Thanks

[Drama Llama]

.

Edited December 28, 2021 by Baseballandhockey

[Corraleno]

I don't think you did anything wrong. If you'd sent the email to everyone in the extended family excluding her family, she'd have been pissed off about that and claimed you excluded her on purpose.

ETA: you did not "deprive" her of the right to go to her own parish, her husband made that decision and that's between him and her. The fact that she would have preferred deceit — that her own husband be kept in the dark about safer options that were available, so she could have her own way even though it put GFIL at much greater risk — is her problem, not yours.

Edited December 24, 2021 by Corraleno

[Shoeless]

You didn't do anything wrong. Everyone here is an adult with free will.

Your SIL is a pill. 

[Ditto]

I fully support you and don't think you did anything wrong.    

[mom2scouts]

No, you weren't out of line. SIL is an adult. If she still wanted to go to her own parish, that was her decision to make with her husband. You offered her another, safer option, but she wasn't obligated to take it. If she's angry, she's probably more angry at herself. 

[freesia]

Her children could have gone to her parish. This is between her and her husband. 
 

You did nothing wrong. Your concern for GFIL was understandable. He and she did not have to attend the outdoor mass. She is clearly very jealous of you. 

With regard to your motivation— to me it seems motivated by the present pandemic but only you know why you did it. In this case, though, I don’t think it matters, because you did nothing wrong. 
 

I hope on a couple of months the two of you can have a good talk and work through some of your issues. You both are under a lot of stress right now.  Maybe look into Family Systems  theory at some point down the line. 

[catz]

I assume this is the same SIL that is generally unhinged and considers herself a victim on the regular?  No, you did nothing wrong.  You provided a safe alternative during a global pandemic.  Why isn't she mad at her husband?  That should have been for them to decide as a couple.  So weird.  They are 2 adults.  I'm sorry you have to deal with her drama on the regular.  And I agree as discussed before it seems like she has PPD or something, I had it for  LONG time very badly so I get it.  But someone needs to start calling her on some of these irrational thought processes.  

Can you come up with a pat answer so you can just walk away from this stuff?  "I'm sorry you feel that way.  I don't see it that way at all.  I was just sharing an alternative during a global pandemic."  Ugh, I totally get overthinking it and second guessing yourself if she is straight up accusing you of stuff.   I can see thinking if GFIL, that will be your responsibility and shoulders it is likely to fall upon,  so of course you want the safest option for him.  I agree she is jealous of your family for some reason.  She is definitely not thinking clearly.  

ETA can you imagine the kick back had you sent it to everyone in the family BUT that family?  Can't imagine that would have gone over very well either.  

Edited December 24, 2021 by FuzzyCatz

[Rosie_0801]

It really doesn't matter what your motivation was. 
Vulnerable people avoiding deadly diseases is supposed to come first.

She's a nutter and shouldn't be using you as her whipping boy.

[Drama Llama]

I am sure she has PPA, and she’s diagnosed and on meds.  

My general goal is to be as kind and understanding as it would be reasonable to expect, but not cave to totally unreasonable demands.  My guess is that “keep your church plans a secret from the people you live with” is in the latter category.

But I do think she also got angry with her husband over this, and honestly while I am a little relieved their kids are safer, I feel terrible for them to see this much conflict on Christmas Eve.

[Katy]

You did nothing wrong.  I’m starting to think her problem isn’t postpartum and is simply full blown narcissism.

[Dianthus]

How did it ruin her kids experience? Can't she still take her kids to the mass she planned?

Edited December 24, 2021 by Spirea

[Innisfree]

3 minutes ago, Spirea said:

How did it ruin her kids experience? Can't she still take her kids to the mass she planned?

The way I'm reading it, her husband is the BIL who preferred for his/their kids to attend the outdoor service.

[Innisfree]

@Baseballandhockey, I don't think you did anything wrong. You gave people information about a sensible alternative. They get to make their own decisions about it.

[gardenmom5]

I'm confused how these are related - you looked for a conveniently timed mass (I assume for you) and found one that was outdoors.  you let the rest of your family know that was an available option.   They were free to attend, or not.

Bless her heart, but your sil still could have attended the mass in her own parish.  

 

[gardenmom5]

34 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

It really doesn't matter what your motivation was. 
Vulnerable people avoiding deadly diseases is supposed to come first.

