Would you report a homeschooling family for educational neglect if...

[WTMCassandra]

Okay, I have read through this WHOLE thread *whew.*

 

I would like to ask a question I have not seen asked or answered:

 

What do they do with the rest of their day?

 

I think this would explain a lot.

 

I agree that VF does NOT recommend "non-schooling" or "non-church-commitment." I don't think we can lay this all at VF's door.

 

I am concerned that they do not teach reading before age 12. This does not square with an intense religious commitment (which would want the children to read the Bible for themselves).

 

It does sound like educational abdication to me, that they have been overwhelmed so they decided to stop feeling guilty. This is wrong and has nothing to do with religious commitment, IMO.

 

I agree that reporting them to a "broke" system will likely make things worse. I also agree that they should be following the laws of their state.

Edited December 3, 2011 by WTMCassandra

[Barry Goldwater]

Personally I'm shocked that people are so indifferet to this sort of neglect that they would do nothing about it. Unbelievable!

 

Bill

 

It is not neglect. It is an educational philosophy. I would consider someone reporting them to be encroaching on their religious freedoms, and therefore would consider him to be engaging in religious persecution.

 

Reporting them would never ever enter my mind. I might or might not encourage them to broaden their scope of education, for their own benefit, but that's about it.

[Joanne]

I haven't read the whole thread.

 

I'm honestly surprised at how many ppl don't seem to think that this blatant educational neglect isn't worthy of reporting.

 

Just b/c someone claims the title of homeschooler doesn't mean that they are.

 

This family is neglecting their kids. Period.

 

Trotting out, 'well, the schools don't...' has absolutely nothing to do with anything. Just b/c the schools don't always manage isn't an excuse to ignore this family deliberately choosing not to educate their children.

 

I sincerely hope someone, somewhere, stands up for these kids, and tries to put the kids first, rather than protecting the parents. The parents are the ones choosing this. They're adults, and imo, don't need protecting.

 

These kids absolutely do. They deserve a full and unfettered future, not to be hobbled by the deliberate state of ignorance their parents are forcing on them.

 

:iagree: Totally.

[Mergath]

Daily Bible study (even if there's not organised curriculum going on) and math, and a later than average introduction to reading in an otherwise happy, well adjusted family, is not the educational neglect that warrants reporting. If you think it is, it is only because your educational goals do not match theirs and because your consider your educational goals superior to theirs.

 

Darn right, I consider my educational goals superior. My dd is going to receive a well-rounded education. She's going to have the skills necessary to go on to do whatever she wants as an adult. Is that "superior" to not teaching her to read or write until she's a teenager? To ignoring science completely? Absolutely.

[myfunnybunch]

It's not just because Johnny can't read, it's because Johnny can't fill out a job application or handle a checkbook.

 

But Johnny doesn't need to fill out a job application or handle a checkbook at age 8 or 10 or 12. If Johnny learns to read and write at 12, and Johnny has been doing math daily (if we're still discussing the OP family), then Johnny, or Jane, will be able to fill out a job application as an adult, total a grocery bill, write a letter, measure a fence, and balance a checkbook.

 

The children aren't being locked in a box.

 

Cat

[Mergath]

Second of all, the founders of this country taught good, solid educations to their children using nothing more than a Bible and a math book. I don't think anyone would argue that they weren't educated.

 

Ah... no. I'm not sure what idealized history book you've been reading, but that's simply not true.

[Spy Car]

Daily Bible study (even if there's not organised curriculum going on) and math, and a later than average introduction to reading in an otherwise happy, well adjusted family, is not the educational neglect that warrants reporting. If you think it is, it is only because your educational goals do not match theirs and because your consider your educational goals superior to theirs.

 

Yes, I think learning to read before the age of 13 is a superior educational goal to intentionally keeping children ignorant. Not exactly a controversial position methinks.

 

What about a classically educated, above average in math child homeschooled in a white supremacist home? Certainly not educational neglect by your standards, but I'd be much more concerned about that child, than a child who learnes to read late and studies the Bible.

 

As I've said repeatedly, two wrongs don't make a right. The existence of white supremacist home-schoolers, nor failing public schools, does not in one iota change the educational neglect taking place in this case.

 

Bill

[mommaduck]

study only Latin, math, and read, right? Are they neglecting their children? Are unschoolers who follow no prescribed curriculum neglecting their children?

They aren't studying Latin or reading from what I read. They are listening to the Bible being read and sort of doing math.

