Why is this socially required? It's misogyny, isn't it?

[City Mouse]

I’ve never felt any societal pressure to hide my gray, however, I’m 53 and didn’t start getting noticeable gray until my early 40’s. The only comment I’ve ever gotten was from a 5th grader who had purple streaks in her own hair. She told my she liked my shiny streaks. I guess she thought I did it on purpose.

My DH started going gray in his mid 20’s. He has never done anything to hide that, but he is often mistaken for being much older than he really is. When we first moved your current small town, he was already almost all white but only 45. He got invited to eat lunch at the Senior’s Center. He had to ask how old he needed to be and then had to tell the ladies that he would have to wait 15 yrs. 

[Myra]

4 hours ago, MEmama said:

Have you seen Overtone conditioner? https://overtone.co/  It's just conditioner--no chemicals, totally not permanent, and leaves hair super soft and healthy. It comes in all kinds of colours from natural shades to fun ones so you can play without the commitment of actual dye! 
 

I use both a dark brown to match my natural colour (it colours over most of my greys but not all) and purple where my hair is wavy 🙂 

How long does the color last?  

I'd like to do just the ends (2 inches or so) of my shoulder length hair - would this product work?

[Terabith]

To be clear, I am totally in favor of people who want to dye their hair doing so!  If dye makes you feel better about yourself, absolutely go for it!  I loved having my hair purple,  but I probably won’t again because of time/ expense/ roots. 
 

It is more that I have talked to a lot of women who don’t like dyeing their hair but feel it’s socially required.  I’m sure that is largely regional or cultural though.  I’m not particularly worried about it in preschool, because people love grandma teaching.  But if I were looking for a new job, it is something I might consider. 

[Terabith]

2 minutes ago, Myra said:

How long does the color last?  

I'd like to do just the ends (2 inches or so) of my shoulder length hair - would this product work?

My oldest used Overtone and liked it.  It works better for people who have lighter hair or bleach it, also they have a line for people with dark hair that gives subdued results.  It looked fantastic and I think it would be great for just the ends!

[vonfirmath]

Honestly, if someone does not like to dye their hair, they need to just stop.

Their feels about what is socially required may not be accurate. And they need to be comfortable in their own skin enough to not care what other people think about things that are meaningless.

 

[busymama7]

I hate having to dye my hair but I tried to transition to gray and I didn't like it on me.  I started graying in my 20's and am now at 46 completely gray.  I have done it myself but prefer to go get it done. I go to someone in their home which makes it super simple and quick for me.  I can text for an appointment and it's around the corner etc. I go every 5 weeks and I use a spray in between once my roots start showing in my part.   My gray/silver is actually very pretty but my natural color is medium brown and I just didn't like it 😕 I don't for it for anyone else though.  Just what I prefer.  I am pretty low maintenance otherwise. 

[rebcoola]

Dying hair is definitely the norm here. My friend who has been graying since her 20's dyes her hair weekly she is fairly average to low maintenance on the makeup/beauty scale.  I can think of one lady I know under 60 who is grey.

 

I dye my hair but not because i'm grey just for fun.   I hope I get my moms grey its beautiful but the grandma I take after had the steel wool grey

[SKL]

2 hours ago, Clemsondana said:

Having read more comments, I think we underestimate how many operate in micro-social groups.  Several years ago I went to a women's retreat event with my mom's church.  Some church groups chose to wear matching event T-shirts, but even without that you could often tell which groups went together. Whether everybody had the same style purse, or they all wore the same brand of sandals, or had similar haircuts...people tend to do things similarly to their social group because that's what's 'normal' or 'stylish'.  These weren't necessarily expensive things - most people in mom's group wore a particular brand of sandal that is under $30.  One person got some and said that they were comfortable, and others followed...and they are comfy, I have several pairs.  🙂  So, for some there could be a feeling of everybody doing it even though the rest of us aren't seeing it.  I see a lot of diversity of practice, but I travel between very different circles that don't really overlap much.  

On one hand, yes, birds of a feather flock together, and we get ideas from each other.  We recommend great purchases etc. to our friends, so eventually folks may be able to sense that we're in the same group.  But that doesn't mean any of it isn't a choice.  Even when we do it to please our friends (like when I go see a chick flick with them, though I hate chick flicks) - it's still a choice.

