Shyness vs. Rudeness

[*********]

I heard a speaker several years ago when Zee was small. She was talking about how lots of children get a 'pass' on their rude behavior because adults will say 'Oh, he's just shy'. I found it interesting, as I had never heard that concept before. The example I remember the speaker using went like this:

 

Mom (Mrs. Jones) and child (Sally Jones) are out at the store. They run into Mrs. Smith, an adult the child knows; perhaps a family friend, a neighbor, etc. The point is, this is NOT a stranger to the child, or someone to whom the mom is introducing the child to for the first time.

 

Mrs. Smith: Oh hello Mrs. Jones, how are you today? Hi there Sally. My, don't you look darling in your cute pigtails! Are you enjoying your shopping with your mother?

 

Sally: Instead of looking at Mrs. Smith in the eye and at least smiling, Sally hides behind her mothers skirt and looks at the floor.

 

Mrs. Jones: Oh Sally, you needn't be so shy! We're doing great Mrs. Smith. How is Mr. Smith, blah blah blah.

 

Now, I *know* most of us have had this happen with at least one child. And I know it's a normal developmental thing. But the speaker suggested the following:

 

Instead of letting little Sally 'off' with just a 'you needn't be so shy', Mrs. Jones should get down to Sally's level, explain that when a grown up that you know speaks to you, you should look at their eyes and respond to their questions; that it's rude to hide behind mommy's skirt instead of doing those things. Then, have Sally look Mrs. Smith in the eyes, and at the very least, give a smile. With practice, Sally should be able to say hello, answer questions, etc.

 

It was kind of eye-opening for me at the time, because I had just been letting the boys do the whole 'hide behind me, stare at the floor' thing, and not thinking to train them out of their shyness so that it didn't become rudeness.

 

I'm glad to say both boys now are quite good at the eye contact/conversation/smiling thing.

 

So, any thoughts? Do you think my boys would have 'grown out of it' on their own without any training, or for some kids, does one need to be intentional that their 'shyness' does not turn to rudeness?

 

Just pondering this today. :001_smile:

[Joker]

I was so shy as a kid and my parents were not happy and forced the issue. I remember being uncomfortable and unhappy. So, I didn't force the issue with my youngest who was this way and she grew out of it around eight years old.

[bnrmom]

I get what you and the speaker are saying, and could get on board with it in theory, but with some kids I would say "good luck with that." A friend of mine has a son who is now 11yo, and while I think he may have had some other sensitivity issues, he had extreme versions of the shy behavior you describe. There is no way on earth my friend could have forced him to smile and say hi without a huge major meltdown. Even now at his age this is sometimes an issue.

 

My younger son, who is 7yo, has also been a bit of a challenge with this. I don't say anything to him in the moment, but I have always talked with him about it later. I've probably had this discussion with over a hundred times by now. One in particular we struggle with is saying "thank you." When he was really little I would say it for him and then have the talk with him. We would practice. But when it came to other people, he just wouldn't say it. As he got a bit older he told me that it felt embarassing to him to say thank you. It drove me nuts, and we are finally at the point where he will say "thanks" but not "thank you." I think it sounds dismissive and insincere, and I've told him as much, but what am I supposed to do? I think it's more embarssing or impolite for the other person to stand there while I do battle with my kid to force him to say thank you instead of thanks.

 

You said yourself that your kids grew out of it and are now polite children. I think that it would been deterimental had you been more forceful in their interactions with other people. So I guess I'm somewhere in the middle. I don't believe in having the conversation with the child in front of the other person like the speaker suggests, but I do believe in having an ongoing conversation with the child about appropriate behavior, and letting them know what the expectations are.

[TranquilMind]

I heard a speaker several years ago when Zee was small. She was talking about how lots of children get a 'pass' on their rude behavior because adults will say 'Oh, he's just shy'. I found it interesting, as I had never heard that concept before. The example I remember the speaker using went like this:

 

Mom (Mrs. Jones) and child (Sally Jones) are out at the store. They run into Mrs. Smith, an adult the child knows; perhaps a family friend, a neighbor, etc. The point is, this is NOT a stranger to the child, or someone to whom the mom is introducing the child to for the first time.

 

Mrs. Smith: Oh hello Mrs. Jones, how are you today? Hi there Sally. My, don't you look darling in your cute pigtails! Are you enjoying your shopping with your mother?

 

Sally: Instead of looking at Mrs. Smith in the eye and at least smiling, Sally hides behind her mothers skirt and looks at the floor.

 

Mrs. Jones: Oh Sally, you needn't be so shy! We're doing great Mrs. Smith. How is Mr. Smith, blah blah blah.

 

Now, I *know* most of us have had this happen with at least one child. And I know it's a normal developmental thing. But the speaker suggested the following:

 

Instead of letting little Sally 'off' with just a 'you needn't be so shy', Mrs. Jones should get down to Sally's level, explain that when a grown up that you know speaks to you, you should look at their eyes and respond to their questions; that it's rude to hide behind mommy's skirt instead of doing those things. Then, have Sally look Mrs. Smith in the eyes, and at the very least, give a smile. With practice, Sally should be able to say hello, answer questions, etc.

 

It was kind of eye-opening for me at the time, because I had just been letting the boys do the whole 'hide behind me, stare at the floor' thing, and not thinking to train them out of their shyness so that it didn't become rudeness.

 

I'm glad to say both boys now are quite good at the eye contact/conversation/smiling thing.

 

So, any thoughts? Do you think my boys would have 'grown out of it' on their own without any training, or for some kids, does one need to be intentional that their 'shyness' does not turn to rudeness?

