Can you help me think through how to deal with my mom?

[Drama Llama]

PLEASE DON'T QUOTE

My mom was a good mom when I was growing up.  Not perfect.  She definitely had a favorite kid, my brother, which hurt, and she was kind of uptight about a lot of things.  But we were well cared for and knew we were loved.  I had a good childhood.

As an adult, she disagreed pretty strongly with my choice of spouse, but she came to my wedding, and we sort of developed a polite but kind of distant relationship.  We saw her exactly twice a year, for Mother's Day at my house and Thanksgiving at hers, and whoever was visiting stayed in a hotel, and we spoke by phone every Sunday afternoon.  Then in 2018 when my cousin's child ended up parentless in PICU, and we decided to adopt him, she made it very clear that she didn't approve.  I had to put my foot down and tell her that he was her grandchild now, and that if she wanted to be able to send Christmas and Birthday presents to her other two grandchildren, and speak to them on the phone on Sundays, she needed to send gifts to him and speak to him.  And she complied, although I later found out that she didn't tell any of her friends she had a third grandchild.  

We missed spending the Thanksgiving right before he came home with her, because I wanted to be close to him in the hospital, and then he was back in the hospital that mother's day, and I chose to be with him again.  She questioned both choices.  In November 2019, I told her she could come to us, but he wasn't up to travel, and she did, and at Thanksgiving dinner she pulled my GFIL aside to try to convince him that he should tell us we should put him back in an institution.  My GFIL's response was basically "You're leaving so early?  Let me get your coat."  

We kind of limped through the rest of the visit, with DH making sure she didn't see my middle child again, and she flew back Saturday.  My intention was to talk to her on Sunday, but DS was really clingy, he was scared about a hospital admission the next day, and I didn't manage to talk to her alone.  And then a few days later everything went to hell, and the next time my mom and I spoke he was on hospice, and the conversation never happened.   I told her he entered hospice, and then basically stopped giving her info on him.  When he died, I waited a few days and called her priest who called her to break the news.  It was covid so coming to his funeral in person wasn't an option, but she didn't call or write a condolence note on the wall of the virtual funeral.  Instead she just waited and a few weeks later I called her on Sunday and we just proceeded.

My kids know what she said.  My oldest has pretty much refused to talk to her since then.  He'll come in the room when I'm on Zoom for something like Christmas and say "Merry Christmas Grandma", but that's it.  My youngest will talk if he's in the room, but if he's not around I make an excuse (before DS2, I would gather the kids and we'd call together).  

I saw her once in the summer 2021 when she was in a nearby city on vacation and I met her at an outdoor restaurant for a couple hours.  Then this fall, she called and asked me to come help her move, and I've gone up twice.  She's lost a lot of mobility, and is moving to one of those places with independent living, assisted living, and nursing care all in one place, which I think is good.  At the visit she told me that I am the child she has the most contact with, and feels like she can count on, and that she hopes I will start visiting and bringing the kids, who are her only grandchildren.

I don't know what to do.  I think what she said, and the way she reacted to my son's arrival and death was horrible.  it's hard to forgive.  At the same time, she's someone I love, and I feel a responsibility to her.  My siblings, including the favored one who lives close by, have very little contact.  I also know that my kids are watching closely.  They're both in a really hard situation, trying to figure out what to do about their relationship with their own father, who has done both wonderful and horrible things.  My oldest is so angry at him, but feels the same kind of responsibility I feel to my mom.  My youngest is scared of his father, and also desperate for his approval.  I know they're looking at me.  If I say "this thing she said, is worth ending a relationship over." How can I expect that they won't take that as "You can cut off your dad."  And frankly my oldest is so angry, that I worry at some point he'll decide to cut off all of us.  DH would love for me to cut her off, but honestly as long as he forces us to interact with his crazy sister every week, he doesn't really have a leg to stand on to say my kids can't see her.  

So, I have no idea.  Do I take them to visit?  Do I say "I'll come for Thanksgiving, but without the kids?"  Do I make an excuse (our custody agreement right now wouldn't allow them to visit on Thanksgiving, but I could make a trade)?  Do I explain why to her?  It's been 3 years.  It seems ridiculous to bring up a hurtful comment from 3 years ago.  

Does anyone else have a family member who has done hateful things, but they've chosen to have a relationship with?  

PLEASE DON'T QUOTE

[bolt.]

(Note: I have no relevant experience. I'm just thinking about this as an outside perspective.)

I think she has forfeited "a warm relationship" -- not just because of her past conduct (which might or might not be forgivable) but because that conduct has given you valuable and truthful information about who she is. You can be a warm buddy-lovey daughter to her if you want to... but I think that would backfire. 

However I don't think she has to be "cut off" either. Again, if you want to go there, it's not off the table, but it's not the only option.

Especially given the aspect that you are not only navigating a difficult relationship, but also role-modeling what might become your kids' go-to plan for dealing with their dad, or even for dealing with you personally... I think you would find great strength in modeling a "dutiful but not fawning" relationship with your mom. You can have great respect for her humanity and dignity, but keep the relationship "cool". You can give of yourself for her wellbeing, and you can mind your manners, but you can also keep things brief and not really get "personal" with her. At least not from your side. (And 'not getting personal' includes not continuing to reach out by explaining your hurt or justifying your decisions.)

