Do you think states should open back up?

[sassenach]

8 hours ago, kiwik said:

Because you travel freely between states.  

Right, but it takes 3-4 days to cross the country so what happens in Idaho does not need to be the same as what happens in New York. I do agree that regions might need to be on the same page. 

[SKL]

10 hours ago, kiwik said:

Based purely in this forum the US doesn't seem to have actually shut.  People are discussing getting take aways, going to Walmart, hiking and a bunch of other things that don't sound very shut down to me.  Also it brings to the forefront how un-united the states are.  Unless you are going to completely shut and patrol state borders and enforce mandatory quarantine there is no point in doing it state by state.  The whole US has to get on the same programme.

That's basically like saying every EU country needs to be on the same program.

I would also note that other countries aren't handling things the same in every city either.

Edited April 14, 2020 by SKL

[Pen]

14 minutes ago, DoraBora said:

So, since NH residents who contract Covid-19 have a high risk of dying, alone and isolated, in a hospital, we'll keep them, alone and isolated, in skilled nursing to prevent them from becoming infected in the first place(?).

 

I have absolutely No idea how this is supposed to follow what I wrote. 

I had in mind people who currently live in skilled nursing facilities, where there has been a non visitation rule imposed federally. I think that rule should continue longer,  along with increased virtual visitation for all such residents, many of whom never get any visitors at all, even before CV19. 

What are you talking about?

[SKL]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

Another thing I think should stay as shut as possible as long as possible are nursing homes. Populations are too vulnerable and in too tight quarters.  I think both nursing homes for significant severe case transmission and schools for significant asymptomatic case transmission reasons should be kept to whatever forms of shut down can viably be managed. As long as possible. 

I think it is more important for them to figure out ways to safely allow visits.  It is so important that we not isolate people in that situation.  Isolation will hasten many deaths.

[SKL]

56 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

...

I think for people in facilities other forms of visiting need to be found for awhile, like virtual visits.  Many people in facilities are never visited at all even in non CV19 times. So visiting all residents virtually, those with lots of friends and relatives to visit usually, and those with none usually,  might help everyone to get some sense of contact with less risk.

The risk is not merely to the nursing home residents themselves or to them and their families.

It is very high risk to staff, high risk to fire department personnel, EMT, medics, law enforcement  and other respondents when there is emergency and thence to medical staff at hospitals, and from all of these to whole community. 

 

Maybe in addition to thinking about what an individual resident and family want in regard to visits, it needs to be thought through what happens if visitors with asymptomatic CV19 bring it in to facility and it then spreads quickly and widely in the facility also infecting staff (which has happened in a number of such facilities, not an unlikely hypothetical idea). With staff increasingly out sick or quarantined (or in hospital, or dead) there will be fewer and fewer people to take care of the nursing home population.  And it is already a hard job, not one likely to attract lots of new workers if there is a substantial likelihood of serious illness, possibly long term health damage or maybe even death from doing it. 

So there is “abandonment” by not making irl visits to be weighed against serious other risks of others getting severely ill, not wanting to care for nursing home patients and the like. 

But certainly for people who can do so to bring relatives home and care for them at home when able makes a great deal of sense. Then you don’t need to feel you have abandoned relatives (or old friends), and the risk taken on is relatively more controllable to within the family home. 

Virtual visits would be a nice addition for some residents, but it would not prevent neglect/abuse and would not be a substitute for in-person visits for the many who have impaired vision, hearing, and/or mental capacities.  Which are a high % of folks in those facilities.

Obviously protocols need to be used to prevent disease spread, but visits need to be reinstated asap.

Edited April 14, 2020 by SKL

[Pen]

8 hours ago, kiwik said:

True and it has worked well for a long time and still will in the future.  But what say one state pulls out all the stops and eradicates covid-19 (one of the states that is pretty low now for argument.  But the next state goes for a control method or maybe a herd immunity approach.  Can state A prevent people from State B bringing the virus in to state A? Or people going to state B to visit relatives and bring it back?  It just strikes me as problematic.  Hawaii I would not  expect to do the same thing and Alaska maybe to do more like Canada as that is who they share a border with. But the other states are physically connected.  

 

Connections are odd though. Mountain ranges may separate part of one state from another state more than two states are separated from each other.  Air travel can allow rapid travel between states that aren’t contiguous 

A state that were to eradicate the virus completely could issue quarantine rules, afaik, for arrivals from other states. Or perhaps close borders completely.  Either might be a problem for interstate supply lines. 

