....

[prairiewindmomma]

16 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

That sounds like what I need, but I don't know how to make it happen.  

I have the time.  My kids would be OK.  But the sleep doesn't come. 

But once you are down, can you stay down? That’s my point. I can’t get to sleep until 2-2:30am on my bad nights  but I can stay down until 11am.

(I am having a current stress trigger, until a few weeks ago I could sleep normally.)

Edited June 30, 2021 by prairiewindmomma

[Melissa Louise]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5570448

Tai chi helps adults with insomnia. 

 

[Melissa in Australia]

I have never had the level of stress you have. but at my most stressed, when I was on the verge of a breakdown I did the reverse of meditation. I filled my brain with noise

 I listened to The Pirates of Penzance for 30 minutes or more then went to bed. Every single time I woke up my brain was full of pirates singing. I could not thinkor dwell on anything. 

[Drama Llama]

Just now, prairiewindmomma said:

But once you are down, can you stay down? That’s my point. I can’t get to sleep until 2-2:30am, but I can stay down until 11am

I would need a lot of medication to get to 8 a.m.. but then the next night I am up later. I am torn between thinking that I should just take it every day, and that maybe after a month of sleeping every night I will have made up the sleep debt and be less anxious, and worrying that if I take that much medication I will then lose any ability to fall asleep without it.

[Drama Llama]

I’ve also wondered about shifting it later.  Like taking enough meds to sleep 8 hours tonight, then staying up 18 hours. Then go to sleep for 8 hours and wake up two hours later.  

[prairiewindmomma]

I wouldn’t Medicate that hard. :( 

[Carol in Cal.]

EMDR is the gold standard for PTSD, I understand.

[amiesmom]

I don't know if this will work for you, but the only thing that has helped me to sleep well for in the last 10 years or so is to get up by 6 am and go for at least a 5 mile walk. Every day. I was doing really well with this until it got too hot last summer, then school started again and I fell out of my routine, but when I was consistent I at least slept soundly every night.

[Drama Llama]

13 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

EMDR is the gold standard for PTSD, I understand.

Yes, I am looking into that.  

[YaelAldrich]

I have to agree pretty much with HSL.  Death, especially out of order death, IS a mind and body f-er.  After my sister's passing (and subsequent implosion of my marriage, best friendship, and oldest son dropping out of life, etc), it took a hefty dose of Benadryl every single night for over a year (and that many times wasn't enough). I still need it many nights but after four years it has gotten much better. I exercised every morning (running 30 mins or so), got therapy, and dealt with the issues at hand.  It was SOOO hard.  I feel for you.  I didn't have a choice to sleep in or take care of my sleep health.  But you can!  I am hugging you so much!

[Drama Llama]

I am way past Benadryl.  I take 3 prescription meds that are supposed to sleep, unless I take the rescue med and then it’s 4.  I don’t know how to take care of my sleep health.  Like I am not sure what that means.

[Rosie_0801]

2 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I eat pretty well, but if you have specific food suggestions, I'd love them.  I don't actually know what foods contain the ingredients for serotonin.

Foods like dairy, oily fish (even tinned,) poultry, oatmeal, nuts and seeds, chocolate, green leafy veg, bananas, apples, prunes.

A probiotic might help too. Stressed bodies forget to prioritise digestion and most serotonin is made in the gut.

[Katy]

The only other thing I know that helps PTSD is time in nature. An audiobook I heard in the subject said a 2-3 week whitewater canoe trip helped the people dramatically. 

I know it’s what helped my dad the most after Vietnam also.  But it wasn’t like it ever really went away either. Just improved. 

I think I’d just take more medicine and try to sleep as much as possible for at least 2 weeks.

[Catwoman]

7 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I am way past Benadryl.  I take 3 prescription meds that are supposed to sleep, unless I take the rescue med and then it’s 4.  I don’t know how to take care of my sleep health.  Like I am not sure what that means.

Have you checked to see if any of your sleep medications might actually be contributing to your insomnia?