I would not take the kids. They are not props, and they are not 'part of her life' -- they are people, and they are people that she hasn't chosen to have a healthy relationship with. Keep them on phone/video, and teach them how to be kind without actually being close with someone. Don't make them travel for her sake, and don't make them be present just to please her. (You can then reduce your visits to 'every second thanksgiving' -- since you can't be expected to be away for thanksgiving every year.)

I would not explain anything, or at least say very little. Maybe say, "They are getting older. Thanksgiving with Grandma really isn't what we are doing any more. You'll have to make do with me!"

Edited October 2, 2022 by bolt.

[Beth S]

You're dealing with so much.
For these kinds of relationships, I send photos in the mail.
It conveys that I'm thinking of them, but it doesn't require the back-and-forth of a conversation.
They have something tangible in their hands to think about you, but you're not exposing the kids to lots more pain.

[Annie G]

I wouldn’t involve your kids in the relationship w your mom right now.  So think about how your kids are navigating the relationship w their father- if they had kids, it would be really hard to navigate that relationship AND guide their kids through a relationship w him. Same with you. Right now you’re trying to work through it and determine whether you can salvage a mother/daughter relationship. Until you figure that out, why even bring your kids into it?

Was she against the adoption because she worried about how hard it was going to be for you? That’s understandable, but once you stood firm she should have supported you. I understand how you feel-she didn’t treat him like a grandchild. It sounds like complicated emotions all around. 
 

I’m sorry. You should be able to count on your mom to be in your corner. 

[Lecka]

I think you are taking on too much if you think your decision will have a direct 1:1 impact on the decision your children make.  I think it could have some effect but it would be very far from being the only factor or from being something that is “your responsibility” at the level of seeing it as having this level of impact on your kids.  
 

I also think your kids do not need to know every detail, you can decide what you want to share with them.

 

 

[athena1277]

I think you could keep the relationship you have with her, where you check on her occasionally, but aren’t super close.  I think with all that has happened, I would let your kids decide if they want to see or talk to her.  A conversation about all of it with them would probably be a good idea.  Let them know what you decided for yourself and let them discuss the pros and cons of having any kind of relationship with her.

[J-rap]

To me, it doesn't seem like she has a toxic personality disorder or something like that, but rather is a mixed-up, imperfect, probably immature person who doesn't know how to rise above her own prejudices and anxieties.

I'd give her the benefit of the doubt, and try and believe that she's doing the best she can -- even though it's poorly done.  

That said, I would not involve your children.  You don't need to expose your children to potentially triggering people right now, given everything going on.  Maybe if they were older and stronger you could, and then they could simply understand her as she is, with no expectations.

I'd restrict your visits to just you and her (for now), but I'd keep them up.  I like to think that most people aren't past the point of no return.  (Although I recognize that some people are.)  If you remain strong and don't let yourself get emotionally involved but make your visits more just practical and honest, who knows...  

I don't think you need to go into long explanations with her (she's probably not ready for them).  But, I would answer any questions she has honestly -- short and sweet.  Maybe? she's still on a learning curve.  I don't think you need to give up your Thanksgiving with your kids either. You can tell her that you'll come the day after Thanksgiving (or the weekend before, or whatever), and the two of you can celebrate it then.

I don't think you need to go into long explanations with your children either.  It might be a good opportunity though to explain that some people -- due to maybe a difficult upbringing or mental health issues -- have a harder time navigating life and knowing how to love people well.  And that those people might be doing the best they can.  And then model boundaries.

[Drama Llama]

1 minute ago, J-rap said:

To me, it doesn't seem like she has a toxic personality disorder or something like that, but rather is a mixed-up, imperfect, probably immature person who doesn't know how to rise above her own prejudices and anxieties.

I'd give her the benefit of the doubt, and try and believe that she's doing the best she can -- even though it's poorly done.  

That said, I would not involve your children.  You don't need to expose your children to potentially triggering people right now, given everything going on.  Maybe if they were older and stronger you could, and then they could simply understand her as she is, with no expectations.

My kids are 12 and 15.  They are pretty old and strong. 

1 minute ago, J-rap said:

I'd restrict your visits to just you and her (for now), but I'd keep them up.  I like to think that most people aren't past the point of no return.  (Although I recognize that some people are.)  If you remain strong and don't let yourself get emotionally involved but make your visits more just practical and honest, who knows...  

I don't think you need to go into long explanations with her (she's probably not ready for them).  But, I would answer any questions she has honestly -- short and sweet.  Maybe? she's still on a learning curve.  I don't think you need to give up your Thanksgiving with your kids either. You can tell her that you'll come the day after Thanksgiving (or the weekend before, or whatever), and the two of you can celebrate it then.

I don't think you need to go into long explanations with your children either.  It might be a good opportunity though to explain that some people -- due to maybe a difficult upbringing or mental health issues -- have a harder time navigating life and knowing how to love people well.  And that those people might be doing the best they can.  And then model boundaries.

My kids know more about the impact mental health issues have on people and how they interact with people they love, than most kids.  It's not like we haven't had plenty of opportunities to have that conversation about their brother, Dad, me, their aunt, their grandmother, themselves.