[NanceXToo]

I, too, am curious how they spend the rest of their day (in general). There are a lot of ways to learn outside of textbooks and worksheets, many of them just as valid and sometimes even more so. I can even understand delaying formal reading instruction if they favor the "Better Late Than Early" philosophy (like in the Moores' book) even if age 12 does seem a bit TOO late to a lot of us. I don't know. No, I would not be inclined to "report" them, especially if I thought they were learning in other ways and encouraging hobbies, interests, and loving and providing for them etc.

[Stacy in NJ]

Very gracefully expressed.

 

I think it is difficult to not try to look at other people's lives through our own value system. Does what the family is doing look like neglect to me and do I think it is horrible? Yes but those are my values.

 

I deal with many different families through my work and have for over 16 years. Some of them may appear to neglect their children's development while still providing them food, shelter, love, etc...Those families often have other things that are foremost in their minds at the time like providing that food and shelter or dealing with an illness in the family or their own emotions concerning their child's delays. It may improve the child's potential if the parent were to follow through with the activities I suggest but it isn't my place to judge what they are doing with their child no matter how hard it might be for me to not do that. My job is simply to provide them with whatever knowledge I can and encourage them to follow through by developing a relationship with the family.

 

It there were abuse or neglect of the child's basic needs then reporting becomes the only choice.

 

I think the OP is in a similar position. If the children's basic needs are met and they are loved, it is not really her place to instill her value system in this family no matter how superior or more "right" we believe her values are. Add into the mix the knowledge that CPS often does a horrible job and reporting seems the greater of two "evils."

[Stacy in NJ]

everything would be okey-dokey then?

 

They aren't studying Latin or reading from what I read. They are listening to the Bible being read and sort of doing math.

[elegantlion]

They aren't studying Latin or reading from what I read. They are listening to the Bible being read and sort of doing math.

 

This is what the OP is suggesting. Listening to the bible does not make one able to read.

 

But Johnny doesn't need to fill out a job application or handle a checkbook at age 8 or 10 or 12. If Johnny learns to read and write at 12, and Johnny has been doing math daily (if we're still discussing the OP family), then Johnny, or Jane, will be able to fill out a job application as an adult, total a grocery bill, write a letter, measure a fence, and balance a checkbook.

 

The children aren't being locked in a box.

 

Cat

 

At 12 the average child SHOULD be able to read and fill out a job application, even if they don't have to. From what the OP has stated they have purchased Singapore math. Pushing it, the Primary mathematics series could be used up to 8th grade. She didn't post ages, but I assume as there are teens some should be attempting high school level maths. Yeah, I find purposely handicapping a teen who is capable of doing high school level work to be neglectful.

 

Is it a reportable offense? I'm still on the fence on that one.

[Joanne]

It there were abuse or neglect of the child's basic needs then reporting becomes the only choice.

 

."

 

I consider education a basic need in a western country.

[mommaduck]

Well, reading the bible is "reading". So, if they added in Latin everything would be okey-dokey then?

How is it "reading" if they aren't reading or being taught to read?

 

Am I correct in presuming by your comment that if the kids were only being taught to enjoy hobbies and had no instruction in any subject, that that would be okay with you?

[wapiti]

Well, reading the bible is "reading". So, if they added in Latin everything would be okey-dokey then?

 

I think the primary issue is that they are NOT teaching reading (and writing) until 12-13. The Bible is being read to them.

[mommaduck]

This is what the OP is suggesting. Listening to the bible does not make one able to read.

 

 

 

At 12 the average child SHOULD be able to read and fill out a job application, even if they don't have to. From what the OP has stated they have purchased Singapore math. Pushing it, the Primary mathematics series could be used up to 8th grade. She didn't post ages, but I assume as there are teens some should be attempting high school level maths. Yeah, I find purposely handicapping a teen who is capable of doing high school level work to be neglectful.

 

Is it a reportable offense? I'm still on the fence on that one.

:iagree:

 

Even following the Moore's theory (which I don't have a problem with...some kids do have reading "click" later, even with instruction...but twelve years old and NO instruction :glare: ), they would be falling down.

[wapiti]

This is what the OP is suggesting. Listening to the bible does not make one able to read.

 

 

 

At 12 the average child SHOULD be able to read and fill out a job application, even if they don't have to. From what the OP has stated they have purchased Singapore math. Pushing it, the Primary mathematics series could be used up to 8th grade. She didn't post ages, but I assume as there are teens some should be attempting high school level maths. Yeah, I find purposely handicapping a teen who is capable of doing high school level work to be neglectful.

 

Is it a reportable offense? I'm still on the fence on that one.

 

I missed the part where they purchased SM - interesting. I don't see how that helps the kids if they can't read, except that the high school kids who can read could use the upper elementary books.

