Would you report a homeschooling family for educational neglect if...

[Lang Syne Boardie]

If these people are truly Vision Forum followers (instead of being "similar to Vision Forum in philosophy") then I would have a hard time believing that the kids are getting no intellectual stimulation outside of a short devotional. Of course, the OP has seen their house while I haven't, but looking at the VF catalog, the books are mostly of a language rich variety. History is valued. So are practical arts and math in the context of the family and business. It is true that I don't see anything of higher math or science in the catalog. But I wouldn't say the offerings in the catalog (which I would presume might show some insight into that subculture of thought) is anti-education. It actually is more in line with the more hardline classicists who spurn math and the sciences for the humanities.

 

I was wondering the same thing.

 

Perhaps the family is quasi-VF or using ATI material?

 

I wonder if the older children plan on career choices like armed forces, apprenticeship, entrepeneur (i.e. Josh Duggar inheriting Dad's Used Car biz w/ brother), or manual labor?

 

If they are ATI or VF, the patriarchal viewpoint is that the father provides for the family and the wife stays at home. Much like the Duggars. They expect the girls to stay at home until marriage. But even they encourage their girls to do online courses or volunteer with local fire department. :confused:

 

Posting and running, have to go to TKD, back later...

 

They are non-affiliated VF/ATI people. They didn't go to the Basic Seminar but they bought Wisdom Booklets curriculum (which they hated and never used). They don't go to a regular church, but most of their friends are in VF-style churches and environments. I think the Dad doesn't like being under the authority of a specific church.

 

If something happened to both parents the children would probably not go to public school. They'd probably go to relatives and friends, and most of them are homeschooling families. All those relatives and friends that I know of would provide a good education and home.

 

I had a few more posts I was going to answer, but I'm running late. BBL.

[cdrumm4448]

As long as there isn't emotional or physical neglect, what another family chooses to do is none of anyone else's business.

 

Their religion is irrelevant.

[Heather in Neverland]

As long as there isn't emotional or physical neglect, what another family chooses to do is none of anyone else's business.

 

Their religion is irrelevant.

 

:iagree:

 

I have seen well-educated children who are physically and emotionally abused. If these kids are healthy and loved then putting them into the foster system would be a terrible thing.

[Rebecca VA]

Being an illiterate hermit who avoids church membership is very far from the Vision Forum way. VF is highly pro-church membership (for accountability as well as fellowship). They encourage Christians to seek out like-minded fellow Christians. They encourage hospitality, long discussions and debates, and try to have wholesome, fun learning experiences.

 

Your friends sound a little odd -- and possibly paranoid -- but again, I think part of the story is missing.

[Donna]

I think it is difficult to not try to look at other people's lives through our own value system. Does what the family is doing look like neglect to me and do I think it is horrible? Yes but those are my values.

 

I deal with many different families through my work and have for over 16 years. Some of them may appear to neglect their children's development while still providing them food, shelter, love, etc...Those families often have other things that are foremost in their minds at the time like providing that food and shelter or dealing with an illness in the family or their own emotions concerning their child's delays. It may improve the child's potential if the parent were to follow through with the activities I suggest but it isn't my place to judge what they are doing with their child no matter how hard it might be for me to not do that. My job is simply to provide them with whatever knowledge I can and encourage them to follow through by developing a relationship with the family.

 

It there were abuse or neglect of the child's basic needs then reporting becomes the only choice.

 

I think the OP is in a similar position. If the children's basic needs are met and they are loved, it is not really her place to instill her value system in this family no matter how superior or more "right" we believe her values are. Add into the mix the knowledge that CPS often does a horrible job and reporting seems the greater of two "evils."

[chiguirre]

If something happened to both parents the children would probably not go to public school. They'd probably go to relatives and friends, and most of them are homeschooling families. All those relatives and friends that I know of would provide a good education and home.

 

I'm so glad to hear this. Do you know any of these people well enough to raise your concerns with them? Do you think their relatives might offer to help them teach the kids to read and master arithmetic? That could be the best practical solution to the situation.

 

:grouphug:

[happyhomemaker25]

These children would likely be removed from the home and put in foster care. This large of a group would almost certainly not be placed together. So, they would not only loose their parents, but their siblings as well.

 

Even if the foster placement were a good one, there wouldn't be the love of a family or even a permanent home. The older kids may stay in that situation until they aged out. The younger ones may eventually go back home at some point 6 months or more down the road after the parents go to parenting classes and agree to make modifications in their home and agree to continue sending the children to school. The children's relationships with each other and with their parents would likely be irreversibly broken.

 

This is the hesitation with reporting.

Mandy

 

Having seen the system this is what I'm afraid would happen. This could be more emotionally damaging to a child then lack of an education.

I'm sorry your dealing with this. It sounds sad.

[mommaduck]

Posting and running, have to go to TKD, back later...

