Another WWYD...call CPS or no? Update post 1

[MedicMom]

For starters I am a mandated reporter, but I didn't come across this information on the job. Secondly, I find physical punishment of children abhorrent and I think that sometimes clouds my reasonableness.

 

There is a local homeschool mom who lives a few houses from my in laws. She is also Facebook friends with my sister, and is very vocal on local homeschool groups. On cold days, she and her young children are often seen running up and down the street to keep warm. She is adamant about not turning the heat on in the house until the outside temperature is below 50 degrees. A few neighbors have voiced concerns, but the husband and wife are preppers, very paranoid and generally refuse to talk to Anyone they deem "secular." I believe they practice some unusual mixture of Judiasm/Christianity---she calls it Torah Christianity. She's also very vocal about teaching her children that the earth is flat and that we never landed on the moon. Whatever. Eccentric is fine. I consider it neglectful but not necessarily to the level of abusive.

 

Yesterday she answered a Facebook question of my sisters on child discipline with twisted bible verses on why it's important to beat children. She also stated that she forces her children to eat hot sauce and hot peppers as punishment, and when they refuse to do schoolwork she makes them sit at the table all day---once making her six year old sit there from 8 am to 3 am. (She does claim she allowed him to eat and use the restroom). A few people called her out on all this and basically she said they are raising their children without government involvement and CPS would be sorry if they showed up.

 

I really am questioning whether or not I need to hotline them at this point. I personally think this is beyond neglect and she is an abusive parent. CPS in the county she lives isn't going to jump to take kids away, but will likely force them into parenting classes and counseling.

 

What does the hive think???

 

(Ps this woman will not allow people, like fellow homeschool moms, into her home to help her, as they might teach her children mainstream science and history)

 

UPDATE: I was notified today that my complaint was "founded", which means CPS investigated and found substantial evidence of abuse or neglect. I do know the kids are staying with their (sane and very nice) grandparents, but I only know that through Facebook as mom is ranting against the government persecuting Torah-believing Christians who just want to live off the grid. I know CPS well in that county through my job, and they almost never remove kids, so whatever they found in that house had to be bad. (Also, the investigating CPS worker is a homeschool graduate herself, so I am highly doubting the persecution claims)

so I am going to believe calling was the right thing.

Edited October 13, 2016 by MedicMom

[Aura]

I don't really have advice, just more questions/musings. IMO, people who think like that won't change unless they WANT to. The more they feel like they have to fight, the more they will reinforce their beliefs in their own minds. CPS involvement could make things worse for the kids. And/or, it could show the kids that their parents are not normal and that they have options...which may make a difference as they get older.

 

I know. That's not advice. That's just thoughts. Good luck. 

[maize]

Wow, that's a tough one--I would be inclined to call so that CPS at least starts a record of concerns. But I am also concerned that CPS involvement could make things worse for the kids.

[Guest]

That's very tricky. Keeping the house cooler and making the children sit at the table for long periods of time isn't really abusive by any definition I can think of, and her Facebook posts aren't indicative of actual wrongdoing even as they're obviously very concerning, but the hot sauce thing has been ruled as abusive in some cases.

 

With that and the pattern of behavior you're seeing, plus her disinclination to hear more gentle reproof from other local moms, I'd probably go ahead and report it and let the state decide. I don't usually go that direction without clear signs of abuse or neglect but the pattern of words and behavior is concerning enough I'd let a professional look into it.

[BigMamaBird]

I have absolutely no problem with spanking, just so you know where my bias is.  What you have described sounds pretty harsh.  I could let the heating issue slide, but a little kid shouldn't be made to sit at a table over 12 hours.  Kids shouldn't be forced to eat hot peppers for any reason.  I would be tempted to call and let CPS decide.  

[Tap]

Report and give them screen prints of all the posts (remove all of the information that makes you identifiable).  CPS can make the determination if they need to get involved or not. 

[eternalsummer]

I'd call, and I am not a fan of CPS

[hjffkj]

Using hot sauce as punishment has been seen as child abuse in some court cases so I would report it and allow CPS to decide whether or not to investigate.