[catz]

I would never force my kids at those ages after all of that.  I would let any interactions be their choice.  I personally wouldn't go at a holiday if it meant her vs. the kids, but maybe that depends on how your holidays are going to roll this year with your DH.

I also think for you it is also important to be modeling healthy boundaries and taking care of your own mental health.  I think that is just as important as modeling letting go of anger and maybe some level of forgiveness and helping take responsibility for an aging parent.  I also think it's fine to defer to your other siblings.  This isn't all on you and I actually think it is manipulative of her to lay this on you the way she did mentioning you're the closest to her, etc.  I suspect she reaped what she sowed in terms of the quality of her adult child relationships.    

If she is of reasonably sound mind and she asks about the kids visiting, I also think being honest is fine "A and B are very hurt about how you treated C, so they would prefer not to talk or visit for now.  But here are their school photos".   You can pass the cheese dip and not dive into it further, but I don't think you should need to make excuses for a cool and more business-like relationship while grandkids chose not to be involved.  

I also think your DH is modeling bad behavior by giving SIL a pass all the time.  I wouldn't want to use that as a reason your kids should have a relationship with a grandmother they'd rather not have contact with.  I actually found it useful to talk to my kids when other adults were behaving strangely or badly.  Not in an accusatory "isn't X a terrible person" way.  But more in a "I wonder why X is acting so strangely, I wonder ....."  That leads us down some interesting rabbit holes about people's tool boxes for dealing with life and stress and psychology.  She likely had some motivation for being so cold to your sweet middle child.  

I'm so sorry this is on your plate to think about!  

Edited October 2, 2022 by catz

[Lecka]

I do agree about discussing it with the kids, I said before I would limit that.

Well, I would limit compared to what I would say to another adult.  I think it would be good to have an honest conversation, too.  But it’s okay to keep them out of it on a lot of levels and not tell them everything that comes up.  

[Carol in Cal.]

i don't think you necessarily need to map this all out in advance.  Although I do understand that it can be kind of comforting to have a plan.

I feel like I don't have the entire backstory at all, so it puts me at a loss for how serious the issue of your deceased son is.  

I'm in my mid-sixties, and when I was growing up, it was considered a kindness to everyone to separate out special needs kids and dying people.  It was absolute advice all the time.  We managed to keep my grandmother home to die, and I thought we invented that.  I have a friend whose brother was born with Down's Syndrome, and as soon as he was I think school age, or maybe a bit before, he was put into a 'home'.  That was so normalized that people mostly didn't even question it, let alone go against it.  I don't know what the issues were with your son, nor how old your mother is, but it is quite possible that her behavior is entirely a product of her time.  I'm glad things have changed so much, but 'the experts' ALL used to say to put special needs kids into homes as early as possible so that they could get used to it, be taken care of by professionals, and live and die there.  Many of them suggested avoiding visiting because it would be too painful and disruptive for everybody.

Adoptions were like that, too.  It was considered a big fat no no to have any contact between the birth parents and the adoptive parents.  You were supposed to wave a wand and make that change, and that was that.

While I entirely appreciate how hurtful it would have been to endure your mom's behavior, it's possible that she is at a loss, too, because she was raised to believe that the supportive thing to do is let everyone sweep such things under the rug to avoid pain.  I don't think she was right to be that way, but it might not have been as malicious or insensitive as it felt.

My inclination is to suggest that you try to keep this out of your holidays.  Start to spend a little time with her less formally by yourself, and see how you feel and how it goes.  After a few visits, think about whether there is anything deep that you badly need to say to her, and keep it as calm as possible.  Go step by step.  Don't decide about your kids yet, and don't change your holidays.  You can say that you're avoiding holiday travel due to Covid and it's perfectly reasonable.  That's how it sounds to me.

[Lecka]

Honestly I don’t think it makes sense to take the kids to see her.  
 

And in that case, I’m not sure it makes sense for you to go.
 

That is life.  
 

When somebody has treated you poorly, I think you can choose to see them when it will work for you and your kids.  
 

It doesn’t sound like it would be great for your kids to see her, to me.

 

And then, is that how you want to spend your Thanksgiving?  If it is, that’s great.  If not, she can see you when it works for you.  
 

That’s really how I feel.

 

October 1 is way too early to dread seeing a difficult relative for Thanksgiving.  
 

I think maybe see her, if you want to see her, at a time when your kids have some kind of activity or plans, for your own convenience and preference.  And that works for her, too, but that is not just on her terms.  

It’s okay for plans to change and holidays to change, over time.  

[Scarlett]

I am 57. So maybe this is my age speaking….but I don’t see anything so horrible about your mother.  Although I respect you taking on a child that was not yours that doesn’t magically translate to grandchild for your mom. I thought that the other day about the portraits.

You might never have a super close warm relationship but I also don’t think you need to cut her off. And your kids are old enough to have their own relationships with her.  

[gardenmom5]

 

Her favorite who lives near her, - isn't interested in a relationship with her.    It sounds like you're the only sibling willing to help her, even though you live furthest away.  That is telling . . . .

As far as relationships with toxic people - each situation is different, and these are not one size fits all solutions.