 

Just pondering this today. :001_smile:

I could not agree more with the idea not to give the kid a pass. He must communicate politely, if briefly (if he is not a talker, and some people just aren't). You can't give a kid a pass on this, especially past 4-5 years old or so.

 

It is a mistake, in my view. You speak and reinforce the concept over the child and it sets in, becoming part of the child's identity.

 

But it is also true that parents need to have social skills themselves to teach kids good social skills. My parents had great social skills and could talk to anyone. My Mom used to regularly be offered jobs when she was shopping, because she would start up conversations with people and recommend things for them and the owner would hear her and ask her to work there. I can talk to anyone because she modeled this behavior, Dad too, to a lesser degree. My husband's parents did not possess good social skills and I had to talk to him 20 times before he would speak to me (we met in law school).

 

So....when my son was little, people used to say this about him a lot and I would correct them on the spot. One day, my son, having heard it over and over, said to me, "I'm shy." I got this idea suddenly (God helped me, I think!), and said regretfully, "Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that. I know you like treats and shy kids don't get treats." It just came out. He thought about it a minute, and decided, "I am NOT shy!" This kid loves and lives for food.

 

And that was the end of that. He is probably more outgoing now than the oldest, though neither one is the life of the party, but both can initiate and carry on conversations, which is exceedingly important as an adult skill.

 

ETA: Read the other answers and it looks like we will have varied views!

Edited January 2, 2012 by TranquilMind

[Julie in CA]

I was so shy as a kid and my parents were not happy and forced the issue. I remember being uncomfortable and unhappy. So, I didn't force the issue with my youngest who was this way and she grew out of it around eight years old.

Please don't take this as criticism, but I'm wondering about your comments. There are things that I remember being uncomfortable and unhappy about as a child, but I don't necessarily equate that with things that I should have been allowed to avoid. I was uncomfortable and unhappy with doing speeches during English class in school, but my parents knew it was good for me, so they not only encouraged me to do it, but made sure that I did! I'm wondering if you have a way of differentiating between things that are uncomfortable but good, and uncomfortable and therefore should not be required. :bigear:

[ScoutTN]

I heard a speaker several years ago when Zee was small. She was talking about how lots of children get a 'pass' on their rude behavior because adults will say 'Oh, he's just shy'. I found it interesting, as I had never heard that concept before. The example I remember the speaker using went like this:

 

Mom (Mrs. Jones) and child (Sally Jones) are out at the store. They run into Mrs. Smith, an adult the child knows; perhaps a family friend, a neighbor, etc. The point is, this is NOT a stranger to the child, or someone to whom the mom is introducing the child to for the first time.

 

Mrs. Smith: Oh hello Mrs. Jones, how are you today? Hi there Sally. My, don't you look darling in your cute pigtails! Are you enjoying your shopping with your mother?

 

Sally: Instead of looking at Mrs. Smith in the eye and at least smiling, Sally hides behind her mothers skirt and looks at the floor.

 

Mrs. Jones: Oh Sally, you needn't be so shy! We're doing great Mrs. Smith. How is Mr. Smith, blah blah blah.

 

Now, I *know* most of us have had this happen with at least one child. And I know it's a normal developmental thing. But the speaker suggested the following:

 

Instead of letting little Sally 'off' with just a 'you needn't be so shy', Mrs. Jones should get down to Sally's level, explain that when a grown up that you know speaks to you, you should look at their eyes and respond to their questions; that it's rude to hide behind mommy's skirt instead of doing those things. Then, have Sally look Mrs. Smith in the eyes, and at the very least, give a smile. With practice, Sally should be able to say hello, answer questions, etc.

 

It was kind of eye-opening for me at the time, because I had just been letting the boys do the whole 'hide behind me, stare at the floor' thing, and not thinking to train them out of their shyness so that it didn't become rudeness.

 

I'm glad to say both boys now are quite good at the eye contact/conversation/smiling thing.

 

So, any thoughts? Do you think my boys would have 'grown out of it' on their own without any training, or for some kids, does one need to be intentional that their 'shyness' does not turn to rudeness?

 

Just pondering this today. :001_smile:

 

I agree with the speaker. I think it does take practice (lots of practice!) and time. And allowing for variations in personality and circumstances.

[ChristusG]

I struggle big time with this.

 

I am shy. I've always been shy. My girls are shy. My oldest was even diagnosed with selective mutism a few years ago.

 

I just never know what to do. Do I force the issue? I, too, tend to lean towards the fact that it is rude to refuse to speak to someone. Sometimes my girls will not even acknowledge the person speaking to them....won't even look at them. I've talked to them about it, I've offered rewards, etc. I don't know what to do. I cannot force them to speak.

 

Thing is....it is not just strangers. My kids are really REALLY shy. They've known my grandparents since they were born. We live in the same town and see them at least once or twice a month. And still, my girls won't really speak to them. The only people my girls speak to a lot (besides my husband and I, of course) are my parents, my two sisters, and their two cousins. Other than that, they won't hardly speak to anyone.

[Joker]

Please don't take this as criticism, but I'm wondering about your comments. There are things that I remember being uncomfortable and unhappy about as a child, but I don't necessarily equate that with things that I should have been allowed to avoid. I was uncomfortable and unhappy with doing speeches during English class in school, but my parents knew it was good for me, so they not only encouraged me to do it, but made sure that I did! I'm wondering if you have a way of differentiating between things that are uncomfortable but good, and uncomfortable and therefore should not be required. :bigear:

 

Yes, I have ways of differentiating but I didn't want to go into great detail. I don't feel that anything good or useful came out of them trying to force the issue. I also don't think anything they did changed the situations, they just made them more uncomfortable for everyone involved. I feel I grew out of it just as my younger dd has.

