Non Covid deaths but are deaths due to Covid

[SquirrellyMama]

I heard about a death recently due to a ruptured abdominal aortic aneurysm. His surgery had been rescheduled due to a ban on "elective" surgeries during the pandemic. He died last week before he could have surgery.

I personally know someone that was supposed to have a biopsy done when elective surgeries were banned. I would have been really scared. A lot can happen with the spread of cancer in 2 months. I know it does depend on the type of cancer.

I wonder how many people died due to Covid, but not because they had Covid?

Kelly

[City Mouse]

I saw a really, really sad video (I think it was a news report, but I’m not sure) about a 12 yr old boy who committed suicide recently. The father attributed the suicide to social isolation.

[PrincessMommy]

@SquirrellyMama    I don't know but I'm sure there is a body of evidence being gathered.  I have a friend whose dad has put off testing procedures... whether it means it will be too late is not yet known.  She's leaving tomorrow to be with him in another state because his symptoms have progressed and now she's pretty worried 😞   She's one year out from her own cancer dx so she must be very concerned.

I heard of a couple of people (friends of friends) who have committed suicide during this.  It is awful.  

[PrincessMommy]

1 minute ago, happysmileylady said:

We will likely never know.  Deaths due to medical things like passing before surgery could happen will never be recorded with any reference to Covid.  And they shouldn't.....truth is those things have always happened.  Surgeries and treatments DO get rescheduled often due to any number of things....from insurance to hurricanes to family things, to whatever else.  It's really just an unknown, and all estimates of that sort of thing are little more than just guesses.

Now, deaths of things like suicide, drug overdoses, domestic violence....again, we can never know for sure.  I think however that those sorts of things might be easier to track since the immediate outcome is more under human control.  (please excuse my fumbling explaination) What I mean is....with many medical conditions, like cancer, etc.....it can often be only a little better than an educated guess.  Especially when we are talking about deaths that happen 2 months, 3 months, 6 months down the road.

But with things that happen in the present, like suicides, etc.....there's not a lot of guessing 3 months later.  The death is..........already recorded.  Of course, there is also NO way of knowing if the person who OD'd one night might not have OD'd if they had a job to be at work for, or whatever.  

 

So, basically, yeah, bringing it back around............we will just likely never know.  In 50 yrs, we might be able to look back, examine all the data with hindsight and come to some sort of conclusion, but for now.......it's all little more than educated guesses.  

What you said makes sense.  I suspect we will be able to compare the data for suicides just like we can see the uptick in deaths the first three months of 2020 compared with previous years.  Hopefully, we will have that information sooner than 50yrs.  But I agree that surgeries and life-extending treatments may be harder to quantify and attribute over to covid.   I guess we could compare year to year for any given death-reason (cancer, heart-attack,etc.)  and see if there is an unusual rise in 2020.  Perhaps that would give us a bit of an idea.  

[Ottakee]

This is a big worry here and in the groups I am in (medically fragile kids/adopted kids, etc).  Suicide and domestic violence are up in our area.

People aren't getting the tests they need that could save or enhance their lives if done in a timely manner 

The hospital here is opening up more and more so hopefully this won't be a big issue.

[EmseB]

Peditricians I follow on Twitter are really worried about a resurgence of vaccine preventable meningitis (other vpds too but that one in particular). The stat I've seen thrown around is that only about 20% of four month olds are current on their shots because parents are too scared to go in to the doctor.

[Ottakee]

30 minutes ago, EmseB said:

Peditricians I follow on Twitter are really worried about a resurgence of vaccine preventable meningitis (other vpds too but that one in particular). The stat I've seen thrown around is that only about 20% of four month olds are current on their shots because parents are too scared to go in to the doctor.

That is worrisome.  With less people vaccinating and then other that normally would delaying it missing the normal time frames we might see an increase in some otherwise preventable diseases.

Our doctor's office is doing their immunizations in the morning and doing well visits, etc.  Afternoons are for I'll patients.

