Confessions of an angry Catholic

[Pod's mum]

Firstly here are some congratulations to put on hold until you are ready to receive them.

 

Sending hugs.

 

From a practical perspective, is there anything you can do to lighten other burdens in your life so this one may be more bearable? It made a huge difference in my life when I hired a homeschooled teenager as a mother's helper three days a week. Since you can't change the fact of the pregnancy, maybe there is something in your life that you can change to make this time easier?

Secondly, a non western friend with an infertile Aussie husband was given a child from her sister and brother-in-law. No IVF, just a child gift which is the way their villiage culture always handled such issues. The official adoption process back into Australia took a while but he was always 'their' child. The child knows his cousins are also his siblings and that that Aunty and Uncle are also his parents. They try to go overseas to visit them most years.

 

Not that I am suggesting you neccessarily gift this child to a sister, but if they live close can they become more involved in sharing the day to day (and overnights too) of your children? Maybe the older ones? Before my sister had her kids she would regularly come and 'steal' mine for the day or overnight. Then I had her's one day a week and occasional overnights.

Go back just one generation and plenty of kids would spend a fair bit of time with relations. Especially if mum really needed it. Could this work in your situation? Yes it would require massive generosity on your part to be willing to share and trust even for a few days at a time.

 

:iagree:

I find it absolutely commendable that Moxie is sticking to her convictions and beliefs, even when it's incredibly difficult for her to do so, and when many people would tell her to ditch the rules and do whatever was most convenient for her.
 

Yep, just because most people don't follow does not mean that those people should become the model.

As one of my Priests said, "Why not strive to follow the right path?"

Personally I find striving (all areas) involves repeatedly returning to the right path. Not easy

[merry gardens]

Moxie, I love your spirit of obedience in post #104.  I wish for your sake that you believed with your heart what the Church teaches about contraception, but if you don't believe He cares about if you use contraception or not, I hope you at least find comfort that God cares very much about obedience.  Christ was obedient to the Father on the Cross--and that brings us new life.  You are obedient to Church teachings--and that is a cross for you that gives your new child life. 

[DianeW88]

Well I know women who have used Accutane while abstaining so either their doctor steered them poorly or your friends' did.  But if all you say is true then your friend would also have to abstain from sex as to not actually potentially abort an unborn child because of her choice of birth control.  

 

Yes, I can see how that would be a church requirement.  I don't believe that's how it was explained to my friend, however.  And I know there is no way in the world her husband would go along with abstinence.  He is not a Catholic.

 

[JustEm]

Yes, I can see how that would be a church requirement.  I don't believe that's how it was explained to my friend, however.  And I know there is no way in the world her husband would go along with abstinence.  He is not a Catholic.

 

I'm sure of all that too but I was merely commenting on your assertion that there are loopholes. There are not and Moxie knows that but other people reading this post might not.

 

I'm not faulting your friends for their decision.  If they were steered incorrectly by medical professions who don't understand their faith or by priests who would rather keep a butt in the pew than be absolutely honest with them God would not fault them.  All I can do is try to help people who misinterpret Church teaching by telling them the truth.

[Violet Crown]

If the pill they are taking is a type that causes a fertilized egg to be aborted or deliberately not implant than it goes against Catholic teaching and their priests are guiding them incorrectly.

If this were true, no Catholic woman could take any medication or undergo any medical procedure that might involve a risk to an embryo. For that matter, no Catholic woman could engage in any activity that could conceivably lead to miscarriage. Fortunately, that isn't Catholic teaching.

[JustEm]

If this were true, no Catholic woman could take any medication or undergo any medical procedure that might involve a risk to an embryo. For that matter, no Catholic woman could engage in any activity that could conceivably lead to miscarriage. Fortunately, that isn't Catholic teaching.

 

That is not true.  You can take medication and undergo medical procedures that could involve the risk to an embryo.  You can not take something or have a procedure done that directly attacks the embryo(which certain forms of birth control do.) If you must take forms of birth control that directly attack the embryo because of another medical issue then you must also abstain as to not allow that medication to directly attack the embryo.  The sole purpose of taking the pill while on Accutane is to prevent pregnancy. 

[Violet Crown]

That is not true. You can take medication and undergo medical procedures that could involve the risk to an embryo. You can not take something or have a procedure done that directly attacks the embryo(which certain forms of birth control do.) If you must take forms of birth control that directly attack the embryo because of another medical issue then you must also abstain as to not allow that medication to directly attack the embryo. The sole purpose of taking the pill while on Accutane is to prevent pregnancy.

I'm not aware of any form of hormonal birth control that "directly attacks" the embryo; but I'm happy to be corrected on this point.

