I’m so angry right now at someone who won’t vaccinate

[Ginevra]

VENT ALERT AHEAD AND JUST AGREE WITH ME
 

I’m sure you can guess who I’m talking about without mentioning names. 
Had a major argument because This Person is going to be visiting mom in January. I pointed out that if the person wants to be almost certain they will not bring Covid down to 95yo mom with CHF, now is the time to get vaxxed so person will be through the six weeks by January. 
 

Well, This Person is committed to the belief that their “natural immunity” is “20 times more protective than the vaccine.” And other related fairy tales. 
 

I used the what-if-you’re-wrong counter. Person just simply will not believe it could possibly matter. I just wonder who the eff has to die or have severe complications before they realize they don’t want to be part of that chain that kills or harms someone. 
 

This Person also does NOT understand that not everyone who dies is an 80+ sickly person. He still believes the stupid “with” Covid thing and thinks that’s an adequate explanation for three-quarters of a million American deaths. 
 

I’m so angry right now. WHAT DOES IT TAKE?! Who has to die before someone rethinks what they’ve been buying? 
 

I do think that now This Person will never get vaccinated. That whole ego thing. He’s now never going to say, “I thought about what you said and realized it’s better to be safe than sorry.” So he will never get vaccinated now and I’m never bringing it up again.  I really just feel like eff you, then; I just hope he doesn’t find out he’s wrong the hard way because I don’t think he could go on living if that happened. 

[prairiewindmomma]

Hugs, Quill.

[regentrude]

So sorry. That sucks.

Will the person at least quarantine and mask before the visit?

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, regentrude said:

So sorry. That sucks.

Will the person at least quarantine and mask before the visit?

This person says they will test before the visit. Some masking is still required here and there is compliance in those cases, but not ever voluntary masking AFAIK. 
 

Im really pretty doubtful they will even bother with a test, though; they just think saying that will give them a pass. 

[regentrude]

1 minute ago, Quill said:

This person says they will test before the visit. Some masking is still required here and there is compliance in those cases, but not ever voluntary masking AFAIK. 
 

Im really pretty doubtful they will even bother with a test, though; they just think saying that will give them a pass. 

And mom isn't going to refuse the visit, I'm afraid?

[TheReader]

I'm so sorry. 

I have some folks like that too. it sucks. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, regentrude said:

And mom isn't going to refuse the visit, I'm afraid?

No but I thought I might have an ally in a sister, who caretakes mom. I know she is fully vaccinated and she also has an equally dominate personality to the person’s. She she probably could be relied upon to at least require a negative test. 

[Spryte]

I’m so, so sorry. I hope the testing can happen, at least.

I don’t know about your Person, but the people that I know who have refused to vaccinate so far have taken “anti-vaccine” on as a part of their identity at this point. I’m not sure that they will ever, ever be able to move past that. They would need a way to save face, somehow. They’d possibly need something entirely new, a different vaccine, maybe, or something that has a completely different feel to it. I feel pretty hopeless about it, at this point.

[SKL]

Does he have any reason other than "why should I"?  Like is there a reason the vax is contraindicated for him?

I do think it's good if he tests before he visits.  That, along with his past infection, should make the risk pretty low.

Also, even one shot would be helpful if he doesn't want to do the whole series.  So there is still time for him to possibly change his mind.

I have people like this also ... we don't discuss it ... but I don't live with them.

[mommyoffive]

OH man that is so hard.  I am sorry.  I just don't get their thoughts and I am so beyond upset at people who won't vaccinate. 

[Indigo Blue]

So sorry, Quill.

[JustEm]

I am sorry you are dealing with that. That type of stubbornness would be a deal breaker for me. 

Are you going on this visit to mom too? Because in your shoes if that was the plan, I would simply not go. I would state that I will not be a part of you putting your ego above loved one's safety.

We are having Thanksgiving here on Sunday and I had to not invite 3 relatives who although they may have antibodies they haven't tested to confirm it and they don't mask or vaccinate. I simply have no more shits to give about people who don't care about other people.

[Katy]

I’m sorry.

