Did you consider 4-year graduation rates in your college search?

[cintinative]

Someone (sorry, I don't remember) linked a book The Price You Pay for College: An Entirely New Road Map for the Biggest Financial Decision Your Family Will Ever Make and, as is my custom, I read the most liked reviews and some of the negatives.

One of the negative reviews was that the book did not talk about looking at four year graduation rates. The reviewer said something about issues with scheduling and other factors leading to students being in college longer than four years.  

Since I am just dipping my toe in with research (I have a high school freshman), this had not occurred to me. This sounds "new" from when I was in school.

So I went through my list of schools I had going in a spreadsheet and most were in the 40% to 50% range.  That sounds awful to me. What am I missing? Are there more co-op positions now?  What drives this?  

Thanks in advance!

[Lecka]

Can you see the 6-year graduation rate?

There can be a mix of students transferring, dropping out, and taking 5-6 years.  For students taking 5-6 years, this can be anything from changing a major to taking off a semester to work here and there.  
 

Locally I hear that often students can get into a class that is full if they attend the first several classes and talk to the professor.  But that can be a lot to keep happen and keep a space open in a schedule, since it’s not guaranteed to get in.  
 

You can also look and see what percent has to take remedial classes, this is (I think) very tied to graduation rates and times.

 

I went to a college with that kind of 4-year number, and Ime I knew a lot of people who left, and it was all either money or it was taking remedial classes.  For people taking remedial classes — many left after one semester to go spend less money at community college.  Some of them were maybe just not that academically inclined.  

 

This is, well, normal to me since my school was this way.  I had many friends and classmates who graduated in 4 years.  
 

Oh, something else is sometimes people would take freshman and sophomore level classes and then struggle to make the jump to junior/senior level classes.  Those were the only people I knew who stayed more than a year who seemed to be on a bad trajectory.  Sometimes they would change majors looking for some junior/senior classes they could do well in and then dropping the classes.  

[Lecka]

I will also say — I knew quite a few people who struggled in their remedial math class and that was it, they knew they needed to go to community college.  And then same for people who placed into math two semesters below for-credit math.  They mostly knew their first semester they were spending too much money.  
 

For where I went to school — many of them planned to attend community college and then go to a smaller 4-year school closer to home.  
 

 

[Kassia]

I do consider it, but am more interested in the retention rate due to so many circumstances affecting the 4 year graduation rate.  All of my kids did/will graduate in 4 years, but they had friends who didn't.  Mostly due to co-ops or changing majors.  

[Kassia]

Of course, with most scholarships only covering 4 years, that is very important to consider! 

[Lilaclady]

I think it is a good metric to look at and consider because schools that generally have good 4 yr graduation rates do tend to provide better support and guidance for their students but to be honest, most of the students are also more motivated and driven and have more resources than some of the other students. 
The college my dd is attending have a poor 4 yr graduation rate and people have claimed it is because of coops etc. I think it is more than  that. I think so many students change their majors and require additional time and so many also struggle in their first and second years. 
I think level of support accessible to students matter a lot but also making sure your student comes in prepared will go a long way. Students that are not sure of what they want to study or are not prepared for the rigor of their courses May need more time but that is not the end of the world. I think even if they spend 6 years but are well prepared in the work force, it doesn’t matter in the long run. 

[Kassia]

6 minutes ago, Lilaclady said:

I think it is a good metric to look at and consider because schools that generally have good 4 yr graduation rates do tend to provide better support and guidance for their students 

This reminds me that I suspect that large universities would have a lower 4 year graduation rate than small LACs where they are really committed to their undergraduates and expect them to be done in 4 years.  

[Lecka]

I think all the strong students I knew had other options and chose based on money. 
 

One of my best friends had other options in a big way, and chose partly on money and partly because she had a sick grandmother she was very close to and would be a 45-minute drive from during college.  Her grandma died during her Junior year and she was glad she was able to visit her so much more than if she had gone farther away.  
 

I only had one friend who was a very strong student who had not been a strong high school student.  The rest were all people who were getting into more competitive colleges with no scholarship, or getting partial scholarships at more competitive colleges but still with a high price tag.

 

I also knew a few strong students who came for a specific program that was only offered a handful of places in the region.

 

And a few strong students who were out-of-state from a state where the state flagships were more expensive than out-of-state at this school (and they all happened to be majoring in a program that was high-ranked and known for sending students to national-level internships).  