 

The sole purpose of the doctor prescribing hormonal treatment while the patient is on Accutane may be to prevent pregnancy; but if the patient is abstaining, she is by definition not contracepting. It's her intent, not the intent of the doctor or government regulators, that matters.

 

Hormone pills are not forbidden. Contraception (an act involving intent) is.

 

ETA: Even if a drug or medical procedure "directly attacks" (I assume this means something like "causes immediate harm to") an embryo, if that effect is not the intent of the woman, she may use the drug or undergo the procedure. This is a longstanding Catholic ethical principle.

 

ETA2: Moxie, many prayers for you and your family. You're a better Catholic than I am.

[StaceyinLA]

Well, congratulations on the baby. Although unplanned, I'm sure it will be loved and cherished.

 

Secondly, I was raised Catholic, but am certainly not a strict Catholic at this time, so take this with a grain of salt.

 

I would be inclined to go against in church in the sense that I would use barrier methods. I, for one, have an issue with abortifacient methods of birth control anyway. I think if I knew I were preventing conception versus potentially allowing conception and preventing implantation, I could live with that (whether my church allowed it or not). To me the bigger issue would be allowing early abortions, and barrier would not let that happen.

 

This is just my 2 cents. At the end of the day you have to live with yourself and your choices. I, personally, think it would be better to practice barrier birth control then have children I resented from conception.

 

**I just read your post a few posts up after I posted this one, so I now realize mine really isn't pertinent since it IS suggesting going against the church. Yes, I do understand the way the Catholic church works with this sort of thing too, so I understand the position you're in. I guess though, for me, I have never really understood allowing abstaining during fertile periods to avoid pregnancy, but condemning barrier methods of b/c - one of a few of my difficult areas with the Catholic church.**

[JustEm]

I'm not aware of any form of hormonal birth control that "directly attacks" the embryo; but I'm happy to be corrected on this point.

 

The sole purpose of the doctor prescribing hormonal treatment while the patient is on Accutane may be to prevent pregnancy; but if the patient is abstaining, she is by definition not contracepting. It's her intent, not the intent of the doctor or government regulators, that matters.

 

Hormone pills are not forbidden. Contraception (an act involving intent) is.

 

ETA: Even if a drug or medical procedure "directly attacks" (I assume this means something like "causes immediate harm to") an embryo, if that effect is not the intent of the woman, she may use the drug or undergo the procedure. This is a longstanding Catholic ethical principle.

 

ETA2: Moxie, many prayers for you and your family. You're a better Catholic than I am.

 

In the case of hormonal birth control its not the contraceptive aspect that isn't allowed.  It is the abortive aspect in that it can cause a fertilized egg not to implant that is not allowed. As I said, yes if they are abstaining while on such pills then they are fine.  

 

The bolded is simply incorrect.  For example, a woman with an ectopic pregnancy can not take a pill to induce a miscarriage(assuming they are fully aware of Church teaching) would not be in good standing with the Church.  The intent of the woman is to correct a serious medical issue she is facing if the pregnancy continues (rupture of her tubes)  but if that intent causes an abortion then it is not allowed.  Her only option would be to removed the effected part, which would indirectly cause an abortion.  

 

If you'd like we can continue our discussion privately but I am no longer going to take up this thread.  

[Luanne]

Maybe it is time to consider leaving the Catholic Church.  I can see how the rules they impose can be difficult to follow.  I've never been a Catholic, but my brothers and sister-in-laws are ... they don't follow this particular rule though.  They feel they need to control how large their families are rather than follow what the church teaches.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

My cousin, a nun, taught me about the conscience teachings in the Church as well as the Jesuits so I do believe if one's conscience tells oneself that birth control is not a mortal sin, then it is not. I believe Pope Francis has also made allusions to this recently. The teaching essentially allows one to follow one's conscience. (Hugs)

[Violet Crown]

In the case of hormonal birth control its not the contraceptive aspect that isn't allowed. It is the abortive aspect in that it can cause a fertilized egg not to implant that is not allowed. As I said, yes if they are abstaining while on such pills then they are fine.

 

The bolded is simply incorrect. For example, a woman with an ectopic pregnancy can not take a pill to induce a miscarriage(assuming they are fully aware of Church teaching) would not be in good standing with the Church. The intent of the woman is to correct a serious medical issue she is facing if the pregnancy continues (rupture of her tubes) but if that intent causes an abortion then it is not allowed. Her only option would be to removed the effected part, which would indirectly cause an abortion.

 

If you'd like we can continue our discussion privately but I am no longer going to take up this thread.

I understand, and I actually think we are saying the same thing here, or close to it. In your example of an ectopic pregnancy, deliberately provoking a miscarriage would be the intent, and as such of course would not be permissible. Intent goes to the means: you can't abort or contracept in order to produce a desired medical outcome.