[Pretty in Pink]

I was a shy child. I do think that most people will outgrow that sort of behavior on their own. If my child were still doing it at 12 or 13 I would privately remind him that it's polite to look people in the eye when speaking, etc. I wouldn't pressure little kids, and I certainly wouldn't put them on the spot in public. If my young child doesn't feel close enough to someone to greet them warmly, without prompting, then I'm not going to force the issue.

[Julie in CA]

Yes, I have ways of differentiating but I didn't want to go into great detail.

Sorry, I just thought is was part of the discussion. :001_smile: Perhaps one of the other folks who feel this way would be willing to elaborate. I've pondered similar issues myself--when to require difficult things simply because they're good in the long run, and when to leave off and hope they pull out of it on their own.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Julie in CA

[merry gardens]

To me, it depends on the age. I'd excuse it in a three or four year old. Somewhere around 6-7, the parent may need to coach the child with comments like, "Say hello to Mrs. Smith." Then saying hello becomes a matter of obedience to mom and not just as a matter of politeness vs. shyness.

[MinivanMom]

I was a shy child. I do think that most people will outgrow that sort of behavior on their own. If my child were still doing it at 12 or 13 I would privately remind him that it's polite to look people in the eye when speaking, etc. I wouldn't pressure little kids, and I certainly wouldn't put them on the spot in public. If my young child doesn't feel close enough to someone to greet them warmly, without prompting, then I'm not going to force the issue.

 

:iagree:

 

I don't think there's one right answer to how this situation should be handled. I agree in theory that children should be taught to respond politely and make eye-contact. In practice, however, it's rude on the part of the parent to reprimand the child in front of the other adult. If the child is genuinely shy, then it will only embarrass them more to be reprimanded publicly. If there are actual social issues at play (anxiety, selective mutism, autism, etc) it becomes even trickier. A parent might not correct their child publicly, but that doesn't mean that they aren't teaching those skills at home or discussing the situation with their child afterwards.

 

In my experience, it is extroverted adults who are very quick to accuse shy children of being rude. They don't relate to what the child is going through, so they feel little sympathy. My position is this: You are the adult, so it is your responsibility to model polite behavior to the child and give the child the benefit of the doubt. Labeling a child as "rude" or publicly calling them out on their "rude" behavior is neither polite nor kind. My children aren't shy (far from it), but I always cringe when an adult (non-parent) is pushy or mocking towards a shy child.

[Pamela H in Texas]

I have always agreed it was rude. I coached my children on answering appropriately. My daughter is painfully shy and not particularly social; but that is not an excuse to be rude. My son is respectfully quiet so needed just minimal prompting. I am SO thankful that this is SO not a concern with my new kiddos. They are very friendly, outgoing, etc. If anything, I'll have to reign them in.

[meggie]

I am painfully shy in groups of people. I only do well one on one.

 

Pigby was painfully shy, as in covering his face and not talking to Grammy. With practice, he has made lots of practice, but still has a ways to go.

 

We practice with him in private, not in front of the people. And I dont tell him it's rude not to respond, I say It's polite to answer someone when they're talking to you. I have to reinforce looking at the person you're talking to and speaking loud and clear enough so they can hear you. We only work this in baby steps. I don't think this is too overwhelming for him. It's taken a few years, but he is getting better and doesn't seem to be scared by it and I've never put him down because of it. I have stopped using, "He's shy" as a reason to let him get out of talking with people who are talking to him. Now I just coach him through it and figure with practice, he'll keep making prigress

[ktgrok]

I think you can prompt the child to say "hello". I think saying it behind mom's skirt is probably fine. I think forcing a child to look an adult in the eyes if they are TRULY shy is not fair. My son wasn't diagnosed with Aspergers until he was 11. Had I forced him to do these things earlier it would have traumatized him. He just wasn't capable. It is STILL hard, at 12. But he tries, and is getting REALLY good at it.

 

Now, some kids are doing this to be silly, or as a power play, and I think it is possible to tell those kids what to do. But again, I'd probably just say "Mrs. So and So just said hi to you. You need to say Hello back." Same as telling them to say please or thank you. But they don't have to be social, smile, etc if they are truly scared.

[mom2scouts]

I was a very shy child and understand how uncomfortable it can be. I also have a child who does this. I often have to prompt him to reply and then we later talk about how rude it is not to reply when someone he knows talks to him. He's slowly getting better, but we're not even close to getting him to look someone in the eye. Right now, even having him say "hi" or "I'm OK" is progress and we'll just keep working on it.

[Aurelia]

Some children will outgrow it without directly addressing it, others will not. I was in the latter category, and had to be trained. My first job, at age 18, was in retail and for my first several weeks was to stand at the front of the store and greet people as they walked in. It was agonizing. For days, every time someone walked by, my blood pressure would spike and I would be dizzy and anxious. Ultimately, I am grateful for it because I can talk to people and make eye contact, when I couldn't before. Seriously, it was as if I was being physically prevented from speaking. It's like most skills - practice makes perfect. I can talk to virtually anyone now without anxiety. I just wish my parents would have done more to help me in that regard as I was growing up, as my shyness made things more difficult for me.

[Ellie]

I think Mrs. Jones should not tell her daughter that she is shy. It gives Sally permission to be that way.

 

I think that the discussions about social behavior should take place at home, with lots of practice on making eye contact and whatnot, so that when it happens in public, Sally is not caught offguard but can find in herself the proper behavior. She doesn't need to hug everyone, engage in long conversations, or greet strangers at the mall as if they are long-lost friends. When she's with her parents, and her parents are being friendly to strangers, then she can know those people are safe at that moment.