[hjffkj]

37 minutes ago, EmseB said:

Peditricians I follow on Twitter are really worried about a resurgence of vaccine preventable meningitis (other vpds too but that one in particular). The stat I've seen thrown around is that only about 20% of four month olds are current on their shots because parents are too scared to go in to the doctor.

 

And here a lot of ppl I know with newborns haven't had their baby seen because their pediatrician's aren't taking appointments.  Of the 4 people I know personally with newborns it is 50/50 on whether they can get their baby seen. My almost 3 month old has had all her appt so far whereas my friends child born 2 days later hasnt been seen since he was a week old. then there are more ppl on local mom's group pages saying they can't get appointments either.  There are also some who are too scared.  It is a very strange time we live in

Edited May 11, 2020 by hjffkj

[EmseB]

5 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

 

And here a lot of ppl I know with newborns haven't had their baby seen because their pediatrician's aren't taking appointments.  Of the 4 people I know personally with newborns it is 50/50 on whether they can get their baby seen. My almost 3 month old has had all her appt so far whereas my friends child born 2 days later hasnt been seen since he was a week old. then there are more ppl on local mom's group pages saying they can't get appointments either.  There are also some who are too scared.  It is a very strange time we live in

The peds I follow are begging parents to come in for the shots. I don't know who these peds are that aren't doing immunizations but they may have had to furlough or close for financial reasons... it isn't because they are being mandated to cancel appointments.

[TechWife]

49 minutes ago, EmseB said:

Peditricians I follow on Twitter are really worried about a resurgence of vaccine preventable meningitis (other vpds too but that one in particular). The stat I've seen thrown around is that only about 20% of four month olds are current on their shots because parents are too scared to go in to the doctor.

I wish they could get a visit from a home health nurse for that, although having a nurse go in and out of homes has it's own risks. We may get to the point where we are doing outdoor immunization clinics, who knows?

[DesertBlossom]

I think it needs to be clarified that these are not deaths due to COVID, but deaths due to the response that governments had to COVID. 

[EmseB]

https://www.wptv.com/news/region-c-palm-beach-county/drownings-of-florida-children-have-doubled-over-the-same-time-last-year

I don’t know what this has to do with the pandemic but it's curious, especially when people talk about excess deaths.

[mumto2]

The opioid death rate is expected to climb sharply..........

[SquirrellyMama]

1 hour ago, DesertBlossom said:

I think it needs to be clarified that these are not deaths due to COVID, but deaths due to the response that governments had to COVID. 

I can see this distinction. But, I don't think every response has been wrong. I don't think all of these surgeries should have been rescheduled. 

Fortunately, "elective" surgeries in our state have started again.

[sassenach]

My friend who is an ICU nurse has treated a lot of people who did not come in right away for stroke, MI, or other major symptoms and suffered the consequences. She’s only had 1 Covid patient this whole time but many delayed treatment patients. 

[vonfirmath]

5 hours ago, EmseB said:

Peditricians I follow on Twitter are really worried about a resurgence of vaccine preventable meningitis (other vpds too but that one in particular). The stat I've seen thrown around is that only about 20% of four month olds are current on their shots because parents are too scared to go in to the doctor.

 

This is true. My husband's section's main job is recording information for newborn tests (the first years of the baby's life). They've been working half-time until last week and still being slow because the volume of tests to enter was down so much. 

 

[TravelingChris]

6 hours ago, StellaM said:

If medical health facilities were open for emergencies, but people didn't come in because they were too scared, despite being able to go in, and they died as a result, that's tragic, but it's not exactly the fault of coronavirus or government response. That's a human behaviour risk assessment fail.

Maybe a public health information fail, if the public was unaware that emergency treatment remained available.

People do have unexpected and adverse events while waiting for surgery in normal times.

Again, it's tragic when that happens, but it's not exactly uncommon even in non-plague times.

Re cancer treatments, all treatments* continued here.

I had one family member go through diagnosis, discussion of options and treatment being initated over March/April. 

I would imagine that if all cancer treatments ceased over a period of 8-12 weeks, there will be deaths attributable to the delay. Were all cancer treatments ceased over March-May in the US? If so, why?

