Pastors, Church Workers, and Trends (CC) Part Rant/Part Questions

[eaglei]

I recently heard something that just simply floored me, especially since, not long after, I learned of (and was presented with the proof) of specific examples where it really is happening. Churches of various denominations are now considering *workers* in the church to be *pastors*. :ohmy: It seems they are taking a more *generic* approach to the term *pastor* and are considering that, if you minister in any way, e.g., teach a Sunday School class, lead worship, etc., that you can, at the senior pastor's discretion, have the title *pastor* follow your name (like on official literature of that local church, e.g.). The ordained ministers have "Reverend" by their name, and these church members/workers have "Pastor".

 

This is just plain wrong to me. Not to mention a lie as well as deceitful. The potential ramifications could be quite serious. Just imagine someone talking to one of these *pastors" thinking that they really are a trained pastor and thinking there is confidentiality, just to find out they aren't. And what about those pastors who truly are trained - who diligently studied and fulfilled the requirements of their denomination. Isn't this a slap in their face? What about Biblical standards? This is almost like saying that the assistants to a lawyer can slap the title *lawyer* beside their name simply because they *practice* law by virtue of assisting the lawyer. If the world understands that people in various professions must have certified training in order to wear the title, why is the church suddenly saying the opposite?

 

When questioned about this, the answer from the hierarchy was that this is the *trend* and that *all the churches* are doing this now. :001_huh:

 

I don't want to start an argument - really, I don't . . . but does this *trend* concern you? And have you heard of this? Is this happening in your church?

 

I am purposely not mentioning any denomination, but to say the least, I am shocked and disappointed.

[DawnM]

Nope, never heard of it, EVER. I think I would be looking for a new church.

[Whereneverever]

This is not a trend in my denomination at all.

 

For paid staff like school teachers there can be legal and tax reasons they may be called a minister, but that doesn't sound like what you are describing at all.

[Michelle My Bell]

I actually know of a few mainstream churches that have this. I was actually a victim of one of these "pastors". He caused a tremendously painful experience in my family as a result of his counsel. The real pastor of the church didn't agree with him, but his pressure and influence in the church won out.

[Anne in CA]

I have NEVER heard of this at all.

[BigMamaBird]

I have never heard that. Even our Director of Children's Church isn't called Pastor.

[SnowWhite]

Our church is moving toward a plurality of elders and ordaining lay elders. I think it is a GOOD thing. I can't picture any of them co-opting the term "pastor", but by Bible definition a pastor and a lay elder can all work together.

 

The idea of one or two men having all the burden, responsibility and authority in the church doesn't seem Biblical to me. (Authority, used loosely, our church is congregational in government style). There should never be any ambiguity about whether a particular elder or pastor is the Senior Pastor or Family Pastor (by definition seminary educated men) or merely a lay elder, I wouldn't think. And the position of ordained elder will be a matter of church election/affirmation and taken as seriously as that of a deacon or pastor.

[Dayle in Guatemala]

I don't post often anymore but I do lurk!

 

I haven't lived in the US for 7 years ever since we came onto the mission field and I have to say...this bothers me a LOT.

 

A pastor is someone who shepherds the hearts of the congregation and is held very accountable by a board of elders and most of all God for the way he/she does this. If anyone can be called pastor--where is the accountability? It would be easy for some unscrupulous person to take advantage of people in a situation where they are relying on the guidance of a shepherd to help them in a vulnerable time in their lives.

 

I think that accountability is the most important thing in leadership. A pastor should be held extremely accountable for their actions and their words. It makes me nervous to think that any church worker could be considered pastor and not be held to the same standards of accountability the head pastor should be under.

 

I would bring my concerns to the board of elders in the church. If they didn't give satisfactory answers to my concerns, I would have to find a new church home. There's just too much chance for spiritual manipulation to occur.

[Whereneverever]

Our church is moving toward a plurality of elders and ordaining lay elders. I think it is a GOOD thing. I can't picture any of them co-opting the term "pastor", but by Bible definition a pastor and a lay elder can all work together.

 

The idea of one or two men having all the burden, responsibility and authority in the church doesn't seem Biblical to me. (Authority, used loosely, our church is congregational in government style). There should never be any ambiguity about whether a particular elder or pastor is the Senior Pastor or Family Pastor (by definition seminary educated men) or merely a lay elder, I wouldn't think. And the position of ordained elder will be a matter of church election/affirmation and taken as seriously as that of a deacon or pastor.