8 hours ago, kiwik said:

I think it will be state by state.  In NZ it may be some districts before others but with a travel ban and central control.  

And am I right in thinking Donald Trump can't order all the states to open as he said he would today any more than he can order them all to close?  It just doesn't seem to fit with everything else.

 

Legally?

Legally I think the President can do either under emergency powers due to National State of Emergency. I believe what Donald Trump and Mike Pence said about plenary powers of a President during National Emergency to be true.

I don’t think it will happen. I don’t think it will need to happen either way. 

[frogger]

I live in Alaska.  We have relatively few  border crossings (three I believe) but there isn't traffic really (I mean you could have 20 minutes without another car showing up at times) and I'm not sure what is happening since Canada and the US have had tensions over the border. All other traffic comes through the airport or ferry system so it would seem more economical to deal with it there. The other concern is out of state oil field workers and seafood processing workers come summer. 

 

We shut down very early but a large number of Alaskans follow conspiracy theories and look at the numbers with a magnifying glass. Inspecting the inside of your house for fires when all your neighbors homes have already burned seems silly to me but I'm afraid strategic opening is unfathomable to a large segment of the population up here. 

If the Govenor can somehow keep a handle on things and hold the people at bay for a little while we stand a chance of opening up regardless of other states. 

I would love to push it into May despite having only 30 in the hospital. The UW model says we passed peak death rate (we have only had 8 deaths overall) and peak resource use is supposed to be the 18th.  Our economy is hugely dependent on the summer season. Tourism will of course be dead but fishing, mining, construction, so many things ramp up in summer. As people come out of lock down I will probably stay isolated because I can. I realize that is a privalage I also realize that if a large percentage stay home anyway then it helps containment while others do what they need to do. 

 

Things that need to be implemented:

Mandated quarantines for travelers.

Policies for out of state workers who work in the oil field and seafood industries. 

Policies for seafood processors on a daily basis also. I'm not sure what this would be other than temperature checks but it would behoove owners to get managers and a disease specialist together to consult.

General guidelines for the public including no unneccessary gatherings, wear masks, general social distancing. 

People who can work at home should continue to do so. 

Businesses who can do curbside should continue to do so. 

Obviously better testing and such would also be a requirement to implement many of these things so I hope we can hold off a little while. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 14, 2020 by frogger

[DoraBora]

9 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

I have absolutely No idea how this is supposed to follow what I wrote. 

I had in mind people who currently live in skilled nursing facilities, where there has been a non visitation rule imposed federally. I think that rule should continue longer,  along with increased virtual visitation for all such residents, many of whom never get any visitors at all, even before CV19. 

What are you talking about?

You said that NH should be continue to be closed to visitors as long as possible, which is an understandable thought if one's only concern is extending life (by protecting those residents from infection) as long as possible.  But extending life for what purpose?  

My point is that many/most people in skilled nursing are at the ends of their lives already.  (I'm NOT suggesting that their lives are expendable, or worth less than those of younger people.)  I hear people (in my area) talking about keeping all senior living shut down until there is a vaccine.  What?  A lot of these folks might not live that long, even if they aren't infected with Covid-19.  Yes, they can receive virtual visits, but those can actually be quite disorienting for an elder person, particularly if he/she has memory issues.  So, NH residents are to live out their days in their rooms.  Keep in mind that eating in dining rooms and other group gatherings are not allowed under social distancing orders.  Doubtless TPTB will think it wise to extend those orders, too, at least in senior living places.  So residents will eat, sleep, and live in their rooms.  Alone (or sometimes with a roommate). 

I'm well aware that many NH residents don't have visitors, but some of us DO make visits to old people.  And my friends who have parents in skilled nursing like to visit frequently, popping in at odd times to keep an eye on their loved ones and staff.  It's so easy for elders to fall victim to abuse and neglect if no one is watching.

Just the opinion of someone who is around older folks quite a lot...

 

[frogger]

16 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Connections are odd though. Mountain ranges may separate part of one state from another state more than two states are separated from each other.  Air travel can allow rapid travel between states that aren’t contiguous 

A state that were to eradicate the virus completely could issue quarantine rules, afaik, for arrivals from other states. Or perhaps close borders completely.  Either might be a problem for interstate supply lines. 

 

 

 

 

I will add that this is actually a global problem for this very reason. 