Suicide, as we all know, is multi-factorial. Social isolation may be one factor, it may correlate with death by suicide. It may not be causative.

*edited to add not sure if all cancer-related surgeries went ahead. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, a lot of treatments were ceased.  Non essential got to mean in a lot of case non emergency,.  So cancer treatments, necessary life and limb saving surgeries, treatments for many diseases, organ transplants, etc were all canceled or delayed.

[mumto2]

This is probably the most interesting video I have watched discussing Covid by a Nobel Prize winning scientist who is a numbers guy.........there is a written summery which I skimmed and appeared to summarize decently.  Touches on many interesting aspects including deaths by other causes like cancer, love the R rate portion, and why Neil Ferguson’s numbers were so far off.  Well worth watching......

  https://unherd.com/thepost/nobel-prize-winning-scientist-the-covid-19-epidemic-was-never-exponential/   

 

 

Edited May 12, 2020 by mumto2

[historically accurate]

Just now, StellaM said:

So all chemo, all radiation, all biopsies etc?

And was that due to lack of PPE, or risk to patient, or...?

My friend's dd is still receiving chemo; it never stopped. My uncle who is in a different state than my friend's dd had most of his specialist appointments in person. So some things are still trucking along. DD has physical therapy, and I know they were still seeing surgery patients in person when the state shut down in late March. 

[LucyStoner]

22 hours ago, City Mouse said:

I saw a really, really sad video (I think it was a news report, but I’m not sure) about a 12 yr old boy who committed suicide recently. The father attributed the suicide to social isolation.

That is a very sad story but I am having a hard time buying the idea the family’s narrative that the child had zero previous or existing depression or other issues.  My heart breaks for the family and the child but I think there’s a degree of rationalization and blaming going on.  It’s understandable for the family to be doing that but it doesn’t make their version of events factually correct.  No one thing leads directly to suicide.  
 

 

Edited May 12, 2020 by LucyStoner

[LucyStoner]

20 hours ago, EmseB said:

https://www.wptv.com/news/region-c-palm-beach-county/drownings-of-florida-children-have-doubled-over-the-same-time-last-year

I don’t know what this has to do with the pandemic but it's curious, especially when people talk about excess deaths.

how awful.  I am wondering if there’s just a lot more time (perhaps unsupervised time) in family pools while kids are out of school and parents try to work from home?  

[Jaybee]

11 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

Yes, a lot of treatments were ceased.  Non essential got to mean in a lot of case non emergency,.  So cancer treatments, necessary life and limb saving surgeries, treatments for many diseases, organ transplants, etc were all canceled or delayed.

My sister is in your state. Her cancer treatments were not cancelled or delayed, and I believe the future protocols will be on schedule as well.

[LucyStoner]

ack, this reply showed up on the wrong thread.  Sorry.  

Edited May 12, 2020 by LucyStoner

[Ottakee]

28 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

That is a very sad story but I am having a hard time buying the idea the family’s narrative that the child had zero previous or existing depression or other issues.  My heart breaks for the family and the child but I think there’s a degree of rationalization and blaming going on.  It’s understandable for the family to be doing that but it doesn’t make their version of events factually correct.  No one thing leads directly to suicide.  
 

 

No it doesn't.  But on the flip side, a great many of the covid deaths are people who had other health conditions that were made worse by COVID.  Without COVID many of them would have died of pneumonia, kidney/liver failure, etc.

[LucyStoner]

27 minutes ago, Ottakee said:

No it doesn't.  But on the flip side, a great many of the covid deaths are people who had other health conditions that were made worse by COVID.  Without COVID many of them would have died of pneumonia, kidney/liver failure, etc.

I don’t see this as a flip side of diametrically opposing facts. I’m also not sure what a 12 year old hanging himself has to do with your point here.  Many things are wrong when a 12 year old boy wants to, has the means to and tragically  kills themself.  I’m not blaming the family.  They have suffered an absolutely catastrophic loss.  I also am very concerned about the mental health impacts of social isolation.  It’s definitely taking a toll on me and my family, all of whom are living with various mental health challenges.  I just don’t think that social isolation, on it’s own, would prompt a 12 year old to take his own life.  
 