 

They are non-affiliated VF/ATI people. They didn't go to the Basic Seminar but they bought Wisdom Booklets curriculum (which they hated and never used). They don't go to a regular church, but most of their friends are in VF-style churches and environments. I think the Dad doesn't like being under the authority of a specific church.

 

If something happened to both parents the children would probably not go to public school. They'd probably go to relatives and friends, and most of them are homeschooling families. All those relatives and friends that I know of would provide a good education and home.

 

I had a few more posts I was going to answer, but I'm running late. BBL.

Someone broke the rules. Those are not allowed to be sold or passed on. They are only allowed to be sold by ATI to ATI (Advanced Seminar) Alumni.

[mommaduck]

Being an illiterate hermit who avoids church membership is very far from the Vision Forum way. VF is highly pro-church membership (for accountability as well as fellowship). They encourage Christians to seek out like-minded fellow Christians. They encourage hospitality, long discussions and debates, and try to have wholesome, fun learning experiences.

 

Your friends sound a little odd -- and possibly paranoid -- but again, I think part of the story is missing.

:iagree:

[Twinmom]

To the unknowing neighbor, we could be accused of educational neglect of our twins. They are almost nine and cannot read fluently by any stretch of the imagination. They are probably a full grade level behind in math and we ate only formally teaching them handwriting, math, basic phonics and Bible right now. The twins are unruly little munchkins, are clearly behind others their age, are outside playing during school hours and play Wii Fit too much during the day. We are Christians but currently only home church. Would you (generic "you" here...not the OP) report me?

 

Without knowing a family intimately, it is hard to know why they make the choices they do. I have three boys who were adopted from a meth user and one girl with a brain injury of unknown origin (also adopted). My older two are taught a full curriculum, one in a private Christian school and one at home (the one at home tests in the gifted range). The twins, however, have neurodevelopmental brain delays and are like six year olds in big boy bodies. We have been asked by their doctor to teach only the very basics while they undergo Neurofeedback in order to help their brain development speed up. We cannot attend church be uase our daughter with the brain injury has a panic disorder and has massive

panic attacks in services. (poor baby...)

 

So, I know the situation is probably very different, but it does strike a cord with me because from the outside, we probably look very similar. There are many reasons why families make certain choices for their children. Unless you are intimately involved with the family ane are SURE you know what you are talking about, secure and loved children with good parents should be given the benefit of the doubt as long as possible. I am also a social worker and would report abuse in a heartbeat, but you also need to make sure you have all the facts.

[Twinmom]

Support and "educate" them stealthily until you do.

 

That was supposed to be the last line of my post, but said twin boys interrupted me and hit my iPad keyboard....:D. I can't edit for some reason!

[kiana]

To the unknowing neighbor, we could be accused of educational neglect of our twins. They are almost nine and cannot read fluently by any stretch of the imagination. They are probably a full grade level behind in math and we ate only formally teaching them handwriting, math, basic phonics and Bible right now. The twins are unruly little munchkins, are clearly behind others their age, are outside playing during school hours and play Wii Fit too much during the day. We are Christians but currently only home church. Would you (generic "you" here...not the OP) report me?

 

But you ARE teaching them phonics and handwriting. You're not just saying "Oh, I'm sure they'll pick it up when they're a teenager and ready." There are lightyears of difference.

[Guest submarines]

I think educational neglect ranks as a pretty seriously form of child abuse. Referring to this as "educational goals that do not match my own" rather trivializes the problem.

 

Bill

 

Daily Bible study (even if there's not organised curriculum going on) and math, and a later than average introduction to reading in an otherwise happy, well adjusted family, is not the educational neglect that warrants reporting. If you think it is, it is only because your educational goals do not match theirs and because your consider your educational goals superior to theirs.

 

What about a classically educated, above average in math child homeschooled in a white supremacist home? Certainly not educational neglect by your standards, but I'd be much more concerned about that child, than a child who learnes to read late and studies the Bible.

[Jennifer3141]

I don't think I would report this family but I absolutely could not have them in our lives. Raising your children to be ignorant is a deal breaker for me.

[Stacy in NJ]

of a productive or happy individual or family.

 

I believe a rigorous education is a beautiful and valuable thing, but it is not the most important aspect of human experience.

[SweetMissMagnolia]

:iagree: no

[Ellie]

I left out the part that probably explains all of this. They are a Vision Forum-type family, patriarchal Dad, submissive Mom, girls expected to live at home until they get married.

Yeah, I'd report them just for that. :glare:

 

Ok, probably not, but I'd think about it.

 

When we start contemplating "reporting" people for "educational neglect," we start down that slippery slope. One man's educational neglect is another's philosophy of education. A die-hard WTMer might think that a die-hard CMer was neglecting her children. I don't think we should go there.