 

For reporting, it would depend on how accurate these facts are about not teaching basic literacy.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I tried the angle of pointing out how much VF endorses rigorous education. They are simply not interested. I think they just don't want the daily work of educating the children. (I suspect a friend gave/loaned the Wisdom Booklets.)

 

Someone upthread mentioned that the Dad sounded a little paranoid, and I would go along with that. It keeps him from fully joining even the causes and organizations he does agree with, I think.

 

Jean in Newcastle understood why I try to influence them deliberately but subtly. The dad is patriarchal and authoritarian, and if I want to influence them at all I have to be careful.

 

Thanks to everyone for the input, especially from those who disagree with my choice not to report them. I wanted to hear your reasoning.

 

I'm printing Mrs. Mungo's posts to show DH and maybe we can think of some ways to intervene a bit without driving them underground.

 

TD

[Guest]

I think the primary issue is that they are NOT teaching reading (and writing) until 12-13. The Bible is being read to them.

 

Yeah, I would be less concerned if they were reading the Bible and doing some writing assignments to go along with it. Then, if they added in a little science and social studies they would be good to go. I understand teaching Biblical history using the Bible, but I think they should teach other history as well.

[mommaduck]

I tried the angle of pointing out how much VF endorses rigorous education. They are simply not interested. I think they just don't want the daily work of educating the children. (I suspect a friend gave/loaned the Wisdom Booklets.)

 

Someone upthread mentioned that the Dad sounded a little paranoid, and I would go along with that. It keeps him from fully joining even the causes and organizations he does agree with, I think.

 

Jean in Newcastle understood why I try to influence them deliberately but subtly. The dad is patriarchal and authoritarian, and if I want to influence them at all I have to be careful.

 

Thanks to everyone for the input, especially from those who disagree with my choice not to report them. I wanted to hear your reasoning.

 

I'm printing Mrs. Mungo's posts to show DH and maybe we can think of some ways to intervene a bit without driving them underground.

 

TD

The bolded would be my main concern.

[Alenee]

Yes, what do they DO all day? If they're the type of family the OP has made them out to be, they *are* being educated. I would be willing to bet the boys know how to measure and build (among other things) and the girls know how to cook and sew (among other things). These are skills you don't get by sitting down with books all day long and it is a valid educational philosophy whether it's what I would choose or not.

 

I'm relieved to know that the majority of posters in this thread would not report them. I find it disheartening, even repulsive, that some *would* choose to report. As my millionaire uncle just said to me two days ago,

 

"Our public schools are a mess. The unions have made education a buzz word that is synonymous with societal decay. Education is important, but it is not omni-important. It is more important to focus on making a difference with what you have, instead of what obtaining something additional might bring. Education is overrated. The unions and educated elite have made it seem like you cannot be successful if you do not have an education. Nothing could be further from the truth."

 

I could not get on board with sending these kids to public school just so someone could say they *did something*. You who say this may find this to be the moral high road but what morals are you standing on if that's ALL you did in this situation? The pedestal you're putting yourself on is weak, imo.

[Harriet Vane]

Personally I'm shocked that people are so indifferet to this sort of neglect that they would do nothing about it. Unbelievable!

 

Bill

 

Bill, I like you a great deal and enjoy/benefit from your posts many times. Can I just gently challenge you a bit on this? I don't take your comment personally--just trying to dialogue.

 

I mentioned in another post that I faced exactly this question with a family that I knew (and still do know). The parents were totally honest with me about the lack of education their children were receiving, and I was most certainly NOT indifferent to the neglect or the long term aspects of it. In fact, I agonized over the situation longer and harder than you can know.

 

I am not afraid to report families to DCFS and have done so in the past. I have also coached others who were afraid to report. I have lived for fourteen years in an impoverished, crime-ridden urban neighborhood by choice. I have dealt with drunks on my lawn and inappropriate behavior in the park behind my house. I also spent five years of my life in this neighborhood fighting an illegal business through the court system. I have personally broken up two teenage street fights. I also have extensive experience with foster care and in more recent years, respite care. I say all this just to tell you that I know just how ugly life can be, and how sick families can be, and my response to such situations has been to take a stand, often at cost to myself.

 

I chose not to report the family that was educationally neglecting their children. It was, as I said, an agonizing choice, and one that I second-guessed repeatedly. However, it came to this: The children were/are loved, fed, clothed, sheltered, definitely NOT beaten nor in any way s@xually abused (I know because I made sure, with the kids), and again--they were definitely loved. As such, the neglect did not meet the standards of criminal abuse or neglect. Because I am familiar with the social services system, I knew full well just how inadequate and even harmful the response could be--the system simply is not set up to deal with situations that are not life-threatening. (Honestly, the system does not deal with life-threatening situations all that well either.)