 

That seems different then labeling everyone pastor, though.

[GWOB]

Pretty common in Southern Baptist churches. My dad, who had absolutely no formal training, became an ordained minister/pastor in the SBC. Most SB pastors I knew had no sort of training when they became ordained. They may have taken a seminary extension class here and there, but no real, formal training. I left the SBC.

 

Now we attend an LCMS church. It takes forever for someone to become a pastor. I like it that way.

[tex-mex]

First I've heard of this trend. :confused:

[Rhonda in TX]

I've never heard of this. I don't see it ever happening at our church, either. If it did, we'd be gone.

[milovany]

Yes, I've seen that, as well as persons giving themselves the title of Apostle or calling themselves a prophet. :001_huh:

 

ETA - Not in Orthodoxy; there's not really a way for that to happen here. Just commenting that I've seen that happen in some circles.

Edited September 23, 2012 by milovaný

[mommaduck]

Pretty common in Southern Baptist churches. My dad, who had absolutely no formal training, became an ordained minister/pastor in the SBC. Most SB pastors I knew had no sort of training when they became ordained. They may have taken a seminary extension class here and there, but no real, formal training. I left the SBC.

 

Now we attend an LCMS church. It takes forever for someone to become a pastor. I like it that way.

Hmmm, that was the way with my FIL, but the SBC told my husband that he needed to go get a two year degree, then go to a two year seminary.

 

 

Oh, and you won't find this in our church either (Eastern Orthodox). However, I have seen this in Pentacostal and Charismatic churches.

[mommaduck]

Yes, I've seen that, as well as persons giving themselves the title of Apostle or calling themselves a prophet. :001_huh:

 

ETA - Not in Orthodoxy; that couldn't happen here. Just commenting that I've seen that happen in some circles.

Or, as some of us Orthodox have encountered a particular person, some that have given themselves the title "His Eminance and Beatitude, the Apostle XXXXX" :glare: Then said person mixes a lot of Jewish and Orthodox lingo. (Said person is not Orthodox, but he tries to get into conversations with Orthodox and claims to be Orthodox, though he has his own church that he runs. I believe his wife is either Pastor, Apostle, or Evangelist)

Edited September 23, 2012 by mommaduck

[GWOB]

Hmmm, that was the way with my FIL, but the SBC told my husband that he needed to go get a two year degree, then go to a two year seminary.

 

 

Oh, and you won't find this in our church either (Eastern Orthodox). However, I have seen this in Pentacostal and Charismatic churches.

 

My dad only only had a high school diploma. He was also divorced. Now, he did have a small congregation, so I don't know if that made any difference. The pastors at the big SBC church all had seminary degrees. And yes, local Pentacostal pastors often had no formal training either.

[the4Rs]

The church I grew up in (nondenom, modern, trendy) is kind of like this I think. In the last few years they have begun hiring people and calling them "Pastor of Counseling", "Pastor of Discipleship" etc....

 

I am not sure why they do this but I guess that they feel these people are best trained in those areas and can best shepherd the people in regards to those areas so they call them pastor of whatever their special area is...

 

Not sure how I feel about it. The church I go to now would never do this. Which I am glad about as it is not my cup of tea but I am not angry about it. I do think it's funny when my mom will tell me they hired a new pastor and I'll ask for what and anymore the titles are getting pretty obscure or they have several people with the same title (specifically for counseling)...

[Whereneverever]

:iagree: That was my first thought. The government won't allow churches to pass over someone that doesn't fit their denomination's beliefs for being a secretary or janitor, etc. It's a gray area with organists and I know of churches that have had trouble with this. By labeling them pastors perhaps it's an attempt to get around that.

 

There was just a court case related to that. The Supreme Court held ministerial exceptions to employment laws. http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/01/12/us/12scotus-text.html

[QuirkyKidAcademy]

The non-denom we currently attend does this. On the bulletin, Joe Smith is listed as "Pastor of Membership." Bob Johnson is Pastor of Missions. Tom Brown is Pastor of Maturity. And there are probably another 3-4 listed similarly.