[Parrothead]

 

 

 

I like this statement.. We, as homeschoolers, are so quick to throw it in the public school's face when they fail children, but when fellow homeschoolers fail their own children we like to sweep the dust under the rug because we don't want to have another judge tell us what we can and can't do with our kids.

 

But this can go two ways. I may get swept under the rug now, then in 10-15 years one of these kids from this family in question realizes how he/she has been gypped of an education and then works to make the laws in that particular state tougher for homeschoolers.

 

Then let's see the homeschoolers complaining about how someone should have stepped in to save this young person and his/her siblings. The law doesn't need to be changed. It just needs to be enforced. Yadda, yadda, yadda.

 

Conceivably either way someone could make it harder for homeschoolers in general in the state in question because of this family's educational neglect.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm with Bill. Something needs to be done to help this children. If it eventually comes to picking up the phone and making a call to the local school super or CPS then so be it. Removing the children is a last ditch effort by CPS, not the first thing they do. One would hope that the parents would follow the recommendations of the courts which would be to have the children's education be brought up to par. Only if the parents fight that then the children would be removed.

Edited December 3, 2011 by Parrothead

[Laura Corin]

The original law on home education in England (Scotland has different wording) demands that the education be suitable to their age, aptitude and ability. Case law has extended it thus:

 

What is suitable education?

The courts have defined a 'suitable education' as one which prepares a child for life in modern civilised society and enables him or her to achieve his or her potential. They have also ruled that education is suitable if it equips a child for life within the community to which he or she belongs, as long as this does not reduce the child's chance to adopt some other form of life in later years, should he or she wish to do so. This is important where the family have particular religious or cultural beliefs.

 

Italics mine. I don't see this as a bad yardstick. Educate your child in your own cultural and religious beliefs if you (generic 'you') wish, but don't do it so narrowly that their potential is stunted.

 

Laura

Edited December 3, 2011 by Laura Corin

[Stacy in NJ]

Personally I'm shocked that people are so indifferet to this sort of neglect that they would do nothing about it. Unbelievable!

 

Bill

 

"enlightened", thoughtful, liberal (in the traditional sense - not the political sense) believe that it's appropriate to try to force their value system on others. Weird.

 

It's incredibly obvious in this country (and world) that not everyone places the same value on an academic education. While we can encourage and try to persuade others to our point of view - that a rigorous education is a beautiful and valuable thing - much like an evangelical might try to persuade others about the rightness of their religious beliefs - it is incredibly inappropriate to FORCE others to acquiesce to our value system.

 

If we're concerned about individuals not reaching their full potential because of neglect then we should be reporting families to child protective services when women give birth out of wedlock. Single parent status is a more significant signaler of future social failure than a poor education. In fact, moral signalers (sex before marriage, unwed pregnancies) tell us much about future social failure than educational levels.

[Night Elf]

When we start contemplating "reporting" people for "educational neglect," we start down that slippery slope. One man's educational neglect is another's philosophy of education. A die-hard WTMer might think that a die-hard CMer was neglecting her children. I don't think we should go there.

 

:iagree: Yeah, it sounds like something out of some awful futuristic storyline where all people must be educated in the same exact manner or risk harsh penalties.

 

FWIW, I am not educating my children using the Classical educational method. We are strictly a traditional education oriented family, after years of trying to find our niche. My kids go through most of the motions just to finish. I've no doubt they aren't retaining a great deal but neither did I in school. It is what it is. Obviously there are people on this board who likely feel I'm neglecting my children. I really don't give a flying fig.

 

My ex-husband wanted to prevent me from getting custody of my oldest dd after she had been living with him. He told his lawyer to tell the judge that I homeschool, an extremely neglectful parental decision and therefore would consider me unfit. Thank goodness his lawyer had more sense than to pursue that idiotic notion.

[SKL]

But you ARE teaching them phonics and handwriting. You're not just saying "Oh, I'm sure they'll pick it up when they're a teenager and ready." There are lightyears of difference.

 

Oh well, I don't teach my kid phonics and handwriting. The way her individual mind works, that would be counterproductive. She picks up through reading and other experiences.

 

Phonics, in fact, is not taught at all by many popular schools of thought. My professional friends from India were intrigued to hear of it.

 

Handwriting is not an intellectual pursuit at all for anyone older than 5.

 

I can't imagine someone thinking that potential removal into the "system" and/or inappropriate PS placements could be justified in order to ensure a child is "taught" phonics and handwriting.

[Stacy in NJ]

Our Constitution restrains the ability of federal or state law to inject itself into concerns outside its stated jurisdiction. Defining what a "suitable education" is is outside its jurisdiction. Public schools or institutions that issue state diplomas must adhere to certain educational standards (hardee har har) determined by the state, but these institutions are not mandatory.

 

And while you may be comfortable with this definition, some Americans would find the "as long as this does not reduce the child's chance to adopt some other form of life in later years, should he or she wish to do so" incredibly vague and intrusive. In fact, it could be used as an excuse to eliminate some folk's right to home school altogether.