[Pen]

6 minutes ago, DoraBora said:

You said that NH should be continue to be closed to visitors as long as possible, which is an understandable thought if one's only concern is extending life (by protecting those residents from infection) as long as possible.  But extending life for what purpose?  

My point is that many/most people in skilled nursing are at the ends of their lives already.  (I'm NOT suggesting that their lives are expendable, or worth less than those of younger people.)  I hear people (in my area) talking about keeping all senior living shut down until there is a vaccine.  What?  A lot of these folks might not live that long, even if they aren't infected with Covid-19.  Yes, they can receive virtual visits, but those can actually be quite disorienting for an elder person, particularly if he/she has memory issues.  So, NH residents are to live out their days in their rooms.  Keep in mind that eating in dining rooms and other group gatherings are not allowed under social distancing orders.  Doubtless TPTB will think it wise to extend those orders, too, at least in senior living places.  So residents will eat, sleep, and live in their rooms.  Alone (or sometimes with a roommate). 

I'm well aware that many NH residents don't have visitors, but some of us DO make visits to old people.  And my friends who have parents in skilled nursing like to visit frequently, popping in at odd times to keep an eye on their loved ones and staff.  It's so easy for elders to fall victim to abuse and neglect if no one is watching.

Just the opinion of someone who is around older folks quite a lot...

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

Agree. Schools should not be reopening physically now or summer sessions. (Except maybe unusual exceptions like nursing and medical schools). And probably not in fall

 

 

I agree that I think increased home health care where possible is a good idea. 

I think for people in facilities other forms of visiting need to be found for awhile, like virtual visits.  Many people in facilities are never visited at all even in non CV19 times. So visiting all residents virtually, those with lots of friends and relatives to visit usually, and those with none usually,  might help everyone to get some sense of contact with less risk.

The risk is not merely to the nursing home residents themselves or to them and their families.

It is very high risk to staff, high risk to fire department personnel, EMT, medics, law enforcement  and other respondents when there is emergency and thence to medical staff at hospitals, and from all of these to whole community. 

 

Maybe in addition to thinking about what an individual resident and family want in regard to visits, it needs to be thought through what happens if visitors with asymptomatic CV19 bring it in to facility and it then spreads quickly and widely in the facility also infecting staff (which has happened in a number of such facilities, not an unlikely hypothetical idea). With staff increasingly out sick or quarantined (or in hospital, or dead) there will be fewer and fewer people to take care of the nursing home population.  And it is already a hard job, not one likely to attract lots of new workers if there is a substantial likelihood of serious illness, possibly long term health damage or maybe even death from doing it. 

So there is “abandonment” by not making irl visits to be weighed against serious other risks of others getting severely ill, not wanting to care for nursing home patients and the like. 

But certainly for people who can do so to bring relatives home and care for them at home when able makes a great deal of sense. Then you don’t need to feel you have abandoned relatives (or old friends), and the risk taken on is relatively more controllable to within the family home. 

 

[DoraBora]

@Pen. I am aware that allowing visitors to nursing homes poses a risk to the wider community.  There are no easy answers.  I suppose if these residents die of lonliness or abuse and neglect, theirs will be the "invisible deaths" I've seen mentioned here. So there's that.

I do wonder who will make these virtual visits to ALL residents.  That could already be happening, but it isn't.

[Pawz4me]

8 in 10 would wait to resume activities after government lifts coronavirus restrictions

Quote

Slightly more than eight in 10 Americans said in a new poll that they would wait to resume normal activities even after the government lifts restrictions put in place to mitigate the spread of the coronavirus. 

Seventy-one percent of respondents said they would wait to see what happens with the novel coronavirus before resuming activities, according to the Gallup poll released Tuesday. 

An additional 10 percent said they would continue to limit contact with other people and limit their daily activities indefinitely. 

The poll found that only 20 percent of Americans said they would return to their normal activities immediately once restrictions are lifted. 

The views are split by party affiliation, with Republicans more likely to say they would resume their normal activities. The poll found 31 percent of Republicans said they would immediately resume their normal activities, while just 11 percent of Democrats and 19 percent of independents agreed. 

People who lived in small towns and rural areas were also more likely to say they would resume their normal activities immediately, at 23 percent, compared to just 15 percent of people in cities and 18 percent of people in suburbs. 

There is no difference in these views based on respondents’ household income or whether a person is employed, Gallup noted. 

Schools, restaurants and other nonessential businesses are shut across the country, and nearly every state has put in place stay-at-home orders. 