[Scarlett]

My DIL's dad got the vaccine without his wife's knowledge.  She is very against it and I guess she thought he was too....but one of his co-worker's daughters ( a young mother of 4 children) got  Covid and died after a long hospital stay.  That really shook him and he went and got vaccinated.  Anyway, he kept it from his wife until he was having surgery and at some point one of the HCWs mentioned it in front of her.  She LEFT the hospital and went home and said she wasn't coming back.  I think she did pick him up when he was discharged but my DIL had to go care for him during the rest of his stay because his wife was so angry that he had been vaccinated.

The point to my t/j is that this mess is really driving wedges between people.  I hate it....but honestly these anti-vaxers are not rational imo.  

So I am sorry Quill....I don't know how I would deal with that if I were in your shoes.  😞

[Harriet Vane]

Ugh

So sorry, Quill.

I have someone in my life that I care about (thankfully not in my household) who is rabidly anti-vax and anti-covid. Her behavior has been awful and her words have been really mean. It sucks. I get it.

[Pam in CT]

(( quill ))

I agree with you.

 

Hopefully the person's sister does as well.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Spryte said:

I’m so, so sorry. I hope the testing can happen, at least.

I don’t know about your Person, but the people that I know who have refused to vaccinate so far have taken “anti-vaccine” on as a part of their identity at this point. I’m not sure that they will ever, ever be able to move past that. They would need a way to save face, somehow. They’d possibly need something entirely new, a different vaccine, maybe, or something that has a completely different feel to it. I feel pretty hopeless about it, at this point.

That is all accurate. 
There is “It’s a new vaccine; it’s too recent.” 
There is “It’s all just a money-making scheme, that’s why research into natural immunity is not happening.” 
There is “it’s practically over anyway.” 
And all the other worldview things you’ve already heard, which ironically is the person believing they are not mainstream and thinking they “do their own research”. 

 

1 hour ago, SKL said:

Does he have any reason other than "why should I"?  Like is there a reason the vax is contraindicated for him?

I do think it's good if he tests before he visits.  That, along with his past infection, should make the risk pretty low.

Also, even one shot would be helpful if he doesn't want to do the whole series.  So there is still time for him to possibly change his mind.

I have people like this also ... we don't discuss it ... but I don't live with them.

No contraindications, and he has been vaccinated with all other standard vaccinations required in childhood, plus Tetanus as an adult. 

[MooCow]

Could this person secretly believe that the vaccination is not what it claims to be?

[chiguirre]

I'm sorry Quill, that's so hard. If it makes you feel better, January is still a long ways off and things can change in the meantime.

We're probably looking at another huge wave of Covid peaking after the holidays and that will make everyone (even the stubbornest anti-vaxxers) more aware of the risks. The situation in Europe is looking grim and their vaccination numbers are better than ours. They're probably going to lock down again. We won't do that, but I think masking and testing will become less stigmatized as the numbers soar in the northern states.

 

ETA: We were posting at the same time. The whole "it's practically over" argument is going to be blown out of the water very shortly. Hopefully that will change his view about visiting without testing even is vaccination is off the table.

Edited November 19, 2021 by chiguirre

[Guest]

54 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

I am sorry you are dealing with that. That type of stubbornness would be a deal breaker for me. 

Are you going on this visit to mom too? Because in your shoes if that was the plan, I would simply not go. I would state that I will not be a part of you putting your ego above loved one's safety.

We are having Thanksgiving here on Sunday and I had to not invite 3 relatives who although they may have antibodies they haven't tested to confirm it and they don't mask or vaccinate. I simply have no more shits to give about people who don't care about other people.

I am invited too but was unsure whether I could get a couple days off work or not. So my participation is not certain anyway. But yeah I could say that; that I won’t go if he does not know he is not carrying Covid. That I will not participate. 
 

He has already missed out on something that should have been important to him due to no vax proof. It was a college thing for kiddo. The college does not permit anyone on campus without proof of vax or negative test. So we left his stubborn ass home. 

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, MooCow said:

Could this person secretly believe that the vaccination is not what it claims to be?

You mean like Q sort of stuff? I don’t think that is the case. 
 

In the Psychology of Pandemics book, the author talks about “monitors” and “blunters.” I’m definitely more in the monitor category; he is more the blunter. Blunters are more likely to minimize the risk, dismiss the concerns, etc. So I very much see that mindset there. 