[teachermom2834]

Outside of our state flagship our other public universities and most of the private schools in our state are very easy to get into. So a lot of students who probably have not ever studied or really been into school give it a shot. I wouldn’t have graduation rate concerns for my stronger students at those schools. Now, if a school that is more difficult to get into has those kind of graduation rates it would get my interest more. 

The private college my oldest attended is not hard to get into but the academics are no joke. They lose a lot of kids who probably should not have been accepted in the first place. But it is a tiny school and they don’t turn a lot away. But it is pretty tough once you get there. 
 

I think graduation rates can be a useful thing to consider but you do need to weigh that with the kind of students they are accepting. 

[Arcadia]

2 hours ago, cintinative said:

. The reviewer said something about issues with scheduling and other factors leading to students being in college longer than four years.  

A private college tour we went to did address the point about four year graduation rate because parents typically ask. They did say that typical students would not have issues graduating on time due to scheduling. Students who change majors might take longer even with taking classes during summer term.

The college understands that any delay in graduation cost the student both tuition (and dorm fees) as well as potential income loss. 
 

I would look more at each school (Arts, Sciences, Engineering) graduation rate rather than just the overall college graduation rate. 

[RootAnn]

We looked at 4 year & 6 year rates. Neither were good. Like 30% four year and 50ish for 6 year. We hope to be in those percentages!

Oh! And dd#2 is going to attend one with a 13% 4-yr rate & 36% 6 yr rate! It gets even better!

Edited March 14, 2021 by RootAnn
Added dd#2's school

[teachermom2834]

I think it is worth looking at or asking about when you visit a school. Some schools will hem and haw a little about graduating in four years but others are adamant they will make it happen on their end and if the student takes care of business they will get to graduate on time. The huge state school my second ds went to took pride in their 4 yr rate and really pushed it. There were signs all over the university about taking enough hours to stay on track, etc. This school strongly discourages double majors because they want you done. They had state funding tied to a certain graduation rate and they were committed to it.

Our state flagship is a little “mushier” about it when you ask. Other schools all but promise they will get you done if you stay on track. 

The tiny school my oldest attended promised a 5th year free if you couldn’t get done because of scheduling issues. So you can learn more about the reasons behind the lower graduation rates if you dig a little.

Edited March 14, 2021 by teachermom2834

[Lecka]

It just depends, but I have heard that sometimes a scholarship can be extended.  I have heard it doesn’t hurt to ask.  Especially if there is some kind of extenuating circumstance.  
 

 

[BusyMom5]

I would be more concerned about how you think your kid will perform.  Some small schools will only offer certain classes one semester,  if you aren't on track you are out of luck smd have to wait.   Others may offer certain classes that fill quickly- not enough sections.  Those are the type things I would look at!  For the sections,  ask Jrs and Srs on campus how they were able to get their classes.  If your kiddo knows their path, watch how classes fill online (if uour school has it visible).  You csn also look at thr course catalogs and see which classes are held which semester to stay on track.

[daijobu]

If you are concerned about not being able to graduate in time because you can't schedule the classes, then you'll want to contact current students in your intended major, particularly for majors with fairly strict prerequisite chains.   Sometimes capable students aren't able to graduate on time because they are studying oversubscribed majors, and their required classes fill.  

If you are concerned that students aren't graduating on time because they aren't really capable, you need to ask yourself how important is the quality of your peer group.  Perhaps your student will shine in the eyes of her professors in contrast to all the drop outs.  You'll probably get a good idea by looking at average SAT scores and such.  

[Bootsie]

A lot depends upon the school.  If the 4-year graduation rate is counting what percent of student who start graduate from that institution in 4 year, some schools will have a low percentage because they have a lot of student drop out or transfer.  State schools that must accept everyone (or almost everyone) will have high dropout rates.  State schools that have students who are hoping to transfer to a flagship school in their junior year will have low rates.  Schools that have a high percentage of students working full-time or near full-time will have longer times to graduation.  

Other schools may have a large percentage of students in a five year program--pharmacy or accounting programs for example may be five year programs.  So, students are not "behind" graduating in five years they are just in a longer program.

 

[Lecka]

Locally (I live in a town with a large state school) Biology and Psychology have a reputation for being oversubscribed.  They are very popular majors here, I think they are the top 2 most popular with thousands of graduates.  I don’t really know why they wouldn’t offer more classes — but that is the reputation.  

