Would you report a homeschooling family for educational neglect if...

[Alenee]

Educational neglect IS neglect, so it absolutely compares. Directly.

 

The parents are deliberately making choices that will/are harm their children.

 

If I believed that dressing my kids in shorts and tshirts year round was the right thing to do, even though I live in a place where -30C winter temps is common, refused to provide my kids with winter gear and seasonally appropritate wear, I SHOULD be reported for neglect, regardless of my reasoning in my refusal. It's neglect, pure and simple.

 

Refusing to provide tools for education to a child is neglect.

 

It's like homeschooling has become a sacred cow. We dare not do anything about families who aren't educating their children out of fear someone might look at us. Ridiculous. Allowing these kids to be thrown under a bus for fear of judging/being judged is self serving.

 

Again, I do not believe that physical neglect as you and others are trying to tie in to this conversation are the same as not teaching a child to read until 12-13 yo.

 

IF there was a GOOD infrastructure to *help* a family with a basic education w/o just throwing them into public school as the default, I might consider reporting them. There simply isn't a good plan for this.

[LeslieAnneLevine]

The comparisons to physical and emotional abuse and neglect are not appropriate. A child, and especially a teenager, can learn many things on his/her own, but cannot choose to not be abused or neglected.

I think of my mother's childhood: verbal abuse, neglect, alcoholism, poor PS education... A happy child in a loving family who is not expressly taught certain subjects makes for a very different situation. I'm not saying it's ideal, but some posts on this thread have been over-the-top, as if the children are in great peril if the OP doesn't do something fast.

[QueenCat]

The failure of the educational system in impoverished areas is tragic, but it is no excuse for people (expecially those with means) to purposefully not educate their children. Two wrongs do not make a right, and what these people are doing is unconscionable.

 

True!!!

 

The children can't read. You bet the children should be angry. Angry at their parents who willfully keep them ignorant, and angry at those who watched and remained silent while this takes place.

 

They will be when they grow up and people treat them like they are ignorant.

 

As Edmund Burke once said, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

 

 

 

It is intentional and premeditated neglect. How does one sit and do nothing?

 

I agree, they are neglectful. To me, in a major way. They are not only giving homeschoolers a bad name, they ARE neglecting their children in a way that will make life difficult for them when they reach adulthood.

 

Bill

 

 

Well said, Bill. In this situation, with the information shared in later posts by the OP, I would probably report them. From what I've seen around here, parents are given plenty of opportunity to fix this type of situation, without their children being removed from the home.

[Alenee]

The comparisons to physical and emotional abuse and neglect are not appropriate. A child, and especially a teenager, can learn many things on his/her own, but cannot choose to not be abused or neglected.

I think of my mother's childhood: verbal abuse, neglect, alcoholism, poor PS education... A happy child in a loving family who is not expressly taught certain subjects makes for a very different situation. I'm not saying it's ideal, but some posts on this thread have been over-the-top, as if the children are in great peril if the OP doesn't do something fast.

 

:iagree:

[ErinE]

The comparisons to physical and emotional abuse and neglect are not appropriate. A child, and especially a teenager, can learn many things on his/her own, but cannot choose to not be abused or neglected.

I think of my mother's childhood: verbal abuse, neglect, alcoholism, poor PS education... A happy child in a loving family who is not expressly taught certain subjects makes for a very different situation. I'm not saying it's ideal, but some posts on this thread have been over-the-top, as if the children are in great peril if the OP doesn't do something fast.

 

Agreed.

[Laura in STL]

Educational neglect IS neglect, so it absolutely compares. Directly.

 

The parents are deliberately making choices that will/do harm their children.

 

If I believed that dressing my kids in shorts and tshirts year round was the right thing to do, even though I live in a place where -30C winter temps is common, refused to provide my kids with winter gear and seasonally appropritate wear, I SHOULD be reported for neglect, regardless of my reasoning in my refusal. It's neglect, pure and simple.

 

Refusing to provide tools for education to a child is neglect.

 

It's like homeschooling has become a sacred cow. We dare not do anything about families who aren't educating their children out of fear someone might look at us. Ridiculous. Allowing these kids to be thrown under a bus for fear of judging/being judged is self serving.

 

:iagree:

I don't know where this family lives, but in our state they would not be meeting the requirements for homeschooling. And the requirements here are very broad. Allowing your children to be grade levels behind in reading and math should not be acceptable, assuming the children do not have special needs. It's one thing if they are behind but parents are working with them. It doesn't sound like that's the case here.

[kalanamak]

 

Someone upthread mentioned that the Dad sounded a little paranoid, and I would go along with that.

 

Given how common monkey business is in families, could he be willing to keep his kids ignorant to help him play out something sick? Could not joining in be away of keep illegal activities private?

[StephanieZ]

These children are being abused and neglected. You have a moral duty to report this crime against children.

 

Bill

 

I have to agree.

 

These kinds of parents are the reason why I regretfully think that some degree of gov't oversight of homeschooling is a necessary evil. I don't believe it is acceptable to choose to NOT educate children. Homeschooling should not be an allowable cover for homeneglecting.

 

What the gov't does with the information is up to the gov't and will likely vary a lot by locality. Personally, I think the gov't should intervene and require a proper education, presumably in either public school or in an acceptable private school. I do not think these parents should be allowed to continue to "homeschool."

