to you not to include such a statement. We also have separate people slated for physical custody and for management of financial assets until our daughter is grown. The people who are our best choices for raising our daughter are not particularly good with money. However, we have another friend who is very good with money, a man of integrity, but not so great with kids. We assigned each role to the individuals who would fulfill it best. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoobie Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I would not agree to those people as described to be guardians. I'd get my own will written in the interim, and I would get advised on how DH lacking a will would affect things in my state. Here (based on my understanding from our estate attorney and long ago law school), if DH and I died simultaneously, the state presumes the husband outlives the wife. (Hmm, wonder how gay marriage will/has chang/ed this?) Wife's estate passes to husband's. Husband's controls. Without a will, everything would be probated. Temporary guardians would be appointed. The judge likely would look at the wife's will as guidance, but it wouldn't control. Guardian should be someone the children likes. Without substance abuse issues or personality disorders preferably. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lllll Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 tmi 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Even if they were amazing angelic perfect parents, unless they are young and you had children very young, grandparents should be backup guardians AT MOST. They could have a stroke and be disabled before your kids get out of high school! Also, younger guardians will have the time to absorb the financial burden. We've been named guardians or godparents for several friends' children. Almost all of which chose an aunt of the child as primary guardians, and us as backup, NOT the parents, for exactly the reasons I named. And in those cases all of them have loving relationships with their parents. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephanieZ Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 My dh and I had ours chosen before we went to see the lawyer. The lawyer pointed out that it's good to separate the financial aspect from the guardianship, so we chose another person for that. Then, later, when circumstances changed, we changed all of it. It was very helpful to talk to a good lawyer about all of it. At that point, our oldest ds living at home was old enough to become the legal guardian so we set everything up so they could all continue living in the house and hs'ing. And ds had control of the finances. That was the best arrangement of all for our particular situation. In your case, I wouldn't leave kids with the fil either. Maybe it would help your dh to hear it from a lawyer. Our lawyer didn't just sit and listen. He definitely offered opinions when appropriate. I really liked that. And dh listened to him, too. Will your dh even go talk to a lawyer about all of it? It's well worth the money. Oh, and we even added a section naming those we did NOT want to have anything to do with the kids and the finances as suggested by the lawyer. I've been thinking of this, and I'm curious, how old was your ds when you first designated him as guardian, etc? Our oldest is just 18, and I've been thinking about this very issue as we are redrafting our documents. I'm leaning towards putting her as legal guardian, but putting the vast majority of the assets into a trust with an outside trustee. (It'd be a lot of $$, as we have lots of insurance. . .). It just seems dangerous (mainly to being victimized by someone unscrupulous) to have a 20 year old in charge of millions of dollars . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TechWife Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Personally, a lingering disagreement in a marriage is to me a sign of problems in the marriage, not the importance of who could presumably care for your children in the unlikely case that neither of you are able. In a good marriage, both partners put the happiness and well-being of the other partner ahead of their own, meaning that in disagreements, you work hard to see the other's perspective. I'd recommend marriage counseling to work out the deeper issues here. I think you are reading an awful lot into this - there isn't enough information provided to make such a global statement. How long have you been married? I'm going on 22 years this fall. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lllll Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 tmi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waa510 Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 We have the same argument for our own reasons. We have a more dysfunctional family pool of applicants than other people do, I think. Seeing this play out in my sil's childhood has helped my Dh reconsider a bit on some of his stubborn points. I agree with the poster who mentioned splitting the financial guardian and the physical guardian of the kids. Also, this may sound obvious, but make sure that financial person doesn't have a gambling and/or drinking problem. My sil's $$ was all whittled away by the guy who was given access to the money. She was left with nothing and is still scrapping by to get an education in her late-20s. She's really struggled emotionally as well for feeling incredibly betrayed. I don't think using grandparents is a wise choice b/c health can go downhill so quickly!! My mom's health now vs. 5 years ago is strikingly different. I also wouldn't want to use your fil for the reasons you mentioned. I think a counselor to help you both see this from a non-biased perspective would help. I say this as someone who