Edited March 14, 2021 by Lecka

[Lecka]

Where I graduated, the business school had that reputation for the most popular concentration.  And also Psychology.  

[Lanny]

Yes when DD was looking at universities I paid a lot of attention to the graduation rates.  My impression is that the higher the standing of a school on USNEWS or some other list, the higher the graduation rate will be. There are exceptions but IMO it is related to the quality of the school and the students who apply to the schools near the top of the lists.

[MamaSprout]

And it's worth asking about "4 years" for scholarship purposes. At our local uni, Co-op semesters are expected and the students who have the 2-3 top scholarships don't have the co-op semesters count against their eligibility, although it might count against the 4-year numbers.

Edited March 14, 2021 by MamaSprout

[cintinative]

Thank you everyone! So helpful!

I had heard a story a couple years ago about a local university having more 1st year students than they anticipated (they accepted a lot and did not expect as many to enroll as actually did). As a result, it was really hard to even get gen ed courses scheduled. So it sounds like this is something that I need to keep an eye out for.  

I appreciate the comment about some schools providing more support to their students than others--I felt like my college was like this, and it is a 4-year rate (currently) of 68%,.  

[Lecka]

I felt like my school waited until very late in the process to tell students if they were going to need to take remedial classes, and then didn’t really explain it until classes had started.  I don’t think they knew they were going into remedial classes or the consequences.  I remember it as people starting to say in the first month of school that they were in remedial classes (or maybe just math) and it didn’t make sense for them to be there.  I did not think they realized it ahead of time.  I think they thought they were going to come and be in college-level classes.  
 

I also thought my school was happy to let students take hours and hours and “change majors” without really making any progress towards graduating, and I also thought they were happy to admit students and let them take lower-level classes without expecting them to be able to graduate.  The upper-level classes were much more difficult, while some of the lower-level classes were extremely easy or else maybe graded on just discussion and multiple-choice or short-answer tests, with no need to do much writing or write an essay answer for a test.

 

Then in upper level classes there would be essay tests and writing assignments that some students were not prepared for — and it didn’t seem like there was a gradation where lower-level classes prepared for upper-level classes, it seemed like there was just a big jump to either make or not.  
 

I also knew someone who changed his major after it became clear he couldn’t pass the final sequence for his major (I think the last 3 classes) and I thought it was not fair to him to get so far into it and think he would be able to pass after passing almost all of his upper-level classes.  He changed to a different concentration within the business school, so it didn’t add a ton of extra time, but I thought it seemed like a bait and switch.

 

A lot of things seemed like “caveat emptor” and like bait and switch, with the school happy to not say anything ahead of time and then say “you should have known.”  
 

But really I think it was a school with open admissions, and the burden was on students to know if they belonged there or not.

My freshman year I knew a lot of people who left after one semester, either bc of getting behind in studying on their own and getting poor grades, or else over remedial classes.  I think they transferred to community college.

After that, most of the people I knew graduated in 4 years.  Among people who didn’t, most had taken time off to work.  Some had taken a semester or year to do some kind of work or volunteer experience to help them look for a job or apply to graduate school.  I didn’t know anyone who got credit for doing that, so it added to their time.  I think some of them could have paid to receive credit, but it didn’t work out for them for getting all the classes they needed, so they just did it for no credit and taking time off of school.  

[Lecka]

Personally — a drawback for me was that a lot of really cool people I met and ate with in the cafeteria when I started college, did not come back after Winter break, and I kind-of had to meet new people. 
 

I still knew people, but it was like some groups merged into one group, after a lot of attrition from the original groups.

I was glad to be in a small major where I was getting to know people in my major, and that we would all be in mostly the same course progression and taking classes together.  
 

It turned out my dorm had the highest loss of students, out of any of the dorms.  Many dorms were “specialty dorms” and they lost fewer students.  
 

In mine it was very noticeable when we had fire drills, there were just a lot less people.  I remember an RA saying some huge percent didn’t come back for 2nd semester, maybe something like 40%?  

Edited March 14, 2021 by Lecka

[Farrar]

I agree with everyone else that it's super complex. A really low one needs to be investigated for reasons. A really high one is probably a good sign, but some types of schools are more poised to get a high one than others, which you have to take into account. If you have a student who is likely to do well regardless, then it matters less. If you're considering overcrowded schools, it may be a sign that they're not providing real paths to graduation.