[mommaduck]

Yes, even in the "easiest" states to homeschool in, there are standards to be met. Ex. in Illinois, sure you didn't have to keep records, you didn't have to report, and you could school at your own pace or manner. However, there were subjects that were required and a "reasonable" education was expected. If you were hauled into court under suspicion of educational neglect, you would be expected to prove that reasonable/adequate education was taking place. The burden of proof was on you, the parent. There are expectations and educational neglect can be found as criminal, a breaking of the law.

[nmoira]

Given only what the OP has communicated, I'd report them in a heartbeat -- not for failing to actively educate, but for actively working to prevent their self-education. I know some radical homeschooling families that would make many here twitchy, but in most cases the parents and the children share a passionate curiosity about the world and none of the kids are cloistered away from society. Some of the kids may have learned to read "late," but they were far from ignorant and were able to make huge strides in a short period of time. What the parents in question is doing is inexcusable.

[StephanieZ]

It appears to me that in many places, you would be LEGALLY MANDATED to report suspected neglect (and presumably vulnerable to prosecution yourself for failure to do so.) So, if you are making a choice to not report, you might want to research your local laws and be aware of the consequences to yourself for your failure to protect these kids.

 

"In approximately 18 States and Puerto Rico, any person who suspects child abuse or neglect is required to report. Of these 18 States, 16 States and Puerto Rico specify certain professionals who must report but also require all persons to report suspected abuse or neglect, regardless of profession.6 New Jersey and Wyoming require all persons to report without specifying any professions. In all other States, territories, and the District of Columbia, any person is permitted to report. These voluntary reporters of abuse are often referred to as 'permissive reporters.' "

 

 

http://www.childwelfare.gov/systemwide/laws_policies/statutes/manda.cfm

[Lang Syne Boardie]

It appears to me that in many places, you would be LEGALLY MANDATED to report suspected neglect (and presumably vulnerable to prosecution yourself for failure to do so.) So, if you are making a choice to not report, you might want to research your local laws and be aware of the consequences to yourself for your failure to protect these kids.

 

"In approximately 18 States and Puerto Rico, any person who suspects child abuse or neglect is required to report. Of these 18 States, 16 States and Puerto Rico specify certain professionals who must report but also require all persons to report suspected abuse or neglect, regardless of profession.6 New Jersey and Wyoming require all persons to report without specifying any professions. In all other States, territories, and the District of Columbia, any person is permitted to report. These voluntary reporters of abuse are often referred to as 'permissive reporters.' "

 

 

http://www.childwelfare.gov/systemwide/laws_policies/statutes/manda.cfm

 

By this standard, I'd be required to report all sorts of people on the internet for educational neglect, members of these forums included. See the other thread about how to define educational neglect. It's a very blurry line.

 

Furthermore, if we're talking about a mandate to report illiteracy as a sign of neglect, I'll have to turn in two dozen local families I know. Of course, they are all public-schooled children. CPS will have lots of fun with that!

 

No, I won't live under such tyranny nor help it along.

 

Thankfully, my state's laws do not require me to report on a family in another state for suspected (or merely opined) educational neglect.

[Cheryl in NM]

Requirements for New Mexico homeschoolers:

1. immunize and maintain records

2. comply with compulsory education laws of educating 180 days per year and maintain calendar

3. the parent homeschooling must have at least a GED

4. home schools must be registered with the state department of education every year

 

These are the only requirements. There are no reporting requirements; no minimum education requirements.

 

If these parents are the religious zealots they are presented as being I'm guessing their kids are educated more than 180 days per year.

 

For whomever said that abuse is common in families now-I believe that is a stretch. The definition of abuse is forever widening to include things like restricting phone and internet access. So I guess if that's abuse, come slap the cuffs the on me and take away my kid.

 

Most unschooling proponents believe that children lead their own education. They do not actively teach anything unless a child asks and then often, leave the learning to the child. I know a nationally recognized unschool guru personally. Her daughter begged people to teach her to read because her mother was on the computer all day and didn't have time. There are problems every where. The unschooling books I've read don't advocate teaching children to read at an early age. Unwise - maybe; neglectful - no; abusive - definitely not.

 

I know we have unschoolers on this board. I've read threads where some people who are advocating reporting the OP couple to CPS have encouraged our WTM unschoolers. Guess what? The OP couple have a curriculum they are following. Many unschoolers do nothing on a daily basis with their children of an educational nature.

 

Again, the dichotomy of some of you on this board is baffling to me. The ever increasing definition of abuse is disturbing at best.

Edited December 3, 2011 by Cheryl in NM

[Joanne]

Requirements for New Mexico homeschoolers:

1. immunize and maintain records

2. comply with compulsory education laws of educating 180 days per year and maintain calendar

3. the parent homeschooling must have at least a GED

4. home schools must be registered with the state department of education every year

 

These are the only requirements. There are no reporting requirements; no minimum education requirements.

 

If these parents are the religious zealots they are presented as being I'm guessing their kids are educated more than 180 days per year.

 

For whomever said that abuse is common in families now-I believe that is a stretch. The definition of abuse is forever widening to include things like restricting phone and internet access. So I guess if that's abuse, come slap the cuffs the on me and take away my kid.