 

The original law on home education in England (Scotland has different wording) demands that the education be suitable to their age, aptitude and ability. Case law has extended it thus:

 

What is suitable education?

The courts have defined a 'suitable education' as one which prepares a child for life in modern civilised society and enables him or her to achieve his or her potential. They have also ruled that education is suitable if it equips a child for life within the community to which he or she belongs, as long as this does not reduce the child's chance to adopt some other form of life in later years, should he or she wish to do so. This is important where the family have particular religious or cultural beliefs.

 

Italics mine. I don't see this as a bad yardstick. Educate your child in your own cultural and religious beliefs if you (generic 'you') wish, but don't do it so narrowly that their potential is stunted.

 

Laura

Edited December 3, 2011 by Stacy in NJ

[Jane Elliot]

:iagree:

 

I have seen well-educated children who are physically and emotionally abused. If these kids are healthy and loved then putting them into the foster system would be a terrible thing.

 

:iagree:Good point. Well said!

[wapiti]

While there may be a slippery slope between a rigorious education and minimum state standards, the fact is that there ARE minimum state standards (or at least I assume so - I didn't catch what state this is, nor would I have any idea which states require no reporting whatsoever). It sounds like the issue is more about a wholesale failure to educate rather than educate poorly.

 

I will pray that they can be persuaded. It's mind-boggling; I wonder what in the world the father thinks the future is supposed to look like for these kids once they hit 18, will they "graduate", get a job, support a family of their own, etc.

[TracyR]

That is a tough situation. :grouphug:

 

I would never report someone for educational neglect. Perhaps someone looks at my family and thinks I am not doing enough. Maybe someone sees me out with my kids at the grocery store during school hours and thinks I'm not doing enough.

 

Yep. This situation sends a shiver down my spine. Yep. You have every right to feel the way you feel. Nope. This is probably not what you nor I would want for our children. However, these are their children. If the children are happy, safe, secure, and loved, they have so much more than many other kids out there.

 

I love homeschooling because I have control over what my kids learn. I, as the parent, get to guide them. I get to make the final decisions. Many do not agree with my choices. I certainly do not agree with the choices of many other parents. But we all have choices, and those choices need to be respected. (Even though they may seem incredibly ridiculous, irresponsible, and just plain dumb.)

 

:grouphug: I totally understand. I know someone who is very similar to your friend.

:iagree:I'm definitely not one to judge because I never know who is judging me.

They are not your children. Hopefully some day they will be motiviated enough to get the information they need should they want to go to college. Some people homeschool and their goal isn't to send their children to college. For whatever reason that I'm sure you or I couldn't understand. Not everyone has the same goals for their children.

You may feel I don't do enough with my children at home, or I may feel the same way visa versa about yours. So its not any of our places to judge what we feel is enough.

Have they always taught this way? You said this year. I know there have been great years for us where we accomplish much and I can do more. And not so good years due to either my health problems or my youngest's health problems. Those years we're lucky to get math and reading done.

 

If they have access to the library then they are reading books. I know to me a house without books isn't quite a house. But its hard for you to know what it is they do if they live far away from you.

 

It maynot be what you would do with your family, but it must be what's right for them. Is it sad should something happen to her and they had to put their children into school? You bet. But they would have to deal with something like that should it ever happen.

 

You continue to do what you do. But I do agree. You shouldn't really go there.

[SKL]

Aren't Amish people allowed to stop educating their kids after grade 8? Is that educational neglect, or simply a legal choice? The children learn to read and think by adulthood. That is the gateway to all the other knowledge that is out there. So assuming they are not chained or lobotomized as adults, they are not being prevented from going down a different path as adults.

 

I don't think the law requires (or should require) that all children be prepared for a rigorous college education.

 

I wonder if some of the folks here have actually read the Bible on a daily basis. In case you haven't, it's an extremely rich piece of literature. I can hardly wait to subject my kids to that "abuse and neglect," but right now, they are not ready for it "in my opinion." (And some families probably believe my keeping them from it is educational neglect. Maybe it is!)

[Jean in Newcastle]

 

Conceivably either way someone could make it harder for homeschoolers in general in the state in question because of this family's educational neglect.

 

 

 

 

This is why I actually am for some educational oversight of homeschoolers by the state. I think that requiring yearly achievement tests isn't too onerous or silly. And most states that require this also require yearly "progress" which would accommodate those with LDs and other disabilities.

[kalanamak]

Maybe.. it's nonsense like that which gives homeschooling a bad name. It's unfair to their children as well.

 

:iagree: They may be "happy and well adjusted" now, but one wonders how they will feel when they get out and find how lost they are. Are the older kids curious, or are they passively toeing the line? Have they been so sheltered they really don't know what they don't know? (E.g. never seen TV.)