[Not_a_Number]

I would guess that this is a measure of peer group more than anything. 

[MamaSprout]

In our state, you cannot go to a state school for remedial classes. The CC system does that. Sometimes those students will concurrently take the CC course while they are at the state school, but a lot of those students end up in small privates.

Our local small private doesn't actually tell students they are conditional admits. They do tell them that they qualify for extra academic support services and follow through with said services. They do seem to retain a lot of those students who are almost always student athletes. 4 year grad rate is around 50%, 6 year is around 63%. Not sure how co-ops figure in to those numbers. As private schools go, tuition is pretty moderate.

[daijobu]

4 hours ago, Lanny said:

Yes when DD was looking at universities I paid a lot of attention to the graduation rates.  My impression is that the higher the standing of a school on USNEWS or some other list, the higher the graduation rate will be. There are exceptions but IMO it is related to the quality of the school and the students who apply to the schools near the top of the lists.

This is generally true, but it's worth checking.  Berkeley is highly rated, but as a state school, tends to be underfunded.  I'm not sure what's going on now, but in the past, students had difficulty graduating on time because some majors were impacted and there just wasn't enough room in their classes to accommodate everyone.  

[Lilaclady]

2 hours ago, daijobu said:

This is generally true, but it's worth checking.  Berkeley is highly rated, but as a state school, tends to be underfunded.  I'm not sure what's going on now, but in the past, students had difficulty graduating on time because some majors were impacted and there just wasn't enough room in their classes to accommodate everyone.  

This is so true. We toured Berkeley and despite the fact that they are highly rated. They just had too many students and the tour guide did admit it might be hard to get some classes and you have to move classes around. I just did not see the point especially as my dd will be out of state. She didn’t apply afterwards. 

[Dmmetler]

Yes, and one of the big selling points several LAC's have is that they guarantee graduation in 4, and waive tuition if a 5th year is required (with stipulations basically saying that you need to be on track to a diploma and not dropping classes/withdrawing from classes in huge numbers).

 

 

[teachermom2834]

My kid at the tiny LAC never had to worry about this because even though there were not many class options, they did make sure to help the students get what they needed.
 

My kid who went to the huge state school did not have an issue because he had priority registration through the honors college which allowed him to register the first day of registration. He went in with some de and was able to graduate in 5 semesters plus some summer classes because he never had any scheduling conflicts. He actually dropped out of the honors college after he had registered for his final semester. He wasn’t interested in fulfilling all the honors requirements but he stayed in for his registration benefits. 
 

I always pound into my kids heads that they need to approach scheduling and registration very proactively. They need to know which classes might conflict and which classes might only be offered spring or fall and which have prereqs. They need to make sure there are no holds on their account and they know the registration procedures and have any permits they need. Of course the advisors are there for guidance but you can’t rely on advisors. They aren’t the ones who will be out the time and money if progress gets off track. So teaching kids to take charge of the process and check and double check everything is really helpful. Too many kids are not proactive or don’t register at the earliest time or don’t know what they need.  
 

So, sometimes it is an issue with the school but sometimes the students are not on top of it. Teaching your kids how to navigate the system and consulting with them the first couple semesters until they get the hang of it can help. 

[MerryAtHope]

I didn’t look at that. What I did look at was 4-year degree plans, the frequency of course offerings within a major, how easy or hard it was to get into classes of high interest (whether the classes repeat every semester, if they were fall or spring only or every other year...) and things like that. My kids started at the CC, got their associates, and transferred. I let them take their time and change majors etc... at the CC, but wanted to make sure the time at the university was as efficient and stream-lined as possible. 

[cintinative]

Just now, MerryAtHope said:

I didn’t look at that. What I did look at was 4-year degree plans, the frequency of course offerings within a major, how easy or hard it was to get into classes of high interest (whether the classes repeat every semester, if they were fall or spring only or every other year...) and things like that. My kids started at the CC, got their associates, and transferred. I let them take their time and change majors etc... at the CC, but wanted to make sure the time at the university was as efficient and stream-lined as possible. 

Is this generally available on the website, or did you have to ask an advisor in that department or a student, etc.? 

Thank you.

[MerryAtHope]

10 minutes ago, cintinative said:

Is this generally available on the website, or did you have to ask an advisor in that department or a student, etc.? 

Thank you.

