Another WWYD...call CPS or no? Update post 1

[happypamama]

I am just not sure how you can be misguided into making a 6 year old sit in a chair for 20 hours, or forcing kids to eat hot sauce, etc. I don't think people who do those things are just normal, loving parents who happen to be misguided. I think there is something wrong beyond just having gotten bad advice.

I do think that as well, and I certainly don't think those things are okay, not do I raise my children that way, but I guess I wonder if the alternative is worse? If CPS will help her get her head on straight, then great -- if she won't listen to advice from others at all, then make the call. But I do see why it could be a grey area, and I think it really depends on what course of action CPS will take. the OP might have a better idea of what CPS usually does in her area.

[SKL]

While I do think a call is in order (as I said before), I would be wary of relying on some of the logic I see here.  First of all, she used the word "beat" in a facebook post that talks about what she says the Bible says about discipline.  There's nothing reportable in that.  People say all kinds of things.  Where I come from, "beat" and "spank" mean the same thing, and people often use the word "beat" in jest when they aren't even remotely considering hitting their kid.  Saying the Bible says xyz (or the Quran or any other book) doesn't mean the person follows that advice literally.  In fact I've heard clerical people argue that "spare the rod" has nothing to do with corporal punishment.

 

The idea that something worse might or must be happening is IMO not something you can/should call CPS about (without evidence).

 

I do think there is enough evidence to warrant a call in this case, if I understand the OP correctly.

[MotherGoose]

I just wanted to say that it's people like this who give homeschoolers a bad name.

[Soror]

This is not borderline to me, I can't even understand that thinking, it is physical and emotional abuse along with neglect. I'd call and send screen shots. You would think paranoid people wouldn't post such things on FB. Those poor children.

[Haiku]

If you feel like you should call, then call. It doesn't sound to me like CPS will get involved, but you will feel like you followed your conscience.

 

FWIW, I know multiple people who don't turn on their heat until it gets very cold. They bundle up, drink warm drinks, and are physically active to stay warm. I don't find that abusive at all.

 

The hot sauce and and the extreme times of sitting, well, I wouldn't do that but I don't think CPS would call it abuse, either. But if you call, maybe they can make sure there's nothing even more extreme going on that the mom doesn't admit to publicly.

[sewingmama]

Not turning on the heat is not considered abusive unless she also wasn't dressing them for the weather. There are plenty of poor people who can't afford heat but you can't take children away for being poor unless they are also neglected.

 

Abusive could be....making them run up and down the street in the cold to warm up. Thats insane thinking...exercise in the house if you must. However, as long as she isn't overdoing the running such as running them to exhaustion then that really isn't abusive either. It keeps bringing to mind the case of the parent who made her daighter run around in the cold outside until she collapsed and died...but I guess if it's not excessive its fine.

 

The hot sauce is abusive in my view...its not a reasonable punishment and people have been arrested for that before.

 

I guess there isn't really much here that is terribly abusive enough to call CP UNLESS the excercise in the cold is excessive or there are other signs of neglect, which if she still feeds the child and lets them go to the bathroom while being punished is probably not the case.

 

It is definitely not ideal and I feel for the kids but unless the kids physical care or well-being is compromised CP probably won't do anything.

[Bluegoat]

I'm not especially anti-spanking, but I think I would report this, unless I had good reason to think the kids would end up in a worse situation.  Her attitude sems to be one that could lead to serious abuse, the peppers thing is abuse IMO, and I also feel that it's likely she is only allowing people to see what she considers less extreme stuff.

 

I would worry that if she feels a threat she could go (further) over the edge.

 

 

[Mimm]

Are you sure she understands what am and pm mean?  If she thinks the world is flat, maybe she also missed how to tell time... 

 

I'm really trying to wrap my brain around someone in this day and age truly thinking the world is flat and it's just not computing. Is this actually a thing? How? She can't really be teaching her kids this....