 

How does the family earn a living? How do they expect the kids to? (Or is is "The Lord Will Provide" thinking?)

 

What are the rules of the state? To whom would you report? (I had no idea one could report such a thing.)

 

I wonder if there is psychological problems. If they are "overwhelmed" and want to spend their time reading a book of comfort that stresses a code of social rules and an idyllic next-life, is this escapism? Is there a dark something going on? Paranoia? Depression? Delusion?

 

Can YOUR kids talk excitedly and naturally about the wonderful things they are studying?

 

I feel terribly sorry for the kids, and fear this kind of nonsense will bring trouble for all.

 

:grouphug:

[SKL]

Have they always taught this way? You said this year.

 

This is an interesting point. Maybe right now they are focusing on math and Bible because the kids are behind in math, and bringing them up to level in math is more important than introducing other subjects right now.

 

Another thing I keep thinking is, maybe the parents are understating what their kids are doing because that's just the way they talk about this. For example, some people will say their 7yo isn't really reading because she can only decipher vocabulary-controlled books. (While others will say their 3yo is reading because she can recognize a handful of random words.) If the goal is to read the Bible, it may not be considered met until the child can pick up a Bible, read a section, and explain what she read. Many kids can't do that before age 10 or so.

[6packofun]

You don't need to share what state they are in, but for THEIR state are they meeting the legal requirements? Are they aware of them or is it sorta like God trumps all laws/rules so they ignore them?

[ereks mom]

The failure of the educational system in impoverished areas is tragic, but it is no excuse for people (expecially those with means) to purposefully not educate their children. Two wrongs do not make a right, and what these people are doing is unconscionable.

 

The children can't read. You bet the children should be angry. Angry at their parents who willfully keep them ignorant, and angry at those who watched and remained silent while this takes place.

 

...

 

It is intentional and premeditated neglect. How does one sit and do nothing?

 

:iagree:

[Stacy in NJ]

"educational neglect". I find it so richly ironic that they would replace one type of authoritarian ideology (Vision Forum mumbo-jumbo) with their own "legitimate" version of authoritarianism. I happen to share their opinion of the value of a rigorous education, but that is my choice not an imperative.

 

Aren't Amish people allowed to stop educating their kids after grade 8? Is that educational neglect, or simply a legal choice? The children learn to read and think by adulthood. That is the gateway to all the other knowledge that is out there. So assuming they are not chained or lobotomized as adults, they are not being prevented from going down a different path as adults.

 

I don't think the law requires (or should require) that all children be prepared for a rigorous college education.

 

I wonder if some of the folks here have actually read the Bible on a daily basis. In case you haven't, it's an extremely rich piece of literature. I can hardly wait to subject my kids to that "abuse and neglect," but right now, they are not ready for it "in my opinion." (And some families probably believe my keeping them from it is educational neglect. Maybe it is!)

[TracyR]

"enlightened", thoughtful, liberal (in the traditional sense - not the political sense) believe that it's appropriate to try to force their value system on others. Weird.

 

It's incredibly obvious in this country (and world) that not everyone places the same value on an academic education. While we can encourage and try to persuade others to our point of view - that a rigorous education is a beautiful and valuable thing - much like an evangelical might try to persuade others about the rightness of their religious beliefs - it is incredibly inappropriate to FORCE others to acquiesce to our value system.

 

If we're concerned about individuals not reaching their full potential because of neglect then we should be reporting families to child protective services when women give birth out of wedlock. Single parent status is a more significant signaler of future social failure than a poor education. In fact, moral signalers (sex before marriage, unwed pregnancies) tell us much about future social failure than educational levels.

 

:iagree: I totally agree. You cannot force your values, your thoughts, or your judgement on others. As long as she is following the law then she is safe to teach her children as she pleases.

 

If she were living in PA this would not fly at all if your child is over the age of 8. But I know some states are free and you can educate your child as you wish.

 

Just as most of us don't understand unschooling, or would want to attempt at just unschooling. Then we shouldn't pass judgment on what they are doing. They maynot identify themselves with a particular way of teaching. I'm a bit on the electic side but really don't say I teach a particular way. I incorporate what works for us at that moment in time. " Whatever gets the info in" I always say. If that means I have to use one curriculum , several, or just unschool a topic a bit.

Who's to say these kids won't learn more than just listening to the Bible? Children always have questions. So they would have to answer them.

 

Remember the saying " Different strokes for different folks?" I know that there are many here if they could legally turn me in for homeschooling, they would. LOL Because many in our area send their kids to school. They don't understand what they do. But as long as I am doing my part legally for my state and my children are learning. They will learn what they need to learn when they want to. I know there is TONS I never learned when I went to brick and mortar school. Most of what I know is from reading information in my spare time. As well as my husband. He never did well in school as a child. Not even in high school. But if you met him now you would think he was a human encyclopedia. He can talk to you all day about history, fire trucks, police, military , the economy, and so forth. But most of what he has learned has been when he has been OUT of school, not in. So you just don't learn all you need to know as a child. You continuously learn throughout your entire life. We all do, until the day we die.