On the other hand ... women are often our own worst enemies.  We can be judgy, catty, conformist, competitive, and some of us haven't matured since middle school.  If we could all learn to encourage each other instead of attacking each other's self-worth, imagine the mountains we could move!

Is the latter misogyny?  Maybe it is.  I was thinking of starting a whole new thread about what "misogyny" really means.  Should we discuss?

Edited September 27, 2023 by SKL

[Murphy101]

Bras. 

who cares about hair dye and nails and heels?

bras though. Damn bras. I think if women have to wear them anytime they are in public then men should have to wear jock straps too. 

But it’s one of those things women do more because of other women than men.  

[ktgrok]

19 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Here’s what I know—I have reddish hair, and letting that go is going to be difficult.  It’s part of my identity, really.  Plus I look better, brighter, and somewhat younger with my hair dyed.  Once it goes all white I may reconsider, but the deep gray color that is on top right now is not at all how I want to look.  

I am a low maintenance woman, but I love keeping my hair colored.  

I don’t do facials, makeup except lipstick, haircuts (have not had a blade on my hair in almost 30 years), or manicures (although I occasionally will indulge in a pedicure.).  I think the investment of time and money in my hair color is worth every penny.

Fellow redhead. And I have no issues with being grey/looking old, but I DO have issues with losing my red, because as you say, redheads tend to consider being a redhead part of their identity in a way I think other hair colors don't. I mean, we have memes about being daywalkers 🙂

I started using overtone ginger conditioner about twice a week and it gives just enough redness back for me to feel like I am no longer an imposter redhead, lol. 

[TechWife]

I think primary weirdness is that your boss, who happens to be male and doesn’t seem to be a friend, felt free to comment on your hair color at all. I do think that men can get away with that weirdness without being questioned. Flip the roles - if a female boss said the same thing to a male employee, would people think that weird. So yes, I vote misogyny,  because the comment was made at all, not because it concerned hair color.

Discrimination based in having grey hair is ageism - or age discrimination. It happens to both men & women.

[marbel]

14 minutes ago, TechWife said:

I think primary weirdness is that your boss, who happens to be male and doesn’t seem to be a friend, felt free to comment on your hair color at all. I do think that men can get away with that weirdness without being questioned. Flip the roles - if a female boss said the same thing to a male employee, would people think that weird. So yes, I vote misogyny,  because the comment was made at all, not because it concerned hair color.

Discrimination based in having grey hair is ageism - or age discrimination. It happens to both men & women.

I missed that the boss (person in the conversation) is male. I think in general men are instructed not to comment on women's appearance, particularly in the workplace, but I am not sure how this conversation indicates misogyny or discrimination?  Am I missing some backstory about this person? 

Edited September 27, 2023 by marbel

[SKL]

7 minutes ago, marbel said:

I missed that the boss (person in the conversation) is male. I think in general men are instructed not to comment on women's appearance, particularly in the workplace, but I am not sure how this conversation indicates misogyny or discrimination?  Am I missing some backstory about this person? 

The assumption that boss = male is a whole other topic.  🙂  But again ... it's us women doing it.

Male or female ... why would it be all right for a female boss to say "your hair looks great" and not OK for a male boss to say the exact same words in the same context?  And again, it's women invoking that double standard.

[teachermom2834]

I let mine grow out during covid and I hated it. But I’m not yet 50 and I’m almost 50% grey if I let it go. I just do my natural color and I just do it at home as I am not a highly maintained lady. 
 

I do want to go grey naturally but I’m not sure how to. But I will look like a grandma and I don’t want to look like a grandma while I still am very actively parenting my 15 yo dd. Maybe when she has graduated high school I will work on figuring out how to transition. 
 

Kind of funny story. My dd goes to a private school and I am generally less maintained/less fashionable than the other moms and I’m comfortable with that. Well my dd has started dating a young man and I met his parents. The mom is probably mid fifties and nice looking. But she looks mid fifties with mostly grey hair. I have told a couple of my close girlfriends “his parents are really nice and normal. His mom has grey hair.” And when I say they I am saying that in the most complimentary of ways. She is nice and normal and confident in her grey hair and not trying to look like she is 30. So yeah I am commenting on it and I am doing it because I admire her and I think it means she is normal and not overly focused on the outer things. (But I color my hair and don’t want to be judged as abnormal for that….)