[MedicMom]

I'm really trying to wrap my brain around someone in this day and age truly thinking the world is flat and it's just not computing. Is this actually a thing? How? She can't really be teaching her kids this....

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/

 

Oh it's very real and, yes, she is teaching her kids this.

[pinkmint]

I'm wondering some of the same things as some others. Did she actually use the word "beat" in regards to bible verses about disciplining her kids? And did she actually say she believes the earth is flat or is this implied and exaggeration based on a dislike for Christian "fundie" types?

 

Not asking in an accusing way. I really want to know. If she really did say this stuff she sounds quite troubled.

[Mimm]

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/

 

Oh it's very real and, yes, she is teaching her kids this.

 

See, I always thought that site was a joke. Reading the FAQ doesn't make it seem like less of a joke.

 

 

Is There An Edge To The Earth?The Flat Earth Society, along with previous notable flatists such as Samuel Shenton and S. Rowbotham, believe there is no end to the Earth and that it continues indefinitely.

 

I mean, really? :p

 

Sorry to get side tracked, I'm very distracted by it. Yes, I think there's more than enough to report this woman.

[Bluegoat]

I also was fairly sure The Flat Earth Society was essentially a joke organization.

[Xahm]

It's real. A significant portion of those who claim it are trolls, but my little brother (in his silly highschool days) was one of the more skilled trolls and got to know/anger a number of true believers.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

(Edited to remove a personal anecdote about a similar case that turned out to be even worse than it appeared...but I don't want local persons identifying me through that story so I'm taking it down now that the OP has seen it.)

Edited September 1, 2016 by Tibbie Dunbar

[MedicMom]

She spends a lot of time trying to convert the local homeschool community to her flat earth views and pulling up obscure Hebrew words that she claims are proof. She's pretty serious about that.

I honestly didn't look at the website; she's linked to it on her Facebook and even if it's satire, she may not realize it or understand satire.

 

I called this morning. I work fairly closely through my job with CPS in the county she lives in, and they are not anti-homeschooling at all and pretty reasonable. I hope they can help the family. I usually would be open to trying to work with her through a relationship, but this mom doesn't listen at all.

[Spryte]

I'm glad you called. Now hoping that she and the kids get some help.

[Seasider]

I also was fairly sure The Flat Earth Society was essentially a joke organization.

But then, the world is full of people who don't get a joke, no?

[Ottakee]

Glad you made the call.............and this is speaking as someone who has their 2nd CPS investigation open at the moment........and CPS sitting at the table talking to my kids right now. :-(

[magnificent_baby]

So glad you called and I hope everyone else that saw that on FB did the same. 3 am?? What a tool. Those poor kids. 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I'm wondering some of the same things as some others. Did she actually use the word "beat" in regards to bible verses about disciplining her kids? And did she actually say she believes the earth is flat or is this implied and exaggeration based on a dislike for Christian "fundie" types?

 

Not asking in an accusing way. I really want to know. If she really did say this stuff she sounds quite troubled.

The whole Torah Christian/anti-government thing is an offshoot of the sovereign citizen movement. And several of those groups do vehemently argue the earth is flat. Google Yahweh's Flat Earth.

[OneStepAtATime]

Glad you made the call.............and this is speaking as someone who has their 2nd CPS investigation open at the moment........and CPS sitting at the table talking to my kids right now. :-(

Hugs and good luck

[Reefgazer]

MYOB is my standard policy, unless the behavior is severe enough to cause physical marks/scars.  Hot sauce and running in 50 degree weather don't come close to that criteria, IMO so I would not say anything, mandated reporter or not.

[SarahW]

About the heat issue.

 

If the parent is able to provide heat, and deliberately deprives a child of it, that could be legal abuse, depending on how cold it gets (and, ethically speaking, is abuse). And if a child become ill, and the illness become very severe because of the deliberate and continuous withholding of heat, then that is premeditated neglect.