still hasn't figured out who should care for our kids. I feel a teensy bit guilty about it but I honestly feel like one of my best friends who is incredibly brilliant and caring for kids already, would be the best option over family. I've mentioned it offhand and she's always said she would. :) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausmumof3 Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 No way! And I agree that unless you had kids super young, grandparents aren't the ideal guardians due to age. I would get some kind of will in place independently then look for counselling to help you work through it together. It could be a pretty big thing for your dh. He may still in his mind minimising the childhood trauma and agreeing with you would feel too much like acknowledgment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seasider Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I would not agree to those people as described to be guardians. I'd get my own will written in the interim, and I would get advised on how DH lacking a will would affect things in my state. Here (based on my understanding from our estate attorney and long ago law school), if DH and I died simultaneously, the state presumes the husband outlives the wife. (Hmm, wonder how gay marriage will/has chang/ed this?) Wife's estate passes to husband's. Husband's controls. Without a will, everything would be probated. Temporary guardians would be appointed. The judge likely would look at the wife's will as guidance, but it wouldn't control. Guardian should be someone the children likes. Without substance abuse issues or personality disorders preferably. This is interesting. The parents of a friend were in a rollover crash, both died at the scene. The medical examiner had the say of who died first, based on the nature of injury. It was decided that the wife most likely lived longer than the husband, albeit by moments. His estate passed to her, then her will prevailed. I have no idea which would have been a better "outcome" for the children (they were all adults at the time). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MomatHWTK Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 DH and I each have our own document. Most of the language is in agreement, but we were free to name whoever we wanted in our documents. Absent a fight over you actually choosing someone else in the written document, there should be no reason you cannot each execute a will and say what you want in it. The disagreement between the two of you would be a personal matter to resolve. KWIM? ETA: We initially did split the financial trustee from the physical guardian but have now combined them as our first choice for guardian has changed. In general I think splitting the responsibilities is a good plan- checks and balances. You can add whatever language you want to the standard documents most lawyers will prepare. If I were concerned about someone's fitness as a guardian. I would put in a clause to the effect that nonwithstanding any appointment in the will, any guardian must pass a fitness exam and be granted court approval. This complicates and could very well lead to litigation at the time of selection, but would allow a third party to pass judgment on the selection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMamaBird Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Do his parents WANT to be the guardians? If his dad was a less than stellar parent he may not relish the idea of doing it again. We are very conservative. However, I'd rather have my liberal SIL and BIL who would love and care for them be the guardians than someone who shared my religious and political views who would be lukewarm parents. Love trumps politics every time. 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmrich Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I do not think grandparents should be guardians; they should be grandparents. I am sure it is too late to use that in your disagreement, but it was I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I think you got your advice and maybe then some. It doesn't sound to me like this is a sign of a bad partnership/marriage or like you don't have power to say no. It sounds like you disagree. But you need to stand firm. And, honestly, he needs to back down. You need to pick someone you can both live with. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I wouldn't agree to it. In our case, we have someone in my family as physical guardians and someone in dh's family as monetary guardians. It was a good compromise. As our dds became older we also took their input into account and changed some things. In our case, a grandparent is a physical guardian (our dds' choice) and I feel good about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danestress Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Personally, a lingering disagreement in a marriage is to me a sign of problems in the marriage, not the importance of who could presumably care for your children in the unlikely case that neither of you are able. In a good marriage, both partners put the happiness and well-being of the other partner ahead of their own, meaning that in disagreements, you work hard to see the other's perspective. I'd recommend marriage counseling to work out the deeper issues here. I think sometimes it's very healthy to admit that you don't agree, and that sometimes you can talk, listen, and love very well, and still disagree. That may not be the case here, but I do think that saying there are deep issues when people don't eventually see eye to eye is questionable. I can comprise on all kinds of things, but probably would not agree to a guardian of children who I found unacceptable. I would probably just make my will my way and let him make his will his way and pray for the best. It might end up being a judge's call, but I wouldn't bypass that possibility in order to pick someone I would never agree to otherwise. And I am not one to believe that mothers always get to dictate these things, so I would certainly try to work with DH and seek help brokering a deal, but ultimately I would have to accept that he gets his own view poInf just as I get mine. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsWeasley Posted June 25, 2015 Author Share Posted June 25, 2015 I would make an appointment with a lawyer who can discuss suitability of various people as guardians. We had a terrible time choosing guardians for our kids, as neither my husband nor I had anyone in our families we wanted them to go to. The lawyer helped us sort it out. We chose someone we hadn't even thought of before, and they agreed. If we hadn't talked to the lawyer we would probably still be fighting about it. It was worth the time and the legal fees to get that done. That's really great to hear that a lawyer could help us make a decision. I definitely assumed we needed to walk into the lawyer's office knowing what we wanted. DH and I have two guardians named for our children. We requested that one person serve as the financial custodian while another serves as the physical custodian, with visitation allowances for the financial caretaker, for similar reasons. It allows for checks and balances. In your case, I would seek counseling. I had never thought of having separate financial and physical custodians, but I know for me, to have those separated would open more possibilities. I'll have to see if my partner might see other (better!) matches if we separated things like that. There is no way I would ever appoint a guardian who had a history of substance abuse and kicking out their own teenage children. I wouldn't appoint them as co-guardians. I wouldn't make them financial custodians. I wouldn't make them executors. No way, no how. Is this the fil who was so harsh with your son over chess and made him cry (or am I confusing you with someone else)? I would strongly suggest that you and your husband visit a therapist (and a lawyer) together to sort it out. I would not draw up a will without informing your husband, but I would be wary of the possibility that he could draw one up without your knowledge. This is the FIL who whooped my kid at chess. How old are your kids? I changed guardians three times because my son's life changed over time. When he was little, it was A, When we became Orthodox and were homeschooling, it was B. When my son was 15, he started attending the same school as A's family, so we went back to A. Each time, it was to cause the lease disruption to his life. I have a friend whose parents were killed in a car crash when he was 13. HE was allowed to choose his guardian at that age. It didn't matter what his parents had stated. You might ask a lawyer about that. I'm sorry this is contentious. But from what you have said, I would be concerned. And of course, the condition only kicks in if you both die at the same time. I have friends who take separate planes to the same family vacation destinations, just as a safeguard. :0) I have an 8 year old, a 5 year old, and a 1.5 year old. At least at this age, I don't think any of them are mature enough to choose their own guardians, and I also have a strong preference for them all to stay together. Wait, is this really the chess critic? That's a huge insight and big red flag for me. Please tell us if we are confusing you with someone else. Is your husband's reason for this possibly, undisclosed, approval seeking? Is there some lingering doubt that he was responsible for being kicked out as a teenager? Could he be viewing this as some sort of peace offering to his parents? I definitely think he sees himself as somewhat responsible, even as we've talked repeatedly that there's nothing any our kids could do where we'd abandon them like that, I think he feels guilty about how much of a mess he was as a teen that he lets them off easy. No way! And I agree that unless you had kids super young, grandparents aren't the ideal guardians due to age. I would get some kind of will in place independently then look for counselling to help you work through it together. It could be a pretty big thing for your dh. He may still in his mind minimising the childhood trauma and agreeing with you would feel too much like acknowledgment. We did have our kids pretty young. When we just had one kid, I kind of waffled on whether my parents were too old, as they will retire around the age my eldest reaches the age of majority. Having a kid almost seven years younger, though, pushed them into the too old category for me, and my partner's parents are even older. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsWeasley Posted June 25, 2015 Author Share Posted June 25, 2015 Do his parents WANT to be the guardians? If his dad was a less than stellar parent he may not relish the idea of doing it again. We are very conservative. However, I'd rather have my liberal SIL and BIL who would love and care for them be the guardians than someone who shared my religious and political views who would be lukewarm parents. Love trumps politics every time. I have no clue if they would like to be guardians. Part of me would love to have them decline being guardians, so it would be settled for him, but then again, if they agreed, I think it'd be that much harder to refuse to allow them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirty ethel rackham Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 It sounds to me like your husband is confusing about what forgiveness means. You can forgive someone and still feel that they wouldn't be a good choice to parent your children. You can forgive someone and not let them walk all over you all over again. You have a really strong case for NOT having his parents as guardians. If this man has no problem humiliating a child at chess, how good would he be at walking your children through grief. He sounds emotionally abusive. If it were me, not only would I not choose these people as guardians, I would probably limit contact. One thing that was explained to me when we made up our will that naming guardians for our children doesn't always mean that they will get the children if the worst happens. The judge usually honors the parents choice, but not always, especially if there are concerns - either the parties chosen feel they can't honor the request or if evidence is presented that the chosen people are not in the best interests. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annandatje Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MomatHWTK Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Just wanted to add- We are dealing with some issues with a family member and one thing that has helped me is to research the disorders I suspect she has (based on behavior) and also her parents' known disorders. Your DH was a victim as a child, that will color how he interacts with the world and with the abuser. If it is anything like the situation I am facing, your DH will respond in ways that make no sense whatsoever. Doing the research helped me to understand a little bit more about why my family member was acting the way she was and also what her limitations were. In some cases, you aren't going to get a rational reaction. Maybe you can get the person there with therapy, but not always and not if they aren't willing. But at least having done your homework, you can temper your own responses to them and learn to manage your own relationship with the person better. So- the short version: Research how to help and adult child of an alcoholic. :grouphug: 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 If they'd expressed remorse and regret for kicking out your husband at 16 (unless, you know, he was bringing cocaine into the house, in which case, IMO, no regret necessary), it would be different. The lack of remorse and regret for that decision makes me agree with those who say write your own will and keep pushing. That said... if you are talking about drugs... there's nothing any our kids could do where we'd abandon them like that I'd like to see you have a child hide large amounts of drugs in your home and threaten to kill you and ransack your kitchen, like my dad did to his parents. Screw that kid, get out of my house. You can't fix that with love. They fix themselves or they don't. Period. Have you ever had your own 6'2" kid raise a hand at you? Shake you screaming for money? Steal your checks? I really would like to see parents who say "never" go through that for ten years and then hear their stories again. It's easy to say "never". It's hard to live in fear of your own child for ten days, ten months, ten years. And please keep in mind I'm talking about my own father who first hurt my grandparents, then my mom, then my grandparents, then my aunt, and didn't turn around until on his deathbed in his fifties. Do I forgive him? Yes. Do I think his parents were wrong to call the police? Hell no. Giving them a home and a place to ransack for money is enabling. Kicking out is not a cure, but enabling is surely preventing them from seeing the light. A child on drugs is not a child. That is a zombie. I will pay for rehab. I will not let you strip my home and my self of everything worth anything to feed the monster habit in your head. You don't know what that does to you if you haven't lived with an addict. If your DH was at the time an addict, and you haven't lived with an addict, teen, adult, or elderly--I don't think you have the right to judge. It's the worst thing in the world. You all think narcissists are bad? Drug addicts are like narcissists with superpowers because when they want drugs or are high they can do anything. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausmumof3 Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I think sometimes it's very healthy to admit that you don't agree, and that sometimes you can talk, listen, and love very well, and still disagree. That may not be the case here, but I do think that saying there are deep issues when people don't eventually see eye to eye is questionable. I can comprise on all kinds of things, but probably would not agree to a guardian of children who I found unacceptable. I would probably just make my will my way and let him make his will his way and pray for the best. It might end up being a judge's call, but I wouldn't bypass that possibility in order to pick someone I would never agree to otherwise. And I am not one to believe that mothers always get to dictate these things, so I would certainly try to work with DH and seek help brokering a deal, but ultimately I would have to accept that he gets his own view poInf just as I get mine. I don't think it's so much the mother thing here. All other things being equal it could go either way. But in this case there are some serious concerns with the fathers choice so he needs to think about another option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I've been thinking about this. Is your dh still seeking approval from his father? Is he still wanting an apology? It almost seems like he's trying to get more from his relationship with his father and this is another way to say " hey Dad, notice me, love me. " guardianship is not going to do this. If this is the real problem, your dh needs to resolve his issues on his own, not drag the children as some sort of offering. My dad had a problematic relationship with his parents. They did awful stuff, but as bad as your dh experienced. Most of my childhood, we, the whole family, spent weekends with grandparents. This was presented as fun family time. It was not fun. My mom hated it. My siblings and I really don't have fond memories. I watched my dad come the realization one weekend when I was a teen that his parents would never respect him and he would never feel good enough. If your dh is still striving for approval, please watch how you as a family spend time with the il's. Just because you name someone as guardian doesn't mean you need to tell them (it's a good idea, but how would your il's know if you don't?) 