 

Most unschooling proponents believe that children lead their own education. They do not actively teach anything unless a child asks and then often, leave the learning to the child. I know a nationally recognized unschool guru personally. Her daughter begged people to teach her to read because her mother was on the computer all day and didn't have time. There are problems every where. The unschooling books I've read don't advocate teaching children to read at an early age. Unwise - maybe; neglectful - no; abusive - definitely not.

 

I know we have unschoolers on this board. I've read threads where some people who are advocating reporting the OP couple to CPS have encouraged our WTM unschoolers. Guess what? The OP couple have a curriculum they are following. Many unschoolers do nothing on a daily basis with their children of an educational nature.

 

Again, the dichotomy of some of you on this board is baffling to me. The ever increasing definition of abuse is disturbing at best.

 

 

Threads about *unschooling* tends to be overwhelmingly in the tone of "not my thing but hands off".

 

There is NO curriculum or intention instruction or enriched learning opportunities (a la unschooling) in the case presented by the OP.

 

I don't see dichotomy; I see sacred cow.

[Cheryl in NM]

Threads about *unschooling* tends to be overwhelmingly in the tone of "not my thing but hands off".

 

There is NO curriculum or intention instruction or enriched learning opportunities (a la unschooling) in the case presented by the OP.

 

I don't see dichotomy; I see sacred cow.

 

Actually, they use the Bible, it used to be used as the standard moral, reading and writing text in the USA. They use math workbooks. That is curriculum. They read to their children.

 

You just don't like it so it's evil.

 

You don't see the dichotomy because you don't want to. What exactly is the "sacred cow" you are referring to? Unschooling? or the Bible? I don't see that religion or the Bible has been made an issue in this case or this thread.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Actually, they use the Bible, it used to be used as the standard moral, reading and writing text in the USA. They use math workbooks. That is curriculum. They read to their children.

 

You just don't like it so it's evil.

 

You don't see the dichotomy because you don't want to. What exactly is the "sacred cow" you are referring to? Unschooling? or the Bible? I don't see that religion or the Bible has been made an issue in this case or this thread.

 

Can't speak for Joanne, but I assume she means that the Christian Homeschooler is the sacred cow. Nobody must have an opinion, judge, or intervene when Christian Homeschoolers do really nutty things because of the untouchable beliefs of Christian Homeschoolers.

 

I am sympathetic to this viewpoint, even though my actions at the end of my thinking are different.

 

I see nothing defensible about Vision Forum, ATI/Gothard, FLDS, or any other system that deliberately obstructs the education and opportunities of women. This all is a sacred cow in the homeschool community, in my opinion, and we should tip that cow in public as often as possible.

 

I just don't believe the public school system or the judicial system can really solve these problems. I believe they are more likely to make things worse.

Edited December 3, 2011 by Tibbie Dunbar

[Cricket]

I, too, am curious how they spend the rest of their day (in general). There are a lot of ways to learn outside of textbooks and worksheets, many of them just as valid and sometimes even more so. I can even understand delaying formal reading instruction if they favor the "Better Late Than Early" philosophy (like in the Moores' book) even if age 12 does seem a bit TOO late to a lot of us. I don't know. No, I would not be inclined to "report" them, especially if I thought they were learning in other ways and encouraging hobbies, interests, and loving and providing for them etc.

 

:iagree: The OP stated that this family is choosing to educate this way for now. We don't know what educational path the family has been following up until now. I don't see where the OP stated that the children are being prevented from learning, just that formal instruction isn't there right now. The children are using the library so we don't know what they are reading. It is disturbing that the 10 yo dd isn't reading yet. (Or, I wonder, if she is like my 8 yo dd who reads fine but will still tell people she can't? :glare:).

 

Like others have said, I don't believe educational neglect is the same degree of harm to a child as physical or sexual abuse or physical neglect such as not providing food.

 

If I was in the OP's position, I would do what she is doing--not report but find ways to help. I might also have a conversation with the mother and find out if something else is going on--depression, feeling overwhelmed, or if this is simply a shift in priorities. We've taken time off too to deal with character issues, to establish a routine we could follow through with, focus on a subject or two we feel like we have neglected. It wasn't for a year or two though.....

[Jenny in GA]

I know a nationally recognized unschool guru personally. Her daughter begged people to teach her to read because her mother was on the computer all day and didn't have time.

 

 

Did they? Teach her to read, I mean.

Did you -- or anyone -- tell the mother that her daughter was going around saying this? If so, what was her reaction?

 

Do you know how, or if, the girl, ever learn to read?

[kiana]

Actually, they use the Bible, it used to be used as the standard moral, reading and writing text in the USA. They use math workbooks. That is curriculum. They read to their children.

 

You just don't like it so it's evil.

 

But it's not being used (apparently) as a reading or writing text but solely a moral text.

 

I would have no problem if they chose to teach reading only using the Bible as long as they're able to read. (Well, I would still consider it awfully limiting, but I wouldn't consider it something reportable.)

[Happy2BaMom]

Refusing to provide tools for education to a child is neglect.

 

It's like homeschooling has become a sacred cow. We dare not do anything about families who aren't educating their children out of fear someone might look at us. Ridiculous. Allowing these kids to be thrown under a bus for fear of judging/being judged is self serving.