[gardenmom5]

I get what you and the speaker are saying, and could get on board with it in theory, but with some kids I would say "good luck with that." A friend of mine has a son who is now 11yo, and while I think he may have had some other sensitivity issues, he had extreme versions of the shy behavior you describe. There is no way on earth my friend could have forced him to smile and say hi without a huge major meltdown. Even now at his age this is sometimes an issue.

.

 

:iagree: I have an aspie - before he was diagnosed, I had adults and other chlidren be rude to him because he was so "shy" (part of his diagnosis is anxiety disorder.). even since his diagnosis, I've had to deal with adults who think because he "looks" normal, he should act normal. (whatever that means)

 

we need to consider the child in question. this is not a "one size fits all".

 

eta: one of the things I had to work on him with - and it took months - was "when you open the door (which he raced to do), you may say "hello". You many not shoot them, yell bang, and slam the door in their face.

[JVA]

We saw this with our twins (first borns) and # 3- who was naturally shy. The twins just used to want to 'hide' together..... However, #4 and #5 were/are EXTROVERTS that needed reigning in!

 

We role-played how to respond to greeting people with these points in mind:

 

-We never know who or when we'll run into someone- so it's not something that can be predicted

-Acting shy can be interpreted as rude so the minimum was required: eye-to-eye contact, and hello and a smile.

- If they were asked something, (like how old are you? what's your favorite color? etc...) they had to answer the question

-We used masks, funny voices and other 'props' to help them be more comfortable with surprises.

-They were not required to hug anybody and I never let anyone touch them- that would have freaked out our dd.

-Sometimes, when we'd role play, we'd have THEM be the acquaintance at the store- that way they could try to get an idea of the other side.

 

I realize some people are shy and talking is hard. For the minimum, all children need to be able to greet and participate in some kind of small talk. It's one of those social skills we thought was our job to teach them. It really irritated me that some friends allowed their children to avoid responding- I don't think it does them any favors. I'm not naturally shy, so I cut some slack for those who are but there are minimums. I didn't want to contribute to a possible negative impression of homeschoolers also.

[Parrothead]

:iagree:

 

I don't think there's one right answer to how this situation should be handled. I agree in theory that children should be taught to respond politely and make eye-contact. In practice, however, it's rude on the part of the parent to reprimand the child in front of the other adult. If the child is genuinely shy, then it will only embarrass them more to be reprimanded publicly. If there are actual social issues at play (anxiety, selective mutism, autism, etc) it becomes even trickier. A parent might not correct their child publicly, but that doesn't mean that they aren't teaching those skills at home or discussing the situation with their child afterwards.

 

In my experience, it is extroverted adults who are very quick to accuse shy children of being rude. They don't relate to what the child is going through, so they feel little sympathy. My position is this: You are the adult, so it is your responsibility to model polite behavior to the child and give the child the benefit of the doubt. Labeling a child as "rude" or publicly calling them out on their "rude" behavior is neither polite nor kind. My children aren't shy (far from it), but I always cringe when an adult (non-parent) is pushy or mocking towards a shy child.

:iagree:If I were Mrs. Smith I'd be bothered more by Junior getting reprimanded in front of me/in public than if Junior just hides behind mom's skirt.

[Paige]

I think a prompt from the mother in front of the adult friend is fine. Any more pressure on the child in the moment, IMO, is far more rude than the child's rudeness. I don't think the child should get a pass, but the parent should address it away from the other people and perhaps work on a plan for future encounters. It is horrible, as the friendly adult, to witness a parent trying to force the child to say hello or be polite. I have 2 very shy children who would not speak to anyone for a long time. I think it is rude, but trust me, they will be ruder if I push it in public. The kids will cry. It will become more obvious to the observer that the children do not want to acknowledge them and the encounter will escalate and be far more uncomfortable for all parties because the parent decided to force the issue. I have heard parents say, "Say hello to Mrs. X right now or you're going to get it!" Um....I'd really much rather talk to the adult and let the child ignore me than witness any of that.

[zaichiki]

To me, it depends on the age. I'd excuse it in a three or four year old. Somewhere around 6-7, the parent may need to coach the child with comments like, "Say hello to Mrs. Smith." Then saying hello becomes a matter of obedience to mom and not just as a matter of politeness vs. shyness.

 

So then what do you do if the child responds by hiding more. Or looking down. Or hiding his/her face. (This is my ds6).

 

Do you, right there in front of Mrs. Smith, threaten him with a consequence? Do you try to bribe him by offering a treat? Do you leave the store, go home, and put him in his room? Do you continually do this with children who are less confident about talking to others in public?

 

The real problem is this -- what if this doesn't work? What if it doesn't change his behavior and only intensifies his feelings? What if it begins to erode your relationship with the child?

 

I have 4 kids. One has always been uber UN-shy. She would have gone home with anyone in the supermarket, even right during that 9-12 month baby period of shyness. She's never had a problem talking to strangers. That's just the way she's made.

 

My two boys were happy to say hello to people they saw regularly (like neighbors and friends' parents), but wouldn't make eye contact with strangers or even acquaintances at the store. They needed to warm up to family they hadn't seen in a few months or more. My 12 year old has "grown out of it." He has never been as friendly with strangers/acquaintances as his sister. I feel like I have to accept individual differences and let them grow out of their shyness without making a big deal of it.

 

If I ask the 6 year old to say thank you to someone he sees as a stranger or apologize for accidentally bumping someone in the store, he'll often feel so embarrassed that he just wants to hide. Nothing I can do will change his mind. (I've tried quietly offering a bribe. I've also tried quietly threatening a consquence. Neither worked. At all. At home the promise of a treat or the warning of an impending consequence works right away with this child, though I am working at getting away from those approaches.) In public, when ds is feeling shy, there's not a thing I can do to make him look up, smile, and say something.