Public health officials have warned that the reopening of the economy will be a gradual process, and will differ by region. 

Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, said Sunday that a rollback on some of the restrictions could possibly begin in certain areas of the U.S. next month. 

Across the U.S. there are 582,594 confirmed COVID-19 cases and 23,649 deaths, based on data compiled by Johns Hopkins University. 

The Gallup poll was conducted by self-administered web surveys between April 3 and 5 with a random sample of 3,881 Americans who are members of the Gallup Panel. Gallup weighted sampled to correct for nonresponse. There is a 3 percentage point margin of error.

That's of course just one poll, but it certainly seems to indicate there's widespread bipartisan support for NOT rushing to re-open.

[Frances]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

The thing is that if we don't achieve herd immunity, the vulnerable people are going to be vulnerable that much longer.  I think it is more dangerous to them if we let this thing go on indefinitely because of healthy people being afraid to catch it.

We are learning more and more about how this virus spreads and what people can do to prevent the spread and mitigate the effects before and during a case.  More masks and hand washing, fewer handshakes etc ... these can be done without shutting down the whole world.

I am among the people who have no desire to get vaccinated against this.  For most people, getting the virus itself could be less dangerous than getting a vaccine.  For those who want a vax, it's great that they're developing one, but a vax is not the ultimate solution for everyone.  That aside from the fact that it will take a long time before people can trust a new vax.  And keeping humans apart that long is literally dangerous.

Do you have a link for the research showing that for most people getting the virus would be less dangerous than getting a vaccine?

[Frances]

32 minutes ago, DoraBora said:

@Pen. I am aware that allowing visitors to nursing homes poses a risk to the wider community.  There are no easy answers.  I suppose if these residents die of lonliness or abuse and neglect, theirs will be the "invisible deaths" I've seen mentioned here. So there's that.

I do wonder who will make these virtual visits to ALL residents.  That could already be happening, but it isn't.

Many states, including mine, have robust volunteer long care ombudsman programs. In regular times, most facilities and residents are visited weekly and are free to contact their facility’s ombudsman at any time. These volunteers can enter their facilities any time, day or night, with no notice. They are advocates for the residents and extra eyes and ears for spotting abuse or neglect. I know they are already doing some virtual visits here.

Edited April 14, 2020 by Frances

[SKL]

7 minutes ago, Frances said:

Do you have a link for the research showing that for most people getting the virus would be less dangerous than getting a vaccine?

The high percentage of asymptomatic cases proves that, unless the vax has zero side effects (unlikely).

[Frances]

3 minutes ago, SKL said:

The high percentage of asymptomatic cases proves that, unless the vax has zero side effects (unlikely).

I’m guessing most scientists and healthcare providers would disagree with you. But it’s a bit of a mute point, since we don’t yet have a vaccine.

[ktgrok]

3 hours ago, GGardner said:

Meanwhile, in Florida... the State of Florida has decreed that professional sports with "national audiences" are an essential service, and as such, are allowed to operate, as long as there are no spectators.  The wresting company WWE is set to broadcast live from their Florida studies this week.  There will be no audience, but lots of performers, announcers, cameramen, etc.  So, I don't think the US is "locked down" in the same way that other parts of the world are.

That may be the most "florida" thing I've seen Florida do so far with this situation. Sigh. (I'm a native Floridian, so I get to knock my own state, lol)

[DoraBora]

18 minutes ago, Dotwithaperiod said:

 I am glad that so many seem concerned about nursing home residents now. If we are strictly debating here, though, possibly dying alone because of lockdown or dying of  Covid then I would choose alone without the virus, because it’s a horrible, painful, choking death. 

The abuse IMO, if it’s there it’s there with or without isolation, as I would guess a large majority never ever have visitors. I know there are crafts and get together and common areas, but let’s face it. Do you wonder why most are in wheelchairs? They put them in them on purpose as a way of controlling their movement. Most residents get wheeled out to sit in a corner for awhile, get wheeled to the table, then put back in their room after lunch.A tiny, tiny percentage actually socialize. Those are more of the assisted living type places. Walk in to s nursing home where most residents are using Medicaid to pay and you will see old people hunched over in their chairs, some will be crying, others staring at nothing, a few talking. Employees get minimum wage and it shows. It’s a constant struggle for those trying to do good. I’m sure there are areas with better monitoring but the overall shape of the system is abysmal.