She's a nutter and shouldn't be using you as her whipping boy.

ikr? - oh, the humanity! 

[Spryte]

Oh for heaven’s sake, no, don’t feel guilty about helping people—any people—find an outdoor option with Omicron lurking in every indoor space!
 

(Ok, not “every” … being a bit hyperbolic tonight.)

[HS Mom in NC]

Stating where you're going and inviting anyone who would like to come along is polite and thoughtful. People are free to accept or decline and need to take ownership their decisions and how they arrived at them . She's redirecting her frustration with her husband at you for no good reason. She also seems to personalize the general by suggesting you've intentionally denied her children an opportunity, which is remarkably self-centered thinking. She has a lot of growing up to do. Seriously, her behavior reads like middle school drama at best and mental illness at worst. It's not your job to raise or manage her issues.  All of this is between SIL and her husband.

I had a (now former) SIL with some similar thought and behavior patterns that got worse over time. There were severe mental health issues brewing that were harder to see from the sidelines and she manipulated and dominated her spouse into silence about the abuse. You may want to consider limiting contact with her to short and sweet gatherings to minimize family dynamic damage, letting her husband know you support him, and keeping a way of contact with her kids for support should they choose to limit or end contact with her and/or their father in the future.  We did that with former SIL until we became aware of abuse, and then insisted on licensed counseling.   I'm the only one one of former SIL kids maintains much contact with in the family. She has no contact with her mother (former SIL) and very limited contact with her father (oldest step-brother) because he failed to intervene appropriately as they were growing up.

[regentrude]

You didn't do anything wrong. You found a great, pandemic safe, option and invited others. That's the kind, responsible,  inclusive thing to do.

In a functional family, people would be aware that they can exercise their own free will to participate or not. You cannot "make" another person do anything. They had the opportunity to choose attending the germ infested, less safe, indoor option. You aren't to blame that they decided otherwise. 

 

 

Edited December 24, 2021 by regentrude

[happi duck]

I don't think you did anything wrong.  (And outdoor is so much better!)

However, I can imagine that if I were in a fragile state that it would feel like the rug was pulled out from under me and my ability to plan something for my family was being questioned.

Edited December 24, 2021 by happi duck

[Tanaqui]

Let's say that you really harbored evil intent as you sent this email. You secretly wanted to disrupt SIL's plans, and you maliciously sent it out because you just can't stand her kids getting the attention.

So what?

Seriously, so freaking what? You didn't force her husband to decide to go to this outdoor mass and, additionally, you haven't harmed anybody. Her children are not being deprived by going to this mass instead of the one she wanted to go to. Also, both you and your BIL have the right to talk to other people.

She needs to get over herself.

[Carol in Cal.]

Whether your motivation was good or bad is between you and God.  Maybe a little of both?

But objectively, what you did was helpful and not wrong.

And your SIL is crazily self-centered.  

Re. how to respond--I don't think I would.  The accusation is nuts, and honoring it with argumentation would be in the somewhat nutsy category.  

If I answered it at all, my response would be along the lines of "I'm sure you don't mean this on reflection.  Have a great day."

[Murphy101]

You do not need her permission to talk to your own brother.  If she couldn’t talk to him herself about her opinion or win that argument - that’s on her.

[Miss Tick]

What you did was fine. If you hadn't included her family in the email that would have been "leaving them out" and they "wouldn't have been able to join everyone" and since GFIL went with you you would have "jealously ensured he spent the service with your kids"

You probably already recognize that this is a relationship that will never be "fixed". It happens. You generally seem to do a good job if giving her as much distance as possible, keep that up. 

[Clarita]

What you did is fine, it doesn't even matter your intent. In a normal functioning family SIL and your brother would have talked about it amoungst themselves and figured it out themselves. While some anger might have happened between them for a short time in the long term at most the feelings would be disappointment and blame put squarely on a global pandemic.

[EKS]

I don't know anything about church/religious dynamics, but my opinion is that covid stole whatever opportunities your SIL thinks were stolen.  You were just the messenger, telling everyone about a covid-sane option.

[mathnerd]

You are very sweet to be so caring and concerned about your GFIL. What you did is what any nice, caring, sane and proactive person would do in a raging pandemic. It is the right thing to do to go looking for a safer alternative and to let everyone know that they don't have to sit in a germy room breathing germs during a pandemic.