[Tammyla]

:iagree:

 

:iagree:If I were Mrs. Smith I'd be bothered more by Junior getting reprimanded in front of me/in public than if Junior just hides behind mom's skirt.

[MrsMe]

I would disagree with doing that to the child in front of the person. Perhaps at home and see how it goes next time. I never force my child to talk to someone they don't want, friend or stranger. They will warm up in their own time. Perhaps its your friend, not your child's friend.

 

As someone who was painfully shy as a child, my mom would chastise me and tell me how embarrassed she was by my behavior. I vowed not to do this to my own. I would also tell my friend in private that "(said child) is shy and give her time to warm up to you on her own time."

[MrsH]

My son is one of those kids who does NOT respond well to being told to interact with someone. In the moment, I usually say "it looks like you don't want to talk right now, it's ok to say "I don't want to talk right now." Then I chat with the adult for a few minutes. I think that IS ok to say, which some might disagree with. At home, we do talk about encounters and more polite ways of handling them. I have been trying since he came home to us at 2.5 (now almost 6) to understand why he won't talk to some people, but have made no progress in that department.

 

Something that hasn't been mentioned yet and is important to me, is that sometimes a child doesn't want to talk to a person because they perceive that person's inauthenticity or insincerity. When an adult goes all drooly and baby on my kids, I can't blame them for not wanting to talk to that adult. I wouldn't either. Similarly, there's a guy in the neighborhood who gives me the creeps. I try to avoid talking to him and am a lot less warm and polite than I am to anyone else. I want my kids to be discerning about that as well.

 

I agree withe posters who said that the discussion (and possibly reprimanding) happen at home, allowing the child to try and verbalize what the experience was like for him/her and why s/he didn't want to engage with the adult in that moment.

[zaichiki]

And I dont tell him it's rude not to respond, I say It's polite to answer someone when they're talking to you. I have to reinforce looking at the person you're talking to and speaking loud and clear enough so they can hear you. We only work this in baby steps. I don't think this is too overwhelming for him. It's taken a few years, but he is getting better and doesn't seem to be scared by it and I've never put him down because of it. I have stopped using, "He's shy" as a reason to let him get out of talking with people who are talking to him. Now I just coach him through it and figure with practice, he'll keep making prigress

 

:001_smile: I like the idea of mentioning what is *polite* to do instead of saying someone is being rude or shy. I try very hard not to refer to my boys as "shy" because I do think it is something they will grow through and I don't want them self-identify as "shy" therefore limiting themselves in the future.

[Laura Corin]

Calvin grew out of it. I'm glad I didn't force it when he wasn't ready.

 

Laura

[Rebecca VA]

I think it's important for the child to *somehow* acknowledge the adult in a semi-polite manner. Surely they can manage a little wave (even if they're looking at the ground while doing it), or whisper "hi," or something. That's not asking too much.

[Zebra]

Sometimes kids are better judges of character than we are. There are times when kids are picking up on something we are in denial about.

 

I am not really into forcing my child to be "polite". When she gets to know someone, and develops an actual bond with someone she trusts, she is polite.

 

I think it's kind of refreshing when children do this. They are being real. They are expressing normal healthy boundaries.

[Another Lynn]

I'm not really up on child development theories, but is it possible that "small talk" is a skill that comes later? And for some children if they don't understand the purpose, then they aren't comfortable immitating the adult behavior. And if that's true, would we call a child rude if he wasn't driving a car and reciting multiplication? (Ducking incase anyone throws tomatoes).

 

I agree with others who have said forcing it doesn't help and working on it at home, privately and with role playing are better ideas. And I agree with Mrs. H about children sensing the inauthenticity of the adult and not wanting to respond, etc.

[Laurie4b]

Honestly, my first reaction is how very rude to Mrs. Smith it is for Mrs. Jones to make a big deal out of a developmentally normal thing. I would be embarrassed if I were Mrs. Smith in this scenario. I've had this happen and wonder why the Mrs. Joneses think I would like the forced responses of their children. I am not at all put off by children not answering--that is just what happens sometimes. I would feel awful if it looked like it was possible that my greeting was going to turn into a discipline situation because what is the parent going to do who is determined to "train" if a child refuses? Ugh. It is much more appropriate, imo, for the parent to 1)prompt the child gently once and then explain that s/he is shy if a response isn't forthcoming, 2) coach the child afterward for the next time and 3) perhaps to prompt the child as Mrs. Smith approaches in the future.

 

Interestingly, I've noticed that it not a social demand for adults to chat with children when greeting/chatting with their parents; most don't. Those who do like children and are tolerant of them. When the Mrs.Johnsons of the world who merely greet the Mrs. Joneses while ignoring their children, we do not think it's appropriate to embarrass the Mrs. Johnsons by pointing out how the children were not greeted as well.

 

But to answer your question, I don't think it's necessary to push it. I don't think it's pushing it for a parent to perhaps try to get the child to answer by a prompt, but then explaining that the child is shy is plenty. A response does not need to be forced.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Laurie4b

[ravinlunachick]

I agree with ktgrok.

 

I'd also add that while most NT (neurotypical) kids should be expected to respond in some manner, eye contact can vary by culture. Not everyone stares at the speaker, especially if the speaker is an adult talking to a child. I encountered this a lot while teaching. You'd be surprised how many people get angry at kids for not looking them in the eyes, without ever considering that they may have been taught specifically to NOT look in the eyes of an adult.

[OrganicAnn]

I have read some about shyness. There is a professor who has studied it. he says that shyness is a series of coping behaviors. When a child or adult encounters a situation the person can respond in many different ways. A shy child or person will respond with hanging head, hiding behind mother, etc. Many kids will learn other responses that work better for them as they grow older and so the 'grow' out of their shyness. For shy adults, the professor had activities that helped you learn different responses.