 

In the end, I was glad that I had chosen not to report. The reasons for the neglect became apparent when the mother was diagnosed with a terminal disease. Her inability to focus or cope was directly related to her disease. I was glad, in the end, that the kids had that time with her. When they were eventually placed in public school, they caught up unbelievably quickly. It's been years now, and they are thriving in school.

 

I wanted to give another example as well. I knew of another family that chose to withdraw their children from a struggling, dangerous inner-city school. The school was the epitome of all that is bad about our inner cities, and when I say that it was dangerous I am not exaggerating. It's virtually impossible for real learning to happen in such a truly stressful environment. The parents in this family did not have a high school diploma, and did not have the faintest idea of how to go about educating anyone. They just knew that they really would lose their children in that awful school, and they truly did not have other options due to money, transportation, and other issues. I was quite negative about their schooling for a couple years. However, their saving grace ended up being twofold: They put in the time one way or the other day after day, and they put all their energy into preserving their close emotional ties as a family. With that type of love and emotional support, they have been able to work through their inadequacies educationally. All three children are adults now. One has attended college, and all three are gainfully employed. This is in stark contrast to ALL their neighborhood peers.

 

It's not indifference, Bill. In my case at least, it was a recognition of the many difficult factors at play. My decisions not to report were based on risk analysis and trying to determine the best of a set of bad options.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

About the literacy, I checked with my own kids who spent lots of time with the children. They verify what I observed and what the Dad told me:

 

The teens can read, but none under the age of 13 are proficient readers. The older teens can read and write. None of the children have finished elementary arithmetic.

 

The 10yo seems to be gifted at math and loves it, but can't proceed in her book because she can't read.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Bill, I like you a great deal and enjoy/benefit from your posts many times. Can I just gently challenge you a bit on this? I don't take your comment personally--just trying to dialogue...

 

....It's not indifference, Bill. In my case at least, it was a recognition of the many difficult factors at play. My decisions not to report were based on risk analysis and trying to determine the best of a set of bad options.

 

Thank you Strider. I've also reported families to CPS for physical neglect and abuse. This just doesn't feel like the same thing to me, at all.

[mommaduck]

About the literacy, I checked with my own kids who spent lots of time with the children. They verify what I observed and what the Dad told me:

 

The teens can read, but none under the age of 13 are proficient readers. The older teens can read and write. None of the children have finished elementary arithmetic.

 

The 10yo seems to be gifted at math and loves it, but can't proceed in her book because she can't read.

Seriously, the parents can't take the time or make the effort to AT THE VERY LEAST, teach their children to read so that they may continue to learn through life?

 

Is there anything preventing them from making this minimal effort? Or is this truly a case of "we can't be bothered"?

[wapiti]

About the literacy, I checked with my own kids who spent lots of time with the children. They verify what I observed and what the Dad told me:

 

The teens can read, but none under the age of 13 are proficient readers. The older teens can read and write. None of the children have finished elementary arithmetic.

 

The 10yo seems to be gifted at math and loves it, but can't proceed in her book because she can't read.

 

That's heartbreaking!

 

Any chance the older kids could teach the younger ones to read? At least the middle ones like the 10 y.o.? (I will pray that there are no LDs.) Just a thought. Any chance your kids, or you, could teach them to read? I'm not sure how that would work, but if you're spending some time socially, and one of your kids happened to have a book....? eta, even from the Bible, if their books are that limited?

 

If it actually is more about not wanting to be bothered than some sort of delusion situation, any chance they'd accept some help in homeschooling, from a trusted friend or extended family member?

Edited December 3, 2011 by wapiti

[ElizabethB]

Do they have a computer? Could they be persuaded to let some of the children watch my phonics lessons? They are designed for older children and use the KJV. I also could send a beta copy of my 6 DVD set of the lessons if they have a TV and DVD player that will play movies.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Seriously, the parents can't take the time or make the effort to AT THE VERY LEAST, teach their children to read so that they may continue to learn through life?

 

Is there anything preventing them from making this minimal effort? Or is this truly a case of "we can't be bothered"?

 

Sadly, I lean toward 'can't be bothered.' I've offered everything from curriculum catalogs to my own books. I floated the idea of myself teaching a class or two over the internet and they had no interest in that. I didn't offer to cover the 3Rs or anything comprehensive, just to share in some neat things I was doing with my own children at the time. I hoped it would get me in the door as an online teaching resource for the children, but the parents didn't want anything to do with that idea.