 

The denom my BIL preaches in doesn't require any training for their pastors - the ones who actually get up in the pulpit and preach. He's never had any formal training, just studying on his own.

[Violet Crown]

:iagree: That was my first thought. The government won't allow churches to pass over someone that doesn't fit their denomination's beliefs for being a secretary or janitor, etc. It's a gray area with organists and I know of churches that have had trouble with this. By labeling them pastors perhaps it's an attempt to get around that.

 

Labelling isn't good enough, though that may be the intent. The Supreme Court upheld the 'ministerial exception' in Hosanna Tabor, but a court would look at what, if any, training and duties lie behind the title of pastor or minister. You can't just exempt yourself from labor and employment laws by slapping on a title.

 

My understanding, though, is that churches have much more latitude for hiring or firing based on religion. So you couldn't refuse to hire a disabled church secretary but you could refuse to hire a secretary for not being of your religion.

[Whereneverever]

Labelling isn't good enough, though that may be the intent. The Supreme Court upheld the 'ministerial exception' in Hosanna Tabor, but a court would look at what, if any, training and duties lie behind the title of pastor or minister. You can't just exempt yourself from labor and employment laws by slapping on a title.

 

My understanding, though, is that churches have much more latitude for hiring or firing based on religion. So you couldn't refuse to hire a disabled church secretary but you could refuse to hire a secretary for not being of your religion.

 

:iagree:

 

Essentially this.

[justamouse]

Huh.

 

 

I'm not seeing anything good come from this.

[Remudamom]

Won't be happening at my church. PCA.

[GAPeachie]

Our church has one pastor and several ministers underneath them.

 

For example:

 

Children's Minister

Music and Worship Minister

 

etc.

 

I don't think this is what the OP originally described though.

[Vanna]

I recently heard something that just simply floored me, especially since, not long after, I learned of (and was presented with the proof) of specific examples where it really is happening. Churches of various denominations are now considering *workers* in the church to be *pastors*. :ohmy: It seems they are taking a more *generic* approach to the term *pastor* and are considering that, if you minister in any way, e.g., teach a Sunday School class, lead worship, etc., that you can, at the senior pastor's discretion, have the title *pastor* follow your name (like on official literature of that local church, e.g.). The ordained ministers have "Reverend" by their name, and these church members/workers have "Pastor".

 

This is just plain wrong to me. Not to mention a lie as well as deceitful. The potential ramifications could be quite serious. Just imagine someone talking to one of these *pastors" thinking that they really are a trained pastor and thinking there is confidentiality, just to find out they aren't. And what about those pastors who truly are trained - who diligently studied and fulfilled the requirements of their denomination. Isn't this a slap in their face? What about Biblical standards? This is almost like saying that the assistants to a lawyer can slap the title *lawyer* beside their name simply because they *practice* law by virtue of assisting the lawyer. If the world understands that people in various professions must have certified training in order to wear the title, why is the church suddenly saying the opposite?

 

When questioned about this, the answer from the hierarchy was that this is the *trend* and that *all the churches* are doing this now. :001_huh:

Maybe they meant *all the churches* in this particular denomination? :huh: It definitely ain't happenin' in the church I go to nor any of the sister churches.

 

...I don't want to start an argument - really, I don't . . . but does this *trend* concern you? And have you heard of this? Is this happening in your church?

 

I am purposely not mentioning any denomination, but to say the least, I am shocked and disappointed.

 

I've never heard of this. I don't see it ever happening at our church, either. If it did, we'd be gone.

:iagree:

[LarlaB]

When we were in ministry, that's pretty much how it was done in that church- however, those given the label 'pastor' had to have training, ordination etc.

 

For example, my DH was 'pastor of small groups' and oversaw 10 couples who were zone leaders and each had 4-6 small groups under their care. parse that out, and that's several hundred people under DH's 'care'. DH was directly responsible for any & every thing that happened in a small group and was very much a 'pastor'- teaching, funerals, counseling and all...

 

There was also a pastor of Missions, Worship Pastor, Teaching Pastor, Childrens Pastor, Youth Pastor and so on-the same was true for most of them given the size of the church each pastor had significant responsibilities and training. There was a Sr. Pastor who did most of the preaching, and then there were many volunteers who were called leaders, coordinators etc. This was a church of 2000 people....