[MercyA]

My best friend and other close acquaintances are just like this. I have come to believe that nothing short of divine intervention can change their minds at this point. 

Huge hugs to you. ❤️

[WildflowerMom]

Well, I think you know this already, but the boat I'm in and the boat you're in are similar.    I do feel I am starting to reach him biblically, so I'm holding out hope.   Is that an option for your person?   Is he religious at all?     Did you say the elderly person is vaxxed?  Is he close to this elderly person enough where you might could say something along the lines of, 'she cared enough to protect her people, but you obviously don't feel the same way for her?'   I'm all for guilt.   🤷🏻‍♀️

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

Well, I think you know this already, but the boat I'm in and the boat you're in are similar.    I do feel I am starting to reach him biblically, so I'm holding out hope.   Is that an option for your person?   Is he religious at all?     Did you say the elderly person is vaxxed?  Is he close to this elderly person enough where you might could say something along the lines of, 'she cared enough to protect her people, but you obviously don't feel the same way for her?'   I'm all for guilt.   🤷🏻‍♀️

My person is not religious at all, except perhaps as a veneer of social acceptability. You know, Christmas and Easter Christians type. 
 

Elderly person is vaxxed and boostered; sister who cares for her is too. I did point that out: “Sister thought it was important enough to get vaxxed, even though mom is too.” 

[ktgrok]

Would it matter if instead of disagreeing with him directly, it was more of a "you are probably right, it may not help, but since it will put Mom and sister's mind at ease, and they don't need more stress right now, would you be willing to make that sacrifice, for them? And who knows, maybe it will help...but if not, it will make everyone less tense. I know you work hard to take care of your family, making a lot of sacrifices, so maybe this is just one more? 

[SKL]

Yeah, to be honest I am in the "why not do it for the weaker people" camp.  "You aren't afraid of the shot, are you?"

I am heartened to know that his mom has had her vaxes and boosters.  Between that and your Person's natural immunity and a negative test, hopefully it will all work out.

I do think that if you feel this strongly about it ... well, if I were you, I would not go with him if he won't at least get 1 shot before seeing his mom.

[marbel]

So has this person thought through the implications of future relationships with people? I'm thinking specifically about missing a college thing due to vax status. That's the kind of thing that causes old people to end up wondering why their kids never call. I know this post is not about that, but is it possible that appealing to the person's relationship desires may sway him?

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, marbel said:

So has this person thought through the implications of future relationships with people? I'm thinking specifically about missing a college thing due to vax status. That's the kind of thing that causes old people to end up wondering why their kids never call. I know this post is not about that, but is it possible that appealing to the person's relationship desires may sway him?

I have pointed that out because other kiddo is in the final year of college and *If* these requirements are still in place when graduation rolls around… will he really not see his son graduate so he can avoid the vax? I have floated this in the past but it’s far enough into the future that that argument isn’t paramount now. 
 

I did also point out that if he had a Covid + before dd’s wedding, how would he feel about *that*? It didn’t make a difference to his thinking. 

[kbutton]

35 minutes ago, marbel said:

So has this person thought through the implications of future relationships with people? I'm thinking specifically about missing a college thing due to vax status. That's the kind of thing that causes old people to end up wondering why their kids never call. I know this post is not about that, but is it possible that appealing to the person's relationship desires may sway him?

I think this goes both ways--people will say things like, "Will you really sever our family relationships because I won't vaccinate?" They believe the vaccinators are the antagonists because we could choose to come over to their side. 

There is no winning in this. 

[prairiewindmomma]

IME, rational engagement isn't going to go anywhere with family member.  Here, with people in my circle, showing judgment about their decision puts them into defensive mode and logic shuts down.  It's an irrational emotional response and when mirroring with similar emotional appeals doesn't work, I know that they are in defense mode and nothing gets through.

FWIW, if I were to point you in a direction, I would have you look at:

1. 

2. take a bit of wisdom from research about pathological demand avoidance---which says that fundamentally refusing to do something can point out that there is a bit of anxiety there--and realize that the man mentioned above is all about drumming up fear in general, and then denying other things (which should be fear generating) aren't really issues.  If a disease isn't real, then it can't really harm you, even though you read in the paper that people are dying and it's a big enough deal that the government is asking you to mask, vaccinate, etc. You protect yourself from that fear by denying that the disease is real.