 

I truly don't understand these decisions on their part.

[Joanne]

Yes, what do they DO all day? If they're the type of family the OP has made them out to be, they *are* being educated. I would be willing to bet the boys know how to measure and build (among other things) and the girls know how to cook and sew (among other things). These are skills you don't get by sitting down with books all day long and it is a valid educational philosophy whether it's what I would choose or not.

 

I'm relieved to know that the majority of posters in this thread would not report them. I find it disheartening, even repulsive, that some *would* choose to report. As my millionaire uncle just said to me two days ago,

 

"Our public schools are a mess. The unions have made education a buzz word that is synonymous with societal decay. Education is important, but it is not omni-important. It is more important to focus on making a difference with what you have, instead of what obtaining something additional might bring. Education is overrated. The unions and educated elite have made it seem like you cannot be successful if you do not have an education. Nothing could be further from the truth."

 

I could not get on board with sending these kids to public school just so someone could say they *did something*. You who say this may find this to be the moral high road but what morals are you standing on if that's ALL you did in this situation? The pedestal you're putting yourself on is weak, imo.

 

The state of the whole of public schools, or even individual ones are a red herring to the issue of neglect in this family.

 

In fact, it *detracts* from your arguement of the policy of non interference of parenting choice and authority. The quote is simply a vehicle for unrelated political commentary.

[mommaduck]

Sadly, I lean toward 'can't be bothered.' I've offered everything from curriculum catalogs to my own books. I floated the idea of myself teaching a class or two over the internet and they had no interest in that. I didn't offer to cover the 3Rs or anything comprehensive, just to share in some neat things I was doing with my own children at the time. I hoped it would get me in the door as an online teaching resource for the children, but the parents didn't want anything to do with that idea.

 

I truly don't understand these decisions on their part.

Question: how educated are the parents?

 

The reason for the question: I know that in my BIL/SIL's case, the issue is two-fold, control and the fact that the parents aren't very well educated (the father is good with numbers, but has a terrible time reading). The father has come close to saying, insinuating, that he not only believes that the kids don't need any more of an education than he has, but that he doesn't want them to be anymore, or even equally, as educated as he is.

[ErinE]

Based on what the OP described, what this family is doing is morally wrong. If you research homeschoolers who hated being homeschooled, an overwhelming majority of the complaints come from children who were educationally neglected. I did a lot of research on the good and the bad of homeschooling before committing to this route. Children who enjoyed their experience were encouraged to pursue their interests and get a good education. The parents are doing a grave disservice to their children; one day they will be adults and know their own ignorance.

 

Does this rise to the level of criminal neglect? I don't think so. To me, that's what reporting them to CPS would require. Ultimately, if you report, you must be okay with parental loss of custody and understand the emotional and physical risks for the children. Although other PP describe mundane experiences with CPS, once the government becomes involved, the parents' control over the situation disappears and anything could happen. To trust the government won't go that far is to deny the realities of bureaucracy.

 

I know a person with PS children that can't read well or do basic math; homework is ignored and no enrichment activities are pursued. After school and all weekend, the kids are allowed to watch television, play digital media, and eat junk food. I think this is morally wrong, but I don't think it's criminal neglect. In my eyes, the OP's dilemma is the same.

 

I would do my best to gently introduce new concepts. For philosophies they admire, I would discuss writings that advocate more education. But I wouldn't report if the children are emotionally and physically healthy.

[Stacy in NJ]

How is it "reading" if they aren't reading or being taught to read?

 

Am I correct in presuming by your comment that if the kids were only being taught to enjoy hobbies and had no instruction in any subject, that that would be okay with you?

 

Firstly, some educational philosophies advocate reading to a child as the only means of teaching reading.

 

Secondly, it's not a question of what would be okay with me. It's not my decision, nor is it yours - really.

[Guest submarines]

About the literacy, I checked with my own kids who spent lots of time with the children. They verify what I observed and what the Dad told me:

 

The teens can read, but none under the age of 13 are proficient readers. The older teens can read and write. None of the children have finished elementary arithmetic.

 

The 10yo seems to be gifted at math and loves it, but can't proceed in her book because she can't read.

 

Okay, not being a proficient reader doesn't mean they can't read. It seems they are moving toward literacy at their own pace.

 

The 10 yo--this is truly sad. I'm having trouble invisioning this family's daily life and interactions. I wouldn't worry at all if a mathy 10 yo didn't read, but I would worry that no one is helping her to read instructions.