[Joanne]

The church I grew up in (nondenom, modern, trendy) is kind of like this I think. In the last few years they have begun hiring people and calling them "Pastor of Counseling", "Pastor of Discipleship" etc....

 

I am not sure why they do this but I guess that they feel these people are best trained in those areas and can best shepherd the people in regards to those areas so they call them pastor of whatever their special area is...

 

Not sure how I feel about it. The church I go to now would never do this. Which I am glad about as it is not my cup of tea but I am not angry about it. I do think it's funny when my mom will tell me they hired a new pastor and I'll ask for what and anymore the titles are getting pretty obscure or they have several people with the same title (specifically for counseling)...

 

And that is where I take issue. ;) I think that counselor, as a title, should be reserved for trained, licensed individuals.

 

As for the Pastor title, I remember in my mainline PC USA church in Arizona, the Pastor interchanged a term, calling all members Pastor (or Ministers, I can't remember) and listing himself as the other. He felt that the title/term spoke to the way all members should frame their relationship to each other and the world.

[8circles]

I haven't seen this personally. Its flat-out deception. I was the custodian for a time at our church. Would I have been the Pastor of Toilets?

[FO4UR]

I have lived in several different states and have seen a lot of churches.

 

 

You will find very small churches who hire a pastor with absolutely no education/training whatsoever. These scare me. Lots of personal opinion passed off as gospel truth...little knowledge of how to read a book and discuss the author's intent...let alone have a theological and biblical study.

 

 

You will find large churches with 12 Pastors+ who all have Master's Degrees (at least!), and yes...a Master's or Dr. in Counseling is generally one of those Pastors.

 

 

You will also find medium sized churches with Sr. Pastor, and several "ministers." The ministers may not be ordained, and are always under the direct leadership of the Sr Pastor. Youth ministers, Children's' Ministers, and Music ministers being the most popular. These people have a gifting for a specific area and are often in the midst of going through seminary in order to fulfill a call into the ministry.

 

 

 

These are the kinds of things I would look at first before joining a church.

 

 

The ordination process sounds like it's given little reverence in the OP's church. THAT, I have a major problem with! It is - should be - a quite stringent process. #1 - to make sure the person's beliefs are in harmony with the denomination. and #2 - to test the knowledge and wisdom of the person. Ordination should mean something. I do know of ordained people who do not have advanced ministry degrees...but these are people who self-educate in theology at a uniquely intense level. (...and I know people with seminary degrees that know little...again, that ordination process needs to have a level of integrity.)

[Little Nyssa]

You'll never find that at an EO church.

 

However, if I belonged to another church, I wouldn't mind it PROVIDED that there was clear communication about what the term meant, what authority the person had, and what training he/she had.

[Dustybug]

Pretty common in Southern Baptist churches. My dad, who had absolutely no formal training, became an ordained minister/pastor in the SBC. Most SB pastors I knew had no sort of training when they became ordained. They may have taken a seminary extension class here and there, but no real, formal training. I left the SBC.

 

Now we attend an LCMS church. It takes forever for someone to become a pastor. I like it that way.

 

This is not the same thing as giving anyone who leads a class, etc., the title of pastor. My FIL was ordained as a Reverend in the SBC and he has had no formal education, but he leads his church quite well.

 

I have lived in several different states and have seen a lot of churches.

 

 

You will find very small churches who hire a pastor with absolutely no education/training whatsoever. These scare me. Lots of personal opinion passed off as gospel truth...little knowledge of how to read a book and discuss the author's intent...let alone have a theological and biblical study.

 

 

You will find large churches with 12 Pastors+ who all have Master's Degrees (at least!), and yes...a Master's or Dr. in Counseling is generally one of those Pastors.

 

 

You will also find medium sized churches with Sr. Pastor, and several "ministers." The ministers may not be ordained, and are always under the direct leadership of the Sr Pastor. Youth ministers, Children's' Ministers, and Music ministers being the most popular. These people have a gifting for a specific area and are often in the midst of going through seminary in order to fulfill a call into the ministry.

 

 

 

These are the kinds of things I would look at first before joining a church.