[popmom]

20 hours ago, SKL said:

 

I also know men who have colored their hair in order to look younger.  However, this is a big secret.  So the reality is, it's men who don't really have a choice to freely decide whether or not to color their hair (at least where the purpose is to hide the grays).

 

This is absolutely true.

[Alice]

Almost everyone woman where I live dyes their hair. I think it's fine if people want to but I agree that it shouldn't be seen as such a negative thing to have grey hair.

A funny story....about 10 years ago when I was starting to go grey the hairdresser I was going to would really pressure me to get my hair dyed. (This was Hair Cuttery and I wasn't really wedded to this particular person but I saw her a few times in a row and she would always ask about dying it and tell me how good it would look, etc). I liked the way she cut my hair but it was getting to the point where I was going to request someone different if she kept it up. I was checking out one day and the woman next to me turned and said "Oh, my goodness. I love all your highlights. It looks so beautiful." I just thanked her, smiled at the hairdresser as I paid and left. : ) 

No-one thinks I have just highlights anymore. Sometimes I do think I'd look better if I dyed it, less washed out...but the main reason I don't is that I'm lazy and don't think I would keep up with the maintenance and I think poorly maintained dyed hair looks worse than grey. Plus, at this point, I'm just used to it and like the way it looks. I do have natural red hair so my grey are really mostly white and they blend fairly well with the red. I might feel differently if I had different hair. 

[Harriet Vane]

My hair started to change when I was in fifth grade. When I went to university, I had a prominent white streak right in front and everyone assumed I had bleached it to be that way. When I got married, everyone assumed I would dye my hair, but dh was horrified at the very thought. He wanted me to look like *me.* And it seemed so much simpler to not deal with all that. The salt-and-pepper years in my mid-twenties were rough. But then it went over to 100% white. People stop me in the street to compliment my hair color. People ask where I get it done and are astounded that the color is natural. I'm struggling a bit with it now that I am in my fifties, but I still feel like I'd really rather not deal with the expense and upkeep of dying it, so onward I go with my silvery-white hair.

The one funny thing I hate about my hair, though--I have to make sure there's a bold background when taking a photos. If there is clear blue sky or a white wall, my hair melts into the background and my grinning face looks freaky. 😂

[Terabith]

1 hour ago, TechWife said:

I think primary weirdness is that your boss, who happens to be male and doesn’t seem to be a friend, felt free to comment on your hair color at all. I do think that men can get away with that weirdness without being questioned. Flip the roles - if a female boss said the same thing to a male employee, would people think that weird. So yes, I vote misogyny,  because the comment was made at all, not because it concerned hair color.

Discrimination based in having grey hair is ageism - or age discrimination. It happens to both men & women.

Oh, my boss is both female and a friend.  Not a close friend, but I like her and we do things socially once in awhile.

[Wheres Toto]

11 hours ago, cintinative said:

Do you all think there could be a socio-economic aspect to this? Our area tends to be upper middle class and a lot of women get highlights or color their hair.  My family doesn't match with them in many aspects, and the money spent on hair (haircuts, coloring, etc.) is just one of them. 

I live in one of the wealthiest counties in the country, and the town where I work is one of the wealthiest towns in the county.   I see a LOT of women who definitely could afford the upkeep, going grey.   There seems to be a trend around here of going natural.  

I've dyed my hair in the past but for fun not to cover grey.   I'm naturally a medium to dark brown, but I was blonde when dh and I started dating.  I've also done fun colors a few times - I've used Overtone after getting a sample pack and trying them.  I think it's the magenta that I really like over my hair.  Not the one for dark hair, I feel like those are made more for cooler toned hair and I have very warm tones in my hair.  But the regular magenta shows up as a subtle reddish/pink highlight in my hair.  I feel like it just brightens it up without looking very unnatural.   When I get greyer, I'll probably try more colors since they'll work better as my hair gets lighter.  

Right now I'm probably about 10% grey which much of it being in the hair around my face.  

[Terabith]

I think there is definitely a socio-cultural component to it, but I don't think it's a strictly linear correlation.  The truly wealthy areas definitely seem to favor naturalness at a higher level than the middle class to upper middle class.  