[Guest]

I have absolutely no problem with spanking, just so you know where my bias is. What you have described sounds pretty harsh. I could let the heating issue slide, but a little kid shouldn't be made to sit at a table over 12 hours. Kids shouldn't be forced to eat hot peppers for any reason. I would be tempted to call and let CPS decide.

That's where I'm coming down as well. Judicious physical correction in the scheme of parenting is something we are not opposed to at all, but this one has multiple other flags that would worry me if I was seeing it IRL too. I'm pretty sympathetic to every family deciding for themselves their family culture but there are lines one cannot legally cross, for the safety and well being of every member of the family. Whether they are crossing them isn't clear but it bears investigating.

[G5052]

For starters I am a mandated reporter, but I didn't come across this information on the job. Secondly, I find physical punishment of children abhorrent and I think that sometimes clouds my reasonableness.

 

I'm a mandated reporter too, and with the breadth of "experience" here, I'd call it in.

 

In my area, the CPS people are very reasonable, careful professionals. I wouldn't hesitate at all if I was privy to a situation like this.

 

I was an abused child, and often think what a difference it would have made if someone had somehow stepped in early on. I didn't get help until I was in college, and that was because I finally told a relative my senior year, and she encouraged me to take advantage of a campus counsellor. He was excellent.

 

This is not just a difference in parenting, IMHO.

 

Off my soapbox...

Edited August 31, 2016 by G5052

[zoobie]

Call.

[Heatherwith4]

I would call and let them sort it out.

[goldberry]

At first I was thinking no, because it seemed to me they were being very careful to skirt the edges of what could officially be called abuse.  But if the hot sauce thing has been ruled abusive then yes, call, just to start the process of getting CPS involved.

 

How cold can you let children get before it is considered abuse?  When you have heat but choose not to use it?  I can't imagine it is healthy for small children to be at 50 degrees for long periods of time.

 

ETA was there anything in her posts about physical punishment that would cross the line to CPS?

Edited August 31, 2016 by goldberry

[mommymonster]

I'm a mandatory reporter, and in my state, it doesn't matter if you learn something on the job or in "real" life. If you have a reasonable suspicion abuse is occurring, you are required by law to make the call. I would check your state mandatory reporting law. Failure to report is serious and can result in both losing a license and monetary damages. In my profession (not social worker), our licensing body's guidance is that since we aren't Services to Children and Family, we should call when there's a reasonable suspicion, and let the professionals decide. 

[Anne in CA]

I agree that CPS is unlikely to take the kids, but will make them take classes. Which she will not learn from. Make the call for your own conscience, but don't expect change. She is not someone who is likely to change because of a class. She lacks common sense and empathy. Lacking both is a bad combo. Never turns out well. She may find a new religion or way of thinking, but it wont be better. Just different. You need to do what you need to do for yourself. Leave her out of it when you decide what to do.

[IfIOnly]

Report.

 

Several red flags not the least of which is feeling a sense of confidence and arrogance in her harshness to publicize it. That's scary to me.

 

Making kids eat hot sauce as punishment is abuse.

[Ethel Mertz]

Another mandated reporter here. It's the hot sauce especially that stands out to me. Call.

[Annie G]

The hot sauce bothers me.  Making the kid sit at the table from  8 am until 3 am? Seems like an error and she mean 3 PM.  

 

The heat not being turned on until it's below 50 outside? That's pretty common where I live.  Most people around here don't turn the heat on until it gets below freezing. Maybe I misunderstand and you mean she won't turn on the heat until it's below 50 in the house.  Our house is generally kept at 60 in winter, and we're warm enough. But 50 in our house would be super cold. 

 

As a mandated reporter you probably know way better than I do what constitutes abuse.  Some things you listed sound abusive and others just sound weird.  

[Caroline]

As a mandated reporter who needs her job, go ahead and report it. It doesn't matter when you got the information, on the job or not. You have to report and, where I am, it has to be done witching 24 hours of learning the information.

[MedicMom]

I am pretty sure that this is the first time the Hive has been unanimous lol.

For clarification, someone on Facebook asked her if she REALLY meant 3 am. She said yes; he finally relented and did his school work at 2 am and she let him up from the table when it was done. I think it's just a bit of hot sauce, not ghost peppers or anything, but courts have considered that abuse in other places.