 

 

The ordination process sounds like it's given little reverence in the OP's church. THAT, I have a major problem with! It is - should be - a quite stringent process. #1 - to make sure the person's beliefs are in harmony with the denomination. and #2 - to test the knowledge and wisdom of the person. Ordination should mean something. I do know of ordained people who do not have advanced ministry degrees...but these are people who self-educate in theology at a uniquely intense level. (...and I know people with seminary degrees that know little...again, that ordination process needs to have a level of integrity.)

 

The bolded is not always true. Many people don't believe that you must have a college degree or extensive training to preach the Word of God because we believe that if God chooses a man and calls him to preach, then He will also reveal His word to him. While there may be churches that have men who do spread opinion as gospel, that happens in churches even with men who have been "trained correctly."

 

ETA: I am not SB and I do attend a church whose pastor went to Bible college.

[JenniferB]

I have not experienced that leadership structure. It isn't surprising to me though. It seems a natural "evolution" of things.

[shinyhappypeople]

At the church we recently left there was the Senior Pastor who preached, the Executive Pastor who handled the day to day management issues, the Pastor of Spiritual Development (kind of a redundant title, eh?) who is in charge of small group type things and Youth Pastor. All are educated, ordained people. I find the idea of Executive Pastor rather stupid. Why tack "pastor" on to his title??

[Heather in Neverland]

Yes, I've seen that, as well as persons giving themselves the title of Apostle or calling themselves a prophet. :001_huh:

.

 

I've seen this too and I think it is ridiculous to be honest as well as unbiblical. I would go to a different church.

 

 

.

[Elizabeth in MN]

It could be for legal reasons, to allow churches to hire and fire according to their beliefs. The title "pastor" might put the person under a different set of employment rules. Separation of church and state and all that.

 

Exactly this. There was a Supreme Court case about this last Fall. Let me Google... ah yes, the "ministerial exclusion" rule. The news report I saw was on Religion and Ethics Newsweekly. I don't want to link to one news report about it because it'd show my political bias, but there are LOTS of reports out there about it.

 

Simply put, I don't cotton to it. I know separation of church and state is hard, but to me the definition of a minister in each religion/denomination is pretty clear.

[tabinfl]

As for the Pastor title, I remember in my mainline PC USA church in Arizona, the Pastor interchanged a term, calling all members Pastor (or Ministers, I can't remember) and listing himself as the other. He felt that the title/term spoke to the way all members should frame their relationship to each other and the world.

 

That is what our (PCUSA) church does. The bulletin lists "Ministers: All members of the church" and then our Pastors. I don't follow these thigns too closely, but I recall some talk of the General Assembly changing the Pastor title to 'Teaching Elder'. I must say that the pastors at my church fit that title very well, they know as well as anyone else that they're not really in charge of anything. :)

[Entropymama]

We are in a non-denominational charismatic church and only ordained, paid staff members are pastors.

[Kathryn]

I've never heard if that and it definitely wouldn't be happening in my denomination. I come from an extremely long line of seminary-trained ministers. My grandfather was an important figure in the clinical pastoral education movement and ensuring that all graduates of his seminary had CPE training (I don't want to write his name and have it come up in searches, but he's the second one profiled in this article). I, too, find the implications for counseling disturbing.

[DawnM]

Never heard of this in SB churches either. Friends are married to SB pastors and ALL of them have not only a 4 year college degree but have full seminary training.

 

I am not officially SB but I have attended a SB church for a few years and the pastor and all the pastoral staff also had a 4 year degree as well as seminary training before getting the job.

 

I have no idea where you had these experiences with the SB but I have never heard of them in my experience with the SB church.

 

Dawn

 

 

Pretty common in Southern Baptist churches. My dad, who had absolutely no formal training, became an ordained minister/pastor in the SBC. Most SB pastors I knew had no sort of training when they became ordained. They may have taken a seminary extension class here and there, but no real, formal training. I left the SBC.

 

Now we attend an LCMS church. It takes forever for someone to become a pastor. I like it that way.

[In the Rain]

Yes, I've noticed that trend. I have to say though, that the title of "Pastor" wouldn't lead me to blindly confide in someone, so I'm not worried about that aspect of it. We're all human, and some people are better at keeping confidences than others. ;) People should always be discerning in who they choose counsel from.

 

More than anything else, it seems like a potential insult to those who have earned the degree. But there are plenty of private school teachers without degrees and certification, so I guess it is no different.

 

I guess it doesn't bother me after all, other than it sounds silly. :tongue_smilie:

[bolt.]