I'm going to step back into just JAWM mode, and say that's dang annoying and I'm sorry you have to deal with that. It would frustrate me to no end. I'm just sharing the above because that's how I deal with the annoyance and still try to have these people in my life on some level. 

Edited November 20, 2021 by desertflower
Political. It may be hard to talk about this without getting touching on politics, but let’s try.

[JennyD]

Quill, so sorry that you are (still!) dealing with this.

3 hours ago, Spryte said:

They would need a way to save face, somehow. They’d possibly need something entirely new, a different vaccine, maybe, or something that has a completely different feel to it. 

I have been thinking about this, too.  I saw the news earlier this week that Novavax may be approved soon --- maybe it will give some people a way out.

3 hours ago, Scarlett said:

My DIL's dad got the vaccine without his wife's knowledge.  She is very against it and I guess she thought he was too....but one of his co-worker's daughters ( a young mother of 4 children) got  Covid and died after a long hospital stay.  That really shook him and he went and got vaccinated. 

BIL was stunned to discover that a friend of his -- in his 50s with 3 children -- is unvaxxed, and in fact he and his wife are adamantly antivax.   BIL talked a while with him about it and said that the one thing that seemed to land was that the father of a friend of my son -- also in his early 50s with 3 children -- recently died of Covid after a month in the ICU, leaving his family in very serious financial straits.  

[Guest]

1 hour ago, JennyD said:

Quill, so sorry that you are (still!) dealing with this.

I have been thinking about this, too.  I saw the news earlier this week that Novavax may be approved soon --- maybe it will give some people a way out.

BIL was stunned to discover that a friend of his -- in his 50s with 3 children -- is unvaxxed, and in fact he and his wife are adamantly antivax.   BIL talked a while with him about it and said that the one thing that seemed to land was that the father of a friend of my son -- also in his early 50s with 3 children -- recently died of Covid after a month in the ICU, leaving his family in very serious financial straits.  

Two things I thought would land which don’t seem to: our client who was the same age with three kids who died OF Covid. Needlessly died because, I guess, she didn’t think she was at risk as a relatively young and otherwise healthy person. 
 

Or: his cousin, who only saw her mom (his aunt) twice in hospital, because the cousin was Covid + and un vaxxed and so could only come twice, five days apart. I pointed out that if his mom goes into the hospital for any reason, he will be in that same boat. He will be no help because he won’t be able to go to the hospital at will. 

[Melissa Louise]

Oh, that's tough. He may get push back from his kids if he continues to be excluded from campus events? 

I don't think you can do anything to change his mind. He's entrenched.

100% this is personality + media consumed. 

I agree with you he is being stubborn and careless, and your feelings of frustration are beyond valid. 

 

[SoCal_Bear]

I know it won't be perfect, but do you think it might help for you to send home test kits to your mom's house and have them test every day or whatever frequency you like? 

I've been using the Air Tamer that is also sold by Sharper Image whenever we are out and about in enclosed spaces with people who aren't masking or unknown status. If you live in CA, they won't ship here, but it is on Amazon.

((HUGS))

[bookbard]

Totally get it. Fortunately here employment mandates have made a massive difference because the people in question haven't had to 'choose' really - they just have to do it, grumbling or otherwise. I agree there is no logic and no way to 'argue' them around, at all. It's 100% emotion. My person missed their first appointment and I had a massive anxiety attack and ended up breaking a tooth - I hadn't realised just how stressed I was about the whole thing. Thankfully it's done now . . . till the time for boosters next year. 

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, calbear said:

I know it won't be perfect, but do you think it might help for you to send home test kits to your mom's house and have them test every day or whatever frequency you like? 

I've been using the Air Tamer that is also sold by Sharper Image whenever we are out and about in enclosed spaces with people who aren't masking or unknown status. If you live in CA, they won't ship here, but it is on Amazon.

((HUGS))

The home test kits are a good idea, although really at the moment I’m so done with it I feel like I don’t care; lie in whatever bed you’ve made. But if I have a change of heart before Jan, I might give that a go. 
 