Sometimes, medications work for a while, and then end up having the opposite effect. I don’t know what you’re taking, so that may not be the case here, but it might be worth looking up the side effects of your meds to see if insomnia is among them. I know it sounds weird, but it may be worth a try.

[Drama Llama]

1 minute ago, Catwoman said:

Have you checked to see if any of your sleep medications might actually be contributing to your insomnia?

Sometimes, medications work for a while, and then end up having the opposite effect. I don’t know what you’re taking, so that may not be the case here, but it might be worth looking up the side effects of your meds to see if insomnia is among them. I know it sounds weird, but it may be worth a try.

I have a couple medical specialists working on it.  I am apparently not an easy patient to problem solve.  

[Drama Llama]

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

https://www.sleepfoundation.org/insomnia/treatment/cognitive-behavioral-therapy-insomnia 

It's called CBT-I 

There are some CBT-I apps, I'm sure. Off to Google some more. 

 

 

I will check it out.

[Catwoman]

5 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I have a couple medical specialists working on it.  I am apparently not an easy patient to problem solve.  

I hope they can find a way to help you!

[Drama Llama]

I am sorry everyone I shouldn’t waste your time.  I am reading everything and thinking even if I’m not in a mind frame to problem solve.  

A huge part of my identity is wrapped up in teaching and walking away from it, even though I am sure it’s the right choice, is hard, plus it’s the 9 month anniversary of my son’s death and there is some other family stuff triggering me.

So if I come across as not problem solving well it is probably true.

[historically accurate]

What helped me when I was at the most stressful time in my life a few years ago was the following. I'd take some lighter sleep meds and then youtubed a LONG sleep meditation and I would just lay on the bed in the cool, quiet room with my eyes closed. Usually I'd lay there and cry, but I tried to focus. You're supposed to fall asleep during those, but I'm not sure I ever did, but it did quiet my whirring mind. Then, I'd take the heftier sleep meds, and I'd switch to the calm app and do a sleep story. Often by that time, I'd be close to sleep but not quite there. If so, I'd then recite the Lord's Prayer until I fell asleep. I used the Lord's Prayer because it's something I can mostly rattle off by memory, but I'd have to concentrate just a little. If I was still raring to go, then I would get up, move to a different room and read something boring - I can't even remember what I read. If I woke in the middle of the night, as I often did, I'd repeat this process (minus the meds - mine couldn't be taken that late). If I was within an hour of getting up time, I'd get up and go for a walk and try again that night. Honestly, I just spent a lot of time crying on my bed listening to soothing speakers, but I did get through it. I'm so sorry - I hope you get some sleep soon. I wish someone could wave a magic wand and give you a night's peaceful rest. Hugs to you.

Edited July 1, 2021 by historically accurate

[Catwoman]

2 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I am sorry everyone I shouldn’t waste your time.  I am reading everything and thinking even if I’m not in a mind frame to problem solve.  

A huge part of my identity is wrapped up in teaching and walking away from it, even though I am sure it’s the right choice, is hard, plus it’s the 9 month anniversary of my son’s death and there is some other family stuff triggering me.

So if I come across as not problem solving well it is probably true.

Don’t worry about it at all — you’re not wasting our time!

[Katy]

Yes don’t worry about it. This is what hive mind is best suited for- solving hard problems. 

[Drama Llama]

10 minutes ago, historically accurate said:

What helped me when I was at the most stressful time in my life a few years ago was the following. I'd take some lighter sleep meds and then youtubed a LONG sleep meditation and I would just lay on the bed in the cool, quiet room with my eyes closed. Usually I'd lay there and cry, but I tried to focus. You're supposed to fall asleep during those, but I'm not sure I ever did, but it did quiet my whirring mind. Then, I'd take the heftier sleep meds, and I'd switch to the calm app and do a sleep story. Often by that time, I'd be close to sleep but not quite there. If so, I'd then recite the Lord's Prayer until I fell asleep. I used the Lord's Prayer because it's something I can mostly rattle off by memory, but I'd have to concentrate just a little. If I was still raring to go, then I would get up, move to a different room and read something boring - I can't even remember what I read. If I woke in the middle of the night, as I often did, I'd repeat this process (minus the meds - mine couldn't be taken that late). If I was within an hour of getting up time, I'd get up and go for a walk and try again that night. Honestly, I just spent a lot of time crying on my bed listening to soothing speakers, but I did get through it. I'm so sorry - I hope you get some sleep soon. I wish someone could wave a magic wand and give you a night's peaceful rest. Hugs to you.