It was all on the websites of the schools my kids transferred to. Sometimes I had to dig a bit, but past catalogs and degree plans were all available. Some majors require more specific plans than others. My ds is in media studies and has tons of choices within specific requirements. My dd is in education, and the last 2 years have no choices or options...everything is laid out and required. I did consult with advisors at both the cc and the transfer school, but also found I needed to be an intermediate advisor to make sure all the dots connected. 
 

When I say I consulted advisors, I really mean we... advisors don’t talk to parents alone, they generally talk to students. But I went with, prepped my kids with some things to ask, and then helped if there were gaps.

Edited March 14, 2021 by MerryAtHope

[JennyD]

5 hours ago, daijobu said:

This is generally true, but it's worth checking.  Berkeley is highly rated, but as a state school, tends to be underfunded.  I'm not sure what's going on now, but in the past, students had difficulty graduating on time because some majors were impacted and there just wasn't enough room in their classes to accommodate everyone.  

A few years ago we had a tutor who was a senior at UCLA and I was appalled to hear how much difficulty she had registering for the classes she needed to graduate.  

[Kassia]

1 hour ago, teachermom2834 said:

 

He wasn’t interested in fulfilling all the honors requirements but he stayed in for his registration benefits. 

Same for all four of my kids.  They only stayed in the honors programs for the incredibly valuable priority registration and dropped out after scheduling for spring of senior year.  Dd is doing that now (freshman) and will probably do the same.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

On 3/13/2021 at 6:09 PM, cintinative said:

Someone (sorry, I don't remember) linked a book The Price You Pay for College: An Entirely New Road Map for the Biggest Financial Decision Your Family Will Ever Make and, as is my custom, I read the most liked reviews and some of the negatives.

One of the negative reviews was that the book did not talk about looking at four year graduation rates. The reviewer said something about issues with scheduling and other factors leading to students being in college longer than four years.  

Since I am just dipping my toe in with research (I have a high school freshman), this had not occurred to me. This sounds "new" from when I was in school.

So I went through my list of schools I had going in a spreadsheet and most were in the 40% to 50% range.  That sounds awful to me. What am I missing? Are there more co-op positions now?  What drives this?  

Thanks in advance!

The national six-year graduation rate is around 55%.

There are many reasons for this, to include college readiness, financial considerations, mental or physical health, family circumstances, availability of courses, and educational quality at the school.

Something that isn't always evident in the grad rates is which student group has what rate. Students with fewer resources (low income, first generation, non-traditional like older, working, or parenting students) may have lower graduation rates even though the college is very supportive. 

It is possible to comb through the outcomes section of data and see rates by race and for Pell Grant recipients. 

Lieber does have a chapter on this. Check Chapter 19.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Sometimes a student needs an extra year because the courses are hard. This is pretty common for engineering. 

Also, if a student has to repeat a course, that delays courses that require the earlier course as a prerequisite. 

[frogger]

On 3/13/2021 at 4:19 PM, teachermom2834 said:

I think graduation rates can be a useful thing to consider but you do need to weigh that with the kind of students they are accepting. 

QFT

I think you have to look at the total package and take multiple things into consideration at once. Our big state university doubles as our community college (since we don't have a community college) so many students take remedial classes. The other thing is age and part time to fill time status. 47.9%of our local universities students are above the age of 25 and many are taking classes after work. You can't expect people to graduate in 4 years taking a couple of classes at a time after work.  So if you take it into consideration at all, make sure to factor in the student body and type of school. 

 

 

 

 

 

[cintinative]

Interestingly, I just had a conversation with a friend whose daughter is in a B.F.A. program and just realized there is no way she is graduating in four years--it is almost impossible to get the studios that are required done in that time.

It really sounds like they asked before they enrolled, but either the person running things at the time (who is now gone) was not totally honest or not totally realistic, whichever shoe fits best.  The reality of it came out when this student talked with those further along in the program.

So much to think about.

Edited March 21, 2021 by cintinative

[EKS]

We considered four year graduation rates.  It was definitely a strike against the University of Washington (our state flagship).

One thing I know from having coached my older son through to an on time graduation is that if he had been left to his own devices, he probably would have taken an extra year or two.  At least for his major, which was highly interdisciplinary and had a ton of required classes because of it, someone needed to have a solid big picture understanding of the requirements (for the major and general ed) as well as the details (like knowing which required courses are only offered during a single term in even numbered years).  I was the one who maintained a master spreadsheet and ensured that he was on track (including making sure he didn't forget to sign up for classes at the very beginning of his registration timeslot).  He picked the classes within that framework.  Would it have been better if he had orchestrated it all himself?  Absolutely.  But there was no way I was going to pay private school tuition for additional years!