I did just order a large room air purifier to have here for Thanksgiving, though I don’t really worry about Covid for thanksgiving because the person is literally the only un vaxxed one who will be there. Still…purer air seems like a good idea any time. 

[bookbard]

An excellent article this morning - not 100% relevant to your situation but ends with a great quote. How do you argue with anti-vaxxers who believe they’re on a noble mission? | Myke Bartlett | The Guardian

This is a lesson most parents learn eventually. You can tell your kid there’s no monster under the bed, but you can’t stop them feeling like there is.

All you can do is turn on the light, let them do the work and hope they eventually come to the right conclusion.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, bookbard said:

An excellent article this morning - not 100% relevant to your situation but ends with a great quote. How do you argue with anti-vaxxers who believe they’re on a noble mission? | Myke Bartlett | The Guardian

This is a lesson most parents learn eventually. You can tell your kid there’s no monster under the bed, but you can’t stop them feeling like there is.

All you can do is turn on the light, let them do the work and hope they eventually come to the right conclusion.

Well I think he has a sleep mask on so it doesn’t matter how many lights I turn on. 

[JumpyTheFrog]

8 hours ago, Quill said:

In the Psychology of Pandemics book, the author talks about “monitors” and “blunters.” I’m definitely more in the monitor category; he is more the blunter. Blunters are more likely to minimize the risk, dismiss the concerns, etc. So I very much see that mindset there. 

Can you tell us more about Blunters? It sounds like I have one in my household. I don't think anything short of an immediate family member ending up in the hospital will get through to this person. It doesn't help that this person's dad is even worse, still spouting that "It's just the flu!"

ETA: This person also refuses to mask unless at a medical facility. This person also won't make the unvaccinated kids mask where required (except for medical facilities), which forces me to feel stuck picking battles about when to make them do it.

ETA2: Person's dad was also diagnosed with (very treatable) prostate cancer recently. I suggested getting vaccinated to help protect his dad. Person responded that since the dad didn't care to get vaccinated, why do it to protect him? Suggesting vaccination to help protect my vaccinated, very obese, diabetic dad was also not received well.

Edited November 20, 2021 by JumpyTheFrog

[Guest]

Jumpy, here is an excerpt from the book, The Psychology of Pandemics…I think the author is Steven Taylor? I’ll have to verify that for correct attribution:

Both styles have their shortcomings as coping strategies. Although blunting is generally associated with less health-related worry and distress, blunters are at risk for ignoring important health-related threats and failing to take precautionary measures (Miller, 1996). Monitors, compared to blunters, tend to perceive a given health threat as riskier and more dangerous and tend to be more vulnerable to everyday stress, especially when they perceive that their health is threatened (Miller et al., 2005).

 

 

[JumpyTheFrog]

8 minutes ago, Quill said:

Jumpy, here is an excerpt from the book, The Psychology of Pandemics…I think the author is Steven Taylor? I’ll have to verify that for correct attribution:

Both styles have their shortcomings as coping strategies. Although blunting is generally associated with less health-related worry and distress, blunters are at risk for ignoring important health-related threats and failing to take precautionary measures (Miller, 1996). Monitors, compared to blunters, tend to perceive a given health threat as riskier and more dangerous and tend to be more vulnerable to everyday stress, especially when they perceive that their health is threatened (Miller et al., 2005).

Does your  pandemic blunter also seem to be a blunter about other more everyday things? I am definitely the monitor in everyday life, and it shows with my higher stress level and insomnia. My blunter has less stress about everything. However, I often feel like the blunter can get away with it because I am the one trying to prep for things like when the blunter's special needs sibling has to move in with us eventually, etc. The blunter, however, seems to keep the stress level lower (and have better sleep!) by ignoring problems and assuming they will just go away. (For example: assuming that said sibling won't outlive their parents.)

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, JumpyTheFrog said:

Does your  pandemic blunter also seem to be a blunter about other more everyday things? I am definitely the monitor in everyday life, and it shows with my higher stress level and insomnia. My blunter has less stress about everything. However, I often feel like the blunter can get away with it because I am the one trying to prep for things like when the blunter's special needs sibling has to move in with us eventually, etc. The blunter, however, seems to keep the stress level lower (and have better sleep!) by ignoring problems and assuming they will just go away. (For example: assuming that said sibling won't outlive their parents.)