I don’t really tolerate being in bed very well, until I am crying pretty hard.  It’s a pretty anxiety provoking place for me.

[Drama Llama]

33 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Foods like dairy, oily fish (even tinned,) poultry, oatmeal, nuts and seeds, chocolate, green leafy veg, bananas, apples, prunes.

A probiotic might help too. Stressed bodies forget to prioritise digestion and most serotonin is made in the gut.

I eat all that stuff, except for buts due to a kid with allergies, because I have a major obsession with feeding people I love, and I eat what they eat.

I should try a probiotic that is a great idea.  

[Catwoman]

4 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I don’t really tolerate being in bed very well, until I am crying pretty hard.  It’s a pretty anxiety provoking place for me.

This is probably a stupid idea, but have you tried falling asleep on the couch or on a recliner? Maybe a change of location might help.

[Drama Llama]

5 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

This is probably a stupid idea, but have you tried falling asleep on the couch or on a recliner? Maybe a change of location might help.

I have never fallen asleep successfully in either.  I have tried.  Plus I like sharing a bed with my husband.

[JennyD]

Oh OP, I am so sorry that things are so hard.

6 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I don’t really tolerate being in bed very well, until I am crying pretty hard.  It’s a pretty anxiety provoking place for me.

This seems like a really important insight.  If you associate your bed with anxiety, then no wonder you can't sleep!  

Maybe the first step is to find a way that you can rest?   Is there any place in your house where you can go at night to lie down, close your eyes, and just feel peaceful?  Even if you can't actually sleep, just being able to rest quietly can be very recharging, 

[Junie]

Sending hugs.

I have struggled with insomnia, though for health reasons not grief.

Right now I usually sleep from 1 am to 6 am.  Sometimes I wake up at 5, other times at 7:30.  I don't use an alarm clock.  I also take a nap for about an hour every afternoon.

So I guess on average I'm only getting about 6 hours of sleep each 24 hours.  And for now, that's enough.

I know it goes against conventional wisdom, but I sleep better if I eat a fairly good-sized meal (very carb heavy) about an hour or two before bed.  Otherwise I wake up hungry.

Also, taking a long shower just before bed helps, too.  I think it warms up my body temperature which helps me sleep.  (I also can't sleep if I'm cold.)

 

[retiredHSmom]

 

1 hour ago, Carol in Cal. said:

EMDR is the gold standard for PTSD, I understand.

1 hour ago, BaseballandHockey said:

Yes, I am looking into that.  

EMDR saved my daughter's life and I have seen it drastically improve the lives of other people as well.  A great EMDR therapist is worth every penny they cost

[fairfarmhand]

41 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I am sorry everyone I shouldn’t waste your time.  I am reading everything and thinking even if I’m not in a mind frame to problem solve.  

A huge part of my identity is wrapped up in teaching and walking away from it, even though I am sure it’s the right choice, is hard, plus it’s the 9 month anniversary of my son’s death and there is some other family stuff triggering me.

So if I come across as not problem solving well it is probably true.

Don’t be sorry. This is what we do. You’re problems are welcome here, even if we can’t be all that helpful.

[AmandaVT]

1 hour ago, BaseballandHockey said:

Yes, I am looking into that.  

Yes, for PTSD, EMDR is the way to go. 

I don't have a ton of sleep advice, but when I went through a terrible not-sleeping period, I took a benedryl at night to help me sleep. My aunt went through years of sleep struggles and some of the dr's advice was to walk a lot during the day, if she woke up and didn't think she was going to be able to fall back asleep, to just not try. Turn on a light and read until she felt like she could, or not and just stay up. She also does a benedryl or tylenol PM every night.