 

I know this because there was once a situation where a school maintenance worker was a misogynist, and kept the girls dorm unreasonably cold. This caused us students to discuss the fact that there is a minimum temperature that the school legally needed to provide, and the students' right to a healthy living environment. The argument got ugly before it was solved so, yeah, there was a time in my life I discussed the legal intricacies of heat. Weird, I know.

 

Heat isn't the first thing CPS or lawyers would zero in on, no, but it is a thing.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

MYOB is my standard policy, unless the behavior is severe enough to cause physical marks/scars. Hot sauce and running in 50 degree weather don't come close to that criteria, IMO so I would not say anything, mandated reporter or not.

Hot saucing children as punishment is illegal in some states. It is assault.

[Haiku]

If the parent is able to provide heat, and deliberately deprives a child of it, that could be legal abuse, depending on how cold it gets (and, ethically speaking, is abuse). And if a child become ill, and the illness become very severe because of the deliberate and continuous withholding of heat, then that is premeditated neglect.

 

People camp, play sports, walk around, ride bicycles, and do numerous other things in 50-degree temperatures. If you dress for the weather, it's not really all that cold. Not long ago, people lived without heat in their homes. They may have heated one room with a coal or wood fire, but the rest of the house was cold.

 

My great-grandmother told me about waking up with snow on her bed and breaking the ice in the washbasin so she could wash her face before going to school.

 

Having a chilly house really isn't abuse.

[justasque]

MYOB is my standard policy, unless the behavior is severe enough to cause physical marks/scars.  Hot sauce and running in 50 degree weather don't come close to that criteria, IMO so I would not say anything, mandated reporter or not.

 

The OP is a mandatory reporter.  It is not up to her to decide if the red flags rise to the level of abuse - that's the job of CPS.  Her job it to report red flags.  

[MedicMom]

The whole Torah Christian/anti-government thing is an offshoot of the sovereign citizen movement. And several of those groups do vehemently argue the earth is flat. Google Yahweh's Flat Earth.

Just briefly I looked over this and a lot of things she says and does make a lot more sense in this context.

 

I totally feel a rabbit hole coming that I don't have time for, because now I'm curious.

 

For the record my husband keeps the heat in our house low. I turn it up when he's gone but I wear sweaters when it's 80 degrees outside. My kids are fine. In fact the house I lived in as a teenager had no heat upstairs, and this was upstate NY where it gets cold. It was fine, though eventually may parents ran heat up there. It was mostly the running outside to keep warm that felt odd to me.

Edited September 1, 2016 by MedicMom

[ktgrok]

I am glad you called. I'm betting these kids don't get medical care either, and if nothing else, CPS will look into that and address any issues. Hugs. 

[Seasider]

The whole Torah Christian/anti-government thing is an offshoot of the sovereign citizen movement. And several of those groups do vehemently argue the earth is flat. Google Yahweh's Flat Earth.

Just when I think I've heard it all...

[zoobie]

People camp, play sports, walk around, ride bicycles, and do numerous other things in 50-degree temperatures. If you dress for the weather, it's not really all that cold. Not long ago, people lived without heat in their homes. They may have heated one room with a coal or wood fire, but the rest of the house was cold.

 

My great-grandmother told me about waking up with snow on her bed and breaking the ice in the washbasin so she could wash her face before going to school.

 

Having a chilly house really isn't abuse.

If you deliberately subject a child to cold temperatures as punishment (which SarahW described in her post), it can be abuse. Not the same thing as riding bikes or camping. Playing with your child using the garden hose on a warm summer day? Not abuse. Hosing your child down to get him cold, wet, and humiliated as punishment? Probably abuse.

[Haiku]

If you deliberately subject a child to cold temperatures as punishment (which SarahW described in her post), it can be abuse. 

 

Yet that is not what the OP described. She said the woman in question didn't turn her heat on until it gets to 50 degrees outside. 