 

Shyness and introverts were defined differently (but one could be both).

 

I think it is a good idea to help kids who are shy learn some behaviors that they can use successfully. I think it is like anything if you put too much pressure on a kid, it can backfire on you. If you do nothing, it could backfire and you may have a kid that does not deal well with social situation.

 

Simple things like practising "How are you" "I am fine" in a play situation can help a child.

 

I was a shy child, but my DD is not shy. I still coach her on how to respond to adults questions. Such as "There will be adults at dinner who will ask you 'how was Christmas' and 'What did Santa bring you?" so you might want to be ready with the answer." Before going to a birthday party I always coach her to say happy birthday to the birthday girl.

Edited January 4, 2012 by OrganicAnn

[Kathryn]

DS has high functioning autism. I let him know in no uncertain terms that his ignoring people who say hello or ask him questions is rude, it is not shy. Shy people don't want to draw attention to themselves. He draws more attention to himself by refusing to acknowledge the person speaking to him. Generally, the person tries over and over again to draw him into conversation (some even resort to "magic tricks" or tickling). He got much worse about this after hearing people constantly say, "oh, he must be shy." He thinks it's an excuse. I prompt him once to respond, to which he usually replies to me, "I'm shy." Then, I apologize to the person for his behavior and we discuss it later.

 

I was the same way as a child and I really wish I would have been pushed more into social interactions. I'm a very anti-social adult. I know what he's going through. It's not through lack of sympathy that I am a demanding parent. It's precisely because I know his struggles and I know how hard it will make things for him later on if he doesn't tackle things like this when he's young.

[Unicorn.]

I haven't read all of the replies, but consider this: Maybe the child is not comfortable around said person, for whatever reason. By telling and allowing a child to stay w/in their comfort zone, especially around adults, you are empowering them to say NO, if they ever find themselves around the wrong type of people, ie abusers.

 

By forcing a child to do something they are not comfortable w/ (and I'm not talking about giving a presentation in class, or their math), you are setting them up for the internal struggle of " I can't say no to this grown up, because it would be rude".

 

A couple of summers ago, dd's swim coach told me my dd was rude to her, and wanted to get out of the pool. I got upset w/ dd, until I found out that dd had seen lightening, tried to tell the coach, who blew her off. My kids have been told over and over to get out of the pool if there's lightening or thunder. Dd has a hard time standing up to adults in these situations because she has been taught "not to be rude". I wish we had let her hide behind the skirts more often. I always tell my kids now that they should never do anything that makes them uncomfortable, even if it means standing up to, or ignoring a grown up.

[swellmomma]

I was always very shy and my parents were big on what the article said, though not as gentle, it got to where my mom would tell me the script I was to follow, not as a way to help but to make sure I didn't embarass her further (her words). After whomever it was that spoke to me left I would be told how embarassing I was, how rude, etc. I went from being merely shy to having social anxiety. I have very few actual social skills now because I never know what to do. I am still a very shy person, and so then I worry that I am doing it all wrong. There is a fine line between training a child out of their shyness and creating an even worse situation than a perceived rudeness imo. Both of my boys are like me. I do not force it beyond telling them to say hi and then send them on their way. We had years where we would go to my folks for a gathering and as more people arrived he would hide away in a bedroom and quietly read or play. He has social anxieties and I would let him. He would come out and say hello, and again would say goodbye as the people left but I never forced an interaction beyond that. My mom would titter at me about it and how I was raising him to be rude, I disagree.

 

I also think that for some kids it is hard because you spend years teaching them not to speak to adults or strangers etc and then we tell them it is rude to not respond to an adult that spoke to them. I think I better way to handle it, if the person is perhaps someone that has been around but not frequently (such as a friend who comes over for coffee on occasion, but not around like an auntie), is for the parent to reintroduce the child to the person, such as "Sally, do you remember Mrs. X, she comes over for coffee sometimes and you talk about y with her?" At that point you can remind the child to say hello. I believe that even if someone comes around enough that the parents figure the kid should know them, the child can often not remember who that person is, and being forced to speak to them when they are a shy child is counterproductive without a proper introduction and reminder of who that person is. For example, my mom is best friend's with the woman in the house behind her's. The kids have seen this woman and her husband since they were babies at my mom's, but for a long time they didn't remember who they were so I would remind them that they did x magic trick with them, or they ate y together etc the last time they saw them. That was enough to open the flood gates of childhood memories and get them to talk to them. If I had not reminded them of who they were they would hide behind me or head for a different room etc.

[love2read]

Some of our children tried to get away with that and only one was shy. We practiced at home greeting people buy name-"Good morning Mrs. Smith" and making eye contact. Smile was optional in the beginning. Shy child was expected to learn it and she did by the time she was 4 or 5. After speaking she could then hide behind me, which she did.

[JennyD]

I tend not to think of little children as being so much 'rude' as being works in progress. (I still cherish the fading hope that other people cut me the same slack.)

 

My almost 4yo sometimes refuses to greet people, and I handle it the same way I handle his older brother's interrupting an adult conversation to deliver late-breaking news about the planet Neptune or whatever -- after the encounter is over, I bring it up and gently remind about what you're supposed to do in a social situation (i.e, say hello, wait until the adults stop talking). I figure that with another 40,000 or so repetitions, we'll be all set. :tongue_smilie:

[angela in ohio]

We consider it a rudeness issue, and we worked on it. With two of my dc, it was easier. My middle dd struggled with shyness and anxiety, but we were able to teach her to respond with some words and a smile. It was painstaking, let me tell you. :glare: We really emphasize how others feel with our dc, so we handled it from that angle: it makes people feel bad when you don't speak to them. I personally would prefer to be shy and not talk to many people, but that just doesn't work well. :D

 

We know one family who has many dc and none of them will speak to anyone, and the mom passes it off as shyness and "look how much they need me, they only speak to me." I always can't imagine what would happen if there was an emergency and their dc wouldn't be able to communicate. I think it's a safety issue.