 

I think if we all turned each other in for what we feel is enough, and what isn't. I think in the end homeschooling wouldn't exist. Because there maybe some who feel I don't do enough, and there maybe some I feel that don't do enough for their children. We would have to all turn each other in at some point. Or how about the ones who "push" their children with so much work? Sometimes I see posts of people working on work that isn't quite age appropriate for most kids too. Or how about for instance my 5yr old may have health problems BUT she has a good mind. She is far ahead of her peers and does really, really well with her school work. She is working in 1st /2nd grade work at the age of 5. I know there are some 5yr olds who are even more ahead than that. Would someone turn me in for 'pushing' my 5yr old to work ahead of what most would think is to much for a typical 5yr old? I know most are just learning their colors, and letters, and how to count. My daughter can work on three digit addition and subtraction. Most people would think I'm the world's worst mom for pushing her. But I'm not. Its where her mind is at.

So would you turn someone in for that because you believe that's to much?

See what I'm saying? We can't judge because we don't live with that family, we don't know the goings on of their family unit. Even if you visit, visiting never gives you a whole picture of what goes on in a family. You just can't judge. In the end it will be her own children that will judge. Not us. I think that would be the worst punishment in the end to have your own children tell you that you didn't do enough to educate them. At least to me. So she'll have to live with it. Not us.

Edited December 3, 2011 by TracyR

[OLG]

Like OP, I would never 'report' this but I would start sharing lots of resources and maybe attempting to open the parent's eyes a bit about how they can achieve their macro goals with the kids while still providing a sound education and footing for life as an adult.Sometimes folks are simply unaware of what is available if they are trying to avoid the 'wordly' materials but sometimes people are simply ignorant because they think they 'know it all'. Can't help the later. This 'type' of controlled information in education isn't restricted to Vision Forum folks either...I see it in some uber-Catholic families.And, my own personal opinion is that they find it easier to limit what is taught rather than seek out the wealth of material that is now available for homeschooling to fit almost every objective.

[mommaduck]

Aren't Amish people allowed to stop educating their kids after grade 8? Is that educational neglect, or simply a legal choice? The children learn to read and think by adulthood. That is the gateway to all the other knowledge that is out there. So assuming they are not chained or lobotomized as adults, they are not being prevented from going down a different path as adults.

 

I don't think the law requires (or should require) that all children be prepared for a rigorous college education.

 

I wonder if some of the folks here have actually read the Bible on a daily basis. In case you haven't, it's an extremely rich piece of literature. I can hardly wait to subject my kids to that "abuse and neglect," but right now, they are not ready for it "in my opinion." (And some families probably believe my keeping them from it is educational neglect. Maybe it is!)

Depends upon where they live and what the age limits are. However, I have known some Anabaptists that will just have their kids repeat grade eight till they age-out. My BIL said this is what he wanted to do with his kids. He not only does not value education, but he is anti-academic. VERY. Last I heard though, they did eventually place the kids into one of the anabaptist dayschools (Beachy, I think). One reason is that there was concern voiced by both his dad and his in-laws. He then turned around and cut those people out of his and his family's life. We saw this progression when we did have a slight relationship with them. First, his wife wasn't allowed to talk about anything other than sewing, cooking, homeschool, and childbirth/midwifery with me (no religion, no politics, no anything else). Then one day, she was no longer allowed to talk with me about homeschooling (their curricula was several years behind ours...the kids were not learning what most their age knew and it wasn't due to any disabilities...in fact, the oldest did not even know her grandfather was in the military, let alone what the military/Air Force/Navy/Marines/army even was!...she was playing a song from her piano book...it was the Marine Anthem...I was "bad" and filled her in). I got chewed out for having the radio on in my van for a whole minute and a half while their kid was in my van, but they went and preached to my kid about their view of salvation. Then one day, the wife wasn't allowed to speak with me about childbirth/midwifery. Suddenly, we were down to cooking, sewing, and nothing. Honestly, BIL is sociopathic, but because the kids were fed, sheltered, and "loved" there was nothing to call them on (he relished in telling us how he had called CPS just to ask about this, because of concern with his in-laws threatening to call on them).

[wapiti]

I think there's a world of difference between an educational philosophy and a philosophy not to educate, to fail to even attempt.

 

The more I think about it, I wonder whether there is some sort of psychological issue on the part of the father, as a PP mentioned.

[SKL]

I think there's a world of difference between an educational philosophy and a philosophy not to educate, to fail to even attempt.

 

But OP said they study Bible and math every day. How can that be a philosophy to not educate?

[mommaduck]

But OP said they study Bible and math every day. How can that be a philosophy to not educate?