 

She's not punishing her children with cold. She's just not turning the heat on until she thinks she has to. That is not abuse.

 

I said, "Having a chilly house really isn't abuse." I didn't say, "Keeping your house at freezing temperatures to punish the snotties isn't abuse." I didn't say, "Dousing your kids with a hose and shutting them in the walk-in freezer isn't abuse." I didn't say, "Forcing your children to sleep outside in the snow isn't abuse." I said having a chilly house isn't abuse. Can people really not draw a distinction?

 

If the woman's house is like most people's houses and comes equipped with insulation, a temperature of 50 degrees outside will yield in internal temperature of 56 or 58 degrees. Chilly, but not unhealthful or abusive. I often keep my house at 62 or 63 in the winter. My oldest dd used to walk around in shorts and a tank top and complain she was cold. I, in my jeans, long-sleeved shirt, and sweater, did not feel abusive of my cold child.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Haiku

[HS Mom in NC]

My question to anyone considering reporting someone to CPS is, "Which law was broken by the person you're considering reporting?" If you can point to a law (or type of law) that was broken, then yes, you should report it whether you're a mandatory reporter or not.  I have no problem with the occasional spanking that is not hard enough to leave a bruise, but the hot sauce/hot pepper thing is abuse. Anytime I see that I think "cult."

I don't know if the courts would rule on something like forcing a kid to sit at a table all day as abuse (it's possible it was typo and she meant 8 am to 3pm which would be a typical institutional school day) because many a child in an institutional school  sits at a desk most of the day with breaks for a meal and the bathroom. Sometimes, crazy institutional teachers punish uncooperative kids with desk time during recess.  They're not being investigated for abuse. Many schools have removed more than one recess from their schedules.
 

The heat thing is laughable.  Sorry, but between being familiar with the history of humanity (some of my ancestors are from Norway) and being a camper/hiker I wouldn't even bat an eye at people choosing to keep the heat off until below 50 degrees. Most campers don't have heat in their tents at those temperatures and CPS isn't up at the campgrounds removing kids from their families' tents. It's a complete non-issue.  Not my personal  choice when I'm at home, but certainly not abuse of neglect. That's why articulating which laws are being broken is important; it helps you filter out your own strong personal parenting/lifestyle  convictions from criminal behavior.

[ktgrok]

I agree a lot of it is borderline, but all together (plus the hot sauce) it adds up to something not right. And if that is the stuff she's posting publicly...well I bet there is worse going on she isn't posting about. 

[magnificent_baby]

My question to anyone considering reporting someone to CPS is, "Which law was broken by the person you're considering reporting?" If you can point to a law (or type of law) that was broken, then yes, you should report it whether you're a mandatory reporter or not.  I have no problem with the occasional spanking that is not hard enough to leave a bruise, but the hot sauce/hot pepper thing is abuse. Anytime I see that I think "cult."

 

I don't know if the courts would rule on something like forcing a kid to sit at a table all day as abuse (it's possible it was typo and she meant 8 am to 3pm which would be a typical institutional school day) because many a child in an institutional school  sits at a desk most of the day with breaks for a meal and the bathroom. Sometimes, crazy institutional teachers punish uncooperative kids with desk time during recess.  They're not being investigated for abuse. Many schools have removed more than one recess from their schedules.

 

The heat thing is laughable.  Sorry, but between being familiar with the history of humanity (some of my ancestors are from Norway) and being a camper/hiker I wouldn't even bat an eye at people choosing to keep the heat off until below 50 degrees. Most campers don't have heat in their tents at those temperatures and CPS isn't up at the campgrounds removing kids from their families' tents. It's a complete non-issue.  Not my personal  choice when I'm at home, but certainly not abuse of neglect. That's why articulating which laws are being broken is important; it helps you filter out your own strong personal parenting/lifestyle  convictions from criminal behavior.