So my point here is that there is more to the on-time graduation thing than problems on the school's end.  Student's who aren't paying enough attention surely contribute as well.

[MerryAtHope]

8 hours ago, EKS said:

We considered four year graduation rates.  It was definitely a strike against the University of Washington (our state flagship).

One thing I know from having coached my older son through to an on time graduation is that if he had been left to his own devices, he probably would have taken an extra year or two.  At least for his major, which was highly interdisciplinary and had a ton of required classes because of it, someone needed to have a solid big picture understanding of the requirements (for the major and general ed) as well as the details (like knowing which required courses are only offered during a single term in even numbered years).  I was the one who maintained a master spreadsheet and ensured that he was on track (including making sure he didn't forget to sign up for classes at the very beginning of his registration timeslot).  He picked the classes within that framework.  Would it have been better if he had orchestrated it all himself?  Absolutely.  But there was no way I was going to pay private school tuition for additional years!

So my point here is that there is more to the on-time graduation thing than problems on the school's end.  Student's who aren't paying enough attention surely contribute as well.

Yes, and honestly advisors too often are not knowledgeable enough to make it happen either. I found it was necessary both financially and for my kids’ best interests to step in and take a hands-on advisor approach. I investigate until I thoroughly understand how things will work and I know what questions we really need to ask. Sometimes the things I wanted to ask came up naturally in the advisor meetings and other times not. 

[skimomma]

Former academic advisor here.....  My own dd is starting college in the fall but we did not consider 4-year rates.  As others have said, there are some majors that are going to be more than 4 years for almost everyone, including dd's area of study.  It *can* be done in 4 years or less but almost everyone does at least one co-op, which drives the rate down.  If you switch majors, which many many students do, that can tack on significant time.  And in my dd's case, I am going to encourage her to take lighter loads even if it means her graduation will take more time, because I would much rather pay for an extra semester or two than have her spend the first 4-years in a state of panic.  I don't feel like the rate really says much about a school or program.  It can but often doesn't, making it difficult to assess from the outside looking in.  I would spend my energy on some of the contributing factors like course availability, available support for struggling students, and admissions policies.

[Arcadia]

On 3/21/2021 at 6:56 AM, cintinative said:

 

It really sounds like they asked before they enrolled, but either the person running things at the time (who is now gone) was not totally honest or not totally realistic, whichever shoe fits best.  The reality of it came out when this student talked with those further along in the program.

When we signed up for college tours at nearby colleges before COVID, they had a general tour and a school tour. So for a particular college we ended up doing a general tour and three 1hr school tours. The school tours had current undergraduates tagging along to answer questions regarding their school and their majors. 
 

I looked at the graduation data for my local state university and when I drill down the information, I unintentionally found that very few graduated with a math major. They have the data sorted by full time, part time, state funded, self funded, ethnicity, major.

[stripe]

On 3/13/2021 at 6:09 PM, cintinative said:

Someone (sorry, I don't remember) linked a book The Price You Pay for College: An Entirely New Road Map for the Biggest Financial Decision Your Family Will Ever Make and, as is my custom, I read the most liked reviews and some of the negatives.

One of the negative reviews was that the book did not talk about looking at four year graduation rates.

Just a note about this. He actually DOES cover this in Chapter 19, “Better Salaries When You Finish — if You Finish.” He also discusses the percentage of community college students who transfer and finish a 4 year degree in Chapter 21.

[JanetC]

Yes, look at them, but don’t compare apples and oranges. Compare large state schools with other large state schools, and small colleges to small colleges. 

They collect this data for 4,5, and 6 years. Look at all three. For example, at one kid’s university, 5 year degrees are very popular, and there’s a big bump in the graduation stats at 4 to 5 years, but it stays flat at 6 years. 

Poor freshman retention rate should be checked with the same caveat: expect a big state  university to lose more freshmen than a selective college. 

Be sure all colleges you compare use the same years for their data. I suspect the pandemic will affect graduation rates once 2020 is in the data window.  