I understand the feeling an obligation/etc.  I have that with my brother. (our parents are deceased.)   He's currently fishing for a Thanksgiving invite.  I'm not sure I would if it was *just* me.  I will not inflict him on other people.  His kids who have gone so far as to gather documentation for a restraining order against him.   He is not allowed in my house because of previous behavior.

at one point, I had to remind my brother that he had lived away from here for over 20 years - and he never knew our grandmother as an adult.  (and he was the golden child.)  Relationships from a distance, can be very misleading as to who those people really are.

 

 

[Lecka]

I have seen my in-laws without my kids a few times now.

The opportunity is there for them to be on better behavior and then if that happens, we can tell our kids.

In the meantime, that hasn’t happened.

But, it could happen.  In the meantime we aren’t dragging our kids into it.  
 

My husband and I have also limited things more than I think you might choose.  We would both describe his parents as dysfunctional and crossing the line into abusive.  Well — they are still his parents and he also feels a duty to them.  But he doesn’t feel a duty to do things how they want.  And sometimes they don’t like that and are ugly about it, and that just reinforces why we didn’t take our kids.  And then we think “well we won’t be bringing the kids next time, that is for sure.”  But still if we had a few good visits we would share that with our kids and let them know that we have seen a change in their behavior.

 

But we don’t see them often.  The last time we went was for a health scare and I am glad we went because it was the right thing to do.  But the category of “it’s the right thing to do” has gotten narrower over time.  
 

Edit:  I leave it open that there could be a change, even though I don’t think it’s likely.  If I thought they were going to be able to be pleasant to be around and not make any mean-spirited comments or have some kind of drama, I would notice it and I would think it was a good thing and I would want to encourage my kids.  I do want my kids to have the benefit of this relationship.  But it is just not our situation.  
 

I would also say they are people to visit when the visitor is at their best, and ready for what is likely to be a mentally draining and exhausting visit.  When the visitor is stressed or needs to be around someone who will be nice and caring — it’s not the time to visit them.  
 

I think you could want and expect to see her again in the future, but you don’t have to do a draining visit when you have got so much going on.  

Edited October 2, 2022 by Lecka

[KungFuPanda]

Do you believe she loves you and loves your children? Do you love her? Is she a toxic person in general?  Does she want to spend time with you or is she grasping because she needs help in old age? 

Only you know these answers but an argument can be made that she tried to interfere in your life to spare you, and even herself, from great pain. The husband she didn’t care for has caused you pain. The loss of your son hurt the whole family. I can understand trying to shield my child from that. The way she went about it was horribly misguided, keeping distant from your son could be self protection. I don’t know her. She could just be selfish, but if these were her two great mistakes in a lifetime of love and care, it might be worth considering if she only  wanted an easier and happier life for HER baby

[Rosie_0801]

I would explain exactly why I made whatever choices I made to my kids. Sometimes my explanations begin with "I know this looks like poor boundaries, but the reason I'm doing it anyway is ..." 

We don't have as much power over the relationship between our children and their father as report writers expect us to. You have to make whatever you think is the healthiest choices you can with your mother, regardless of what your kids may or may not do about their father. They are different relationships involving different people.

[Katy]

I would put aside her comments about relying on you. You obviously have a higher sense of duty and reliability than other family members. She may be relying on that to manipulate you to be the person responsible for her. That doesn’t mean you have to comply. 

I think I’d personally spend some time praying about it, but ultimately I’d do whatever I felt like the Holy Spirit (if religious), or sense of grace and compassion (if not) guided me to do. I don’t believe there’s one answer right for everyone.

I think it would be totally fine to say, “Mom I’m still really hurt by the way you treated son. My capacity to pretend I’m not deeply wounded is maxed out. You should rely on (favorite child), not me.”  And then continue twice a year contact and leave it at that.

As to the boys, if they don’t know the full extent of what happened, I’d tell them. In an age appropriate truthful way, not an emotion dumping enmeshing way. And I’d tell them from that point forward each time I contacted her I’d leave their involvement up to them. And I’d ask them each time because they might change their minds. 

[Drama Llama]

2 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

i don't think you necessarily need to map this all out in advance.  Although I do understand that it can be kind of comforting to have a plan.

Well, if we're going to go, I need to start working out the custody thing, and book a hotel before things full up.  

2 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I feel like I don't have the entire backstory at all, so it puts me at a loss for how serious the issue of your deceased son is.  

I'm not sure what you mean.  

2 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I'm in my mid-sixties, and when I was growing up, it was considered a kindness to everyone to separate out special needs kids and dying people.  It was absolute advice all the time.  We managed to keep my grandmother home to die, and I thought we invented that.  I have a friend whose brother was born with Down's Syndrome, and as soon as he was I think school age, or maybe a bit before, he was put into a 'home'.  That was so normalized that people mostly didn't even question it, let alone go against it.  I don't know what the issues were with your son, nor how old your mother is, but it is quite possible that her behavior is entirely a product of her time.  I'm glad things have changed so much, but 'the experts' ALL used to say to put special needs kids into homes as early as possible so that they could get used to it, be taken care of by professionals, and live and die there.  Many of them suggested avoiding visiting because it would be too painful and disruptive for everybody.

Adoptions were like that, too.  It was considered a big fat no no to have any contact between the birth parents and the adoptive parents.  You were supposed to wave a wand and make that change, and that was that.

I think our kind of adoption, where someone takes in the child of a close family member who dies, is probably the oldest kind.  