What I think is going on (with or without the PPD factored in) is that your ability to shoulder so much in your life and your inventiveness in finding options for everything related to the safety of your family is making her question her own abilities and judgements and she is jealous of you for those qualities and resents that you always have solutions (or she looks at things that way, anyway). It is best to ignore her tantrums and keep the relationship superficial with her. And, please do not feel guilty for doing what you did - you probably saved someone in your family from serious disease.

[kristin0713]

You did absolutely NOTHING wrong. Any disagreements between SIL and her husband are not your fault or your responsibility. 

[Drama Llama]

5 hours ago, Katy said:

You did nothing wrong.  I’m starting to think her problem isn’t postpartum and is simply full blown narcissism.

Wouldn't I have know that before now though? 

I mean, she's always been a little self-centered, but it seems like this has gotten worse since she got pregnant?  

Could she have been a narcissist and I just missed it because she lived far away, and then when she moved here I was distracted?  

[Drama Llama]

1 hour ago, mathnerd said:

You are very sweet to be so caring and concerned about your GFIL. What you did is what any nice, caring, sane and proactive person would do in a raging pandemic. It is the right thing to do to go looking for a safer alternative and to let everyone know that they don't have to sit in a germy room breathing germs during a pandemic.

What I think is going on (with or without the PPD factored in) is that your ability to shoulder so much in your life and your inventiveness in finding options for everything related to the safety of your family is making her question her own abilities and judgements and she is jealous of you for those qualities and resents that you always have solutions (or she looks at things that way, anyway). It is best to ignore her tantrums and keep the relationship superficial with her. And, please do not feel guilty for doing what you did - you probably saved someone in your family from serious disease.

To be clear, my intention in sending the email was not to change GFIL's plans.  I know that if he promised her he'd go to church with her and her children, he would have gone.  He likely would have gone with us too.  He likes church, he missed it so much during the pandemic, so he would have happily gone twice. 

My intention was to invite DH's other siblings, and to let my FIL and GFIL and DH and kids know the plan.  Strangely, neither of DH's other siblings accused me of "talking to their spouses" by including them on the email.

[Drama Llama]

4 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

You do not need her permission to talk to your own brother.  If she couldn’t talk to him herself about her opinion or win that argument - that’s on her.

To be clear, he's not my brother.  He's my husband's sister's husband.  

If I had called him to talk about plans for mass that would be weird, because he doesn't go to mass.  So, calling him to make plans for going to mass would be like if I called him to plan a girls' trip to the spa with his wife.  But I didn't do that.  I sent an email to the email list I have that has the entire family.  The one I'd use to send out a cute picture, or to take a poll on whether we want roast beef or steaks for Christmas.  

[Shoeless]

8 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

Wouldn't I have know that before now though? 

Not necessarily. I underestimated my inlaw's bipolar disorder until we moved near them. Distance makes it easier to hide these sorts of things.

[Shoeless]

Seriously, you did nothing wrong. She's got issues, and none of them are caused by you or your kids. 

[Katy]

36 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

Wouldn't I have know that before now though? 

I mean, she's always been a little self-centered, but it seems like this has gotten worse since she got pregnant?  

Could she have been a narcissist and I just missed it because she lived far away, and then when she moved here I was distracted?  

Yes, you could have absolutely missed it because she was far away and you were distracted.

[Catwoman]

26 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

Seriously, you did nothing wrong. She's got issues, and none of them are caused by you or your kids. 

I agree.

Don't keep overthinking this. 

You did nothing wrong. You have nothing to apologize for. You have enough on your plate; you don't need to deal with anyone else's drama, so put this out of your mind and don't give it another thought.

[Harriet Vane]

Agreeing with the others. You did nothing wrong. Actually, you did right. Sil is crazy. Don’t feed her frenzy with discussions or elaborate explanations.

[Murphy101]

54 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

To be clear, he's not my brother.  He's my husband's sister's husband.  

If I had called him to talk about plans for mass that would be weird, because he doesn't go to mass.  So, calling him to make plans for going to mass would be like if I called him to plan a girls' trip to the spa with his wife.  But I didn't do that.  I sent an email to the email list I have that has the entire family.  The one I'd use to send out a cute picture, or to take a poll on whether we want roast beef or steaks for Christmas.  

Meh. Same difference. You were speaking to the entire family, of which he is part of. You don’t need permission to talk to the family about a possible family gathering.  You weren’t asking her and only her a specific question that only had to do with her.  If her husband and her disagreed, that’s between them. 