 

What I was saying was that a drug or procedure may cause direct harm to a fetus and still be permissible, as in your example of removing a ruptured tube. Another hypothetical might be taking drugs to treat cancer which will certainly cause a miscarriage: this is permissible, even though the drugs might have a medical effect which could be seen as directly attacking the unborn child, because this isn't the intent of the woman taking the drugs.

 

Anyhow you're right that this thread is derailed, and I'd be happy to take it private if you want; but I'm fairly convinced now that we were just talking at cross-purposes and not actually in disagreement.

[Melissa in Australia]

:grouphug:  :grouphug: :grouphug:  :grouphug:  

 

I feel for you.

 I come from a family with an over fertility problem and know just how down you can get over an unexpected arrival

 

 

 My mother once told me ( when she found out she was pregnant only 3 months after having a baby) that the one good thing about being pregnant is that  you can have lots of s*x without the fear of getting pregnant.

[Melissa in Australia]

nm.

[katilac]

In the case of hormonal birth control its not the contraceptive aspect that isn't allowed.  It is the abortive aspect in that it can cause a fertilized egg not to implant that is not allowed. As I said, yes if they are abstaining while on such pills then they are fine.  

 

  

 

It's the contraceptive aspect as well - condoms are not allowed either. 

[Anne in CA]

Whenever you enter a crisis of faith your attitude determines whether you grow deeper or grow bitter. I have a lot of hope that Moxie is going to grow deeper from this time in her life. I have known Catholic women to grow bitter from this, but I have known some who have grown deeper. No matter what faith a person has (even atheists have crisis of faith), these times make or break people. It is better to have them than not to grow. It is just hard, no way around it.

 

Moxie, we are all sorry for your pain, but hopeful for your future.

[Moxie]

Ok. Night all! Thanks for the support, it really does help!

[LMA]

Life is a gift. It is very hard for people who don't follow Catholic teaching to understand what it is like to follow Catholic teaching. Following the Catholic Church's teachings is not easy nor is it meant to be. It's okay to struggle with following teachings. I think Moxie was sharing her struggle but she was not giving up on the Church.

 

The teaching is on artificial birth control. It sets up a barrier against life. NFP is not artificial. It is not the rhythm method and is not a barrier. The natural method is abstinence. Nor is it 100% effective unless you abstain 100% of the time.

 

(I don't want to debate Church teaching. I just gave a very short explanation. If you are against Church teaching, you wouldn't want to understand the catechesis behind it anyway. The conscience teaching assumes that a correctly formed conscience is present. It is not a "way out" to pick and choose parts of Church teaching to follow and not follow.)

[wintermom]

Moxie, I respect your courage and openness with your struggle. All the best with your pregnancy and may God grant you and your family strength and peace.

[JustEm]

It's the contraceptive aspect as well - condoms are not allowed either. 

 

 

Not in the case that I was discussing with another poster about medical reasons for being allowed to use certain forms of birth control

[Dashka]

Moxie, there are so many things that I want to say, but I am afraid now is not the right time. (And I don't know if I will have the courage later). I will pray for you to have peace in this time. I want you to know that your pain has brought me to tears, even though I don't know you. I know you will come to want this little one, so when that happy day comes I want to tell you congratulations :) I am so sorry for your pain right now though. May God bless you and comfort you :)

[KungFuPanda]

I believe that EVERY organized religion will have something you cannot embrace, or simply don't believe. If you're shopping for a perfect religious fit you could be in for a LOT of church (and synagogue, and mosque, and temple, etc. . .) hopping. OR you can live with a 'good enough' fit and take the more complicated path of following your own conscience.

[Kari C in SC]

Haven't read this entire thread, but here is my mom's story. Take it as you wish. My mom and dad were both raised catholic. She had 3 babies in 2.5 years. When she had her 3rd baby, she was in the room with another catholic mom. They brought the woman's 9th child to her and she told them to take it away. She didn't want to see it. She looked at my mom and asked her when the pope was gonna change his mind. It had an impact on my mom and she felt inclined to talk to my dad about it. They began using birth control. She did end up with one more oops baby 6 years later (me), but she says she never regretted her decision to use birth control.

[StephanieZ]

I know gazillions of Catholics, and not one of them who has had their families in the last 40 years has more than 5 kids. Not one! I'd say the average is two kids for the more recent Catholic families, maybe three or so for some of them. Five kids with some of the families (like dh's) who had their kids a generation ago. I'm not Catholic, and I have never been, but there are serious Catholic-school-raising, going-to-Church-every week, etc, Catholics who have chosen to have smaller families. I know they have gotten support from their parish priests on these issues as well. 