[Impish]

Yes, what do they DO all day? If they're the type of family the OP has made them out to be, they *are* being educated. I would be willing to bet the boys know how to measure and build (among other things) and the girls know how to cook and sew (among other things). These are skills you don't get by sitting down with books all day long and it is a valid educational philosophy whether it's what I would choose or not.

 

I'm relieved to know that the majority of posters in this thread would not report them. I find it disheartening, even repulsive, that some *would* choose to report. As my millionaire uncle just said to me two days ago,

 

"Our public schools are a mess. The unions have made education a buzz word that is synonymous with societal decay. Education is important, but it is not omni-important. It is more important to focus on making a difference with what you have, instead of what obtaining something additional might bring. Education is overrated. The unions and educated elite have made it seem like you cannot be successful if you do not have an education. Nothing could be further from the truth."

 

I could not get on board with sending these kids to public school just so someone could say they *did something*. You who say this may find this to be the moral high road but what morals are you standing on if that's ALL you did in this situation? The pedestal you're putting yourself on is weak, imo.

Your reasoning is flawed. By the same idea you've expressed, reporting a family that physically abuses their kids would also be taking the moral high road.

 

Reality of it is, as parents, we have a responsibility to not deliberately harm our children. Not providing a basic education, to ensure the kids have basic literacy, numeracy, to deliberately set out to keep them ignorant is abusive, it wreaks of control tactic. Slave owners deliberately didn't educate, and even punished those that attempted to b/c an ignorant person is easier to control.

 

If a *school* was consistently not acheiving literacy in all of it's students until 12-13 yrs old, ppl would be screaming for blood. Why is someone claiming the title of homeschooler magically exempt from any negative consequences when deliberately choosing educational neglect?

[mommaduck]

Firstly, some educational philosophies advocate reading to a child as the only means of teaching reading.

 

Secondly, it's not a question of what would be okay with me. It's not my decision, nor is it yours - really.

Correct. However, you asked me if it would be okay with me. I asked you the same. Regardless of whose decision it is or is not, the subject is still up for discussion.

[Alenee]

The state of the whole of public schools, or even individual ones are a red herring to the issue of neglect in this family.

 

In fact, it *detracts* from your arguement of the policy of non interference of parenting choice and authority. The quote is simply a vehicle for unrelated political commentary.

 

The quote is directly related to the god-like level people in this thread have made education. It had nothing to do with starting a political commentary.

 

The only action of the state would be to place these kids in public school. IMO, that is abuse, not only of the children, but of their power. The state simply has no infrastructure to deal with it in any other way. You call the family's choice "neglect". While it may be neglectful of a basic education, I don't place it at the same level of neglect you're using to justify your opinion.

[Alenee]

Your reasoning is flawed. By the same idea you've expressed, reporting a family that physically abuses their kids would also be taking the moral high road.

 

Not the same thing AT ALL. I don't view physical abuse/neglect to compare even a little to this situation.

[Rivka]

I'm shocked by the level of moral relativism on this thread, particularly from people who I'm pretty sure strongly condemn moral relativism in other contexts.

 

The slippery slope arguments drawn in this thread are absurd. Boy, if we report someone for not bothering to teach their preteen to read, then the next thing you know, our kids will be swept away by jackbooted state thugs because we use Charlotte Mason! It's all the same thing!

 

...No, it isn't. You might as well say that we shouldn't report someone who beats their kids until they're bruised and bloody, because, after all, someone might think we are too harsh for taking away our teenager's cell phone. You might as well say that we shouldn't report someone who leaves a broken leg to heal on its own, because someone might think we are medically neglectful for skipping a well-child visit or avoiding antibiotics for minor infections.

 

There d*mn well is a difference. This is not about whether everyone ought to be made to value a rigorous WTM-style education above all else. We're not talking about someone choosing Everyday Math or a feel-good "me and my community" social studies program. We're not talking about unschoolers who provide a rich prepared environment and support their children to freely pursue their intellectual passions. We're talking about people who are failing to provide their children with the most basic of educations.

 

If they were inner-city schoolteachers, we would excoriate them, and rightfully so. Why do they get a free pass because they're doing it to their own kids? Those kids aren't their property. They are American citizens who have rights of their own.

[stansclan89]

Yes, what do they DO all day? If they're the type of family the OP has made them out to be, they *are* being educated. I would be willing to bet the boys know how to measure and build (among other things) and the girls know how to cook and sew (among other things). These are skills you don't get by sitting down with books all day long and it is a valid educational philosophy whether it's what I would choose or not.