I’m not in general persuaded that Covid is only or even mostly killing people who otherwise would have died over the same period.  

[EmseB]

18 minutes ago, kand said:

I actually don’t quite know the purpose of this thread. There are definitely going to be non-Covid deaths happening that wouldn’t have happened if not for Covid. There are also the reverse—car accidents and other deaths that won’t happen due to people staying at home. Is there a point to be made about that? It sucks, just like this whole thing does. I can’t wait for it to be over. 

The same reason there would be to talk about coronavirus deaths? Because there are tons of excess deaths being reported right now and it is disturbing? Because the pandemic is causing a lot of tangentially related problems for a lot of people that may not be appropriate for other threads where people want to discuss the virus directly? Because any time concerns get brought up about these issues they are dismissed in various ways by the same people for reasons I cannot fathom? A lot of these people would not have committed suicide or drowned or overdosed or whatever else had this pandemic not happened. I think it's okay to discuss that without being dismissed in the same way others might feel dismissed for preexisting conditions. I have a family member who can't go to his NA meetings because of all this. I don't know how that is going to shake out. He probably could have continued on as sober for many years without covid cancelling his meetings, but maybe not. Is there a point to talking about it? A purpose? I guess that depends on your perspective.

I also think there have been threads about unintended benefits of the shelter in place orders, which I don't find insensitive or pointless despite the death toll of the actual disease. People discuss things to cope and socialize. It seems sort of obvious.

I mean, if you find the thread pointless, why comment at all?

Edited May 12, 2020 by EmseB

[Ottakee]

56 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

 I just don’t think that social isolation, on it’s own, would prompt a 12 year old to take his own life.  
 

I’m not in general persuaded that Covid is only or even mostly killing people who otherwise would have died over the same period.  

I agree that it wasn't the isolation alone but the isolation prompted by the COVID was likely a contributing factor.    Also contributing might be (and I don't know the story but speaking from our experiences) that in person counseling was cancelled, remote counseling is severely limited, access to psychiatrists and mental health hospitals is all reduced as well due to COVID.

I know is several parents who are trying to get their child mental health services but are struggling even more now due to the current situation.

Isolation alone, likely no, many factors related to his Covid has changed our lives and access to mental health care, yes.

[73349]

.

Edited October 2, 2020 by Carolina Wren

[SquirrellyMama]

1 hour ago, kand said:

I didn’t actually say I found it pointless, I said I wasn’t sure what the purpose was. I didn’t mean that rhetorically, I meant I was wondering what point was being gotten at. And your explanation makes sense; I totally agree there are things like this that have and will happen and they are something to discuss. I guess I’ve been picking up a vibe that maybe isn’t accurate that people are using these examples as reasons we need to “cancel” the pandemic. 

I didn't start this as a reason to cancel the pandemic. People I know are using these stories as an example of government overreaction. 

I don't understand why the surgery for the abdominal aortic aneurysm and a cancer biopsy were put off for 2 months. 

Anothef reason I started it was stress. I really haven't had a lot of stress through this whole situation, but I saw the story about the gentleman's death in the middle of the night and had anxiety over it. 

Kelly

Edited May 13, 2020 by SquirrellyMama

[Sneezyone]

On 5/11/2020 at 7:44 PM, EmseB said:

The peds I follow are begging parents to come in for the shots. I don't know who these peds are that aren't doing immunizations but they may have had to furlough or close for financial reasons... it isn't because they are being mandated to cancel appointments.

 

I literally got a call from my kiddos' peds clinic last week. Both are up to date on vaccinations but they were asking about regular physicals.