Seriously?! You don't see it?

[ereks mom]

the parents told you that they are only studying Bible and a little math, and that's all they'll be doing next year, too?

 

I've made my decision, so I'm not really looking for advice. I'm just wondering how other homeschoolers see such an extreme case of failure to teach, and whether you'd feel a responsibility to report this to any kind of authorities in some way.

 

...

 

What would you do? There are more than half a dozen children aged 2 to16. They live on the other side of the country from me and we don't meet often.

 

In a word, YES. I would absolutely report people who so blatantly neglected their children. These children are being deprived. And that's wrong. I believe it is criminal.

 

Why? Because of this:

 

They're all going to gather around and listen to the Dad read the Bible, and then do as many or few pages in their math books as they each want to. That's it.

 

Only the teens can read. Nobody is anywhere near grade level in math.

 

It stressed them out to even hammer out an educational philosophy, so after years of feeling guilty for not teaching the kids anything they decided to stop feeling guilty.

 

Actively prevent children from learning? Hmm. I do get the impression that the teens are prevented from learning enough to aim for college.

Have books in the home? No.

...

Internet? No.

...

Have friends? Yes, that the whole family visits. Nobody local.

Allowed to go to school if they wanted? 100% No.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I think there's a world of difference between an educational philosophy and a philosophy not to educate, to fail to even attempt.

 

The more I think about it, I wonder whether there is some sort of psychological issue on the part of the father, as a PP mentioned.

 

I think it is clear that most of us would agree that there is some dysfunction in this family - esp. with regards to the father. But not all dysfunction is legally abuse or neglect (or a great percentage of families would be in trouble). I'm getting a bit confused between what I'm reading in this thread and in the s/o thread, but the issue of reporting or not reporting really boils down to whether they are following their state laws or not. For some state laws, they would probably be fine. For others, not. The most stringent states wouldn't need anyone to report them because they would know if the family is in compliance.

[wapiti]

But OP said they study Bible and math every day. How can that be a philosophy to not educate?

 

They don't teach them to read until 12-13, so, someone else is doing the reading. I think that's the main issue here, the failure to teach reading and writing. The "study" of the Bible via discussion alone is not particularly relevant (hey, maybe they do oral narrations??).

 

I don't think we have enough facts about math, but if they're not reading, to me that certainly calls into question what constitutes math in that household, as not being able to read might preclude the use of grade-level work, and I wonder about writing - are they writing numbers, etc.

[Stacy in NJ]

Seriously?! You don't see it?

 

study only Latin, math, and read, right? Are they neglecting their children? Are unschoolers who follow no prescribed curriculum neglecting their children?

[wapiti]

I think it is clear that most of us would agree that there is some dysfunction in this family - esp. with regards to the father. But not all dysfunction is legally abuse or neglect (or a great percentage of families would be in trouble). I'm getting a bit confused between what I'm reading in this thread and in the s/o thread, but the issue of reporting or not reporting really boils down to whether they are following their state laws or not. For some state laws, they would probably be fine. For others, not. The most stringent states wouldn't need anyone to report them because they would know if the family is in compliance.

 

I agree, this boils down to state law.

[coralloyd]

Heck no I would NOT report them. It's their kids not mine.

 

I think that parents who don't discipline their kids are doing them a bigger disservice than this family. Should I "report" them for it? Um no. It is not even possible to report them for it. Because somehow "education" is more important than someone's character, in our society.

[Joanne]

I would *absolutely* consider reporting them. *After* I told them that was my intention and "next step" unless they made actual changes in the daily lives of the children that demonstrated an appropriate care for the developmental abilities, educational abilities, and needs presented by living in a western country.

 

Neglect is NEGLECT.

Abuse is ABUSE.

 

"Happy and fed" does not negate neglect or abuse. It is outrageous and unacceptable that parents should be allowed/encouraged to make the choice to neglect their child, and have that choice protected.

 

Also, making the decision to report should not mean trying the case beforehand. It's the agency's job to investigate after a report of concern. It's not the job of the reporting and concerned individual.

 

These children would likely be removed from the home and put in foster care. This large of a group would almost certainly not be placed together. So, they would not only loose their parents, but their siblings as well.

 

Mandy

 

This is a huge leap, and certainly not "true". It would be investigated (maybe) and, more likely, the family would be require to educate the children in an acceptable, possibly mainstream, manner.

 

Bible readings and self-directed math is not an eduation. It is not adequate or appropriate, or loving. I would go to the end of the earth to HELP a family who is not able to educate (or advocate for their special needs child in a school setting). An intentional design to neglect kids? Nope, can't support it.

 

And I lean towards libertarian, and generally have a "hands off" policy towards homeschooling.

[Impish]

I haven't read the whole thread.

 

I'm honestly surprised at how many ppl don't seem to think that this blatant educational neglect isn't worthy of reporting.