 

Well said.

[Pamela H in Texas]

I'm shocked by the level of moral relativism on this thread, particularly from people who I'm pretty sure strongly condemn moral relativism in other contexts.

 

Basically, I absolutely believe there is right and wrong regarding this topic and many others. I also believe that even when there is a right and wrong, it is the responsibility of the people to choose which way to go (and even to remain ignorant so as to be unable to make the right choice).

 

Now, sometimes it is very cut and dry. There either *is* a fiery hell in which some people are going to burn forever miserably or there is not. Homeschooling is less clear cut. We *all* agree there are many possibilities as for homeschool styles, curricula, etc. Very few homeschoolers would suggest every single person should homeschool in the exact same way with the exact same materials regardless of the family and individual child. Is there a right and wrong about this topic? I believe so! However, I don't believe I have the right to say {you} have to stay within my belief about it just like I don't say {you} have to believe the same about hell as I do. Either way, there are consequences (positive and/or negative). I'll deal with mine and {you} deal with {yours}.

[Cheryl in NM]

Did they? Teach her to read, I mean.

Did you -- or anyone -- tell the mother that her daughter was going around saying this? If so, what was her reaction?

 

Do you know how, or if, the girl, ever learn to read?

 

I didn't tell the mother; we weren't on the best of terms me being a WTMer and all. ;) I was abusive for expecting my 6 year old to complete about an hours worth of school work a day according to her. I don't know if anyone told her.

 

 

According to one of the mother's writings, the girl wanted to learn to play a video game, picked up the instruction manual and taught herself to read. This family were very avid gamers.

 

I saw a video online that the girl posted a few years ago and she says she did, in fact, learn to read. The video is gone now.

[Cheryl in NM]

Can't speak for Joanne, but I assume she means that the Christian Homeschooler is the sacred cow. Nobody must have an opinion, judge, or intervene when Christian Homeschoolers do really nutty things because of the untouchable beliefs of Christian Homeschoolers.

 

I am sympathetic to this viewpoint, even though my actions at the end of my thinking are different.

 

I see nothing defensible about Vision Forum, ATI/Gothard, FLDS, or any other system that deliberately obstructs the education and opportunities of women. This all is a sacred cow in the homeschool community, in my opinion, and we should tip that cow in public as often as possible.

 

I just don't believe the public school system or the judicial system can really solve these problems. I believe they are more likely to make things worse.

 

There are circles where speaking against unschooling is treated the same way. I guess it just depends on the circle in which you are speaking.

 

I don't have to agree with something to defend another's right to be able to do it. I just hesitate to involve the government in our lives any more than they already are.

[Pamela H in Texas]

AND I have read in this thread that these people are not neglecting to give children an education at all. Instead, their how, what and when is significantly different than the majority of us. Additionally, though, I do believe a child can learn to read at 13yrs old and yet, by 18 or so have a solid basic education. The biggest issue I have with what these people are doing is that they aren't valuing education AND they have them so sheltered (it seems) that they may not *know* to seek out an education if they want it. I don't agree with their choices. I don't think school or CPS is the answer.

Edited December 3, 2011 by 2J5M9K

[kolamum]

So, I know the situation is probably very different, but it does strike a cord with me because from the outside, we probably look very similar. There are many reasons why families make certain choices for their children. Unless you are intimately involved with the family ane are SURE you know what you are talking about, secure and loved children with good parents should be given the benefit of the doubt as long as possible. I am also a social worker and would report abuse in a heartbeat, but you also need to make sure you have all the facts.

 

Ahh, but the difference here is you ARE educating your children. You are doing it per a Dr's "prescription". Thus, if your friend felt your children were under educated you'd have 2 firm legs to stand on. Further more, if investigated you'd also have that to fall back on. Your children will not grow up and be incapable, but rather will feel secure knowing Mom took it easy when they needed it.

 

But this can go two ways. I may get swept under the rug now, then in 10-15 years one of these kids from this family in question realizes how he/she has been gypped of an education and then works to make the laws in that particular state tougher for homeschoolers.

 

Then let's see the homeschoolers complaining about how someone should have stepped in to save this young person and his/her siblings. The law doesn't need to be changed. It just needs to be enforced. Yadda, yadda, yadda.

 

Conceivably either way someone could make it harder for homeschoolers in general in the state in question because of this family's educational neglect.

 

 

Absolutely! And anyone who is a homeschooler and wishes to protect homeschooling should be aware of this very fact!! If we turn a blind eye because we wouldn't want someone to report us on an "off day" then we make it harder for our children to homeschool and their children and on down the line! Have you considered how much the homeschooling laws have changed over the years? Sure, some for the better, but not all of them!!

 

How many times does homeschooling get a bad rap because of an extremist? Every time that happens we risk the ability to keep homeschooling our children legally. Here's a family that blatently refuses help & yet doesn't give their child the boost up.

 

This is NOT about method of homeschooling, it's about merely choosing NOT to educate their children. I could care less if they are unschoolers, Mason followers, WTMers, Eclectic, or work-bookers.. If they were ONE of those they'd be doing SOMETHING. They are none of those and thus doing nothing. How unfair is it that their 10 year old is a whiz at math, but can't move forward because he can't read?