[Clemsondana]

When I was an undergrad my college guaranteed that if you stayed on schedule that you would be able to graduate in 4 years - in other words, you would never be prevented from graduating because you couldn't get a class in the year that you needed to take it.  When I was in grad school, I TA'd at a time when the first lottery scholarships were being used.  Students could have the scholarship for up to 6 years, if I remember correctly, but they had to maintain a 3.0 GPA.  Students seemed to accomplish this by taking 12 hours instead of the 17-18 that I took most semesters.  It's a different mindset.  I wonder how that affects campus culture and finances.  School was much cheaper 'back in the day', but we were also done and moving on at 22.  Students on the 6-year plan may have tuition covered by scholarships, but they have 6 years of college living expenses and likely don't start working full-time until 24.  I'm sure that the 'right answer' varies for different students, but I wonder how many students now just take longer because that's what everybody is doing, without taking advantage of the lighter courseload to work or study or do some other productive work.  

[idnib]

We're just now diving in, but it's something we're looking at. I first became aware of this situation when I myself went to college and saw bumper stickers that said "<College Name>, the best 6 years of your life!" My parents were not amused. I do think context matters, though. I would be more concerned with a lower 4-year graduation rate at a small private school than I would be with a large commuter campus with lots of working students or students with families.

Another metric that seems important is the second year return rate.

[Clarita]

On 3/13/2021 at 3:09 PM, cintinative said:

One of the negative reviews was that the book did not talk about looking at four year graduation rates. The reviewer said something about issues with scheduling and other factors leading to students being in college longer than four years.  

More important than asking how many students graduated in 4 years is why they can't. Typically this is a question you can casually ask during your tour of the university. For example, when I toured UC Santa Barbara they actually guaranteed a 4 year graduation for electrical engineering (if you never fail a class, "follow" their schedule, don't change major, etc.). To do ensure this, they make sure their electrical engineering students can get into every class that they need when they need it with priority registration and class offerings (even if you are the only student who needs that course - my smallest class had 3 people in it). On the flip side when I toured UC Davis, the tour guide made a comment that it is super difficult to graduate in 4 years and most people graduate in 5 or 6 because certain classes were only offered once a year or once every 2 years so if your timing wasn't right it'd be a 5 year graduation. 

Not that you can ever know the future, but graduating in 4 years for me meant having a job out of college vs. not. I graduated June 2006 and the housing bust hindered employment after that. It worked out really well for me.  

[Faith-manor]

We looked at a lot of that for our three boys. And when they entered their programs, they were set to graduate in four. But, the first two both changed majors, radically from BS degrees to BA degrees, and that hit them hard. So they graduated in five. Well one attended for five but graduated in six because he had to take a year off for a health crisis. What was hard was that by taking that year off, he was "out of sync" with some course scheduling. His advisor did a great job of finding what he needed at satellite campuses during the summer semester so he could get back into the rotation. Youngest though really adored his major from the beginning, and his department, electrical engineering, has it streamlined so that if the student does not fail a class or take time off, they are out in eight semesters. Our youngest graduates, May 2022.

It was difficult when I was in college to graduate in four due to scheduling. I was a piano performance major and to make it since we had to have two performance groups each semester plus lessons on our instrument in addition to a full schedule of classes, we had to take roughly 17-19 credits every semester for four years. On paper the degree required 130 credits, but in time spent, it was worse than that. Many performance groups were not for credit, but the time involved was the same each one requiring a commitment of 2-4 credit hours of practice/rehearsal/performance not to mention juries and recitals every single year. It was wretched, and exhausting.

Dh had no trouble getting through his math/compsci double major. No scheduling issues etc. But he had to make sure he never had less than a C in any class. He walked through, however many of his classmates couldn't handle the homework level and had to scale back to 12 credits a semester thus it took them 4.5 -5 years. Yes, more expensive. But, it was better for them.

[TravelingChris]

On 3/14/2021 at 5:47 PM, JennyD said:

A few years ago we had a tutor who was a senior at UCLA and I was appalled to hear how much difficulty she had registering for the classes she needed to graduate.  

A long time ago, like in the mid 80's,  dh and I were doing recruiting and also interviews with applicants for the college we graduated (Univ. of Chicago).  We were at our first stationing in LA.   I think our college had an interest day or something in the Fall and asked us to come to it too.  There was a UCLA professor there whose child was interested in my college.  He stood up and said that he was very interested in having the kid graduate in 4 years because that was something that wouldn't be happening at UCLA.  I guess things there are still the same.