 

 

I think the OP stated that she did clarify on FB it was until 3 am. If that's the case, I would think that may be considered abuse. There are detrimental effects to sleep deprivation and I would think especially so for children. Forcing them to sit there for nearly 24 hours? Even with breaks, that is torture. 

 

Breaks my heart to think of a child being forced to sit at a table for 19 hours. Not to mention to long term psychological effects that would have. If what she is admitting to is true, she's a jerk for this form of punishment alone. 

[FaithManor]

In Michigan borh the hot saucing and the public claim of beating would be actionable. Legal spanking is defined bery specifically so facebook posts advocating beating would be worthy of incestigation.

 

Given that low income folks often keep their thermostats between 50-60 due to hwating costs, this would not be a cause for concern. The homeschool statute does state that certain core subjects must be taught annually and science is one so CPS if in the home for other reasons would be within its rights to ask to see science curriculum or science reading books. Inability to produce such things would be a red flag with some case workers.

 

Threatening a government official on a public forum "Cps will be sorry" or however she worded it would also be a cause for concern.

 

While there is no statute on the sleep thing exactly there are general guidelines to caseworkers and family court officials for what constitutes meglect. As a single incident, not likely to cause a second look but taken in context with the actionable items might cause the parents to be viewed very dimly and end in some months of county/state oversight.

 

If she is a sovereign citizen type, I would expect this to end with a night or more in jail because the few that have had run ins with law enforcement and cps in this area are prone to assaulting officers and case workers. It is a very militant cult.

[FaithManor]

For clarification, hot saucing is misdemeanor child abuse.

 

Leaving a welt, red spot that lasts more than an hour or two, leaving a bruise on the buttocks is potentially a felony and while a light smack on the hand or mouth would not likely result in charges, hitting any other part of the body with much force at all would be actionable. But all of this varies from state to state.

[enchantedhome]

I'm glad you called. Everything you posted gave me goosebumps and made me feel a bit sick. Something bad is going on in that house, and I'm hoping that *something* can be done to help those kids. I'm always so shocked, and therefore upset all over again, when I hear how some people treat children. I can't believe this stuff (and so much worse) goes on. :(

[Ravin]

For starters I am a mandated reporter, but I didn't come across this information on the job. Secondly, I find physical punishment of children abhorrent and I think that sometimes clouds my reasonableness.

 

There is a local homeschool mom who lives a few houses from my in laws. She is also Facebook friends with my sister, and is very vocal on local homeschool groups. On cold days, she and her young children are often seen running up and down the street to keep warm. She is adamant about not turning the heat on in the house until the outside temperature is below 50 degrees. A few neighbors have voiced concerns, but the husband and wife are preppers, very paranoid and generally refuse to talk to Anyone they deem "secular." I believe they practice some unusual mixture of Judiasm/Christianity---she calls it Torah Christianity. She's also very vocal about teaching her children that the earth is flat and that we never landed on the moon. Whatever. Eccentric is fine. I consider it neglectful but not necessarily to the level of abusive.

 

Yesterday she answered a Facebook question of my sisters on child discipline with twisted bible verses on why it's important to beat children. She also stated that she forces her children to eat hot sauce and hot peppers as punishment, and when they refuse to do schoolwork she makes them sit at the table all day---once making her six year old sit there from 8 am to 3 am. (She does claim she allowed him to eat and use the restroom). A few people called her out on all this and basically she said they are raising their children without government involvement and CPS would be sorry if they showed up.

 

I really am questioning whether or not I need to hotline them at this point. I personally think this is beyond neglect and she is an abusive parent. CPS in the county she lives isn't going to jump to take kids away, but will likely force them into parenting classes and counseling.

 

What does the hive think???

 

(Ps this woman will not allow people, like fellow homeschool moms, into her home to help her, as they might teach her children mainstream science and history)

 

Some mandated reporter statutes require reporting whether you encounter it on the job or not. 