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 This is about the kids' best interest, not about your husband's forgiveness of his parents. Yes. The needs of people who are alive take priority. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashfern Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 We went through this. I vetoed all grandparents because of the age factor. We each have one sibling. He wanted his sister and I wanted mine. My sister has no children, doesn't want children, doesn't like children, but is very good with children. His sister has children. It took us several years to come to an agreement to name my sister as guardian. A couple of my kids have food allergies. My sister not only remembers which kids & what they're allergic to, she doesn't have to be reminded. My SIL wouldn't stop eating ice cream when she was nursing her dairy allergic child because she had to have ice cream every night. That was the situation that I pointed out to my DH that she couldn't make a small sacrifice for her own child how could I expect her to sacrifice for my child. He was not happy with my sister but agreed that she would be the better choice. We need to update our wills to include the baby. As soon as our oldest turns 18 we're going to name him guardian of his siblings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anne in CA Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 The very fact that OP's dh feels that his parents have great values to impart on his children and yet those values include kicking out a teen and never apologizing shows that he is not rational about this. Even if he was a horrible mess as a teen I doubt very much that his bad behavior happened in a complete vacuum. Almost certainly their parenting choices significantly contributed to his being a mess and it doesn't sound like they have learned enough to say... "I really wish we could have tried XYZ before throwing you out. We felt really bad about it, we still feel really bad about it." Lack of apology seems to me that they learned nothing from poor parenting choices, and even worse, they probably don't feel bad about hurting their son. FIL appears not to care about the feelings of the grandchildren either. Are they horrible narcissists? Probably not, they probably had their own things to work through, but I wouldn't have them around children more than necessary. OP's dh has childhood issues to work through, and no one can make him. The book Invincible, by Brian F. Martin would be very good for him, but it sounds like he is resistant to seeing his father for who he really is. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 Maybe he needs to ask them. Maybe they don't even want to be guardians. That would solve the whole problem. No way would I ask someone I knew I did not want. What if they said yes? That would just make the situation worse. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StaceyinLA Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I know when my kids' father and I divorced, I made a will. I knew technically he would get the kids if something happened to me, but I knew he wasn't fit to raise them. I made a will and expressed my reasons for choosing someone other than him. I know it would have been a battle, but I felt like at least my kids would have a chance to be with loving family, and at least my wishes were known. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swellmomma Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I have not written my will yet but finally was able to come up with a guardian. In our case while technically my ex would get the teens he would not take them anyway. I don't want the kids split up, and I wanted a family member that would also take their pets, was not opposed to how I have been raising them (even if things would not be the same with that guardian) etc. I ended up choosing my brother, which would be interesting if it happened tomorrow, because he is newly divorced, childless, living in a bachelor apt down town in a big city, it would be a big change for him too. But I know my ex is not suitable, I barely trust my mother with my younger kids for the 2 weeks she has them in the summer (my teens mostly refuse to have anything to do with her anymore), and my sister while the best off financially to support them is so far opposite the spectrum of me, and I can't stand how I see her parenting her only son and don't want my kids growing up that way at all. It was a hard decision and I refused to make one for years. I went through a bad time of depression and the only thing that kept me going was knowing that I had no options for good guardians for my kids. Depending on dd15, I will likely make her guardian of the little ones once she is 18 if I feel she is in a position to be so and name my brother as the back up and financial custodian. Ultimately I have decided I simply won't die before they are all 18, and that will solve everything :) I really should write it out. Even if I don't have it done by a lawyer, something is better than nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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