I'm not sure about the heat thing. I would think she meant 50 degrees inside, because this is upstate NY and 50 degrees outside isn't heating weather yet. If you're making your kids run up and down the street to get warm I don't think 50 degrees in the house would make sense.

 

I will likely call. My husband is the one who thinks I shouldn't, but he also thinks nothing is ever his business. My supervisor said that I don't technically have to call because I didn't witness it at work, but that I should.

[Guest]

Okay, the AM makes it that much worse. That's unacceptably long. We have had school days go from 8-3 with minimal breaks and it stinks, but that's ridiculously long.

 

Yeah, report.

[SKL]

The only thing that crosses the official abuse line IMO is the hot sauce.  At least I've seen cases of parents getting in official trouble for that.  (It's not something I grew up around at all, so I don't know if that's mainstream anywhere else.)

 

The other things are more of unfortunate parenting choices IMO.

 

If you are a mandated reporter, it might be hard to justify not reporting the hot sauce, though you might want to try to clarify the facts first.  Is it one drop, was it one time 3 years ago, or does she just threaten / blab about it or does she actually do it?

[mommytobees]

I'm a mandatory reporter and I believe that means you have to report ANYTHING even if it isn't in the course of your employment/licensing arrangement. 

 

I do not like spanking, but true palm-on-bum spanking is not physical abuse. (psychological yes)

 

I believe that the hot sauce/ hot peppers is abuse.

I believe forced wakefulness is abuse. (was that 3am or 3 pm?!?!?)

 

I do not like the lack of heat, but that isn't abuse.

 

Kris

[Annie G]

The 8-3 am thing is just STUPID.  That must have been a strong willed 6 year old to hold out that long.  I can't even imagine how she kept the tot awake. That was an idiotic thing for the mom to do...sounds like she threatened the kid would sit there until the work was done and then didn't know how to back down.  

 

It seems easier to call and let CPS sort it out. But I have a feeling nothing is going to be done. 

 

 

[mommytobees]

I am pretty sure that this is the first time the Hive has been unanimous lol.

For clarification, someone on Facebook asked her if she REALLY meant 3 am. She said yes; he finally relented and did his school work at 2 am and she let him up from the table when it was done.

 

I will likely call. My husband is the one who thinks I shouldn't, but he also thinks nothing is ever his business. My supervisor said that I don't technically have to call because I didn't witness it at work, but that I should.

 

Okay, 1: your husband needs a (figurative) smack upside the head. (That is also abuse!)

2: Call!! This isn't worth your job and/or future in that career.

 

3: forced wakefulness is torture. I don't care what the US government says about it re: prisoners, but I believe that it is torture. To do it to your child is abuse.

 

Kris

[G5052]

It seems easier to call and let CPS sort it out. But I have a feeling nothing is going to be done. 

 

Even if nothing is done, the kids are going to be aware that what they're going through is in question. Even that might give them a glimmer of hope.

[Annie G]

Even if nothing is done, the kids are going to be aware that what they're going through is in question. Even that might give them a glimmer of hope.

 

Good point!

[OneStepAtATime]

If she willingly shares these things, what is happening behind the scenes that she isn't sharing? I would report.

Edited September 1, 2016 by OneStepAtATime

[mamakelly]

8-3am? Am, really? Yah, I'd call. That's what she's bragging about in public, who knows what goes on in private.

[Anne in CA]

I am pretty sure that whatever is really going on is worse. The things she's not bragging about are probably the real problem.

[MedicMom]

If she willing shares these things, what is happening behind the scenes that she isn't sharing? I would report.

I think this is what I keep coming back too. I just have the gut feeling that there is something seriously wrong.

By the way, I've been investigated(and cleared) by CPS. I don't do this lightly.

[KungFuPanda]

Call or anonymously mail screenshots. This isn't even a gray area to me. These kids are being tortured. Excessively long time-outs, beatings, freezing them, educational neglect, burning with hot sauce. These kids are LITTLE. They're being raised by fringe wackadoos. This family needs to be on the grid. Is there educational oversight of homeschoolers in your state?