[Rosie_0801]

1 hour ago, Baseballandhockey said:

Wouldn't I have know that before now though? 

I mean, she's always been a little self-centered, but it seems like this has gotten worse since she got pregnant?  

Could she have been a narcissist and I just missed it because she lived far away, and then when she moved here I was distracted?  

I've been blindsided twice and that was with people I'd lived with for a decade or more.
One got worse as they got older. The other was pretty much normal until they weren't, then hoo boy...

[Moonhawk]

The fact that she hurt you, probably intentionally, and now is projecting that you shared an outdoor Mass with the family to get back at her, it shows she is grasping at straws to justify her jealousy/anger/emotions. She wanted to get a rise out of you and you didn't oblige, so she has to make it seem like you did anyway to continue her narrative. You could have hired Santa himself to surprise all the kids and you would have "ruined Christmas." You could have stayed in bed all day and eaten bon bons and somehow you would have "ruined Christmas."

It has nothing to do with what you actually did, or what your intentions are, and this is out of your control. Let it go. I don't read that you did it out of malice. If this is the best you can do for revenge, helping others find safe ways to participate at Mass for Christmas, I think you can indulge in your ruinous activities, lol. 

[1234]

5 minutes ago, Moonhawk said:

The fact that she hurt you, probably intentionally, and now is projecting that you shared an outdoor Mass with the family to get back at her, it shows she is grasping at straws to justify her jealousy/anger/emotions. She wanted to get a rise out of you and you didn't oblige, so she has to make it seem like you did anyway to continue her narrative. You could have hired Santa himself to surprise all the kids and you would have "ruined Christmas." You could have stayed in bed all day and eaten bon bons and somehow you would have "ruined Christmas."

It has nothing to do with what you actually did, or what your intentions are, and this is out of your control. Let it go. I don't read that you did it out of malice. If this is the best you can do for revenge, helping others find safe ways to participate at Mass for Christmas, I think you can indulge in your ruinous activities, lol. 

Yes! Earlier this year, my sister hurt me (probably intentionally) and I finally called her out on it. She immediately tried to flip it around on me and my family and now there is zero relationship. She is still playing the victim and I realized I just don’t care anymore. It’s sad but I know it’s nothing I actually did. 

[HS Mom in NC]

Yes, you'd be amazed what can be masked.  The only reason I found out about SIL was by specifically asking her husband, my step-brother, if everything was OK after SIL sat in the middle of our campsite in lotus position and looked into the sky shouting, "Thank you!" a few times over a weekend. No, everything was not OK. There was severe mental illness going on.

You thoughtfully invited everyone on the group email.  Everyone but her was reasonable while she was her nutty self.  Shrug. Crazy's gonna crazy. I know, I've seen 'em do it.

Stop. It's time to pivot.   Avoid getting sucked into her drama by detaching.  Get your mind focused on something other than SIL and her drama. This isn't your problem to solve or your mystery to figure out.

[katilac]

Knowing that perceived favoritism is a sore point, I probably would not have sent an invitation to a different service when he had already agreed to go with them. I would have made him aware of it, and he could have brought it up with them if he wished. If they had agreed and then invited us, I would have gone. Otherwise, if my thoughts stayed ahead of my actions, I would have given him the pertinent info and stuck to my original plans of streaming. 

Yes, I think an outdoor mass would be a better idea, but staying home would be an even better idea . . . reasonable people can draw the line in different places. You wouldn't do an indoor mass, and I wouldn't do an outdoor mass. 

Do I nonetheless think she had an unreasonable reaction? Yes. 

Do I think it's very hard to be reasonable when you feel like your kids are being slighted? Also yes. 

Every family has hot-button issues, so this could have turned into a thing in a 'functional' family for sure. But I also think the extended family as a whole potentially has some variation of enmeshment going on, and that's worth a thought or two in the new year. 

For now, I hope the holiday spirit prevails and you all have a wonderful time tomorrow. 

 

[Melissa Louise]

Ugh. SeaConquest pointed out to me a while ago that language like 'crazy' and 'nutty' are super ableist, and she's right. They are. Very jarring to read. 

OP, you did nothing wrong, though, I'm sure, like all of us, you too can have mixed motivations.

You don't actually need us all to jump in and reassure you that you're right and she is wrong though. I think it would be good for you to try to grey out your responses to SIL Just...less response. It doesn't matter, really. You and she aren't in any competition. 