[HeartString]

3 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

For podcasts with very calming voices, try This Jungian Life. 

I actually love it as a podcast, but if I need soothing to sleep, I play an old ep and crash out 5 min later 

 

I’ll check that out.  I love a new podcast. 

[Tap]

Said gently and with kindness.....It sounds to me like you have developed a habit of falling asleep due to pure exhaustion (physcial and mental). You need to retrain your body to fall asleep to just rest. 

I would look into bio-feedback. A professional would be the most beneficial, but maybe a bio-feedback ap and some work on mindfullness would help. You would likely benefit from some retraining of your brain's rest and sleep cycles. 

I have not been through as much as you, but I remember a period of time when I could not.shut.my.brain.off.  Even if I dozed off, I woke up an hour later and my brain was swimming in anxiety producing thoughts. It took a while for me to learn to turn those thoughts off and to teach myself to save those intrusive thoughts for the next day. I don't like to write, but a journal is one way people release tension and give themselves permission to  'postpone thoughts'.  For me, I imagined I put the thoughts in God's hands, and asked him to hold them for me till the next day. I asked him to give me back the thoughts that I needed in the future and to keep the ones I didn't. I am ot an overtly religious person, but it helped me to prioritize problems I didn't need to solve at 12:30AM. I also have one dream that I had one night that was very, very restfull. I try to take my self back to that place and focus on those feelings. It doesn't always work, but on the rare occsionan it does, it is blissfull. 

I keep a few alarms set so I know I can go back to sleep in the morning if I am actually resting. One alarm for the ideal time to get up (allows time for morning chores). One alarm for my normal wake up time. And a final alarm, for "you need to be in motion, right now!". I like having all three because it allows me to make decisions in the morning on what time I am getting up, not before I go to sleep. 

 

((((Hugs)))) lack of sleep is so debilitating! 

[J-rap]

3 hours ago, YaelAldrich said:

I have to agree pretty much with HSL.  Death, especially out of order death, IS a mind and body f-er.  After my sister's passing (and subsequent implosion of my marriage, best friendship, and oldest son dropping out of life, etc), it took a hefty dose of Benadryl every single night for over a year (and that many times wasn't enough). I still need it many nights but after four years it has gotten much better. I exercised every morning (running 30 mins or so), got therapy, and dealt with the issues at hand.  It was SOOO hard.  I feel for you.  I didn't have a choice to sleep in or take care of my sleep health.  But you can!  I am hugging you so much!

What is a hefty does?  Do you mean more than one pill?

[Ausmumof3]

I failed a school subject (only one in my life) through reading till 3am to avoid falling asleep and having grief related nightmares.  I don’t have much advice but I’m feeling for you.  
 

for non-grief related sleep issues I have to do something really challenging either physically and mentally.  So a solid day of gardening and physical labour type work or I read something in my foreign language that’s way above me level.  Probably they won’t help with this specific thing but maybe if you can manage you could try them.  
 

Or you could use my sleep avoidance technique I used and read novels till 3am.  It won’t help with driving safety though.

One other thing that works is camping.  Maybe you need to take a few days away and go camping and hiking or something.  But I totally understand if that suggestion is way off and overwhelming.

Edited July 1, 2021 by Ausmumof3

[Guest]

11 hours ago, HeartString said:

I have a couple of podcasts that I play to fall asleep to.  I have found that my brain goes to crazy places if left to wander in the quiet, so I listen to a quiet podcast, something with a soothing host and not dramatic stories .  99% invisible, History Hit and The People’s Pharmacy are my go tos.  I feel like it distracts my thoughts enough to let me sleep, otherwise I start ruminating and stress myself out.  

That’s my strategy too. I have the Calm app, which I mostly use for the sleep stories and “white noise” sounds. My favorite sound is Train Ride, which 100% sounds like the super-speed train I took through Switzerland last year. 