 

I'm relieved to know that the majority of posters in this thread would not report them. I find it disheartening, even repulsive, that some *would* choose to report. As my millionaire uncle just said to me two days ago,

 

"Our public schools are a mess. The unions have made education a buzz word that is synonymous with societal decay. Education is important, but it is not omni-important. It is more important to focus on making a difference with what you have, instead of what obtaining something additional might bring. Education is overrated. The unions and educated elite have made it seem like you cannot be successful if you do not have an education. Nothing could be further from the truth."

 

I could not get on board with sending these kids to public school just so someone could say they *did something*. You who say this may find this to be the moral high road but what morals are you standing on if that's ALL you did in this situation? The pedestal you're putting yourself on is weak, imo.

 

:iagree:

[Joanne]

The quote is directly related to the god-like level people in this thread have made education. It had nothing to do with starting a political commentary.

 

The only action of the state would be to place these kids in public school. IMO, that is abuse, not only of the children, but of their power. The state simply has no infrastructure to deal with it in any other way. You call the family's choice "neglect". While it may be neglectful of a basic education, I don't place it at the same level of neglect you're using to justify your opinion.

 

Even on that level, the quote was an epic fail. Red herrings, poor logic, and confused premise. It was a vehicle carrying an agenda, and does not apply.

 

Neglecting basic education is NEGLECT.

[lakotajm]

OP stated they live far away and she rarely sees them. And without internet, it would be hard to remotely do that. Maybe a letter writing campaign. I remember subscription programs used to be offered to kids where they would get fun lessons and puzzle books. Maybe something like that? I would buy them one of the Highlights series for Christmas, and maybe Ranger Rick or Zoobooks.

 

The parents ought to spend some time using the Bible to present phonics to the children, copywork, etc. Maybe that sow curriculum does that?

:iagree: Exactly why I just couldn't report someone. I know the situation really stinks. I'm glad you can come here and vent about it. Can you think of any way to help these kids without offending the parents? Maybe invite them over for a fun science day? A fun history party? A write-a-story day?

[Alenee]

Even on that level, the quote was an epic fail. Red herrings, poor logic, and confused premise. It was a vehicle carrying an agenda, and does not apply. AGAIN, I wholeheartedly disagree with you. :D

 

Neglecting basic education is NEGLECT.

 

You have always had your own standards and I think that's fantastic that you have the right to it. But I think you are misguided and I'm happy that I have the right to keep myself and my family far away from your form of "logic".

[LeslieAnneLevine]

The 10 yo--this is truly sad. I'm having trouble invisioning this family's daily life and interactions. I wouldn't worry at all if a mathy 10 yo didn't read, but I would worry that no one is helping her to read instructions.

 

Yes, this exactly. I don't have a problem with the concept of a child learning to read at age 12, there are other ways of learning lots of things, but that involves some help and guidance being given to the child.

 

I don't understand the concept of not having books in the house--do they not check books out from the library? Are the younger children allowed to listen to audiobooks? I disagree with reading nothing but the Bible to children who are not yet reading, but the kids do eventually learn to read and they are out in the world and around other people. The fact that the children are happy would be a huge factor for me. You can catch up on math and history, you can't catch up on having a happy childhood (not to mention the psychological damage an unhappy childhood, say one spent partially in foster care, does to people).

 

The biggest problem I have with the family is the religious set-up, with the mom being submissive and the dad authoritarian. However, as far as I know, that's not illegal. I wouldn't be calling any authorities.

 

I also heartily agree with Mrs. Mungo about not being able to rely on the system to solve the problem. If there were some easy solution to this that would come about by reporting them, then maybe that could be considered, but I don't think that's very realistic.

Edited December 3, 2011 by LeslieAnneLevine

[Guest submarines]

Yes, what do they DO all day? If they're the type of family the OP has made them out to be, they *are* being educated. I would be willing to bet the boys know how to measure and build (among other things) and the girls know how to cook and sew (among other things). These are skills you don't get by sitting down with books all day long and it is a valid educational philosophy whether it's what I would choose or not.

 

I'm relieved to know that the majority of posters in this thread would not report them. I find it disheartening, even repulsive, that some *would* choose to report. As my millionaire uncle just said to me two days ago,

 

"Our public schools are a mess. The unions have made education a buzz word that is synonymous with societal decay. Education is important, but it is not omni-important. It is more important to focus on making a difference with what you have, instead of what obtaining something additional might bring. Education is overrated. The unions and educated elite have made it seem like you cannot be successful if you do not have an education. Nothing could be further from the truth."

 

I could not get on board with sending these kids to public school just so someone could say they *did something*. You who say this may find this to be the moral high road but what morals are you standing on if that's ALL you did in this situation? The pedestal you're putting yourself on is weak, imo.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

 

Excellent quote too.