 

I would double check this. If you are obligated to report, this would do it. (the hot peppers stuff in particular). Also, take some screen shots of the FB stuff so you have documentation of it to back up your call.

[DragonFaerie]

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/

 

Oh it's very real and, yes, she is teaching her kids this.

 

Thanks a lot.  I'm now dumber for the loss of brain cells that this site sucked away.   :willy_nilly:

[myfunnybunch]

MYOB is my standard policy, unless the behavior is severe enough to cause physical marks/scars. Hot sauce and running in 50 degree weather don't come close to that criteria, IMO so I would not say anything, mandated reporter or not.

The thing is, if you're a mandated reporter, reporting is mandatory.

 

Legally mandated reporters do not have the luxury of a personal myob policy.

[goldberry]

MYOB is my standard policy, unless the behavior is severe enough to cause physical marks/scars.  Hot sauce and running in 50 degree weather don't come close to that criteria, IMO so I would not say anything, mandated reporter or not.

 

 

 

It has already been mentioned that many states do consider hotsaucing to be abusive, whether or not it causes physical marks or scars.  Whatever your personal opinion is, that doesn't change the law.

 

(My quotes got weird, I don't know why Ravin there but I can't delete it, just ignore!)

Edited September 1, 2016 by goldberry

[FaithManor]

Thanks a lot.  I'm now dumber for the loss of brain cells that this site sucked away.   :willy_nilly:

I know! I know! Sometimes I am afraid to read this stuff for fear that like aliens in a Sigourney Weaver movie, the stupid will reach out with its tentacles, rip out my brains,  and kill me.  :svengo:

[kitten18]

Yet that is not what the OP described. She said the woman in question didn't turn her heat on until it gets to 50 degrees outside.

 

She's not punishing her children with cold. She's just not turning the heat on until she thinks she has to. That is not abuse.

 

I said, "Having a chilly house really isn't abuse." I didn't say, "Keeping your house at freezing temperatures to punish the snotties isn't abuse." I didn't say, "Dousing your kids with a hose and shutting them in the walk-in freezer isn't abuse." I didn't say, "Forcing your children to sleep outside in the snow isn't abuse." I said having a chilly house isn't abuse. Can people really not draw a distinction?

 

If the woman's house is like most people's houses and comes equipped with insulation, a temperature of 50 degrees outside will yield in internal temperature of 56 or 58 degrees. Chilly, but not unhealthful or abusive. I often keep my house at 62 or 63 in the winter. My oldest dd used to walk around in shorts and a tank top and complain she was cold. I, in my jeans, long-sleeved shirt, and sweater, did not feel abusive of my cold child.

I think the OP clarified later that it was 50 degrees INside.

 

 

 

We keep our house very cool in the winter, 58 at night, and I turn it up to 62 in the morning. We like it like that but I think 50 degrees inside would be really uncomfortable.

[Haiku]

 I think 50 degrees inside would be really uncomfortable.

 

So do I, but I wasn't raised that way, so maybe I would think differently if I was. My dad kept the house at 78 when I was a kid, and I was always too warm. Now he keeps his house at 83, and I have to change into shorts in the middle of winter when I visit him.

 

I don't think everything sounds hunky-dory with this family, but 50 degrees in the house wouldn't be the thing that made me run to CPS calling "abuse!"

[FaithManor]

So do I, but I wasn't raised that way, so maybe I would think differently if I was. My dad kept the house at 78 when I was a kid, and I was always too warm. Now he keeps his house at 83, and I have to change into shorts in the middle of winter when I visit him.

 

I don't think everything sounds hunky-dory with this family, but 50 degrees in the house wouldn't be the thing that made me run to CPS calling "abuse!"

Agreed. Absolutely the temperature of the house is not low enough to be a child neglect issue. Now if it is 50 inside and the children are naked, then that would be a CPS issue. But needing to put on a sweater and wear socks and slippers just isn't.