 

And, because of the home life mentioned it makes me wonder if the lack of education is intentional. The less they know the more reliant they are upon the parents. The more reliant they are upon the parents the less they will push to leave the home. Yet, well raised children, even well raised educated children, can still respect their parents wishes to not leave home.

 

Aren't Amish people allowed to stop educating their kids after grade 8? Is that educational neglect, or simply a legal choice? The children learn to read and think by adulthood. That is the gateway to all the other knowledge that is out there. So assuming they are not chained or lobotomized as adults, they are not being prevented from going down a different path as adults.

 

As do some Mennonite children, BUT they ARE educated before the age of 13. They ARE taught to be a contributing member of society. They ARE taught how to read and do maths and leave school and are able to be apprenticed or

are educated enough to survive.

 

Just b/c someone claims the title of homeschooler doesn't mean that they are.

 

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

[Holly IN]

I will not report. It is NOT my place to say if any homeschooler's are neglecting educationally. All I know it will backfire on all of us. :)

 

So I do not even go there. I do not even want to know what others are doing regarding homeschooling.

 

Holly

[Iucounu]

These children are definitely the victims of intentional educational neglect. In addition, it's untrue that listening to one's father read from the Bible can possibly provide a well-rounded education. I'm amazed that living in the vicinity of a public library, on the part of an illiterate child, can be considered to be education of that child.

 

It's also a red herring to discuss children who aren't properly educated in the public school system. The existence of one form of neglect doesn't rule out the existence of others.

 

In this case, it really doesn't matter whether the father intends the children to inherit a family business, etc. That's no more a valid excuse for withholding a basic education than would be the father's decision that his children should all become janitors or garbage collectors, and not have the choice to go to college. It's simply unfair to the children to restrain their choices upon adulthood.

 

I can see the college interviews now: "What sort of education did you receive?" "Well, my dad read to us from the Bible every day, even though we couldn't read for many years. We did do some math workbooks." "What sort of extra dimension do you feel you'd add to the student body here?" "Well, I can certainly contribute my father's views on the Bible." There's just too much richness missing for this to constitute an adequate education; no exposure to literature, art, etc. etc. etc. Doing minimal math does not suffice for a minimally competent instruction in science, etc.

 

No, these children's plight needs to be reported. They won't be taken from their parents; the state will simply get involved and force them to receive some sort of education.

Edited December 3, 2011 by Iucounu

[nmoira]

I hadn't had time to read the entire thread before posting earlier. My earlier opinion has not changed wih respect to this being educational neglect, but I think it's worse than that insofar as the the father as set up his system such as to maximize the power exerted over his (eventual) young adult and adult children. He is a man of some financial means and intends to support them presumably as long as they follow his rules; however, by not educating them he's ensuring that their likelihood for success at an independent life is miniscule indeed. What realistic options will these kids have?

[radiobrain]

I hadn't had time to read the entire thread before posting earlier. My earlier opinion has not changed wih respect to this being educational neglect, but I think it's worse than that insofar as the the father as set up his system such as to maximize the power exerted over his (eventual) young adult and adult children. He is a man of some financial means and intends to support them presumably as long as they follow his rules; however, by not educating them he's ensuring that their likelihood for success at an independent life is miniscule indeed. What realistic options will these kids have?

 

I actually have flip flopped back and forth while reading through the thread (although I still never read the pages between the OP and my response, LOL). I agree with this, mostly.

 

I feel that this is some weird combo of bad things, not one. Like a perfect storm of crap. You have the uber patriarch issue, the educational "iffyness" issue, the lovely parental "laziness" issue, and then some.

 

There is no ONE issue. The only thing that seems to not be going on is the really bad stuff (physical/sexual abuse).

 

To narrow it down only to the educational neglect issue is not quite right. My red flags are going off for the other stuff. I think any extreme (radical unschooling to the 8-3 at a school desk and a little Pearl action thrown in) is usually a VERY BAD IDEA.

 

OH NO!! I HAVE TO MAKE MY KID DINNER AND WON"T BE ABLE TO FINISH MY COMMENT! ARG!

[mcconnellboys]

I think that if you're going to do that, you're going to have to seek out and report all "unschoolers," too....

[chepyl]

Sadly, I lean toward 'can't be bothered.' I've offered everything from curriculum catalogs to my own books. I floated the idea of myself teaching a class or two over the internet and they had no interest in that. I didn't offer to cover the 3Rs or anything comprehensive, just to share in some neat things I was doing with my own children at the time. I hoped it would get me in the door as an online teaching resource for the children, but the parents didn't want anything to do with that idea.

 

I truly don't understand these decisions on their part.

 

I have been following this thread all day, and have been unable to respond until now. Until I read the above post, I was with the group that said "don't report." But the idea that you feel the just "can't be bothered" to educate their children is a HUGE problem.

 

It is one thing to unschool and let your child follow their interests - to do so, they need to read and will want to learn. My understanding of unschooling is that when the child shows interest, you teach. These kids will learn a lot.

 

The family you are talking about seems to be purposely holding their kids back. IF they were sitting at the table each reading a chapter or two aloud to the family and then discussing it...I might feel a little differently. BUT the fact that they only listen to the dad read, and read nothing for themselves bothers me.