 

In my non-Catholic mind, I see that there are a zillion sins we commit all the time, and that God is forgiving, and that the great men who are priests and brothers, etc, and have studied these topics with all their hearts and with deep knowledge of the church's teachings, well, those leaders are, often, much more understanding and flexible than the official teaching. I hope you can come to peace with your decisions and find a way to feel comfortable with limiting your future child bearing.

 

((((hugs)))) and best wishes to you and your family.

 

I adored my babies, and I wanted more than the three we had, but, I can't imagine how painful it would be to have repeated unplanned and unwanted pregnancies, when you already have a house full of young children and are at or beyond the breaking point already. I think that loving them so much would just make it so much harder because you would have such mixed and complicated emotions. That would be the worst. I am so sorry. 

[Joker]

I really have nothing to offer, but I feel for you. We're in the process of RCIA but I don't know that we would be if I had to worry about this issue. Dh had a vasectomy years ago and I'm under the impression that's okay since we weren't members of the church at that time. I will say that going through this process has left me with guilt regarding our decisions because I'm seeing things a bit differently now, but not so much that we would even consider a reversal (so not fair to dh!). 

 

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:  I'll pray that you find some peace.

[Orthodox6]

It's offensive to this Christian, who is not a Catholic Christian.......... I think it offends many, regardless of religion.

 

I agree with you.  I referenced Catholicism only because that is the religion central to this thread. 

 

[Trish]

Well,  most Catholics use birth control and don't give it a second thought. Some use it and feel guilty. Some leave the church over it. So there are a lot of choices here.

 

I want to congratulate you on your newest addition, but with feelings so raw on the topic, I guess I'll leave it at Good Luck, hope you're feeling better about things soon.

 

I didn't read further into the thread, so I'm not sure if your angst is over finances or health. I'll assume it's finances because if it was health you probably would've mentioned that in the first post? (guess I'll find out if I'm wrong as I continue reading!)

 

Generally, people who have health reasons to avoid pregnancy have a pretty easy time invoking their conscience as a reason to use artificial birth control methods. (as long as they are not abortifacient) Even people with financial reasons can invoke conscience. Properly formed conscience can trump church rules. Que: discussion of what a "properly formed conscience" is until the bovines arrive at the homestead.

 

Here is my take: the Catholic Church teaches that sexual acts need to be "open to life," therefore no artificial birth control. I think a lot of people view this as a technical issue, so if you just manage to use NFP tp perfections, you are good to go. That isn't quite how I view it. Openness to life is not just the physical aspect, it is also the mental/moral/spiritual aspect. If your MIND is closed to the idea of a new life in your family, then that is not really being open to life, is it?

 

Please understand I'm not trying to be critical of you or unsympathetic to your situation. Just pointing out that using NFP while not allowing for accepting God's will if a baby comes along in spite of that, is not really being open to life. To me, using NFP implies you are putting a certain amount of trust in God. So, when the answer is another baby, do you still have that trust? If not, why use NFP to begin with? (Also bear in mind there's nothing wrong with having disappointment at first, but I think it would be truly sinful to carry resentment toward the baby beyond that)

 

Do you need to leave the church over this? You can. Most people don't.

 

Are you a Catholic for cultural reasons? Due to marriage? Habit? Inertia?

 

If it isn't about love of Jesus  and the Eucharist, then it's hard to put up with  the rules of the Catholic Church. Because it's extremely counter-cultural, so hard to adhere to unless you truly believe something is there. For me, that Something is Jesus in the Eucharist.

 

Again good luck, I hope you find the peace of Christ.

 

I know my sister, born 14 years after me and not at particularly convenient time for my parents, is one of the most treasured parts of my life.

 

[milovany]

Moxie, I too admire your stick-to-it-ivenss regarding your faith and what that is asking of you.  I get it.  I'm not good at it with my faith, but I get it. Anecdotes and opinions are not something you can base your faith on.  Your Church is God's gift to you, and you've given yourself to her.  I with others in this thread pray that the Holy Trinity would carry you through the prayers of the Our Lady the Theotokos.

[JumpyTheFrog]

It sounds like you might be experiencing some cognitive dissonance. On the one hand, you are part of a church that teaches that the tradition related to contraception comes from God via the church. On the the other hand, you don't believe that God really sees contraception (such as barriers) as always evil.

 

Ultimately, people with cognitive dissonance either push it aside and pretend it doesn't exist (by ignoring what they really feel or believe about a situation) or work through the anguish until they decide which side they really believe is true. I remember your thread about this issue from the spring. It sounds like you haven't been able to find any resolution or better NFP methods. My prediction is that if you try to push the issue aside and pretend it isn't there, it will show up again in the next few years, especially if you have another unplanned pregnancy scare. One way or another, I think you and your husband are going to have to do some deep digging and revisit your foundational beliefs on this and related issues (contraception, Catholic tradition, Catholic church authority, whether you can stay Catholic, etc).