[marbel]

22 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I think there is definitely a socio-cultural component to it, but I don't think it's a strictly linear correlation.  The truly wealthy areas definitely seem to favor naturalness at a higher level than the middle class to upper middle class.  

Also, keep in mind that many women who are letting their hair gray naturally are also getting extensive salon treatments to get the gorgeous silky, shiny silvery look. I know of a few women who have incredible silver-gray hair and though it is technically natural, they pay a good bit to get rid of the frizz, etc. 

One of the things I do miss about coloring my hair is the extra body and lack of frizz that were a result of the color. I've thought of trying Overtone for silver hair to see if that does anything. I tried a glaze once - I think it was called a glaze - but it did nothing. 

Edited September 27, 2023 by marbel

[Melanie32]

1 minute ago, marbel said:

Also, keep in mind that many women who are letting their hair gray naturally are also getting extensive salon treatments to get the gorgeous silky, shiny silvery look. I know of a few women who have incredible silver-gray hair and though it is technically natural, they pay a good bit to get rid of the frizz, etc. 

One of the things I do miss about coloring my hair is the extra body and lack of frizz that were a result of the color. I've thought of trying Overtone for silver hair to see if that does anything. I tried a glaze once - I think it was called a glaze - but it did nothing. 

Have you tried a purple shampoo? I use one once a week along with moisturizing conditioner and a good leave in conditioner and it helps so much with the frizz/texture issues that can come with gray hair. 
 

To clarify, I use the moisturizing conditioner and the leave in conditioner every time I wash my hair along with a good moisturizing shampoo. 
 

On the days I don’t wash it, I use a hot air curl brush with a heat protectant to take the frizz and flyaways and it makes a tremendous difference! The combination of all of the above is what helped me to learn to love my gray hair.

[regentrude]

I don't dye my hair. At my last haircut (new salon), the staff commented on my great grey strands and how they could use my hair as an advertisement for the clients who want to have theirs dyed grey, which apparently is a thing, as evidenced by the younger woman who just left the salon before me.
Other than that, I don't have anybody commenting. I know many women who do not dye, many who are noticeably grey or white, not just grey "highlights".
My mother never colored her hair, and I will follow her example. I would hate the constraint of a routine that has to be maintained because grey roots in dyed hair look really unkempt. Not worth it. 
I also think hair alone isn't what makes a person appear "old" - you can compensate a lot by being fit and active.

[marbel]

18 minutes ago, Melanie32 said:

Have you tried a purple shampoo? I use one once a week along with moisturizing conditioner and a good leave in conditioner and it helps so much with the frizz/texture issues that can come with gray hair. 
 

To clarify, I use the moisturizing conditioner and the leave in conditioner every time I wash my hair along with a good moisturizing shampoo. 
 

On the days I don’t wash it, I use a hot air curl brush with a heat protectant to take the frizz and flyaways and it makes a tremendous difference! The combination of all of the above is what helped me to learn to love my gray hair.

Yes, I have used purple shampoo/conditioner; I find it helps keep the yellowing down but doesn't do much if anything for frizz.  Some leave-in conditioners help some, but not to the extent that hair color did! 

 

[Clarita]

I feel like my mom's generation of women feel like it's necessary. Somewhere between her generation and my generation women have decided they can do what they want/feel comfortable with their hair.

When I go significantly grey I'm going to dye my hair the super fun unnatural color at least once. I have dark brown/black hair so I have to heavily bleach my hair to get the fun colors. So I've been looking forward to doing that. I don't know if I'll keep up with it. I do feel like I have a choice. 

[MEmama]

53 minutes ago, marbel said:

trying Overtone for silver hair to see if that does anything.

When I went through my foolhardy months of attempting to embrace the grey, I used the grey overtone to hep tone down the brassiness of my brown hair (or at least, it looked brassy against the grey) and tame the grey frizz. It did help, and now that I've aborted the greying naturally phase the other colours I use tame it as well. 

[KungFuPanda]

4 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Fellow redhead. And I have no issues with being grey/looking old, but I DO have issues with losing my red, because as you say, redheads tend to consider being a redhead part of their identity in a way I think other hair colors don't. I mean, we have memes about being daywalkers 🙂

I started using overtone ginger conditioner about twice a week and it gives just enough redness back for me to feel like I am no longer an imposter redhead, lol. 