 

I also know that there are children who have learned to read later, but at 12-13, not being a proficient reader is a real problem! For the 10 year old who is good at, and enjoys math - they are doing him/her and great disservice. If these kids decide they want to go to college, they will have a long way to go. They may have no other option than a GED to get into college. If they are still weak readers, they will struggle to finish that test.

 

They are causing their children physical harm, not immediately; but if their children are unable to function in society and unable to get jobs when they are adults, they will be unable to provide food, clothing and shelter for themselves. Are mom and dad going to support them forever?

 

I would have to pray a lot about reporting, but something needs to be done. I agree that I think a warning to the family, is in order. Then a call to CPS if they don't make changes. If they were part of a church, I would try to reach the pastor of the church and express my concerns. This is a tough situation, I hope you are able to make peace with the situation and your decision.

[momma aimee]

the parents told you that they are only studying Bible and a little math, and that's all they'll be doing next year, too?

 

I've made my decision, so I'm not really looking for advice. I'm just wondering how other homeschoolers see such an extreme case of failure to teach, and whether you'd feel a responsibility to report this to any kind of authorities in some way.

 

My decision: I am absolutely not going to say a word to anyone. Not while I personally know many public school graduates who can barely read their own diplomas and don't seem to know anything, and nobody accuses their parents or teachers of educational neglect.

 

Also, I'm not going to help bring about the disruption of a very happy family in which the children are otherwise loved and cared for.

 

That's not to say I'm not horrified. I am very upset.

 

What would you do? There are more than half a dozen children aged 2 to16. They live on the other side of the country from me and we don't meet often.

 

I hate to say it -- but it depends.

 

a 12 yo that could not read, or do simply math and could not write her name and this was the approah -- quite possibly

 

a 6 yo that was starting to read and draw him letters -- nope ...

[momma aimee]

I will not report. It is NOT my place to say if any homeschooler's are neglecting educationally. All I know it will backfire on all of us. :)

 

So I do not even go there. I do not even want to know what others are doing regarding homeschooling.

 

Holly

 

 

I see it the other way -- if homeschoolers give neglectful or abuseive situations a pass to "not look bad" then in the end we look worse ... like we don't have standards and expectation .......

 

I'd never NOT report a female for neglect because i am a female and don't want to make girls look bad ---

[Laura Corin]

And while you may be comfortable with this definition, some Americans would find the "as long as this does not reduce the child's chance to adopt some other form of life in later years, should he or she wish to do so" incredibly vague and intrusive. In fact, it could be used as an excuse to eliminate some folk's right to home school altogether.

 

It is trying not to be overly prescriptive and is therefore avoiding the problems that you describe. It is not saying 'You must study so many hours of maths and so many hours of English....' It is saying: 'Look around, what will the child need to function in society?'

 

I wasn't suggesting that such a law would be appropriate for the US - I do have an understanding of the constitutional differences. Instead I suggested the phrasing as a possible yardstick - i.e., something against which an individual might wish to measure his or her own actions and decide whether there is a shortfall.

 

Laura

[Laura Corin]

And while you may be comfortable with this definition, some Americans would find the "as long as this does not reduce the child's chance to adopt some other form of life in later years, should he or she wish to do so" incredibly vague and intrusive. In fact, it could be used as an excuse to eliminate some folk's right to home school altogether.

 

It is trying not to be overly prescriptive. It is not saying 'You must study so many hours of maths and so many hours of English....' It is saying: 'Look around, what will the child need to function in society?'

 

I wasn't suggesting that such a law would be appropriate for the US - I have an understanding of the constitutional differences. Instead I suggested the phrasing as a possible 'yardstick' - i.e., something against which an individual might wish to measure his or her own actions and decide whether there is a shortfall.

 

Laura

[Joanne]

I think that if you're going to do that, you're going to have to seek out and report all "unschoolers," too....

 

 

This is not unschooling.

[Jennifer3141]

I see it the other way -- if homeschoolers give neglectful or abuseive situations a pass to "not look bad" then in the end we look worse ... like we don't have standards and expectation .......

 

I'd never NOT report a female for neglect because i am a female and don't want to make girls look bad ---

 

That rubbed me the wrong way too, Aimee.

 

As homeschoolers, wouldn't it be best if we were responsible to the kids in our educaitonal system instead of IGNORING serious issues?? I love my children passionately but I wouldn't ignore kids in trouble if they were homeschooled because I don't want us all to look bad. I'd rather we as a group "self-corrected" BEFORE we needed the government to get involved.

 

I think the OP posted that these people live across the country from her, didn't she? What particular problems would that pose to reporting?

[Iucounu]

Perhaps, in discussing just what constitutes educational neglect, we could at least agree on some situations comprising it. I would suggest as a possible first entry on which all reasonable people could agree:

 

Retarding a child's academic development, with the intentional result of the child being academically behind age/grade peers.

 

... or perhaps just:

 

Intentionally retarding a child's academic development.

[Wabi Sabi]

There are some states where, for better or worse, there are virtually no regulations or requirements of homeschoolers. I live in such a state and wouldn't be surprised to find out that this family lives in such state as well.