[hopeallgoeswell]

4 hours ago, mumto2 said:

This is probably the most interesting video I have watched discussing Covid by a Nobel Prize winning scientist who is a numbers guy.........there is a written summery which I skimmed and appeared to summarize decently.  Touches on many interesting aspects including deaths by other causes like cancer, love the R rate portion, and why Neil Ferguson’s numbers were so far off.  Well worth watching......

  https://unherd.com/thepost/nobel-prize-winning-scientist-the-covid-19-epidemic-was-never-exponential/   

 

 

This was amazing!  Why are we not hearing things like this in mainstream media?

[TravelingChris]

8 hours ago, LucyStoner said:

I don’t see this as a flip side of diametrically opposing facts. I’m also not sure what a 12 year old hanging himself has to do with your point here.  Many things are wrong when a 12 year old boy wants to, has the means to and tragically  kills themself.  I’m not blaming the family.  They have suffered an absolutely catastrophic loss.  I also am very concerned about the mental health impacts of social isolation.  It’s definitely taking a toll on me and my family, all of whom are living with various mental health challenges.  I just don’t think that social isolation, on it’s own, would prompt a 12 year old to take his own life.  
 

I’m not in general persuaded that Covid is only or even mostly killing people who otherwise would have died over the same period.  

One study said that on average, people were losing 10 to 15 years of life.

[TravelingChris]

7 hours ago, Ottakee said:

I agree that it wasn't the isolation alone but the isolation prompted by the COVID was likely a contributing factor.    Also contributing might be (and I don't know the story but speaking from our experiences) that in person counseling was cancelled, remote counseling is severely limited, access to psychiatrists and mental health hospitals is all reduced as well due to COVID.

I know is several parents who are trying to get their child mental health services but are struggling even more now due to the current situation.

Isolation alone, likely no, many factors related to his Covid has changed our lives and access to mental health care, yes.

Actually, I am finding and so are a lot of people that access to mental health is increasing.  Insurance have eased telehealth rules, and lots of therapists are conducting sessions on line.  I have been looking for a therapist for a long time.  I just found one group online-- have my first televisit this Friday and have already taken advantage of a group meeting with regards to anxiety.    That is a paid resource but there are also a lot of unpaid group resources too.  In that meeting on anxiety,  I found out about a meeting place online for depressives and bipolar.  I also know that The Mighty is having free sessions every week ranging from painting class to relax, to talk sessions, to a counselor giving a talk about a topic.  

For a lot of us, the world has really opened up due to the pandemic.  So many of resources have gone online--- we can even see our doctors online.  I bet there are AA and NA groups online as well.

[Tanaqui]

10 hours ago, mumto2 said:

This is probably the most interesting video I have watched discussing Covid by a Nobel Prize winning scientist who is a numbers guy. There is a written summery which I skimmed and appeared to summarize decently.  Touches on many interesting aspects including deaths by other causes like cancer, love the R rate portion, and why Neil Ferguson’s numbers were so far off.  Well worth watching.

  https://unherd.com/thepost/nobel-prize-winning-scientist-the-covid-19-epidemic-was-never-exponential/  

 

Just because you have a Nobel prize in chemistry, that doesn't mean you know anything at all about medicine or epidemiology.

[LucyStoner]

1 hour ago, TravelingChris said:

One study said that on average, people were losing 10 to 15 years of life.

That’s very interesting.  
 

I am growing distressed by the implication that since it primarily affects older people and those with underlying conditions it’s somehow ok.  Besides it not being accurate, the lives of sick people and people with existing conditions and old people are important too.  Someone with asthma or high blood pressure isn’t more deserving of death other people.  Young people aren’t more valuable than old people.  As you point out, it’s simply not true that these are people that would have otherwise died this year,  

Edited May 13, 2020 by LucyStoner

[Janeway]

I might not be the popular one to say this, but I think the shut down needs to end. I feel we have collected our information. Even WHO is saying 3.4% death rate among those diagnosed, but that only 1 in 5 are diagnosed. That is conservative compared to other studies I have seen, such as that 1 in 16.5 are diagnosed. This means the death rate is more like between 3.4%/5  and 3.4/16.5. I can cite my source, or you can just do a search for number of asymptomatic cases and click on the WHO page and CNN and any others of interest. It just seems to be an odd illness where most people don't get sick at all, and somewhere between 0.6%-0.2% get sick enough to die and somewhere between 20%-6% get sick enough to suspect they have it and get a test. Does not seem to be enough to make it worth throwing the country in to something worse than the Great Depression as well as justify the depression, suicides, and all the other deaths like listed in this thread.