I do agree with HappySmiley, though, in that the only way out of grief is through.  But I also understand the need to be functional, which makes it very hard. 

[Melissa in Australia]

10 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I am sorry everyone I shouldn’t waste your time.  

You are not

Huge hugs 

 

[sbgrace]

I'm glad you are getting mental health help and possible EMDR. Seems, though, the trauma work (hopefully EMDR; nature seems like a good idea if doable) is going to be key for your recovery in this area. 

When you wrote your bed is an anxiety trigger I thought-- this happened to my son for less traumatic reasons. The sleep medicine specialist wanted him to try sleeping a chair and etc--which did not work for him. She then suggested that we switch up his bed--location/position of the bed, head on the opposite end, etc....to try to break those connections in his mind.

He also listened to the Sleep With Me podcast to distract his mind. (Plus mindful body scan/progressive relaxation, medication, exercise, light exposure control, and careful sleep hygeine--all the things). 

I don't know if there is a way to sleep with your husband but change the bed in some way or to have both of you sleep in a different place (elevated air mattress even). It might be worth trying.  

I see lots of podcasts have been recommended. It feels like that, if you can find the right thing (engaging enough to distract your mind, not so engaging that it keeps you awake) it might help you. 

 

 

[YaelAldrich]

9 hours ago, J-rap said:

What is a hefty does?  Do you mean more than one pill?

I do liquid but an equivalent to 2-3 pills.

[Drama Llama]

2 hours ago, sbgrace said:

I'm glad you are getting mental health help and possible EMDR. Seems, though, the trauma work (hopefully EMDR; nature seems like a good idea if doable) is going to be key for your recovery in this area. 

When you wrote your bed is an anxiety trigger I thought-- this happened to my son for less traumatic reasons. The sleep medicine specialist wanted him to try sleeping a chair and etc--which did not work for him. She then suggested that we switch up his bed--location/position of the bed, head on the opposite end, etc....to try to break those connections in his mind.

He also listened to the Sleep With Me podcast to distract his mind. (Plus mindful body scan/progressive relaxation, medication, exercise, light exposure control, and careful sleep hygeine--all the things). 

I don't know if there is a way to sleep with your husband but change the bed in some way or to have both of you sleep in a different place (elevated air mattress even). It might be worth trying.  

I see lots of podcasts have been recommended. It feels like that, if you can find the right thing (engaging enough to distract your mind, not so engaging that it keeps you awake) it might help you. 

 

 

We have moved a bunch of times, so I have slept, or more like failed to sleep in 8 different beds in 3 different houses over the past 9 months.  I think I am triggered by sleep and beds are just associated with sleep.

[Kanin]

13 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

A huge part of my identity is wrapped up in teaching and walking away from it, even though I am sure it’s the right choice, is hard

I get this. I'm sure I'd feel the same way. You could always go back to teaching, some day, if you want. 

[SKL]

Sorry, I can't read the previous responses right now.

I know you said no medication advice, but have you thought about stopping all medications for a fresh start?  Your unmedicated baseline might be different from what it was in the past.  I know your doctors are smarter about this than I am, but there is always a possibility that multiple meds work against each other, in addition to creating other side effects.

[regentrude]

Sorry coming late to this, maybe this has already been suggested.

Can you sleep when you have had a good amount of physical exertion?
I don't mean an hour walking around the block. I mean several hours of hard physical activity outside (sun is great to help with circadian rhythm and mental health).
I found that for optimal functioning, I need a great deal more physical exertion than our civilized western lives deem normal. I would suggest you experiment with this (even though it might not be sustainable for your routine once you go back to work), just to figure out if it may help.
I never feel as good as when I am working on my friend's farm for a few hours, even in the heat, or hike/kayak to the point of actual exhaustion on a regular basis. Physical exhaustion, at least for me, is a good help for mental/emotional exhaustion.