[PrairieSong]

Moxie, I remember your previous thread about this issue and your struggle with it. I'm Catholic too, and I accept and try to live by all the Church's teachings though of course I stumble. So I get where you're coming from. I'm sorry for your pain and disappointment. I pray that God will give you peace and strength and that you will grow closer to Him through the struggle. I pray that you find the support you need. PM me if you need someone to talk to. I think Martha's facebook group sounds like a great idea. {{{Hugs}}} to you.

[Joanne]

Bitter is a very good word to describe my mood right now.

 

((((Hugs))))

 

The only thing I can say is that God/grace is bigger than this.

 

That, and I admire your integrity.

[TranquilMind]

On a side note..This shows up as "confessions of an angry cat" before entering the general area.

Lol

[TranquilMind]

Thank you to everyone who has responded! I appreciate all the efforts to help me feel at ease.

 

Some points to clarify.

 

Mortal sin--the Church teaches that for a sin to be mortal it must be 1. grave or serious sin 2. done with full knowledge and 3. consent. Not everyone Catholic who is using BC is condemned to Hell because not everyone knows about or understands the teaching. However, I do.

 

The Church teaches that sexual acts between man and wife must be 1. unitive and 2. procreative. It would be evil to force your spouse to have relations because it denies the unity of the spouses. It is also evil (evil is a privation--the act is deprived of it's good) to deny the sexual act it's procreative nature. That is why NFP is permitted--if you aren't having relations, there is no way to deprive the act of it's good.

 

Someone brought up my previous thread and asked what I believe. I truly do not believe God in Heaven cares if DH and I use a barrier. We've been generous and open to life. I think that that is what God cares about.

 

But, I am wrong.

 

Here's the thing that will make a Protestant's head spin. As a Catholic, it is not my call to say what God believes. And I understand that many of you can't understand that. I am not going to presume that I am smarter than 2000 years of study and tradition. I have tradition and a hierarchy that are just as important to me as the Bible--I can't say that I'm going to ignore part of the Church teaching just like I can't say I'm going to ignore parts of the Bible.

 

Really, my only choice is to accept Church teaching no matter how much I hate it (still working on humble submission) or decide that the Church isn't really the Church put on earth by Jesus and handed to Peter and walk away.

 

I love the Church. I can't not be Catholic. So really there is no choice. Well, I guess there is. I can choose to be happy and deal with my lot gracefully. Maybe tomorrow.

 

On the bright side, I get to have as much sex as I want for the next nine months!!

As a nonCatholic who married in the Catholic Church, I would contend that your view that a barrier is not proscribed by God is supported in scripture.   Killing your baby = wrong.  Preventing pregnancy = unaddressed. 

I guess all you can do is pray for earlier menopause if you feel compelled to not ever use any barrier.    Hey...I still haven't stopped entirely and I'm in my mid-fifties! 

 

 

 

[imagine.more]

Let me start by saying I am not catholic...or religious in any way.

 

Having said that, I find religion fascinating and have been very interested in what Pope Francis has to say.  His interview in September touched on contraception and it sounds to me like, while it hasn't yet, the official church doctrine might be up for review.  

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/20/world/europe/pope-bluntly-faults-churchs-focus-on-gays-and-abortion.html?_r=0

 

Is there a more liberal priest or bishop you could speak to that might be understanding of your predicament and able to help you find a solution that would work for your family and still honor your catholic beliefs?  

 

Most non-catholics don't really get this, and I totally understand why not because the Catholic church is unique in how it functions. But doctrine cannot change, it just can't be overturned. Even if Pope Francis personally wanted to change the doctrine he could not. Also, a lot of new articles have misquoted the pope and really jumped the gun in their conclusions about him. His point is not that abortion and gay marriage are totally cool and we should allow them, his point is that in misguided religious fervor some people have made those the bigger issues when he believes (and I agree) that the Church should spend more time focusing on addressing the needs of the poor, the oppressed, the widows, the orphans, the unemployed, the sick, etc. Social justice issues vs sexual morality issues. One doesn't negate the other, he's just saying we may have forgotten about social justice issues in fervor for pushing sexual morality issues.

 

 

Moxie, I am so sorry! That is a tough place to be :(  Life sucks sometimes, doesn't it? But I know your new little one will be a blessing, if perhaps extremely overwhelming too. I'll pray for a break from fertility for you and increased grace to accept your family size because that is a hard thing to do and I totally understand. Sometimes things are too hard for us and that's where grace can step in and fill in the gaps. 

 

I think you're already an amazing woman for sticking to your beliefs (on the church being God's One True Church) in spite of doubts and hardships. Most people do not have to truly endure big hardships for their faith and those who do often succumb to the pressure and give up their beliefs or go against them knowingly. 