The "people who have diligently studied" etc seem to have finally realized that or Churches have frequently been used the word "Pastor" wrongly. In the Bible it is rarely used and discribes a gift/function, not a title/position. I'm pleased to hear that pastoral gifts and functions in Churches are becoming more widely recognized as far as the titles that our culture insists on.

 

Anyone who pastors is a pastor. Many people pastor... At least in healthy Churches they do.

 

... Not that mistakes don't get made if people aren't careful about this stuff. I'm more focused on the differences between the Biblical word use and our vernacular use of it. I'd love to see them closer, but I'm sure it won't be ideal.

Edited September 24, 2012 by bolt.

[Parrothead]

Hmmm.... Interesting. Strange, but interesting. (Yeah, I'm weird that way.)

 

It is not something that would be happening in my church.

[Heather in Neverland]

The "people who have diligently studied" etc seem to have finally realized that or Churches have frequently been used the word "Pastor" wrongly. In the Bible it is rarely used and discribes a gift/function, not a title/position. I'm pleased to hear that pastoral gifts and functions in Churches are becoming more widely recognized as far as the titles that our culture insists on.

 

Anyone who pastors is a pastor. Many people pastor... At least in healthy Churches they do.

 

... Not that mistakes don't get made if people aren't careful about this stuff. I'm more focused on the differences between the Biblical word use and our vernacular use of it. I'd love to see them closer, but I'm sure it won't be ideal.

 

Actually that is not correct. "Pastor" (or overseer) is one of two offices named in the new testament so it is definitely more of a title/position whereas teacher, minister, Etc. are part of the list of spiritual gifts.

 

 

.

[TravelingChris]

We have pastors who are the people who lead services and are ordained. WE have several ministers like Minister of Music, who has advanced degrees but not in theology, but rather in music and the Director of Childrens' Ministry. We also normally have a youth minister or pastor (not sure of the title) but currently we have a temporary one who is just out of college and is not referred in the same manor. I am not sure whether the youth pastor or minister is usually ordained or not. I think often they are either newly ordained or in the process of becoming ordained. None of the Sunday School teachers are called pastors. Some are elders or deacons but others are not. HOwever we just call them by their names, not titles anyway.

[Cricket]

This is not the same thing as giving anyone who leads a class, etc., the title of pastor. My FIL was ordained as a Reverend in the SBC and he has had no formal education, but he leads his church quite well.

 

 

 

The bolded is not always true. Many people don't believe that you must have a college degree or extensive training to preach the Word of God because we believe that if God chooses a man and calls him to preach, then He will also reveal His word to him. While there may be churches that have men who do spread opinion as gospel, that happens in churches even with men who have been "trained correctly."

 

ETA: I am not SB and I do attend a church whose pastor went to Bible college.

 

:iagree: I grew up in a denominaton that ordained "reverends" (those who had a degree from a seminary) and licensed "pastors" (those without a degree). My dad was licensed. He never received any formal training but did go through an evaluation. He is extremely well read and knows the Bible front to back. I'd trust his interpretation and application of Scripture over some ordained reverends I've met. :)

 

We attend an independent church now. We refer to the small group of four men who lead the church as elders, not pastors. Two of the four preach regularly. I know one of them graduated from seminary but, now that I think about it, I don't know if the other one did or not.

Edited September 24, 2012 by Cricket

[bolt.]

Actually that is not correct. "Pastor" (or overseer) is one of two offices named in the new testament so it is definitely more of a title/position whereas teacher, minister, Etc. are part of the list of spiritual gifts.

Respectfully, I beg to differ:

 

Please note the following Greek words and their New Testament usage:

 

Pomeneas = shepherd = pastor. Found in Eph 4:11, a list of gifts and/or functions of the Church, alongside the gift/function of teaching.

 

Episkopois = supervisor = overseer (also often called 'bishop'). Found in Phil 1:1, 1 Tim 3:1-2. Titus 1:7, in the context of an official leadership position (which we might call an ‘office’ but the NT does not).

 

Diakonos = minister = servant (also, the basis of our use of the word 'deacon'). Speaks of one’s relationship to Jesus, as His servant. Not found in any list of gifts or ‘offices’.