Edited September 1, 2016 by KungFuPanda

[Katy]

Mandated reporter means you don't have to question this, just call and let someone else determine.  If there's even a suspicion of abuse, you have an ethical responsibility to call. If she's publicly arguing that beating children (not spanking, but beating) is a good thing, what is she doing in private? She sounds like she's got some sort of mental illness with paranoia going on and the children are taking the brunt of it.  Someone with more qualifications and more access than you should make that determination.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Katy

[FaithManor]

I am pretty sure that whatever is really going on is worse. The things she's not bragging about are probably the real problem.

This right here. If she copts to this online and then makes a veiled threat against CPS as well, what she isn't admitting is a heck of a lot worse. Better let CPS go take a look.

[Janeway]

For starters I am a mandated reporter, but I didn't come across this information on the job. Secondly, I find physical punishment of children abhorrent and I think that sometimes clouds my reasonableness.

 

There is a local homeschool mom who lives a few houses from my in laws. She is also Facebook friends with my sister, and is very vocal on local homeschool groups. On cold days, she and her young children are often seen running up and down the street to keep warm. She is adamant about not turning the heat on in the house until the outside temperature is below 50 degrees. A few neighbors have voiced concerns, but the husband and wife are preppers, very paranoid and generally refuse to talk to Anyone they deem "secular." I believe they practice some unusual mixture of Judiasm/Christianity---she calls it Torah Christianity. She's also very vocal about teaching her children that the earth is flat and that we never landed on the moon. Whatever. Eccentric is fine. I consider it neglectful but not necessarily to the level of abusive.

 

Yesterday she answered a Facebook question of my sisters on child discipline with twisted bible verses on why it's important to beat children. She also stated that she forces her children to eat hot sauce and hot peppers as punishment, and when they refuse to do schoolwork she makes them sit at the table all day---once making her six year old sit there from 8 am to 3 am. (She does claim she allowed him to eat and use the restroom). A few people called her out on all this and basically she said they are raising their children without government involvement and CPS would be sorry if they showed up.

 

I really am questioning whether or not I need to hotline them at this point. I personally think this is beyond neglect and she is an abusive parent. CPS in the county she lives isn't going to jump to take kids away, but will likely force them into parenting classes and counseling.

 

What does the hive think???

 

(Ps this woman will not allow people, like fellow homeschool moms, into her home to help her, as they might teach her children mainstream science and history)

First, get screen shots. Then report it and send in the screen shots.

[MedicMom]

Mandated reporter means you don't have to question this, just call and let someone else determine. If there's even a suspicion of abuse, you have an ethical responsibility to call. If she's publicly arguing that beating children (not spanking, but beating) is a good thing, what is she doing in private? She sounds like she's got some sort of mental illness with paranoia going on and the children are taking the brunt of it. Someone with more qualifications and more access than you should make that determination.

In NYS mandated reporters are only required to report abuse suspected while in their professional role. Regardless the right thing to do I believe is to call. I don't know her personally, but I find the things she puts on Facebook disturbing. I do have screenshots.

 

I know she has severe learning disabilities, because she's posted on homeschool FB sites locally how horrible public school was due to that. I don't know about mental illness, but I see enough red flags here. New York is a highly regulated homeschool state, but no one checks to make sure you're actually doing what your quarterly reports say you are, and her kids aren't old enough yet for the mandatory standardized testing.

[ScoutTN]

Yes, I would report.

[Alicia64]

It's not one, not two, but several red flags. I'd call it in. Definitely.

 

Alley

[Farrar]

I'm glad the Hive is for reporting. And I'm glad you're going to call, Medic Mom.

 

Stories like this in the homeschooling world make me so sad. Obviously she could do this stuff if her kids were in school too, but sometimes homeschooled kids never see a mandated reporter or see so dramatically fewer of them, which means fewer chances to notice that anything - like hot saucing or forced wakefulness - is amiss. It may be that nothing happens in the end, but they're lucky someone is reporting it.

[Laurie4b]

While any single one thing might be borderline if in the context of an otherwise loving family, it's the cluster of things that is so concerning. The context does not seem loving but highly controlling and punitive. Given the context, that pushes borderline things into the likely-to-be-abuse category. The household sounds emotionally abusive and the kids have no place of escape. 