2 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

While I entirely appreciate how hurtful it would have been to endure your mom's behavior, it's possible that she is at a loss, too, because she was raised to believe that the supportive thing to do is let everyone sweep such things under the rug to avoid pain.  I don't think she was right to be that way, but it might not have been as malicious or insensitive as it felt.

My inclination is to suggest that you try to keep this out of your holidays.  Start to spend a little time with her less formally by yourself, and see how you feel and how it goes.  After a few visits, think about whether there is anything deep that you badly need to say to her, and keep it as calm as possible.  Go step by step.  Don't decide about your kids yet, and don't change your holidays.  You can say that you're avoiding holiday travel due to Covid and it's perfectly reasonable.  That's how it sounds to me.

 

[Drama Llama]

54 minutes ago, Katy said:

I would put aside her comments about relying on you. You obviously have a higher sense of duty and reliability than other family members. She may be relying on that to manipulate you to be the person responsible for her. That doesn’t mean you have to comply. 

I think I’d personally spend some time praying about it, but ultimately I’d do whatever I felt like the Holy Spirit (if religious), or sense of grace and compassion (if not) guided me to do. I don’t believe there’s one answer right for everyone.

I think it would be totally fine to say, “Mom I’m still really hurt by the way you treated son. My capacity to pretend I’m not deeply wounded is maxed out. You should rely on (favorite child), not me.”  And then continue twice a year contact and leave it at that.

As to the boys, if they don’t know the full extent of what happened, I’d tell them. In an age appropriate truthful way, not an emotion dumping enmeshing way. And I’d tell them from that point forward each time I contacted her I’d leave their involvement up to them. And I’d ask them each time because they might change their minds. 

They know what was said at Thanksgiving.  My oldest was old enough to realize that something was up. The day that she said it, DH decided that DS wouldn't be around her again, and he kept the two younger kids at his Dad's house.  DS asked what was up.  We didn't tell my youngest, because there it's quite likely he would have blabbed to his brother, and there's no way that my kid, who was constantly terrified of losing us, would have taken it well.  When I saw my mom for the first time in summer 2021, I told my youngest who seemed confused that I didn't bring him.  

[Shoeless]

@Baseballandhockey I won't quote, but the last sentence of your original post? Yes. I have those people in my life.  My relatives have said some stunningly awful things and yet seem very surprised that I might react negatively to their words. 

I don't buy into the idea of letting what she said slide because she's old and of a different generation. Your GFIL is of an older generation, yet he got 100% on board with loving your son.  And the "older generation" also knows that when someone dies, you send your condolences to the immediate family.  You call, you send a card, you send flowers, a casserole, you do something to acknowledge the loss. 

Your mom did not love your son, but she can still express sympathy for your loss. And to me, this is the most egregious thing, the fact that she wasn't there for you and acted like nothing of importance happened.  

This isn't a generation gap issue. Your mom has a heart two sizes too small.  

But you, Baseballandhockey, have an enormous, generous, loving heart. Maybe that is why you feel so conflicted about your mom.  Your sense of compassion and love for your family rings clear as a bell in every post you share with us.  

You don't have to do more for your mother than what you are currently doing.  Your kids don't have to visit her if it stresses and upsets them.  If your mother is sad that her other children don't visit her more, then she needs to have a heart to heart with those children, instead of guilting you to do more for her. The whole situation is so sad, but you don't have to make it better for her at the expense of your own enormous, generous, loving heart and at the expense of your kids. 

❤️ 

 

[saraha]

@Baseballandhockey I am one of those who has a mom that has done hateful things and I keep a sort of relationship with. I have absolutely no advice, but lots of sympathy and hugs 

[HomeAgain]

This is so hard. 😞

I am kind of with you in thinking that not only are you modeling behavior, but you're showing that your behavior is the only thing you can really control and answer for.  If you cut her off because of anger it can be seen as retaliation.  If you continue and accept her weaknesses and faults it can be seen as being weak or accepting the treatment of your son.  It's a fine line.  I don't think you have a clear answer.  I think what you do have is a series of individual events that you will need to choose a path in.  Wish her well on Thanksgiving and send over flowers on Mother's day.  Pick up when she calls, but keep the conversations about the weather, sports, and local news.  Offer friendliness, not friendship.

I don't see the relationship healing.  I don't think that's supposed to be the point.  I do see you feeling okay about your arm's length distance and your kids seeing how to handle tough people.

[kristin0713]

First, to have any kind of relationship with her, including being available to help, I would need to have a conversation about the past. Something like “Listen Mom, I need you to know that these things were really hurtful to me. You may completely disagree with our choices, but the lack of kindness and support deeply hurt me.”  Then her response would determine my next move. I’m big on open communication and closure. I could not continue to see her without discussing this. 

[scholastica]

9 minutes ago, kristin0713 said:

First, to have any kind of relationship with her, including being available to help, I would need to have a conversation about the past. Something like “Listen Mom, I need you to know that these things were really hurtful to me. You may completely disagree with our choices, but the lack of kindness and support deeply hurt me.”  Then her response would determine my next move. I’m big on open communication and closure. I could not continue to see her without discussing this. 