 

Just b/c someone claims the title of homeschooler doesn't mean that they are.

 

This family is neglecting their kids. Period.

 

Trotting out, 'well, the schools don't...' has absolutely nothing to do with anything. Just b/c the schools don't always manage isn't an excuse to ignore this family deliberately choosing not to educate their children.

 

I sincerely hope someone, somewhere, stands up for these kids, and tries to put the kids first, rather than protecting the parents. The parents are the ones choosing this. They're adults, and imo, don't need protecting.

 

These kids absolutely do. They deserve a full and unfettered future, not to be hobbled by the deliberate state of ignorance their parents are forcing on them.

[elegantlion]

I think it is clear that most of us would agree that there is some dysfunction in this family - esp. with regards to the father. But not all dysfunction is legally abuse or neglect (or a great percentage of families would be in trouble). I'm getting a bit confused between what I'm reading in this thread and in the s/o thread, but the issue of reporting or not reporting really boils down to whether they are following their state laws or not. For some state laws, they would probably be fine. For others, not. The most stringent states wouldn't need anyone to report them because they would know if the family is in compliance.

 

This is the slippery slope for me. I, personally, am against standardized testing for homeschoolers. My state doesn't require them, so we've never messed with them. However, I can see families like this that hit the spotlight for whatever reason, and suddenly they're trying to legislate testing for homeschoolers. It's not just because Johnny can't read, it's because Johnny can't fill out a job application or handle a checkbook.

 

So, yes, I can say it's people like this that give homeschooling a bad name. My first concern would be if they are educating up to their state requirement. I guess my outlook is somewhat colored because of the patriarchal stance of the father. Would I feel led to report an unschooler? A devoted family that seemed less dysfunctional yet only used the Bible and a math book? Where do you draw the line? This family seems to be treading very close, imo.

 

From what Tibbie has posted it seems the lack of education is only one of the many things the father seems to be attempting to control. That bothers me.

[DianeW88]

I knew a family where I learned the 8-9 year olds could not read at all; they couldn't even write their own names. I talked to someone in the church who *could* influence the family. The grandparents chose to pay a tutor to come to the house to help the mom.

 

There are ways to influence families and help children without reporting them to government officials. There are loads of options between "nothing" and "child protective services." eta: This is assuming an otherwise functional family.

 

:iagree: Reporting them would be the absolute last choice on my list.

 

I'm no fan of the Vision Forum philosophy, but Doug's children are fairly rigorously educated, from what I understand. Is there anyway you could influence this family along those lines? Show them examples from their catalog, CDs, books, etc.? If that is how they believe and if Doug Phillips is someone they hold up as an example, would they not be amenable to educating their children in the same way? Maybe some gentle persuasion on your part to look at a certain curriculum that Vision Forum uses, or holding co-op at their house with your kids (that you teach) might be acceptable to the parents.

[myfunnybunch]

Personally I'm shocked that people are so indifferet to this sort of neglect that they would do nothing about it. Unbelievable!

 

I see variations of this argument in this thread. The orginal question was "Would you report?" not "What would you do?" or "Would you stand by idly and do nothing?"

 

Not reporting it does not equal doing nothing.

 

I expect if the OP had asked, "How would you handle this situation?" the responses would be quite different, and few people would advocate truly doing and saying nothing. I know in my original response, I typed up a couple approaches I'd likely take in real life, but deleted that section because it didn't really address the question.

 

I disagree with the individual family's decision. But I don't find it shocking that people on a homeschooling board would not involve the state. I don't even find it particularly shocking that there are families who believe that it is up to the individual family to choose how, or even not, to educate their children.

 

Reporting a family who is teaching their children Bible and math, with children who are otherwise safe, loved and cared for, with outside activities and contacts would do so much more harm than good. The state is too short on dollars and too slow to think out of the box for this family to get gentle support that will help them to teach their children and so on. If the report is found to be valid, the state takes custody and forces the children into public school. Period. The parents no longer have legal rights over their children, none. Once the state has legal custody of the children, the state can require whatever the judge and social workers deem fit in order for the family to regain custody.

 

Remember, I have personally seen a family go through this. I believe that child protective services has an important role, and I am not anti-state involvement. But for the family I know, it wasn't as simple as putting the kids in school and regaining custody. The state "owned" those children, and had several requirements beyond the educational. If the family had chosen to legally fight those additional requirements, they would not have filled them in the time period the state required and the state would have taken physical custody, not to mention the financial burden a legal battle would have placed on the family. It is easy to sit back and say, "They just need to put their kids in school, and everything will be fine," when you've never been under threat of losing your children. The reality is that it's not that simple. It is beyond frightening to think that if you misstep, you will lose your children. The whole process is intrusive, expensive and horrible.

 

Weighing "educational neglect" (by my personal judgement) against placing a loving family in that situation is not morally acceptable in my book.

 

Cat