 

The absolute only thing my state requires is that parents keep attendance records and can show that the child attended school 180 days out of the year. I've never once heard of anyone actually being asked for their attendance records though. No specific subjects to be taught, no testing, no oversight, no registering or reporting to anyone, nothing.

[tex-mex]

They are non-affiliated VF/ATI people. They didn't go to the Basic Seminar but they bought Wisdom Booklets curriculum (which they hated and never used). They don't go to a regular church, but most of their friends are in VF-style churches and environments. I think the Dad doesn't like being under the authority of a specific church.

 

If something happened to both parents the children would probably not go to public school. They'd probably go to relatives and friends, and most of them are homeschooling families. All those relatives and friends that I know of would provide a good education and home.

 

I suspect this is the crux of the matter. Dad is in rebellion to anything in authority, it appears? :confused: And the dad is raising the children how he sees fit -- which is a slippery slope for us all.

 

Being an illiterate hermit who avoids church membership is very far from the Vision Forum way. VF is highly pro-church membership (for accountability as well as fellowship). They encourage Christians to seek out like-minded fellow Christians. They encourage hospitality, long discussions and debates, and try to have wholesome, fun learning experiences.

 

Your friends sound a little odd -- and possibly paranoid -- but again, I think part of the story is missing.

 

We do not know if the family is avoiding fellowship. All we know is the educational aspect is lacking. The Bates family (ATI/Gothard disciples) attend a church while the Duggar family (ATI/Gothard) has its own homechurch that meets from home to home. We are not ATI/Gothard by any means -- but we attend a homechurch too -- it is seen as going against mainline denominations, but it fits us fine.

 

Someone broke the rules. Those are not allowed to be sold or passed on. They are only allowed to be sold by ATI to ATI (Advanced Seminar) Alumni.

:iagree:

 

But this can go two ways. I may get swept under the rug now, then in 10-15 years one of these kids from this family in question realizes how he/she has been gypped of an education and then works to make the laws in that particular state tougher for homeschoolers.

 

Then let's see the homeschoolers complaining about how someone should have stepped in to save this young person and his/her siblings. The law doesn't need to be changed. It just needs to be enforced. Yadda, yadda, yadda.

 

Conceivably either way someone could make it harder for homeschoolers in general in the state in question because of this family's educational neglect.

 

:iagree: This is the part that troubles me the most. How this situation will affect all homeschoolers and society uses it as an example for more regulation or laws. And I do hope those kids can be productive members of society -- but am troubled by the fact they are not being prepared or given an opportunity to reach their dreams in life. Quite sad.

[tex-mex]

This is why I actually am for some educational oversight of homeschoolers by the state. I think that requiring yearly achievement tests isn't too onerous or silly. And most states that require this also require yearly "progress" which would accommodate those with LDs and other disabilities.

I don't mind annual standardized testing. But for many homeschoolers, that is a battle cry -- and how "dare we suggest" what to tell them how their child should be homeschooled. :glare: Slippery slope.

[Jean in Newcastle]

This is not unschooling.

 

Other than the patriarchal thing, the lack of education is surprisingly similar to radical unschoolers (as opposed to other kinds of unschoolers).

[SKL]

Perhaps, in discussing just what constitutes educational neglect, we could at least agree on some situations comprising it. I would suggest as a possible first entry on which all reasonable people could agree:

 

Retarding a child's academic development, with the intentional result of the child being academically behind age/grade peers.

 

... or perhaps just:

 

Intentionally retarding a child's academic development.

 

So then redshirting is educational neglect.

[elegantlion]

Other than the patriarchal thing, the lack of education is surprisingly similar to radical unschoolers (as opposed to other kinds of unschoolers).

 

But are radical unschooling parents as complacent about their child's education? I'm seriously asking, because I don't know. Another post suggests this mother turns down any educational suggestions and does not take opportunity to fulfill a child's desire to learn.

 

 

I think the big question being posed is whether homeschoolers should police themselves.

 

Is there need for an intermediary group that would step up in situations like this? Like an intervention for homeschoolers.

[kiana]

Other than the patriarchal thing, the lack of education is surprisingly similar to radical unschoolers (as opposed to other kinds of unschoolers).

 

I would also report radical unschoolers who had a non-reading but otherwise normal child over ten, regardless of their religious beliefs. :P

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

Educational neglect is a serious issue...it is serious whether the family are homeschoolers or using the public education system (or a private school for that matter). Educational neglect happens in both.

 

The question I would ask myself is...is the level of neglect so serious that it warrants having the children removed from the home, forced into a traditional school setting, etc. What would the impact of this be on the family and the children? Which situation is worse? How would those kids cope once they were "in the system"?

 

In some cases the answer is that the system is better but not always.

 

Reporting cases of abuse and neglect should be done to improve a child's situation. To report a family I would need to be confident that this would be the outcome. I don't know this family and therefore can't judge. Just giving some food for thought.

[Guest submarines]

Perhaps, in discussing just what constitutes educational neglect, we could at least agree on some situations comprising it. I would suggest as a possible first entry on which all reasonable people could agree:

 

Retarding a child's academic development, with the intentional result of the child being academically behind age/grade peers.

 

... or perhaps just:

 

Intentionally retarding a child's academic development.