[Guest]

On 5/12/2020 at 9:22 PM, hopeallgoeswell said:

This was amazing!  Why are we not hearing things like this in mainstream media?

Well, if you were listening to Fox News and the President himself back in February, you would have heard exactly this in the mainstream media. Trump said the fifteen cases we had identified in the US would “soon be zero” and would “soon go away like a miracle.”

Quote

And again, when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done.

I read the article and don’t find it amazing; I find it disturbing. I also find it illogical. How can it be said that what happened, say, in Italy, is simply following a very similar mathematical curve as, say, Austria? In Italy, so many people were in need of care that medical personnel triaged first people less than 80 years old, and then people less than 60 years old, for priority care because it was not possible to treat everyone, so they focused their resources on saving younger people. Maybe I’m just significantly more emotional than a calloused statistician but I find that absolutely tragic! 

The main thing I find so egregious about theories like Mr. Levitt’s is that, if a country adopts that approach, and it is wrong, you can’t go back for a re-do. You can only look at 3,000+ dead people (as in Sweden) and go, “Wow. That sure sucked.” You can only say, after the fact as in Italy, “We made a mistake and 30,000+ people died.”  

Also, Mr. levitt's remark about how we have “allowed our population to grow” hints as some sort of greater-good eugenics type of thinking. I don’t know if he holds views that people should not have freedom to procreate as they desire, but that statement seems clearly not bent on preserving life but rather, accepting and allowing a big die-off of the old and weak. 

 

Edited May 14, 2020 by Quill
Adding links

[EmseB]

10 hours ago, Quill said:

Well, if you were listening to Fox News and the President himself back in February, you would have heard exactly this in the mainstream media. Trump said the fifteen cases we had identified in the US would “soon be zero” and would “soon go away like a miracle.”

I read the article and don’t find it amazing; I find it disturbing. I also find it illogical. How can it be said that what happened, say, in Italy, is simply following a very similar mathematical curve as, say, Austria? In Italy, so many people were in need of care that medical personnel triaged first people less than 80 years old, and then people less than 60 years old, for priority care because it was not possible to treat everyone, so they focused their resources on saving younger people. Maybe I’m just significantly more emotional than a calloused statistician but I find that absolutely tragic! 

The main thing I find so egregious about theories like Mr. Levitt’s is that, if a country adopts that approach, and it is wrong, you can’t go back for a re-do. You can only look at 3,000+ dead people (as in Sweden) and go, “Wow. That sure sucked.” You can only say, after the fact as in Italy, “We made a mistake and 30,000+ people died.”  

Also, Mr. levitt's remark about how we have “allowed our population to grow” hints as some sort of greater-good eugenics type of thinking. I don’t know if he holds views that people should not have freedom to procreate as they desire, but that statement seems clearly not bent on preserving life but rather, accepting and allowing a big die-off of the old and weak. 

 

I am surely not in favor of eugenics by any stretch of the imagination, just to get that out up front.

As I understand it, crudely because I'm no epidemiologist, every epidemic follows a bell shaped curve. Curves play out or look different in different countries for a variety of reasons, sheltering in place and lockdowns of varying degrees being only one of those variables, but the actual disease running its course has a certain trajectory that isn't really stopped minus a mutation or vaccine or some other severely  limiting factor. Deaths might be higher in some places, the spike might be more pointy in some places and more flat in others, but the spread follows a curve. That's just how they play out. That's why flattening the curve was never a quantifiable measure, but rather a representation of an idea that would vary based on local factors (population density, hospital capacity, average age, etc.). Of cours

Of course none of us get a redo on how we handled the pandemic. But as of right now, I don't see us drastically changing the number of deaths with shutdowns. We've shifted some of them to the right on the curve, but we've also acutely moved some to the left as well...try looking at what the curve looks like in NYC for nursing home residents. I think on either side of it, we will look back and say we made mistakes. I don't think it is as simple as saying that we locked down in a certain area so we didn't make a mistake there.