 

Are there any specific reasons another baby is a hardship for you guys? Emotional, relational, financial, physical, etc? I'm just wondering if maybe anyone here could help support and advise you through the practical aspects of preparing for an unplanned baby. I know for us whenever we're using NFP it's because there's some reason a baby would just not be a good idea so I assume you probably have specific reasons you guys were trying to use NFP. For example, we're using NFP right now to avoid pregnancy because I'm terrified of another super fast labor with my midwife so far away. I also have four children and am running low on energy/patience with a poorly treated thyroid problem and depression. If I learned of a midwife within 30 minutes who could care for me, got my thyroid under control, and could hire a babysitter a few hours a week to take a mental break we'd probably stop periodic abstinence and have another baby sometime. Perhaps there's something similar that could help you out?  Babies are great and all but they are also whole people who require stuff like food, clothes, care, and just take a lot of mental and physical energy. 

 

You and your family are in my prayers. It's a tough place to be in ((hugs))

[Little Nyssa]

I just also wanted to point out that it's not just Catholic ladies who run into this difficulty:  I think we have had some threads started by Quiverfull moms who are just worn out and also questioning.  So you are not alone Moxie, not at all.

 

:grouphug:  and just to remind you those first months of pg are very emotional and can be ambivalent even in a very wanted pregnancy.

 

And, if the pregnancy does not go well, it would NOT be your fault because you've had these feelings.  OK? 

 

[Guest denubis]

Moxie,

 

Sorry to hear about your situation. I hope that you eventually make peace with the news.

 

I'll offer some advice, for what it's worth. Sit down with your husband and get aligned on what constitutes and acceptable level of risk in the future. If, after this pregnancy, you feel that you are able (financially, psychologically, physically) to care for additional children then perhaps you continue with NFP. But if you genuinely can't afford, in any sense of the term, additional children then you will need to reconcile the needs of your family with your Catholic teachings. I wasn't raised Catholic, and therefore unable to fully appreciate your spiritual conflict, but I'd question any rule-set that compels me to not act in the best interest of my family and their security. Whatever decision you and your husband make, be sure that you can live with the consequences. Assess your risk tolerance for future pregnancies, discuss the options with your husband, and follow your conscience.

 

Maybe this is neither here nor there, but you should confront the apparent lack of harmony between your personal beliefs and those of the church. You will likely continue to be conflicted if these are misaligned, or in this case, entirely orthogonal. Perhaps resolving this conflict will necessarily lead you to the answer to your original question. I'm not religious, so commenting seems disingenuous. Besides, matters of beliefs and faith ought to be a personal assessment.

 

Best wishes to you.

[amy g.]

Hugs and prayers for you and your family.

 

We are Catholic and do not believe in using artificial birth control. None of our Catholic role models (parents, siblings, friends) use birth control either. We are not surrounded by people who choose to ignore the teachings of The Church.

 

I'm struggling for different but related reason.

 

We have the financial, emotional and energy resources to welcome any baby God chooses to bless is with. The timing may not be ideal, but it would never be devastating for us.

 

We have 5 children and are happy with the idea of being "finished" but would also be happy if it turns out that we are to have more.

 

What I can not find a way to be happy about is continuing to not use birth control when it results in miscarriage after miscarriage, many later ones after first seeing the baby's heartbeat.

 

I understand and believe that a child is a blessing. But would another miscarriage be a blessing?

 

Going against my beliefs and against The Church's teachings are not an option for me. I'm praying for enlightenment. I'm praying for God to change my heart and to change my mind.

 

I will submit my own will to God, no matter what. I will always believe that God's plan is better for me than my own plan would be.

 

I'm praying for you. I don't want you to believe that you are alone. I know plenty of Catholic families who do not choose to disregard the teachings against artificial birth control.

[ktgrok]

Here is my take on this. This is a teaching that will at some point change, in my opinion. It almost did in Vatican II. A comittee was created to look at the issue and come up with recommendations. They pretty much overwhelmingly  advised allowing birth control. The pope then replaced some of the people on the comittee to make the outcome different, and yet it STILL advised allowing birth control, just not unanimously. That was enough for the Church to say there was discord, and to uphold the ban on birth control. Right now there is ongoing study of the issue by those in the Church. That said, maybe that doesn't matter. It probably doesn't, as the church says what the church says. 

 

HOwever, the Church also values an informed conscience. It is in the Catechism. If you have prayed/studied/read/thought about this issue,and feel that this is the right thing (and I don't mean easy, I mean RIGHT), than it would actually be a sin to go against that belief. It is a sin to violate your own informed conscience. In other words, if you have studied,prayed, thought, read about this and do not feel it is a mortal sin, it isn't a mortal sin. For something to BE a mortal sin you have to know that it is one, and purposely choose it. 