I really don’t think many people have much experience with nursing homes. We are essentially debating the lesser of two evils, and I think death by Covid is more evil. And what a soul crushing thing it is to be needing this type of debate.

True.  Even the nicest nursing homes are sad places.  It isn't uncommon for patuents to be sedated to make them easier to handle.  It can be awful.

I'm just thinking an across-the-board policy of no visitors is a mistake.  Some of us do visit, even if we don't have family members living there.  A number of these folks might be briefly amused by virtual visits, but they won't really understand them.  

Agreed that Covid sounds like a very hard way to go.  I don't know that I would choose to live out my days in isolation to avoid all risk of contracting it, though.  I guess I wouldn't have much say in the matter.  

[TechWife]

Do you think states should open back up? 

Not necessarily. It's complicated.

Do you think it should be done state by state or all states at the same time?

It should be done based upon the health of the population and when the necessary testing, contact tracing and medical supports are in place.

What do you think should open back up? 

Family court - custody, child support, guardianship hearings, etc. need to take place here. Those arrested for suspected crimes deserve due process. Most civil suits could go on hold - but personal injury suits would be hard to hold if people need their settlements for medical/housing/transportation reasons.

Then we should make sure all of the infrastructure is functioning - state, county, city/town services should be fully staffed and functional.

If the medical system is in good shape and testing & contact tracing are in place, then in person physician visits and non-emergency surgeries could resume.

I actually think more consumer oriented things should close. There are businesses that aren't "essential" being labeled as such and a lot of people are out and about getting landscaping mulch,  convenience foods from restaurants, coffee at the drive thru, etc. I also think it would be helpful to stagger grocery shopping on some type of odd even basis with necessary exceptions. Most people really don't need to go to the grocery store more often than once a week unless they don't have refrigeration - and, people who don't have refrigeration should be provided with it whenever possible.

What do you think should stay closed? 

Clothing stores, entertainment venues, hobby stores, electronics stores, gyms (unless for physician ordered rehab). Basically, anything that can be provided through online or telephone ordering and delivery.

What modifications do you think should be made if things open back up?

Assuming testing, contact tracing and medical support are in place:  Staggered shopping hours; fewer children per room in daycare and schools (which may lead to staggering school hours, days, months, etc.); get rid of the open office concept;  paid leave when you or your children are sick; higher pay & better working conditions for medical professions, grocery store employees, transportation workers, etc.; allow limited, screened visitors in nursing homes and other long term care facilities.

Has your state peaked yet? 

No, but  I think the concept of "peaking" will lead to a false sense of security and risky behavior.

Does your state have a plan for opening back up? 

Not that I am aware of.

Is your job (or dh's) been effected by Covid? 

Yes, my husband is not traveling and is working from home, his office is closed.  He is working as many hours as he did before. The hospital where I volunteer has suspended all volunteer activity, so I haven't been in for more than a month. This also means volunteer fundraising is suspended, although grant applications are not (the board can vote on them by email).  I am teaching my Bible study online instead of in-person and decided to extend the study for a "late spring" semester, where I had planned to stop the first week in April until the fall.

Have you or anyone in your family had Covid? 

Not that we are aware of.

If your state opens back up, how will you behave?    Stay home, go out to everything, only some things? 

It will depend on too many factors to even guess at this. Testing, contract tracing and medical supports need to be in place before I would consider moving around without thoughtful consideration.

 

 

 

 

[ktgrok]

3 hours ago, Pen said:

Another thing I think should stay as shut as possible as long as possible are nursing homes. Populations are too vulnerable and in too tight quarters.  I think both nursing homes for significant severe case transmission and schools for significant asymptomatic case transmission reasons should be kept to whatever forms of shut down can viably be managed. As long as possible.  

 

The problem is that unless we have all the doctors, nurses, aids, janitors, receptionists, activity directors, cafeteria workers, etc etc move in and stay there for the duration, there is no way to keep them truly shut down. If everything is opening up, and the lady who comes into each room to collect the laundry went to the movies and got exposed, or a bar, she will expose all the residents. The only way to protect the residents is to protect the workers. 

2 hours ago, SKL said:

 

I am among the people who have no desire to get vaccinated against this.  For most people, getting the virus itself could be less dangerous than getting a vaccine. 

I don't know of a single vaccine we give routinely that has a hospitalization rate anywhere near this virus. 