 

 

 

 

[Drama Llama]

1 minute ago, katilac said:

Knowing that perceived favoritism is a sore point, I probably would not have sent an invitation to a different service when he had already agreed to go with them. I would have made him aware of it, and he could have brought it up with them if he wished.

 

I don't know who "him" is.  

Her DH?

[katilac]

1 minute ago, Baseballandhockey said:

I don't know who "him" is.  

Her DH?

No, GFIL. I was trying to be vague bc I know you plan to delete. 

[Drama Llama]

24 minutes ago, katilac said:

No, GFIL. I was trying to be vague bc I know you plan to delete. 

Oh, but I didn't send it to him.   He doesn't email.  

My intention was never to stop him from going.    He never would have backed out once he told his great grandchildren he'd go to church with them.  When she changed their plans, he did too. 

ETA:  Just to be clear.  I would have invited him verbally.  My thought was that he might come to both.  He really loves going to church with family and the services didn't conflict.  

Edited December 25, 2021 by Baseballandhockey

[fraidycat]

This has been said ad nauseum at this point, but you did nothing wrong and you weren't even looking for a way to interrupt her plans. You were researching YOUR plans, saw a new option that wasn't previously available and shared it.

As for not seeing narcisissm - oooh boy, that is 100% possible. I was not the direct target of a recent narcissistic meltdown, but I was a bystander who happened to catch a little schrapnel and a front row view. The narc completely blew their carefully constructed facade to smithereens within a matter of about 12 hours. It was Jekyll & Hyde in living color and a bit of an I wouldn't believe it if I hadn't witnessed it with my own eyes and ears type of thing. It was messy.

That said, I have a family member who plays a professional "victim" within the family and perceives favoritism where none exists all the time (happened tonight actually - over seafood dip 🙄). This person is not a narc, but is definitely suffering from some pretty severe (untreated) anxiety and depression that manifests as bitterness and anger. The antics that you've shared about your SIL remind me very much of this person like two peas in a pod.

[Drama Llama]

6 hours ago, fraidycat said:

This has been said ad nauseum at this point, but you did nothing wrong and you weren't even looking for a way to interrupt her plans. You were researching YOUR plans, saw a new option that wasn't previously available and shared it.

As for not seeing narcisissm - oooh boy, that is 100% possible. I was not the direct target of a recent narcissistic meltdown, but I was a bystander who happened to catch a little schrapnel and a front row view. The narc completely blew their carefully constructed facade to smithereens within a matter of about 12 hours. It was Jekyll & Hyde in living color and a bit of an I wouldn't believe it if I hadn't witnessed it with my own eyes and ears type of thing. It was messy.

That said, I have a family member who plays a professional "victim" within the family and perceives favoritism where none exists all the time (happened tonight actually - over seafood dip 🙄). This person is not a narc, but is definitely suffering from some pretty severe (untreated) anxiety and depression that manifests as bitterness and anger. The antics that you've shared about your SIL remind me very much of this person like two peas in a pod.

To me the second person sounds like her.  She is definitely anxious about being unloved or her kids being unloved or her kids not “winning” at the game of life.  

I guess part of my problem is that I don’t understand how believing it to be narcissism vs PPA changes my response.  Does it matter?  I live in her father’s house, so I can’t just disinvite her.  Plus I love her kids.

[SKL]

I think your SIL is reacting illogically.  I think you just provided information that was good to know.  Other adults are free to make their own decisions.

The fact that you are wondering if your anger influenced it means maybe it did, but so what?  It wasn't wrong IMO.

[regentrude]

38 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

I guess part of my problem is that I don’t understand how believing it to be narcissism vs PPA changes my response.  Does it matter?  

It doesn't matter. You might be happier if you try to disengage from the interactions with her, both literally (i.e. don’t respond unless really necessary) and emotionally. 

You're not going to change her, and you're not responsible for her happiness. The end.

EtA: mental illness doesn't give a person license to treat others poorly. It may explain things, but it doesn't mean the other people have to like the behavior or cater to that person's whims. 

Edited December 25, 2021 by regentrude

[Drama Llama]

To be fair to her, I wouldn’t be happy today no matter what.  I am almost certainly using my frustration with her to distract me from my grief.  

And I don’t engage with her, unless she forces it, I save it all and rant about it here.