 

[mom31257]

How is a biopsy elective? I have a friend, who during the quarantine, had a biopsy, colon cancer was found and removed, and started chemo. She had to be alone at the hospital, but her procedures still happened. 

 

[Ottakee]

56 minutes ago, mom31257 said:

How is a biopsy elective? I have a friend, who during the quarantine, had a biopsy, colon cancer was found and removed, and started chemo. She had to be alone at the hospital, but her procedures still happened. 

 

I think it is different in different areas/states.  Some doctors offices are open, others closed.

I had some tests done recently for a cancer scare.  My doctor was open and did the tests right away.   We are now 11 days out though and test results that would normally be back in 2 days aren't back yet as the lab hasn't run them yet.

[ktgrok]

On 5/11/2020 at 6:59 PM, EmseB said:

Peditricians I follow on Twitter are really worried about a resurgence of vaccine preventable meningitis (other vpds too but that one in particular). The stat I've seen thrown around is that only about 20% of four month olds are current on their shots because parents are too scared to go in to the doctor.

I REALLY wish they would start offering to do these visits at the car, so parents don't have to go into the office at all. It would alleviate a lot of parental fears, and although it wouldn't be as good as an in office exam, ti would be better than no exam. I had to take DD in for that stupid rash, and I'm still bothered about going in. They have a sick side and a well side now, so you go in different doors and use different hallways, etc. Except...we were there for contact dermatitis, but that's "sick" so we had to be on the same side in the same rooms as the kids with respiratory symptoms, vomiting, etc. Oh, and of course they check the kids' temperatures but not the parents. so even on the "well baby" side you don't know that there were not sick parents, or asymptomatic ones, there. 

i would have been MUCH more comfortable with  a visit done outside. 

On 5/11/2020 at 9:03 PM, EmseB said:

https://www.wptv.com/news/region-c-palm-beach-county/drownings-of-florida-children-have-doubled-over-the-same-time-last-year

I don’t know what this has to do with the pandemic but it's curious, especially when people talk about excess deaths.

More kids home all day near the pool, and parents are trying to multitask. 

On 5/12/2020 at 5:15 PM, LucyStoner said:

how awful.  I am wondering if there’s just a lot more time (perhaps unsupervised time) in family pools while kids are out of school and parents try to work from home?  

yup

 

 

 

 

[ktgrok]

Are there people who find the isolation to be too much and are commiting suicide? I'm sure. How many are actually reacting to the worldwide pandemic, loss of life, etc versus isolation? No way to know. 

Also, how many people are now NOT commiting suicide, and are mentally doing better, because they are not in school being bullied? Is it more or less than the number being mistreated by parents they are stuck home with? I don't think we know. 

Women are being victims of domestic violence, possibly at higher rates. But, I'm betting the number of assaults on women in general is down, as they are not out and about, dating, at parties, bars, etc. 

Car accidents are down. But people are waiting too long to go to the Er. Which is higher? Can we know? I doubt it, not now anyway. 

I think when people point to the unintended consequences of this, they need to remember that they go both ways. Just like some are excercising less, but some are exercising more. Etc etc. 

[rebcoola]

12 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

They have a sick side and a well side now, so you go in different doors and use different hallways, etc. Except...we were there for contact dermatitis, but that's "sick" so we had to be on the same side in the same rooms as the kids with respiratory symptoms, vomiting, etc. Oh, and of course they check the kids' temperatures but not the parents. so even on the "well baby" side you don't know that there were not sick parents, or asymptomatic ones, there. 

i would have been MUCH more comfortable with  a visit done outside. 

That sucks.  Our doctors are only doing well child visits in office.  If you have something minor it will be telehealth.  If you are sick like when oldest had Covid type syptoms you went to an walk clinic. They have one reserved for only sick kids.  They have a different one reserved for injuries. 