1 hour ago, Happymomof1 said:

I am agreeing with you and something I have been trying to figure out.  So no congregational singing or responsive readings.  So we sit 6 feet apart and listen to a solo and a sermon...  That doesn't feel much like church to me..  Again, I am NOT saying we should meet.  I'm just saying I don't know how we will do virtual for 2 years or more.  We will, but man, I will miss real church.  Because hugging my people, singing at the top of my lungs with everyone else, being in the same room for communion...THAT is church to me.     Again... I understand,  please don't beat me up.  I'm not saying we should meet.  I am just saying that has been a HUGE part of my life.  And the choir.. I' have been a member of my choir for 24 years.  Others have been members for 40 or more years.  I am mourning that loss NOT saying we should be doing it.  But man, it stinks.

I know, it's so sad. This might help, it's the message from this Easter from Bishop Michael Curry, about how this doesn't FEEL like Easter. But we keep doing "what love does". 

 

33 minutes ago, SKL said:

The high percentage of asymptomatic cases proves that, unless the vax has zero side effects (unlikely).

I'd say most vaccines have an even higher percentage of "asymptomatic cases". And a whole lot lower hospitalization rate. 

[Paige]

59 minutes ago, Dotwithaperiod said:

 

I really don’t think many people have much experience with nursing homes. We are essentially debating the lesser of two evils, and I think death by Covid is more evil. And what a soul crushing thing it is to be needing this type of debate.

It's a false choice- it's not one or the other. We can choose to mitigate the risks as best as possible. I think banning visitors to prisons, detention centers, and care facilities cannot be a long term solution. There's too much risk. We can have one visitor at a time policies, PPE for staff and first responders, masks for visitors and residents, temperature checks, and probably more creative ways to increase safety. It makes sense to ban visits now, but like the rest of the economy, keeping them locked up indefinitely is not ok. I hope those in charge are working to get plans in place so we can protect everyone as much as possible from Covid and from the damage and risks of and from this lockdown.

More visits and contact with the outside does reduce abuse. Family members notice what residents cannot say. Virtual visits that are always scheduled, only show what staff wants shown, and conducted in the presence of staff cannot replace in person contact. Also, many residents could not benefit much from virtual visits. DH's grandmother appreciated our attempts but couldn't hear or see us well through the ipad. 

[Pen]

14 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

The problem is that unless we have all the doctors, nurses, aids, janitors, receptionists, activity directors, cafeteria workers, etc etc move in and stay there for the duration, there is no way to keep them truly shut down. If everything is opening up, and the lady who comes into each room to collect the laundry went to the movies and got exposed, or a bar, she will expose all the residents. The only way to protect the residents is to protect the workers. 

 

My post about nursing homes was an additional thought to my original reply to OP.  I had already written that I am against movie theaters etc opening. I didn’t explicitly mention bars, but I am against that too for the time being. 

It is true that a bubble system like iirc is in NZ (@kiwik ? Do u know?) with staff staying at nursing home might be safer, but I don’t think likely to be feasible for USA. 

Again, I am not only concerned about the residents but also about staff, and responders to emergency calls, and medical staff etc. 

 

[Pen]

 

10 minutes ago, Paige said:

PPE for staff and first responders, masks for visitors and residents,

 

That would help.  But we don’t seem to be there yet.  

Not just PPE for staff, but training in proper use.

and certainly not things like on some thread where staff are told to wear their masks first one side out and then turned around the opposite. 

[TechWife]

6 hours ago, Fifiruth said:

As much as one would like to believe that science is the only consideration in the decisions being made, the reality is that there is a lot of political posturing going on. The governors should want to cooperate and work together with each other and the president because we are one country, and the borders of each state have to stay open, and the free movement of people and commerce is legally required.

Commerce isn't legally required. There are also times when the free movement of people has been legally restricted.

The power play by certain governors on the east and west coasts is all about politics, IMHO.  They are not separate countries so they can act like they are going to break away and do their own thing, but they cannot stop interstate commerce, movement of people, nor even airline flights.  Those are under the authority of the executive branch (president.) They also cannot interfere with private contracts,  so the governors cannot require a landlord or loan holder to suspend the collection of rent and loan payments. They can’t even suspend evictions indefinately, as much as they’d like to. 