 

Also, if you are considering leaving the church over this, consider that it must be better to BE in the church and not obey one rule, than be out of the church entirely, right?

[Aura]

Moxie,

Found this on Pinterest and thought of you. :grouphug:

 

[JFSinIL]

I'm sure I'll insult some Catholics but here goes....

 

Lets just say I know a lot of Catholics who just ignore some of that.

 

Yup. 

[poppy]

I admire you, OP. I wish you an easy pregnancy and a happy baby.

 

I am amazed that so many posters here are saying, well just stop being Catholic! Or, just ignore what you feel is the right thing to do! I would be very offended if someone told me to just stop believing what I believe because it's hard. 

 

I think church-hopping is fairly common among some Protestants, so perhaps it is just a different mindset.  But, not really.  Catholics sometimes try different churches within the faith, but the core beliefs don't change.  Just like for Protestants (who, I didn't learn until adulthhood, do not think of themselves as "Protestants"). 

[Alte Veste Academy]

I admire you, OP. I wish you an easy pregnancy and a happy baby.

 

I am amazed that so many posters here are saying, well just stop being Catholic! Or, just ignore what you feel is the right thing to do! I would be very offended if someone told me to just stop believing what I believe because it's hard.

 

I think church-hopping is fairly common among some Protestants, so perhaps it is just a different mindset. But, not really. Catholics sometimes try different churches within the faith, but the core beliefs don't change. Just like for Protestants (who, I didn't learn until adulthhood, do not think of themselves as "Protestants").

For the record, and I can only speak for myself here, I would never ever ever never ever tell someone to stop ______ just because it is hard or to ignore what they think is right. I was asking if she truly did believe it was right or if she was walking a walk she didn't really believe in. That sounds tactless to some, I am sure, but for me it is a valid question. Is doing as a Catholic does without fully believing the doctrine better than realigning your faith? I don't know, but I think it is a question worth asking. What I do not understand, personally, is the paradox of life being considered so precious that it creates "unwanted" life. I think this is no small issue, and certainly worthy of prompting a deep, hard examination of faith.

[marbel]

For the record, and I can only speak for myself here, I would never ever ever never ever tell someone to stop ______ just because it is hard or to ignore what they think is right. I was asking if she truly did believe it was right or if she was walking a walk she didn't really believe in. That sounds tactless to some, I am sure, but for me it is a valid question. Is doing as a Catholic does without fully believing the doctrine better than realigning your faith? I don't know, but I think it is a question worth asking. What I do not understand, personally, is the paradox of life being considered so precious that it creates "unwanted" life. I think this is no small issue, and certainly worthy of prompting a deep, hard examination of faith.

 

This, and the OP directly asked: "Do I leave the church?"

 

I admire the OP!  She is not for taking the easy way out and just ignoring the church's teachings on this, as apparently so many seem to do. 

 

I don't understand something and maybe that's a different thread:  How can a person in good conscience stay in a church with which they disagree on such an important, non-negotiable matter of doctrine?   (I assume people who ignore the teaching on contraception disagree with it.)  That seems to me to be a mockery of the church, because the sin is so deliberate: It's not like someone accidentally takes birth control pills.  I'm not trying to bash anyone or anyone's faith or church, but I truly do not understand.

[Trish]

Here is my take on this. This is a teaching that will at some point change, in my opinion. It almost did in Vatican II. A comittee was created to look at the issue and come up with recommendations. They pretty much overwhelmingly  advised allowing birth control. The pope then replaced some of the people on the comittee to make the outcome different, and yet it STILL advised allowing birth control, just not unanimously. That was enough for the Church to say there was discord, and to uphold the ban on birth control. Right now there is ongoing study of the issue by those in the Church.

 

I think that's one of the reasons so many Catholics DO use artificial birth control -- in that era word got out that the rule would probably be changed, so people started using birth control in anticipation of the rule change. Then, it didn't. You could view that as the Catholic Church clinging to its old ways. Or, you could view it as the intervention of the Holy Spirit.

 

I feel I understand the underlying rationale against artificial birth control. However, I haven't read any of the rationales you referenced above as to why they WOULD allow it. Do you know how they would theologically justify such a change?

 

[Trish]

 

 

I don't understand something and maybe that's a different thread:  How can a person in good conscience stay in a church with which they disagree on such an important, non-negotiable matter of doctrine?   (I assume people who ignore the teaching on contraception disagree with it.)  That seems to me to be a mockery of the church, because the sin is so deliberate: It's not like someone accidentally takes birth control pills.  I'm not trying to bash anyone or anyone's faith or church, but I truly do not understand.