Yes, that is very much the pattern here too. 

[daijobu]

I agree with you.  

Have you already shown This Person the Herman Cain Award list?  (Awarded posthumously...)

Seeing a bunch of dead people + snarky comments about dead people seems to promote vaccination.

[daijobu]

I'm embarrassed to say I'm addicted to the HCA list.  I read it every day.  Lately, more ppl who view the list subsequently post their vaccination cards!  It's quite lovely to see, after all that snark about dead ppl.  Here's a sample from just one dead guy:

"Good thing he was an expert on all of this. He really showed us."

"Everybody gangsta till their lungs turn into goo."

"What a beta he was. He got the grand prize, a body bag."

"All that research finally paid off!"

"Think of the money they will save by not getting the free vaccine."

"Even full force prayer warriors barely getting better results!"

"I wonder how many would-be mass shooters Covid has culled from the herd."

"You can always tell a Covid expert because they will perpetually use the wrong form of then/than"

"Also breath/breathe"

"Speaking as a lib, he really owned me.

Now whats for lunch?"

"Tilapia tacos, rice and veggies"

"I chuckled when the dad's passing was devistating, while his death announcement was like the weather forecast."

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by daijobu

[Guest]

8 hours ago, daijobu said:

I agree with you.  

Have you already shown This Person the Herman Cain Award list?  (Awarded posthumously...)

Seeing a bunch of dead people + snarky comments about dead people seems to promote vaccination.

I do look at the HCA Reddit but no, I don’t give him information anymore. He is determined to be delusional about the effect COVID is having on actual people, and not necessarily those who are old or sickly. The only possibility I see for him to change his mind on this at all is if someone around his age whom he know really well - a close friend, a sibling - suffers extraordinary harm or death from Covid. And fortunately/unfortunately that probably won’t happen because with only a very few exceptions, people in that category are all vaccinated. He has one sibling who isn’t vaxxed but there is another reason he could possibly give as an excuse (medically) if that person got very sick or died.

This Person does not seek information. He doesn’t read, subscribe to news journals, listen to audiobooks, or surf the web. In a ways it’s good because he doesn’t get sucked into stuff like Q or anti vax or Twitter wars. But it’s bad because he is remarkably unaware of The Conversation of society. 
 

Im still really upset about this and the vax thing is only one iteration of what is so upsetting to me. The true problem is that I don’t have a true partner. And I am very sad about that. 

[Laura Corin]

4 minutes ago, Quill said:

 The true problem is that I don’t have a true partner. And I am very sad about that. 

I'm sorry @Quill

[Lanny]

Where does this person get the idea that their "Natural Immunity" is 20X more than the protection they would get from being fully vaccinated?   IMO that is rubbish and is an invented number with no basis in reality.

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Lanny said:

Where does this person get the idea that their "Natural Immunity" is 20X more than the protection they would get from being fully vaccinated?   IMO that is rubbish and is an invented number with no basis in reality.

From some cocked-up “study” he’s heard somewhere on people in Israel. I have no idea if there was ever a study like that. I told him I could produce literally hundreds of reputable studies that conclude the best way to be confident in your immune response is to be vaccinated. But he does not care. He has no interest whatsoever in reading any article I could produce because he does not base his decisions on logic and data and authoritative sources. 
 

ETA: I can’t link it properly. It is mentioned in the WSJ. If you Google that and the pertinent words you will see. 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Quill

[JustEm]

I am sorry you don't feel you have a partner that must be so difficult. I imagine that if you're anything like me and God forbid someone close to you does die and he is either the cause or still doesn't turn around it might change you couldn't forgive him. And that would ultimately lead to the end of your relationship (I have seen this happen twice during this pandemic.)

If you think you would leave over a scenario like that does he know that? Does he know that his behavior is so deeply damaging his relationship with you? Like truly know that, have you been blunt about that? Because if that hasn't been spelled out to him he might not actually realize it. Not that it is likely to change his opinion sadly.

[happi duck]

I don't understand "just the flu" people.  Okay, fine.  It's the "flu"...a spectacularly bad, long, deadly " flu" "season"... can we all step up and be part of ending this please!?!!?

Many (hugs) to any of you dealing with deniers close to you.