It’s just different being a redhead. I’m not ready to dye yet. I’m just starting to find some white hairs, but I’m pale and the hair is my only pop of color. I may experiment with conditioner you mentioned. My fear is trying a dye and the color is weird or wrong. Then what?

[Carol in Cal.]

6 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

Bras. 

who cares about hair dye and nails and heels?

bras though. Damn bras. I think if women have to wear them anytime they are in public then men should have to wear jock straps too. 

But it’s one of those things women do more because of other women than men.  

Yeah, they are miserable.

I wear my to church and to certain meetings and that is all, now.  

BOGO means bra off, game over.

[Melissa Louise]

White/silver/grey is fine if you are gorgeous and have gorgeous and/or salon-cared-for hair.

If you just look like a witch and a bedraggled one at that, it's not so easy.

I think there are class and age issues that intersect with the choice to go natural.

 

 

[SKL]

I dunno, I see a lot of women with colored hair that isn't gorgeous.  I know at least one person who "got lazy" and went from awkward colored hair to stunningly beautiful gray hair.  So I think that can go either way.

My hair is ugly.  I've never colored it and don't plan to, but I think it would still be ugly regardless of the color.  😛

[Harriet Vane]

1 hour ago, KungFuPanda said:

It’s just different being a redhead. I’m not ready to dye yet. I’m just starting to find some white hairs, but I’m pale and the hair is my only pop of color. I may experiment with conditioner you mentioned. My fear is trying a dye and the color is weird or wrong. Then what?

Okay, I don't want to spook you or Katie or any other redhead friends, but I've gotta say your post brought back *vivid* memories of my beloved grandma. She was an original redhead who dyed her hair all my life, so sometimes her hair was orange and sometimes it was pink. The effect was magnified by the hairdo, which she set in curlers and dried sitting under a bowl-style dryer and teased and sprayed into a rigidly shellacked, puffy helmet. As a child I thought it was all so lovely. As a teen I mocked her. And now as a grown-up, I just feel so much sympathy for her struggle to bring back her gorgeous, original color on a poverty budget.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Harriet Vane

[Melissa in Australia]

Sometimes it is just the person not taking a compliment and nothing to do with the person saying someone has great hair. 

[TechWife]

14 hours ago, SKL said:

The assumption that boss = male is a whole other topic.  🙂  But again ... it's us women doing it.

Male or female ... why would it be all right for a female boss to say "your hair looks great" and not OK for a male boss to say the exact same words in the same context?  And again, it's women invoking that double standard.

It’s not okay - that was my point.
 

There are a lot of societal “norms” that people observe that don’t reflect themselves in the best light. Over the past several years women have gotten better recognizing that and calling out the double standards we experience. When you know better, you do better. 

13 hours ago, Terabith said:

Oh, my boss is both female and a friend.  Not a close friend, but I like her and we do things socially once in awhile.

I’m laughing at myself for jumping to the conclusion that your boss is a man. I guess I stereotyped the word “boss.”  Embarrassing. 

In any case, misogyny is normally a male belief/behavior, so I wouldn’t equate that comment made by a female friend to be misogynistic. 

Absent the fictional “male boss,” what we’re all observing w/regards to grey hair is old fashioned age discrimination. 

[ScoutTN]

My hair is light brown. My mom always called it “mousey” (=ugly) and had me dyeing it blonde from my teen years on. I quit that and cut it super short at 17. After about 10 years, I started highlighting it. Kept that til my kids were mid-elementary and I realized that for the cost of highlighting my hair at a good salon, I could send my kids to summer camp. Great experience for them, vacation for me!  Money was tight and I chose camp. Never looked back. My mouse-brown has a little gray in it now at 57; it’s fine. 
 

I see lots of women with dyed or highlighted hair and lots without.  Money and personality do play in to those choices.

[Carol in Cal.]

10 hours ago, Harriet Vane said:

Okay, I don't want to spook you or Katie or any other redhead friends, but I've gotta say your post brought back *vivid* memories of my beloved grandma. She was an original redhead who dyed her hair all my life, so sometimes her hair was orange and sometimes it was pink. The effect was magnified by the hairdo, which she set in curlers and dried sitting under a bowl-style dryer and teased and sprayed into a rigidly shellacked, puffy helmet. As a child I thought it was all so lovely. As a teen I mocked her. And now as a grown-up, I just feel so much sympathy for her struggle to bring back her gorgeous, original color on a poverty budget.