 

Waldorf followers or those who believe in delaying academics would then be educationally neglectful. Educational neglect should be qualified by a child's age.

 

The concept of being behind is not relevant to children up to 7 years old (and others might disagree and offer their own definitions.)

 

What if children in primary schools are covering subjects that you oppose for this age group (based on your religious or moral stance)? Is it then okay to be 'behind'?

 

What does 'retarding academic development' even mean? Preventing a child from learning? If so, how? Restricting subject matter? What about this being a matter of belief (new earth vs. Darwenian evolution, for example)?

 

What about who homeschool and don't care about "grade levels?" Is a 10 year old who reads highschool level books, excells in dance, speaks several languages, and is only doing second grade level math, academically neglected because his parents don't care about grade levels?

[Stacy in NJ]

As a matter of law, it's horrible. Vagueness in the law isn't usually helpful. While it could be interpreted as not being overly prescriptive, its vagueness could also be used to prosecute unjustly.

 

It is trying not to be overly prescriptive and is therefore avoiding the problems that you describe. It is not saying 'You must study so many hours of maths and so many hours of English....' It is saying: 'Look around, what will the child need to function in society?'

 

I wasn't suggesting that such a law would be appropriate for the US - I do have an understanding of the constitutional differences. Instead I suggested the phrasing as a possible yardstick - i.e., something against which an individual might wish to measure his or her own actions and decide whether there is a shortfall.

 

Laura

 

ETA: Just to provide an examle: If a conservative Christian family taught that homosexuality was sinful the state could take the position that the family was "reducing the childs ability to adopt some other form of life in later years." And, in that respect, it looks like the wording was intentional.

Edited December 4, 2011 by Stacy in NJ

[WIS0320]

I'm shocked by the level of moral relativism on this thread, particularly from people who I'm pretty sure strongly condemn moral relativism in other contexts.

 

The slippery slope arguments drawn in this thread are absurd. Boy, if we report someone for not bothering to teach their preteen to read, then the next thing you know, our kids will be swept away by jackbooted state thugs because we use Charlotte Mason! It's all the same thing!

 

...No, it isn't. You might as well say that we shouldn't report someone who beats their kids until they're bruised and bloody, because, after all, someone might think we are too harsh for taking away our teenager's cell phone. You might as well say that we shouldn't report someone who leaves a broken leg to heal on its own, because someone might think we are medically neglectful for skipping a well-child visit or avoiding antibiotics for minor infections.

 

There d*mn well is a difference. This is not about whether everyone ought to be made to value a rigorous WTM-style education above all else. We're not talking about someone choosing Everyday Math or a feel-good "me and my community" social studies program. We're not talking about unschoolers who provide a rich prepared environment and support their children to freely pursue their intellectual passions. We're talking about people who are failing to provide their children with the most basic of educations.

 

If they were inner-city schoolteachers, we would excoriate them, and rightfully so. Why do they get a free pass because they're doing it to their own kids? Those kids aren't their property. They are American citizens who have rights of their own.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Mandy in TN]

hmm, my almost automatic response is that I would not consider reporting parents solely for the educational choices that they make for their family. If there were other abuse or neglect, I would certainly consider doing so.

 

However, if this were a family that I knew personally and talked to frequently, I would impress upon them that their choices may could be considered educational neglect by the courts. I would express my sadness and frustration at their lax attitude regarding their children's education and would strongly encourage them to begin immediate actions that will allow their children to attain gainful employment as adults. I would be dead honest, but I wouldn't be ugly or angry. After all they seemed to think that it was appropriate to share this information and by doing so they opened themselves up for an honest response.

This is how I said I would handle it, because I tend to be direct, but honestly the indirect approach the OP has taken seems to be working. Why report when they have willingly adopted indirect suggestions?

 

This is a huge leap, and certainly not "true". It would be investigated (maybe) and, more likely, the family would be require to educate the children in an acceptable, possibly mainstream, manner.

Depends on a lot, but the family I knew had 2 children- a little one under the age of ten and a teen. The children were removed from the home and put in ps in two different foster homes. There a number of judges and school boards in my area that are not home school friendly.

 

Right now there is a family in Davidson County who removed their children from school. The school board refused to release students to K12 and waited for the family to hit the 5 day truancy. Metro Nashville Public Schools sent the family "Notice of Truancy" letters stating that legal action would be taken against their family unless the kids were put back in public school (or well known private) with valid excuse notes. Fortunately, the family quickly signed up with HomeLife Academy on the 5th day.

 

HomeLife told the family that they would get the records. The husband met with Fred Carr (Chief Operating Officer of Nashville Metro schools) and Westmeade pricipal Stephen Breese. When her husband walked into the room, they had a metro police officer there as intimidation. He was told that his daughters would not be released to any home schooling program and that they would be charged with truancy. They laughed at Homelife and accused them of being a front for homeschoolers that do not educate their children.

 

MNPS told Homelife that they would not release students mid-year. HSLDA is now involved. The principal at Westmeade Elementary should recieve a letter from HSLDA stating the parents' rights and encouraging the school system to abide by the laws.

 

If Nashville Metro has this much of a problem with a family who wants to pull a child out to home school, imagine the reaction to a homeschool family whose children are over a year behind.

 

Food for thought-

Mandy