 

 

 

 

[mommytobees]

In NYS mandated reporters are only required to report abuse suspected while in their professional role. Regardless the right thing to do I believe is to call.

 

Well that annoys me.

 

And, please don't think that was me criticizing you. 

 

Kris

[Little Nyssa]

What I'm worried about is not only the abusive behavior, but saying that "CPS will be sorry if they show up@- what does that mean? Do the parents have guns? Are they liable to become violent on a large scale?

[happypamama]

I think any one of those things is borderline and all together, it's not a good environment. I would classify it as abusive, but whether or not I would call would depend on what CPS was known to be like in my area. Are they generally reasonable and would expect parenting classes or something of the sort, or do they tend to take more drastic measures? I'm not sure those things are quite in the same realm as children living in true poverty and squalor, drugs or mom's string of boyfriends in the home, serious beatings that leave major physical damage, that sort of thing. I definitely do not think it is a safe or good environment, and I think the mom needs to get a clue about what's developmentally appropriate, but if CPS tends to be overactive around there, is it worse than being removed? I really don't know. Would the parents retaliate at the kids if CPS got involved? I'm sorry you're having to make this decision at all; my heart goes out to the children, and to the mom, because she might be a very loving mother, trying to do her best to raise responsible, hard-working children, but she might be rather misguided.

[eternalsummer]

I am just not sure how you can be misguided into making a 6 year old sit in a chair for 20 hours, or forcing kids to eat hot sauce, etc.  I don't think people who do those things are just normal, loving parents who happen to be misguided.  I think there is something wrong beyond just having gotten bad advice.

[Tanaqui]

Another thought, if she's "raising these children without government interference", do they have birth certificates and SSNs? Have they ever visited a doctor or dentist?

 

I'd print out everything you've seen on facebook and send it all in. As others have said, whatever she admits to publicly indicates more going on that she doesn't admit to. Nobody, but nobody, really posts their entire life on the internet.

[Tanaqui]

because she might be a very loving mother, trying to do her best to raise responsible, hard-working children, but she might be rather misguided.

 

Most abusive parents would claim they love their children, odds are that many of them really do. Most of them will say they're trying to raise responsible, hard-working children. Their intentions don't make it not abuse.

 

[justasque]

Not only is it abuse, it is educationally unsound.  Can you imagine if the public school kept your kid at their desk until 3am over work not finished?  (And in my experience, at that age, work standoffs are often due to asking a child to do something they don't yet have the skills for.)  Can you imagine a school making a child eat hot peppers?  This is not educational best practice.  By a long shot.  I feel for those kids.  Mama may mean well, but she is getting some very bad ideas from somewhere.  I wonder if it would also be fruitful to contact her pastor/rabbi?  Perhaps they could give some spiritual guidance.

[December]

I am pretty sure that this is the first time the Hive has been unanimous lol.

For clarification, someone on Facebook asked her if she REALLY meant 3 am. She said yes; he finally relented and did his school work at 2 am and she let him up from the table when it was done.

 

Are you sure she understands what am and pm mean?  If she thinks the world is flat, maybe she also missed how to tell time... 

[goldberry]

For clarification, someone on Facebook asked her if she REALLY meant 3 am. She said yes; he finally relented and did his school work at 2 am and she let him up from the table when it was done. .

 

That's horrific.  It sounds like the Pearl thing, where you are supposed to not stop until they give in, no matter what.  That's makes it no question that yes, you should report it.

[Ausmumof3]

The biggest red flag is the midnight school thing. I'd clarify that as if she has a learning difficulty she might now have understood. the fact that she says cps better watch out if they come makes me think she's aware that that is a possibility which means that she knows that her techniques could be abusive.

 

Now she could also be exaggerating and saying how harsh she is on her kids when she isn't really that bad. Some parents do seem to take a kind of weird pride in how strict they are being. but sometimes it's just not worth taking the risk ...

 

Honestly in cases like this best outcome is that mum gets some kind of wake up call or some better mentors not a full scale cps

Intervention but if you aren't close enough to

See it happen maybe you need to report.