While this is a good way to approach healthy people, with an unhealthy person, one has to be prepared for it to lead to more hurt and to know in advance what one will do when they don’t react kindly. My person would tell me all the ways I am wrong for feeling hurt and how they were right all along because look how things are now. I choose to stay in relationship because the person is very damaged and it’s not their fault they are the way they are. I choose to have contact but know not to expect a normal relationship. 

[Lecka]

I agree, I think there are situations where the behavior would not be acceptable from any other person, and it would be clear not to continue a relationship with any other person.

But it’s not any other person, it’s a close family member, and there is a history and sense of duty, or a desire to salvage whatever is possible to be salvaged, or to try to have some semblance of a regular family relationship (I say this about my situation — there is a huge desire to be someone who has regular family relationships, and maybe if we do it on our side, it will mean at least we have it on our side…. But it’s limited to our side, we can’t actually make their be a regular family relationship because that takes two sides).

 

Anyway — whatever standard there is for any other person, it just may not be relevant if it’s pretty known that this person will not meet any of those standards, and maybe if someone that you would really not respect or choose to be around if you met them in any other circumstance (again this is more about my situation).

 

In fact — if a person has shown that they will use personal information as ammunition to hurt you with it, now or later, don’t give them the personal information.

 

That is our situation.  
 

If we had to have a “conversation with resolution” then that is just something that is unlikely to happen, so we are more — figuring out how to do things when that is not the case, and in fact some pretty hurtful things have been said and done, and there is not going to be any resolution.  
 

[DawnM]

You have been given good advice.   I allow my kids to interact with grandparents as much or little as they wish for the most part.   We don't have much of any relationship with DH's mom.   She has made it clear who her favorite children and grandchildren are, and we aren't them!  

I am so sorry you have to deal with all this stress.   You have done the right thing and seemingly been berated for it.....it isn't right.

[Drama Llama]

13 hours ago, bolt. said:

(Note: I have no relevant experience. I'm just thinking about this as an outside perspective.)

I think she has forfeited "a warm relationship" -- not just because of her past conduct (which might or might not be forgivable) but because that conduct has given you valuable and truthful information about who she is. You can be a warm buddy-lovey daughter to her if you want to... but I think that would backfire. 

 

To be clear, we didn't really have a warm relationship before.  I wouldn't consider two visits of 1 -2 nights a year, with the visitor(s) staying in a hotel, and scheduled phone calls that are  to be a particularly close grandparent relationship.  I mean, I know I might not have the most realistic perception of what normal grandparent-grandchild relationship looks like, because my kids' relationship to their other living grandparent is at the other extreme, but I think her relationship with them has always been more formal than average.  

And I might need to go up more when she needs help with something, but for the kids I think all she is expecting is that we go back to where we were, where she sees them once or twice a year, for a few hours on a few consecutive days.  

[Tanaqui]

Oh boy.

So I have SO MANY THOUGHTS, not all of which are useful, but here's one: This woman has 3+ children, and none of them are interested in having a close relationship with her. That looks like a pattern, and there really aren't very many reasons for a pattern like this one.

I always think the same thing in situations like these, and it may be a bit flippant but here it is: If she wanted to die surrounded by her loving children and grandchildren, she should have tried being nicer to them.

And that's the truth.

Right now, your responsibility is to your kids. Not to their dad, not to your mom, not to your idea about your relationship in the future - to your kids. And even without all this backstory, they're at an age where it is very reasonable for them to have exactly as much or as little contact with Grandma as they want. With all this backstory? Hooboy.

If your goal is for them not to take the dramatic step of cutting off contact entirely as adults, the best thing you can do right now is respect their right to limit contact with their grandmother. That will show that you respect and understand their wishes in this matter, as well as their need to keep themselves safe.

I also think you need to bring all of this up with a therapist, and... honestly, I think one of the things you probably should do with that therapist is revisit your childhood, because... well... let's just say I don't think your mom suddenly became like this as her kids entered adulthood.

Edited October 2, 2022 by Tanaqui

[mommyoffive]

I am so sorry that this has happened to you.  I don't think we can tell you do this or that.  It has to be what you feel better about doing.  If cutting off contact makes you feel better than that is the right choice for you. 

I have a difficult relationship with my mother and it has caused a lot of pain and sadness on my end.  It is a sucky place to be.

 

[Terabith]

I think I would ask your kids what they want to do.  They’re old enough that I would tell them that you feel obligated to help her, and I’d talk frankly about how Grandma loves them and wants to see them but also that she never accepted their brother.  And maybe her rejection of him was an attempt to spare you guys pain.  I think that’s probably the most charitable spin to put on it, but I mean, who argues for rejecting the sick child of a family member who died???  I think modeling that you aren’t rejecting her is reasonable.  But I also feel like your kids should get to decide whether they see her.  And if they choose not to, custody stuff is a good excuse not to take them.  

[kbutton]

Your kids' relationship with your mom isn't their relationship with their dad. Your relationship with your mom is not their relationship with their dad. Difficult situation + mental illness doesn't necessarily equal the same thing. Every situation is different. I think telling them that how you decide to handle your mom may or may not be the right way for them to handle things with their dad is okay. Their relationship with your mom--that's a generation removed, and I think you can let them decide how close to be with her and what they should find okay/not okay in their relationship with her (such as what to be upset about and what to let go).   