[KungFuPanda]

On 5/11/2020 at 7:44 PM, EmseB said:

The peds I follow are begging parents to come in for the shots. I don't know who these peds are that aren't doing immunizations but they may have had to furlough or close for financial reasons... it isn't because they are being mandated to cancel appointments.

The peds themselves could be self-isolating because they are in a high risk group and shouldn't be working with the general public.  I'd be calling around to other pediatricians to see who is seeing patients.  

[EmseB]

1 hour ago, Ktgrok said:

I REALLY wish they would start offering to do these visits at the car, so parents don't have to go into the office at all. It would alleviate a lot of parental fears, and although it wouldn't be as good as an in office exam, ti would be better than no exam. I had to take DD in for that stupid rash, and I'm still bothered about going in. They have a sick side and a well side now, so you go in different doors and use different hallways, etc. Except...we were there for contact dermatitis, but that's "sick" so we had to be on the same side in the same rooms as the kids with respiratory symptoms, vomiting, etc. Oh, and of course they check the kids' temperatures but not the parents. so even on the "well baby" side you don't know that there were not sick parents, or asymptomatic ones, there. 

i would have been MUCH more comfortable with  a visit done outside. 

That sounds really poorly managed. I know some peds are doing visits in cars, but that's to keep out those with possible covid symptoms -- they get their swabs in their car. Our clinic has worked it out so that there just aren't as many appointments during the day. All well visits are in the morning and sick visits are in the afternoon. If your case is more acute than that, you head to urgent care or the ER. In any case, there was no one else in the waiting room when I was there and I was only there for a minute.

Plus, you get screened before you even go in the building, which is an entire clinic, not just a peds office. Parents, kids, anybody coming into the facility gets asked questions. If you fail the screening, you get sent to a tent for another screen and possibly a covid swab. If you are there for a covid test, you never go inside as the swab clinic is entirely outside in a tent.

[kiwik]

On 5/12/2020 at 11:49 AM, TechWife said:

I wish they could get a visit from a home health nurse for that, although having a nurse go in and out of homes has it's own risks. We may get to the point where we are doing outdoor immunization clinics, who knows?

It had my flu shot seated in my car in the carpark at my medical practice.  

[mumto2]

4 hours ago, kiwik said:

It had my flu shot seated in my car in the carpark at my medical practice.  

Inside my car would be better but last fall we had ours under an outdoor awning which we thought was great.  
 

A local radio station was advertising the hospital’s free flu shots and we decided to go to one with every intention of leaving if it was packed.  We drove up to that day’s location......a walk in clinic that had set up in the parking lot, parked as directed at the church next door.  We proceeded with our paperwork which we had printed and filled out at home, think we showed driver’s licenses, asked the basic allergic to eggs vaccination questions, then were directed to our nurse.....we all received it at the same time different nurses.  Handed our piece of paper that had the vaccine lot number and asked to stay in the area a few minutes before leaving.  It was the best flu shot experience ever! I am hoping this can be be repeated with vaccinations in the future.

[Pen]

On 5/14/2020 at 8:48 PM, Ktgrok said:

I REALLY wish they would start offering to do these visits at the car, so parents don't have to go into the office at all. It would alleviate a lot of parental fears, and although it wouldn't be as good as an in office exam, ti would be better than no exam. I had to take DD in for that stupid rash, and I'm still bothered about going in. They have a sick side and a well side now, so you go in different doors and use different hallways, etc. Except...we were there for contact dermatitis, but that's "sick" so we had to be on the same side in the same rooms as the kids with respiratory symptoms, vomiting, etc. Oh, and of course they check the kids' temperatures but not the parents. so even on the "well baby" side you don't know that there were not sick parents, or asymptomatic ones, there. 

i would have been MUCH more comfortable with  a visit done outside. 

More kids home all day near the pool, and parents are trying to multitask. 

yup

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah.  Outside would be good.  Our vet visit was essentially outside.  And that would be good for many a pediatric visit too.

of course the dog was probably not embarrassed about being seen by passers by without clothes on and no one would cite him for indecent exposure