[sassenach]

Respectfully, I beg to differ:

 

Please note the following Greek words and their New Testament usage:

 

Pomeneas = shepherd = pastor. Found in Eph 4:11, a list of gifts and/or functions of the Church, alongside the gift/function of teaching.

 

Episkopois = supervisor = overseer (also often called 'bishop'). Found in Phil 1:1, 1 Tim 3:1-2. Titus 1:7, in the context of an official leadership position (which we might call an ‘office’ but the NT does not).

 

Diakonos = minister = servant (also, the basis of our use of the word 'deacon'). Speaks of one’s relationship to Jesus, as His servant. Not found in any list of gifts or ‘offices’.

 

What about presbyteros? That is the office of elder/pastor, the qualifications for which can be found in 1 Timothy.

[OnTheBrink]

I've never heard of this and it most certainly would NOT fly at my church at all.

 

We have one pastor, one youth pastor, one counseling pastor and a board of elders. There are Sunday School directors/superintendents, but they are not, nor ever will be, called pastors.

[PeacefulChaos]

I recently heard something that just simply floored me, especially since, not long after, I learned of (and was presented with the proof) of specific examples where it really is happening. Churches of various denominations are now considering *workers* in the church to be *pastors*. :ohmy: It seems they are taking a more *generic* approach to the term *pastor* and are considering that, if you minister in any way, e.g., teach a Sunday School class, lead worship, etc., that you can, at the senior pastor's discretion, have the title *pastor* follow your name (like on official literature of that local church, e.g.). The ordained ministers have "Reverend" by their name, and these church members/workers have "Pastor".

 

This is just plain wrong to me. Not to mention a lie as well as deceitful. The potential ramifications could be quite serious. Just imagine someone talking to one of these *pastors" thinking that they really are a trained pastor and thinking there is confidentiality, just to find out they aren't. And what about those pastors who truly are trained - who diligently studied and fulfilled the requirements of their denomination. Isn't this a slap in their face? What about Biblical standards? This is almost like saying that the assistants to a lawyer can slap the title *lawyer* beside their name simply because they *practice* law by virtue of assisting the lawyer. If the world understands that people in various professions must have certified training in order to wear the title, why is the church suddenly saying the opposite?

 

When questioned about this, the answer from the hierarchy was that this is the *trend* and that *all the churches* are doing this now. :001_huh:

 

I don't want to start an argument - really, I don't . . . but does this *trend* concern you? And have you heard of this? Is this happening in your church?

 

I am purposely not mentioning any denomination, but to say the least, I am shocked and disappointed.

 

I have never heard of this!

And I would not approve at all if I had.

[bolt.]

What about presbyteros? That is the office of elder/pastor, the qualifications for which can be found in 1 Timothy.

 

I’m thinking you might be cross-referencing your Greek words accidentally. The qualifications given in 1 Tim 3 are for "Episkopois" (supervisor) and "Diakonos" (servant, which seems to be a specific 'position' in this context), not mentioning "Presbyteros". However, later, in 1 Tim 5, "Presbyteros" are mentioned (v. 1, v.17 and v.19) but there is not ‘list of qualifications’. Titus, James and 1 Peter also mention "Presbyteros", and there is a ‘list of qualifications’ in Titus.

Presbyteros is the Greek word for ‘older, elderly, senior’ – in the NT it is sometimes used (a) literally (people who are actually old), sometimes it is used (b) metaphorically (people who are mature in the faith, having ‘grown old’ since being ‘born again’), and © it sometimes has the sense of being a position (“elders who <lead / stand ahead / are upstanding / preside>” 1 Tim 17). It is used all three ways in the NT, and it is found in both the masculine and feminine form throughout the NT.

There is no reason to enmesh this plurality of words. In the NT, an elder is one thing, and a pastor is another. For a rough context-sensitive definition, elder means "person who is mature and respected, considered capable and well-trusted" whereas pastor means "person who provides care and instruction towards spiritual development in the context of a loving relationship" (and supervisor means "person who has been aknowledged a leader, who has status within the group, as well as duties and expectations")

In many situations *logic* tells us that we wouldn’t want a “pastor” that failed to be qualified also as an elder or a supervisor, which makes perfect sense – But the NT does not tell us that, therefore it is inaccurate to say something like, “The office of elder/pastor” as if they were inherently the same thing.