 

[Hilltopmom]

15 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Although I respect you taking on a child that was not yours that doesn’t magically translate to grandchild for your mom. I thought that the other day about the portraits.

 

If you adopt a child, then, yes- it’s another grandchild for your parent. My adopted children are just as much grandchildren to my parents as my bio kids. Full stop.

Now some grandparents might not have wanted you to adopt, but that’s a different issue. All of our children are their grandchildren.

[Scarlett]

6 minutes ago, Hilltopmom said:

If you adopt a child, then, yes- it’s another grandchild for your parent. My adopted children are just as much grandchildren to my parents as my bio kids. Full stop.

Now some grandparents might not have wanted you to adopt, but that’s a different issue. All of our children are their grandchildren.

Your mom may feel that way but not all do. It has more to do with relationships than it does legalities. 
It may hurt @Baseballandhockeybut it isn’t really a wrong choice. 

[Tanaqui]

2 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Your mom may feel that way but not all do. It has more to do with relationships than it does legalities. 
It may hurt @Baseballandhockeybut it isn’t really a wrong choice. 

She could have pretended. People do that all the time. She could have put up a portrait to make her daughter and her daughter's children happy, she could have sent over condolences for her daughter's loss, she could have kept her unsolicited opinions to herself.

She didn't have to think of this kid as her grandson, but she didn't have to act like this.

You want to talk about relationships rather than legalities? If you want to have a relationship with your daughter, you don't hurt the children she loves.

[wendyroo]

6 minutes ago, Hilltopmom said:

If you adopt a child, then, yes- it’s another grandchild for your parent. My adopted children are just as much grandchildren to my parents as my bio kids. Full stop.

Now some grandparents might not have wanted you to adopt, but that’s a different issue. All of our children are their grandchildren.

I agree.

I don't have any adopted children, but I have a biological child who dishes out boatloads of trouble and destruction and abuse...and my parents don't get to decide he isn't their grandchild. They could decide not to treat him as a grandchild, but he is their grandchild, and not treating him as such would reflect very poorly on them.

Grandparents don't get to opt out of grandchildren no matter how they enter the family. If I birthed another child or adopted a child or adopted a young adult or my brother unknowingly got a one night stand pregnant and she dropped the baby off on his doorstep out of the blue- all of those would equally be my parents' grandchildren...and in my family they would equally be treated as grandchildren.

[purpleowl]

19 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Your mom may feel that way but not all do. It has more to do with relationships than it does legalities. 
It may hurt @Baseballandhockeybut it isn’t really a wrong choice. 

Yes, it really is a wrong choice. 

[catz]

11 minutes ago, purpleowl said:

Yes, it really is a wrong choice. 

Absolutely.  Especially if you are expecting to have a loving or even cordial relationship with your adult child.  

You can do anything you want of course.  That doesn't mean you aren't going to suffer the consequences from that choice, possibly life-long consequences.  Being polite, inclusive and keeping your unsolicited opinions to yourself isn't that hard.  

[Scarlett]

It sounds like they did not have a great relationship before so I guess I am not surprised this us still an issue. 
 

None of us can force others to feel a certain way  about the people we love and usually faking it doesn’t work either. 
 

 

[Tanaqui]

Again, Scarlett, the trouble is not that she didn't feel a certain way about OP's child. The problem is that she didn't act a certain way towards her own daughter. You don't need to have any particular feelings to put up a picture. You don't need to have any particular feelings to buy a birthday present. You don't need to have any particular feelings to send a condolence card - and honestly, that is the bare minimum of civil behavior towards somebody you know who just lost somebody important to them.

It doesn't cost anything to pick up the phone, say "I'm sorry for your loss" and let your child cry at you, even if you personally don't care one whit. It doesn't cost more than a stamp to scrawl those words on a piece of paper and toss it in the mail. Oh, I suppose you pay for the paper and envelope, and the ink from the pen.

My mother died two weeks ago, and when I told the cashier at the corner store he said "I'm sorry for your loss" and comped me a free soda. He never even met my mother! I barely know him! But this near stranger managed to find a tiny amount of empathy for me, and that's little enough to ask.

Edited October 2, 2022 by Tanaqui

[Catwoman]

5 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

Again, Scarlett, the trouble is not that she didn't feel a certain way about OP's child. The problem is that she didn't act a certain way towards her own daughter. You don't need to have any particular feelings to put up a picture. You don't need to have any particular feelings to buy a birthday present. You don't need to have any particular feelings to send a condolence card - and honestly, that is the bare minimum of civil behavior towards somebody you know who just lost somebody important to them.

It doesn't cost anything to pick up the phone, say "I'm sorry for your loss" and let your child cry at you, even if you personally don't care one whit. It doesn't cost more than a stamp to scrawl those words on a piece of paper and toss it in the mail. Oh, I suppose you pay for the paper and envelope, and the ink from the pen.

My mother died two weeks ago, and when I told the cashier at the corner store he said "I'm sorry for your loss" and comped me a free soda. He never even met my mother! I barely know him! But this near stranger managed to find a tiny amount of empathy for me, and that's little enough to ask.

I'm so sorry to hear about your mom, Tanaqui. 😢

[Tanaqui]

Thanks. It sucks, but I'm playing a game called "no regrets", and the chief non-regret here is that at least she didn't particularly suffer in the process.