[Audrey]

For that, and the other things you posted in regard to their "educational techniques," yes. I'd report them. If the parents are going to employ ridiculousness in place of education, then the kids should be in school. They might not get an excellent education, but at least someone will be attempting to expose them to actual subjects of use, and even the craptacular school in my little town would be better than what those kids are getting now.

[Joanne]

You have always had your own standards and I think that's fantastic that you have the right to it. But I think you are misguided and I'm happy that I have the right to keep myself and my family far away from your form of "logic".

 

Logic is a studied, cohesive subject. Based on the established criteria for it, the quote I am critical of fails.

[Alenee]

Even on that level, the quote was an epic fail. Red herrings, poor logic, and confused premise. It was a vehicle carrying an agenda, and does not apply.

 

Neglecting basic education is NEGLECT.

 

I find it poor logic to put the two, physical abuse/neglect and educational neglect, at the same level. THAT is a red herring.

 

.....

[ThatCyndiGirl]

I'm shocked by the level of moral relativism on this thread, particularly from people who I'm pretty sure strongly condemn moral relativism in other contexts.

 

The slippery slope arguments drawn in this thread are absurd. Boy, if we report someone for not bothering to teach their preteen to read, then the next thing you know, our kids will be swept away by jackbooted state thugs because we use Charlotte Mason! It's all the same thing!

 

...No, it isn't. You might as well say that we shouldn't report someone who beats their kids until they're bruised and bloody, because, after all, someone might think we are too harsh for taking away our teenager's cell phone. You might as well say that we shouldn't report someone who leaves a broken leg to heal on its own, because someone might think we are medically neglectful for skipping a well-child visit or avoiding antibiotics for minor infections.

 

There d*mn well is a difference. This is not about whether everyone ought to be made to value a rigorous WTM-style education above all else. We're not talking about someone choosing Everyday Math or a feel-good "me and my community" social studies program. We're not talking about unschoolers who provide a rich prepared environment and support their children to freely pursue their intellectual passions. We're talking about people who are failing to provide their children with the most basic of educations.

 

If they were inner-city schoolteachers, we would excoriate them, and rightfully so. Why do they get a free pass because they're doing it to their own kids? Those kids aren't their property. They are American citizens who have rights of their own.

:iagree: OP, you stated that you are afraid that, if the kids were removed from the home, you would be responsible. No, you would NOT. The PARENTS would have been responsible for creating the environment for making that happen. This is all on THEM, not you.

 

How would you feel if, years from now, the kids said to you, "So you KNEW they weren't teaching us and you said nothing?"

 

If that sounds harsh I don't mean it to be. I like you and know you are struggling with this, but please make the call. The first move would be VERY unlikely removal of the kids unless the parents dig in their heels and refuse school. I can't think of a sane, logical parent who would say, "Yeah, I prefer you to take my kids away rather than put them into school". :001_huh: But, I know that they exist because we have seen the court cases.

 

It is abuse of power and neglect of the children.

 

Where is the line for the "no, do not call-EVER" crowd? 13 year old who can't read? 15 year old who can't read? 18 year old who can't read and now it's the kid's problem to figure it out for him/herself? Where does the "right" of the parent to neglect a kid's education end and the right of a kid to be educated begin?

[elegantlion]

The state of the whole of public schools, or even individual ones are a red herring to the issue of neglect in this family.

 

In fact, it *detracts* from your arguement of the policy of non interference of parenting choice and authority. The quote is simply a vehicle for unrelated political commentary.

 

The quote is at least equivocation (dig out your formal logic books folks). The quote from Alenee uses education as a term that goes beyond defining as the education of basic set of tools. In this family we are talking about the ability to read and write well enough to function in society, not the "education" as the ivory tower of rigorous classical education.

 

Basic education is necessary for a society, not the cause of its decay.

[Impish]

Not the same thing AT ALL. I don't view physical abuse/neglect to compare even a little to this situation.

Educational neglect IS neglect, so it absolutely compares. Directly.

 

The parents are deliberately making choices that will/do harm their children.

 

If I believed that dressing my kids in shorts and tshirts year round was the right thing to do, even though I live in a place where -30C winter temps is common, refused to provide my kids with winter gear and seasonally appropritate wear, I SHOULD be reported for neglect, regardless of my reasoning in my refusal. It's neglect, pure and simple.

 

Refusing to provide tools for education to a child is neglect.

 

It's like homeschooling has become a sacred cow. We dare not do anything about families who aren't educating their children out of fear someone might look at us. Ridiculous. Allowing these kids to be thrown under a bus for fear of judging/being judged is self serving.

Edited December 3, 2011 by Impish