I’ve been gradually going with lighter and lighter shades, as my face has paled with age, and one nice fringe benefit of this is that white shows less and less prominently in it as it grows out.  Eventually I’ll probably calm down through strawberry blonde into a golden white.  And then maybe go natural.  I don’t know.  I’m playing it by ear.  I always want it to look plausibly natural, so that’s my priority.   If it starts looking too fake, I’ll reconsider completely.

[gardenmom5]

I don't think it is "required", and I don't think it's misogyny - I think it is ageism. 

Even in the 70s, there were products on the market for MEN to 'cover' their gray.  I can think of a lot of commercials - and plot lines out of hollywood for TV shows, of men trying to look younger.   Hollywood is a town where age matters, unless you are a powerhouse star, aging isn't "allowed" for lead roles. (not even men).  Even older actors do things to look younger.

My husband still gloats about how little gray he has (and how much younger he looks than his same age peers).  Big, huge, eyeroll.

Women tend to have longer hair than men (though that is changing), so the gray will show more readily.

It's like the beauty business will tell women with curly hair - they must straighten it, and women with straight hair - they must curl it.  What I see is $$$$ for the beauty business.

 

[Laura Corin]

13 hours ago, Harriet Vane said:

Okay, I don't want to spook you or Katie or any other redhead friends, but I've gotta say your post brought back *vivid* memories of my beloved grandma. She was an original redhead who dyed her hair all my life, so sometimes her hair was orange and sometimes it was pink. The effect was magnified by the hairdo, which she set in curlers and dried sitting under a bowl-style dryer and teased and sprayed into a rigidly shellacked, puffy helmet. As a child I thought it was all so lovely. As a teen I mocked her. And now as a grown-up, I just feel so much sympathy for her struggle to bring back her gorgeous, original color on a poverty budget.

My red headed stepmother is fast moving into late stage Elizabeth I territory, despite getting her hair professionally dyed. She's 74.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Laura Corin

[Clarita]

5 hours ago, ScoutTN said:

My hair is light brown. My mom always called it “mousey” (=ugly) and had me dyeing it blonde from my teen years on.

The dark blonde to light brown hair color is what I always wanted. My MIL had to tell me it was a frowned upon hair color. (I have dark brown/jet black hair so I have to dye a lot of things with a lot of upkeep to make that hair color work for me.)

[Terabith]

7 hours ago, TechWife said:

In any case, misogyny is normally a male belief/behavior, so I wouldn’t equate that comment made by a female friend to be misogynistic. 

Absent the fictional “male boss,” what we’re all observing w/regards to grey hair is old fashioned age discrimination. 

I had absolutely no qualms about the conversation with my co-workers/ friends.  I don't think that was misogyny at all.  My thought about misogyny was the (in our culture) obligation to keep hair dyed, at great time and money cost to the woman.  But you guys are right, ageism makes more sense.  (And of course there's absolutely nothing wrong with dyeing your hair if you like it.  It's the requirement to do so even if you don't really want to in order to stay employed and to be thought well of by society that seems problematic.)

[gardenmom5]

7 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

My red headed stepmother is fast moving into late stage Elizabeth I territory, despite getting her hair professionally dyed. She's 74.

Dh has red hair.   There are hints of gray and it's faded, but it's clearly red.  He's 75.

His sister,  dyes her hair red. (She claims it's her real color.  Um. No.) She always had light brownish hair when younger. After chemo, it was quite gray. Then she started dying it again. 

Mil dyed her hair black until she was too out of it.    She died two weeks before her 94th birthday. 

 

[marbel]

One of my aunts dyed her hair red (it was actually pretty orange, so I guess QEI as well) most of her adult life. When she couldn't do it anymore (she lived to be 100), one of her kids did it for her. Not my thing, but good for her. She liked having that red(ish) hair.  All the family had dark brown hair so she did not come by it naturally, not even close. 

That was my father's sister. Her mother (who also dyed her hair) disapproved of her daughter-in-law (my mom) because she wouldn't dye her hair and would nag her about it. Once she gave her a wig as a "gift." Hoo boy. Still I think my mother was fond of her MIL. She was quite an outspoken lady but it was obvious that she loved her family so much.