Edited July 1, 2021 by regentrude

[mathnerd]

6 hours ago, sbgrace said:

When you wrote your bed is an anxiety trigger I thought-- this happened to my son for less traumatic reasons. The sleep medicine specialist wanted him to try sleeping a chair and etc--which did not work for him. She then suggested that we switch up his bed--location/position of the bed, head on the opposite end, etc....to try to break those connections in his mind.

change the bed in some way or to have both of you sleep in a different place (elevated air mattress even). It might be worth trying.  

I highly recommend trying this. There was a period of time when I could not fall asleep in my own bed for months (trigger for anxiety as well). So, we swapped bedrooms with my child for almost a year. I was able to sleep better in another room. It is worth a try and you have some time to switch up furniture and see if another room helps you.

[Not_a_Number]

The only thing that has really helped change sleep hormones in our household is figuring out the right timing for sun exposure. So, if we needed the kids to sleep in, having them stay in the sunlight until 7 pm did wonders. If we wanted the kids to wake up earlier, more morning sun was good. 

We've never tried medical interventions, but this one was surprisingly successful. So you might try to see if you can get a TON of outdoor sun exposure in the morning and see if it helps. 

I also find that being militant about waking up at the exact same time every day really helps my wellbeing, although I don't think it increases my total hours of sleep. But it helps my sleep levels stay even. 

[fraidycat]

A somewhat lighthearted and jokey recommendation, but also worth a try is the age-old "dad's everywhere" stereotype of relaxing on the couch or a recliner in front of the t.v. where "I'm not sleeping, I'm just resting my eyes".

A time in which, if nothing else, you get to rest your eyes and body, without the expectation of sleep.

[Terabith]

40 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I also find that being militant about waking up at the exact same time every day really helps my wellbeing, although I don't think it increases my total hours of sleep. But it helps my sleep levels stay even. 

I think that works if you're getting a solid 7-8 hours or so pretty okay, but if you're utterly exhausted with a sleep debt of months, I'm not sure a consistent 4 hours is as good as inconsistent 8.  

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Terabith said:

I think that works if you're getting a solid 7-8 hours or so pretty okay, but if you're utterly exhausted with a sleep debt of months, I'm not sure a consistent 4 hours is as good as inconsistent 8.  

I'm just reporting what has worked for me. I'm not getting 7-8 consistently, but I feel much better if I get up at the same time every day. I didn't change my totals much by doing so, but it works much better for my body. 

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'm just reporting what has worked for me. I'm not getting 7-8 consistently, but I feel much better if I get up at the same time every day. I didn't change my totals much by doing so, but it works much better for my body. 

This has been my experience as well.
I have to be at work later on Tues+Thurs, so I changed the alarm to half an hour later on those days, and I never developed a decent rhythm, was always tired waking MWF. At some point, I decided to just simply always get up at that same earlier time. And have been sleeping much better ever since. If I sleep in on weekends, I pay with a migraine. Not worth it.

[Not_a_Number]

4 minutes ago, regentrude said:

This has been my experience as well.
I have to be at work later on Tues+Thurs, so I changed the alarm to half an hour later on those days, and I never developed a decent rhythm, was always tired waking MWF. At some point, I decided to just simply always get up at that same earlier time. And have been sleeping much better ever since. If I sleep in on weekends, I pay with a migraine. Not worth it.

Oooh. You too, eh? I don't get a migraine if I sleep in, but I do get a tension headache. And I pay for it both on the day I sleep in and the NEXT day. My rhythm is persistently out of whack.  

Whereas if I wake up at the same time every day, the worst that happens is that I'm a bit tired some days when I go to bed too late. But my body doesn't feel off-kilter and I don't have trouble catching up by going to bed early once in a while. 

[Not_a_Number]

I'll add that my husband, who tends to be VERY skeptical about any interventions of this sort and is acutely aware of confirmation bias, was totally gobsmacked by the change when I started setting the alarm at the same time each day. He says that my headaches probably went down to a third of what they were, both in frequency and intensity. 

I'm not arguing that this will work for everyone, but this was a very interesting recent experience of mine.