Speaking of my mother, she could be a difficult person, but I cannot imagine her acting in the described way towards me and my sister nor any child we cared about. I remember once, perhaps seven years ago, the younger kid's best friend came over wearing bedroom slippers because she had no shoes, and when my mother saw this she said "Oh, by the way, does anybody want to come with me to the craft store and help me schlep home art supplies?" and, in the process, bought her two new pairs of shoes and gave her a good meal. Because this child was important to her grandkid, and she needed shoes.

I don't want to take over this thread with that, so anybody who feels the same way, please just "like" Catwoman's comment.

[gardenmom5]

8 hours ago, scholastica said:

While this is a good way to approach healthy people, with an unhealthy person, one has to be prepared for it to lead to more hurt and to know in advance what one will do when they don’t react kindly. My person would tell me all the ways I am wrong for feeling hurt and how they were right all along because look how things are now. I choose to stay in relationship because the person is very damaged and it’s not their fault they are the way they are. I choose to have contact but know not to expect a normal relationship. 

This.
And I still have some contact with my brother-  but very stiff and very hard boundaries.  And I refuse to inflict him on anyone who doesn't want to have contact with him.  (or isn't able to defend themselves from him.)

7 hours ago, DawnM said:

You have been given good advice.   I allow my kids to interact with grandparents as much or little as they wish for the most part.   We don't have much of any relationship with DH's mom.   She has made it clear who her favorite children and grandchildren are, and we aren't them!  

I am so sorry you have to deal with all this stress.   You have done the right thing and seemingly been berated for it.....it isn't right.

Would it change if your kids were the favorites?

 

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

It sounds like they did not have a great relationship before so I guess I am not surprised this us still an issue. 
 

None of us can force others to feel a certain way  about the people we love and usually faking it doesn’t work either. 
 

 

We can expect family members to be *respectful*, even if they didn't like the FAMILY member who died.

My father died when I was 12 - i was *not allowed* to grieve in front of my maternal grandmother.  She didn't like him - the fact *her* 12 year old *granddaughter* was grieving - was irrelevant.

That's the type of treatment of OP's mom toward OP.  It says a lot about OPs mom - and nothing good.

[lauraw4321]

I think you have to focus on doing what will give you the least amount of regret. What amount of support / contact do you require to have a clear conscious that you did whatever you feel you owed to her. Does that level include your kids? Fast forward in your mind to her death. What level of support / relationship will allow you to leave her funeral without feeling like you violated your own values? I think that’s the best indicator of what you should do. 

[Scarlett]

9 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

We can expect family members to be *respectful*, even if they didn't like the FAMILY member who died.

My father died when I was 12 - i was *not allowed* to grieve in front of my maternal grandmother.  She didn't like him - the fact *her* 12 year old *granddaughter* was grieving - was irrelevant.

That's the type of treatment of OP's mom toward OP.  It says a lot about OPs mom - and nothing good.

I said nothing about not being respectful. 

[DawnM]

2 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

This.
And I still have some contact with my brother-  but very stiff and very hard boundaries.  And I refuse to inflict him on anyone who doesn't want to have contact with him.  (or isn't able to defend themselves from him.)

Would it change if your kids were the favorites?

 

If my children were asking to see Grandma because they loved going up to see her, that would change things.   

[Drama Llama]

44 minutes ago, DawnM said:

If my children were asking to see Grandma because they loved going up to see her, that would change things.   

I think, to be honest, if I asked them, my oldest would probably choose to spend the holiday with Grandma so as not to be with his Dad, who he is far angrier at, and his younger brother would probably be excited to fly on an airplane.  

[lmrich]

I am curious - you adopted your cousin's child? Was it her neice or nephew or was the baby your dad's 'blood  relative'? Could that be a part of a  problem? 

Regardless, if and when you are able to forgive, you will peace. The same goes for your kids. Forgiving someone allows you to have peace and contenment. And forgiving them does not mean you have to travel across the country to stay in a hotel. 

Do you talk to your brother, her favorite, to know why he is not around much?

[Drama Llama]

Just now, lmrich said:

I am curious - you adopted your cousin's child? Was it her neice or nephew or was the baby your dad's 'blood  relative'? Could that be a part of a  problem? 

His grandmother was my mother's first cousin.  So his mother was my second cousin.  There is a certain irony that the side of family that stood up for him is the one not related to him by blood.

Just now, lmrich said:

Regardless, if and when you are able to forgive, you will peace. The same goes for your kids. Forgiving someone allows you to have peace and contenment. And forgiving them does not mean you have to travel across the country to stay in a hotel. 

Do you talk to your brother, her favorite, to know why he is not around much?

My mom says he can't visit because he has a dog.  She tells me having a dog is a lot of work, so it's understandable that he wouldn't be able to return phone calls, so she doesn't call him because she's concerned he will feel guilty about not returning her phone calls.  When I pointed out that I also have a dog and two children, she replied that my dog is better behaved and thus easier.  Which, I admit, is probably true as his is still in the puppy stage.  However, I'm not 100% convinced that one puppy is more work than 2 human children and an elderly dog, to the degree that I can be expected to get on a plane, but it's unfair to expect him to return a phone call.

He did travel to her for Christmas last year, and I think plans to this Christmas.