[kitten18]

So do I, but I wasn't raised that way, so maybe I would think differently if I was. My dad kept the house at 78 when I was a kid, and I was always too warm. Now he keeps his house at 83, and I have to change into shorts in the middle of winter when I visit him.

 

I don't think everything sounds hunky-dory with this family, but 50 degrees in the house wouldn't be the thing that made me run to CPS calling "abuse!"

I agree.

 

And that totally reminds of my parents, when we would visit them my dh would wear the bare minimum of clothes and he would open a window in the bedroom because it was way too hot to sleep.

They did keep it comfortably cool in the summer.

Edited September 1, 2016 by kitten18

[SKL]

Yeah, I am having a hard time picturing the 50 degree outside "abuse" argument.  I think it's always a great idea to go outside and get some fresh air, exercise, and sunshine.  50 degrees isn't freezing cold, it's normal play outside weather IMO.  The comment that they should have exercised indoors instead felt a bit odd to me.

 

IMO any time an iffy family is outside instead of inside, that's great.  It means the kids aren't being hidden away to hide abuse, caged, whatever.  I understand this is just one of many odd things the family does, but I almost get the feeling people are looking for something to complain about.

 

Should a parent be afraid to have the kids outside exercising in cool weather because of what the neighbors would think?

[SKL]

When I was a young teen, we moved into a big old house with an awful old furnace.  The energy costs were crazy in those days.  My folks bought a woodburner and it was my job to keep the fire going.  (This was all winter in the snow belt.)  When the fire was burning, it was cold.  When the fire went out, it was REALLY cold.  :P  My youngest sister was a baby then.  I can't imagine anyone thinking any of that was abuse.  That was what blankets etc. were invented for.  Times sure have changed.

 

We all used to have paper routes, which required an hour or two of walking in the snow every day.  We also walked about a mile to school and back.  Still not a big deal.  Even when it went below zero.  I'm just not seeing it at 50 degrees.

[HS Mom in NC]

 We like it like that but I think 50 degrees inside would be really uncomfortable.

 

It depends on what you're wearing- a wool sweater would be enough to keep most people comfortable at that temperature. If not, add in another layer or switch to a heavier coat and you'll be fine. Inside my tent it's been well below 50 degrees.  We were dressed and bedded appropriately so that everyone was perfectly comfortable the whole time.  We've even played in snow outside all day when it was well under 50 degrees.  No problem.  They make clothing for that. Americans should get out of doors and into nature more so the idea of 50 degrees doesn't upset them.

 

If the kids were not appropriately dressed while they were outside, then of course, that's neglectful and abusive. Just like if the 3am was accurate and not a typo, then that's abusive, but I've seen a few typos on the internet so I think it's worth clarifying instead of taking as a given.

 

I'm betting the level of academics in that household is shockingly low, but to get CPS in the door the hot sauce/peppers are probably the best bet.

[MotherGoose]

People camp, play sports, walk around, ride bicycles, and do numerous other things in 50-degree temperatures. If you dress for the weather, it's not really all that cold. Not long ago, people lived without heat in their homes. They may have heated one room with a coal or wood fire, but the rest of the house was cold.

 

My great-grandmother told me about waking up with snow on her bed and breaking the ice in the washbasin so she could wash her face before going to school.

 

Having a chilly house really isn't abuse.

I agree. My grandmother told the same stories, and about ice forming in the gravy before they could eat it. Everyone was suffering in the same way. Now I think this mother is over the line in other ways, but if it was just the heat issue, I wouldn't report. I do think that we, as a society, have an exaggerated view of what comfort is necessary. I grew up in a house with no central heat or air, in the southern us. If it was 100 outside, it was pretty hot inside too. We all sat around fans and drank water and didn't do much more than necessary, unless it was tomato canning or corn freezing time. In the winter I slept under piles of blankets. I was not in any way abused. But this lady has issues. Serious issues. And my mom didn't brag about the temp of our house to anyone either!