[swellmomma]

We consider it a rudeness issue, and we worked on it. With two of my dc, it was easier. My middle dd struggled with shyness and anxiety, but we were able to teach her to respond with some words and a smile. It was painstaking, let me tell you. :glare: We really emphasize how others feel with our dc, so we handled it from that angle: it makes people feel bad when you don't speak to them. I personally would prefer to be shy and not talk to many people, but that just doesn't work well. :D

 

We know one family who has many dc and none of them will speak to anyone, and the mom passes it off as shyness and "look how much they need me, they only speak to me." I always can't imagine what would happen if there was an emergency and their dc wouldn't be able to communicate. I think it's a safety issue.

 

I think that many shy children even those that want to speak through a parent have no problem voicing something in an emergency. Or maybe it is only my kids. My 8 yr old prefers to speak through me, or have me answer questions for him. But when there has been emergencies at hand he had no problem announcing loud and clear what he wanted. Both times were due to broken bones, and he was very clear about announcing which bones were broken and that he wanted his mother. My oldest son the one I mentioned that hides away when people are around, has had no problem calling 911 and giving all appropriate information. He also has had no problem chosing a home to go to and ask for help when he was lost etc. (He found one with a basketball net because he figured they would have kids and would most likely be safe to ask for help). My daughter while she has no problem socializing with people has gotten away from an attempted kidnapper and got help, but then never said a word when a child molested her at day camp. This is my social butterfly kid and she panicked and didn't know what to do and never said a word until she got home at the end of the day. Whether or not they are shy, or perceived as rude that is not a way to gauge whether or not they will know what to do in an emergency and be able to act on it.

[Mommyof4ks]

I think age has a lot to do with it. I do not expect other people's 4 yr old to talk to me even if I know them. I am 5'4", and the kiddo is like 3 ft tall. I look like a giant, so I get that. I do find it rude when kids won't talk to me by 10 or 11. I was painfully shy as a child, and I still am shy and try reaaaaallllllly hard to put on my 'out in public' face when I go out. By 10 or so kids should no longer feel intimidated by adults IMO, and they should have learned to at least be polite and speak when spoken to if they do not want to initiate a conversation. I have found that most kids by 10 around here will at least say hi or answer questions, so I do not think that is too much to ask. This only applies to adults that the kids know, not to strangers. We do not force our kids to say anything to strangers, because we want them to follow their instincts about people they do not know, but we do not tell them not to talk to strangers either if that makes sense. ;)

 

Of course then there are kids like my boys (6 & 8) who will talk the ears off of anyone who will listen, and that is rude too, so we are working on that lol. I never would have guessed that two shy parents could produce two outgoing talkers. :001_huh:

[MistyMountain]

I was very shy as a child and I have one defitinely shy child and one who isn't shy but still can get intimidated by people he doesn't know and loud situations. They both are senstive to noise.

 

Forcing the issue right there does not work. It didn't work for me. It just made me more subconscious and it doesn't work for my kids. When people call my kids shy I say they just take time to warm up. I talk them about it afterwards and tell them it is ok to feel nervous but nervous is something we can overcome. My dd is noise sensitive and has emotional processing issues too. Forcing it would not go over well. I don't like it when really extroverted adults are really pushy and in their faces about it and keep going on about them being shy or not talking trying to force them to talk. That doesn't work. I do work on it but forcing it right in front of the adult they are nervous around does not work for my children. I don't like when people make a big deal about it or really interrogate dd.

 

I really want to help dd so she has a better experience then I did. She didn't even open up during her first 2 years of preschool. She has sensory issues and is introverted. I really hope she doesn't get bullied. Before I ran out of health insurance I was considering having her seen by an OT. When I was seeing one for my youngest the OT said that she could maybe benefit from it since her issues were impacting her more then my ds's sensory seeking issues were affecting him. She is getting much better about it then when she was younger but she still does need some work on it.

[Sputterduck]

Forcing very shy kids to not be shy is kind of cruel. They're not purposefully being rude to anyone... they're having a strong fear reaction.

 

I was extremely shy and all efforts to force me out of it caused me to retreat further into my shell.

[Dustybug]

I could not agree more with the idea not to give the kid a pass. He must communicate politely, if briefly (if he is not a talker, and some people just aren't). You can't give a kid a pass on this, especially past 4-5 years old or so.

 

It is a mistake, in my view. You speak and reinforce the concept over the child and it sets in, becoming part of the child's identity.

 

But it is also true that parents need to have social skills themselves to teach kids good social skills. My parents had great social skills and could talk to anyone. My Mom used to regularly be offered jobs when she was shopping, because she would start up conversations with people and recommend things for them and the owner would hear her and ask her to work there. I can talk to anyone because she modeled this behavior, Dad too, to a lesser degree. My husband's parents did not possess good social skills and I had to talk to him 20 times before he would speak to me (we met in law school).

 

So....when my son was little, people used to say this about him a lot and I would correct them on the spot. One day, my son, having heard it over and over, said to me, "I'm shy." I got this idea suddenly (God helped me, I think!), and said regretfully, "Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that. I know you like treats and shy kids don't get treats." It just came out. He thought about it a minute, and decided, "I am NOT shy!" This kid loves and lives for food.

 

And that was the end of that. He is probably more outgoing now than the oldest, though neither one is the life of the party, but both can initiate and carry on conversations, which is exceedingly important as an adult skill.

 

ETA: Read the other answers and it looks like we will have varied views!