 

Well, since so many Catholics disregard this particular rule, I would say you'd have maybe 80 percent fewer Catholics if they all actually left the church as you suggest. (at least in the developed world)

 

I don't think it's so very difficult to remain within the church and disagree with the teaching. As others have pointed out, it's  a matter of conscience. If you truly feel you CANNOT have another baby (health reason, financial reason, you're Chinese), and that this reason is so critical that it trumps the church's teaching, then you can in good conscience violate the rule. What gets dicey is, how good is your reason? Inconvenient? Very inconvenient? Life-threatening? Of course, you could always abstain. People do make the argument that this is not practical or reasonable.

 

Some of the things we're asked to do as Catholics are sacrificial, whether that be having another baby or abstaining. I guess I view the sacrifices we're asked to make in this age aren't any worse than the ones made by Christians in the early days when they lost their lives for the faith.

 

[laundrycrisis]

Hugs. I would let go of my own need to follow religious rules that don't personally work for me.

[marbel]

Well, since so many Catholics disregard this particular rule, I would say you'd have maybe 80 percent fewer Catholics if they all actually left the church as you suggest. (at least in the developed world)

 

I don't think it's so very difficult to remain within the church and disagree with the teaching. As others have pointed out, it's  a matter of conscience. If you truly feel you CANNOT have another baby (health reason, financial reason, you're Chinese), and that this reason is so critical that it trumps the church's teaching, then you can in good conscience violate the rule. What gets dicey is, how good is your reason? Inconvenient? Very inconvenient? Life-threatening? Of course, you could always abstain. People do make the argument that this is not practical or reasonable.

 

Some of the things we're asked to do as Catholics are sacrificial, whether that be having another baby or abstaining. I guess I view the sacrifices we're asked to make in this age aren't any worse than the ones made by Christians in the early days when they lost their lives for the faith.

 

 

Thanks for this response.  It does though bring up another area of confusion: that it's a matter of conscience.  Again, not trying to bash, but either it's wrong or it's not wrong to use contraception.   I agree that leaving things up to an individual's conscience can be "dicey" as you say.  it doesn't make sense to me.  If it's open to one's conscience, why doesn't the Church state it that way and end the ban?  But if the ban comes from God, and God is not changeable, the ban can't be ended.  Sorry, I'm making my own head spin now. 

 

All Christians are asked to sacrifice in some ways.   All Christians are supposed to die to their own wills and follow Christ. Obviously there are different interpretations of what that means. 

 

[nmoira]

Thanks for this response.  It does though bring up another area of confusion: that it's a matter of conscience.  Again, not trying to bash, but either it's wrong or it's not wrong to use contraception.   I agree that leaving things up to an individual's conscience can be "dicey" as you say.  it doesn't make sense to me.  If it's open to one's conscience, why doesn't the Church state it that way and end the ban?  But if the ban comes from God, and God is not changeable, the ban can't be ended.  Sorry, I'm making my own head spin now. 

 

All Christians are asked to sacrifice in some ways.   All Christians are supposed to die to their own wills and follow Christ. Obviously there are different interpretations of what that means. 

 

 

For Anglicans it is a matter of conscience, but I was under the impression (and would be happy to be corrected) that one of the reasons most think the Catholic Church will not change its stance on the issue is because the condemnation of contraceptive use as mortal sin is Infallible Doctrine. 

 

Is there any instance of Infallible Doctrine later being overturned? 

[Murphy101]

The RCC does not leave it up to personal conscious choice. I'm not going to debate that fact. I'm just stating it. Having a bunch of people ignore it doesn't change it. Finding some priests or nuns to say otherwise doesn't change it. Struggling with it doesn't change it.

 

ETA: To be clear. Obviously humans have free will to decide whatever they want. In that regard, the RCC acknowledges they have a choice to make. However, whether ABC is wrong or not is not up for debate in the RCC. Her teachings are very very clear that it is not to be done. There is not a proviso anywhere saying, "well unless you really feel your personal conscious says otherwise, then it's okay."

[mommymilkies]

I didn't read every post, so I'm probably just repeating what was already said.  But IRL, I know very few Catholics that are completely anti-birth control.  You have to do what works for you.  To me, personally, there is a big difference between following teachings because you believe in it and know it to be true, and doing it just because you are told to.  

 

http://www.catholicsforchoice.org/images/ads/WhatCatholicsBelieveAboutBirthControl.asp

 

My Irish Catholic family on my father's side had unwanted children.  The father was abusive and the kids ended up being adopted out.  It caused a huge amount of problems in the family over the next hundred years.  I think most people would agree that finding responsible ways to choose to have children and choose to avoid it for the sake of the entire family is probably a better choice than being forced to bear children that will not live good lives.  I am all for big families.  I love mine.  I would have a dozen kids if it was my choice, but I respect people's choice to have less. It's none of my business.