 

I have only read the first page of posts because dinner is about to be done in the oven and I have to get off the computer but :iagree: with this. I was a shy kid and my oldest DD is taking after me, but this became a problem for DH and I. We started to feel it was giving a pass on rudeness, so now it is our rule for the child to answer any questions asked, but they do not have to have long drawn out conversations. They should also reach out to shake hands if it is offered them (this is usually only at church during fellowship time).

[KidsHappen]

Extroverted behavior is consider polite, introverted behavior is consider rude. Since there are more extroverts than introverts, they get to make the rules. Me personally, I find it quite distressing that we are trying change introverts inate personalities by bending young children to the socially acceptable norm. Some people are shy. Most of them will learn to cope and manage in their own ways over time without some extrovert telling them the correct way to do it. This is a case where I thoroughly support respecting your child's own personal core being and not trying to force them to be someone that they are not.

 

Could you imagine for just a moment the rules were reverse and the introverts were in charge and it was considered rude to talk to someone unless it was absolutely neccesary? If small talk was considered rude. If it was rude to intrude on a person's personal space and share your latest thought with them when they may be considering very important issues in their own life. My guess is that if you are an extrovert, no you can not. Hopefully, just one person has reconsidered that they personally may know the best way to fix introverts.

[MistyMountain]

Extroverted behavior is consider polite, introverted behavior is consider rude. Since there are more extroverts than introverts, they get to make the rules. Me personally, I find it quite distressing that we are trying change introverts inate personalities by bending young children to the socially acceptable norm. Some people are shy. Most of them will learn to cope and manage in their own ways over time without some extrovert telling them the correct way to do it. This is a case where I thoroughly support respecting your child's own personal core being and not trying to force them to be someone that they are not.

 

Could you imagine for just a moment the rules were reverse and the introverts were in charge and it was considered rude to talk to someone unless it was absolutely neccesary? If small talk was considered rude. If it was rude to intrude on a person's personal space and share your latest thought with them when they may be considering very important issues in their own life. My guess is that if you are an extrovert, no you can not. Hopefully, just one person has reconsidered that they personally may know the best way to fix introverts.

 

The US is a very extroverted country. I think I would get by much better in a country where extroversion was not valued and people were less extroverted.

[dirty ethel rackham]

Extroverted behavior is consider polite, introverted behavior is consider rude. Since there are more extroverts than introverts, they get to make the rules. Me personally, I find it quite distressing that we are trying change introverts inate personalities by bending young children to the socially acceptable norm. Some people are shy. Most of them will learn to cope and manage in their own ways over time without some extrovert telling them the correct way to do it. This is a case where I thoroughly support respecting your child's own personal core being and not trying to force them to be someone that they are not.

 

Could you imagine for just a moment the rules were reverse and the introverts were in charge and it was considered rude to talk to someone unless it was absolutely neccesary? If small talk was considered rude. If it was rude to intrude on a person's personal space and share your latest thought with them when they may be considering very important issues in their own life. My guess is that if you are an extrovert, no you can not. Hopefully, just one person has reconsidered that they personally may know the best way to fix introverts.

 

:iagree: Amen! While I think it is useful to practice social niceties at home, I think forcing adult behavior onto shy children is cruel. I was a shy child and was punished for not being an uber-extrovert like my mom. One particular person really gave me the willies and I could NOT make eye-contact with this person was was punished for it. It turned out that he was a pedophile. My willies were self-protection.

 

BTW, I have learned how to put on the "extrovert suit" when necessary, but it is exhausting - like "go to my cave for 3 days" exhausting. When I am tired, I have been known to take a circuitous route through the grocery store to avoid making small-talk, especially with people who make me uncomfortable.

[acurtis75]

I will admit to not reading every single reply but it seems that some consider politeness and being extroverted as the same thing. Speaking when spoken to is a politeness issue imho. I am naturally introverted but I don't think that gives me a pass for being rude. I also think that what is considered shyness in children can often time be overcome with proper training. I understand there are exceptions but for most children simply practicing (we do role-playing here) social politeness gets them over the hump and able to say hello to people. This isn't the same as being extroverted and striking up conversations on your own...it's just being polite.

 

FWIW my dd is naturally extroverted...talks to everyone, everywhere including strangers in line at the grocery store. This does not stop her from doing the same hide behind me, refusing to speak behavior described in this thread as being normal for shy children. She prefers to start the conversations and just chose not to be polite. We had to practice and role-play a lot to get her to speak when spoken to.

[momtokea]

Extroverted behavior is consider polite, introverted behavior is consider rude. Since there are more extroverts than introverts, they get to make the rules. Me personally, I find it quite distressing that we are trying change introverts inate personalities by bending young children to the socially acceptable norm. Some people are shy. Most of them will learn to cope and manage in their own ways over time without some extrovert telling them the correct way to do it. This is a case where I thoroughly support respecting your child's own personal core being and not trying to force them to be someone that they are not.

 

Could you imagine for just a moment the rules were reverse and the introverts were in charge and it was considered rude to talk to someone unless it was absolutely neccesary? If small talk was considered rude. If it was rude to intrude on a person's personal space and share your latest thought with them when they may be considering very important issues in their own life. My guess is that if you are an extrovert, no you can not. Hopefully, just one person has reconsidered that they personally may know the best way to fix introverts.

 

Great post and i completely agree. I was very shy as a child and I remember times when I was forced to speak and called rude I felt shame and it just made it worse. I outgrew it and can speak just fine now. I am, however, an introvert and prefer to stay quiet often.

 

Also, we are talking about a 4 year old child here. Seriously, get a grip people. Who cares if a 4 year old hides behind his mother? Why would anyone be offended by something that a 4 year old did?