State governors can indeed stop the movement of people and shut down their airports. Airports are locally owned entities - ours is owned by an "airport authority," others are owned by the cities, counties and/or states in which they are located. I am unaware of any non-military airport owned by the federal government. That doesn't mean there aren't any, just that I haven't heard of this. I am uncertain what you mean by interstate commerce being under federal authority. This is a capitalist economy, and absent specific laws, such as labor laws, I am unaware of any federal law that regulates trade between states. That's a bit crazy. Individual jurisdictions can, and have, close(d) down the courts that process evictions, meaning there is no way for a landlord to evict people legally in those jurisdictions. 

ETA: The Interstate Commerce Act gives Congress the power to do things like regulate interstate transportation (highways, railways, airways, that cross state borders) and gives them the ability to do things like enact labor & consumer safety laws. In turn, Congress delegated only the ability to mandate that individual companies produce and sell specific goods to the President under very specific circumstances through the War Powers Act. However, neither Congress nor the President has the power to demand that any one company open and/or close (in other words, they can't determine business hours), or that they sell their normal goods across state lines in normal supply chains in normal circumstances. I doubt the War Powers Act could be used to mandate that a restaurant open and sell it's regular menu to a local population that has a ready food supply from other sources available, for example.

It’s up to the president to allow a governor to declare a state of emergency, which gives the governor more power and federal money. I don’t know if the president can rescind the granting of a state of emergency. 

No, a governor can declare a state of emergency on his/her own. It is in no way the president's decision.  If the president doesn't approve it, then they won't get federal funds. In fact, a governor must declare a state of emergency in order to apply for those federal funds.

ETA: For example, in my state, when a governor declares a state of emergency, it puts anti price-gauging regulations in place that lead to stiff penalties for companies or individuals that engage in those practices. Each state can vary what in means for their own state to be under a state of emergency for the purpose of state funding, distribution of emergency resources, declaring some school days don't have to be made up, etc..

The U.S. has always had an interesting balance of power between the people,  mayors, governors, county officials, state legislatures, congress, the president, and the judges at various levels. It has been designed to keep excessive power in check. A lot of things are being done that are unconstitutional, but the people have allowed them to be done and gone along with it for the sake of stopping large numbers of deaths. 

No, you misunderstand. There is no "check and balance" between federal and state governments. There are local, state and federal laws. They can all be challenged on the basis of their constitutionality, whether that be the State or US constitution. There is an ignored phrase in the preamble of the US constitution - "promote the general welfare" - this means a lot of things are constitutional that people are currently complaining about.

The president has said that the economic task force will be giving governors guidance and recommendations for how to safely, and step by  step open the country. Dr. Birks said that she has already been working with the states’ health officials on getting testing, quarantines, and contact tracing in place in order to keep the virus from breaking out as people reenter society. She has a lot of experience with doing this with HIV, and yesterday, called upon those she works with to teach and instruct their local communities on how to do it successfully (and without violating individuals’ rights, I might add.) 

Testing and contract tracing should have been in place weeks ago, like it was in other countries. There are serious deficiencies in this arena - one of them being funding, another being the logistics of procurement and distribution. There are existing public health professionals in all states and many (all?) counties - public health is a well-established profession. These folks have been teaching and instructing at the local level for generations  - often without violating individual rights. Unfortunately, public health hasn't always had a stellar record where rights are concerned, but other legal actions (such civil rights laws), have forced it upon them.

I think that if everyone works together we can successfully reopen society to a level that is a good balance between economic, medical, and mental health. 

Mental health is medical health - the distinction is false.  I'm not sure what it means to balance economic & health without deciding, at some level, to ration care for the sake of money. If that is the case, then there should be a long, robust discussion in the larger society and there need to be a lot of ethical people involved in the discussion at the highest levels. We have a lot of resources in this country, even now. We need to use them wisely and put people first. After all, a sick population not only has a financial cost for care, it has an impact on the overall character of the community in many ways,  and dead people neither generate or spend money. The economy is there to serve the people, not the other way around.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 14, 2020 by TechWife

[SKL]

Yes, I agree we are not yet ready to open the nursing homes, but it should be a priority to get ready for that.

I feel similar about youth detention centers, though it might make more sense to find a different (non-group facility) solution for as many youth as possible.

Along similar lines, I think we need to figure out how we can go back to having funerals, at least for close family members.  And visits in hospitals even if your person has COVID19 (especially if it is serious).  There has to be a way.  We just aren't quite there yet.

[TechWife]

4 hours ago, Pen said:

Another thing I think should stay as shut as possible as long as possible are nursing homes. Populations are too vulnerable and in too tight quarters.  I think both nursing homes for significant severe case transmission and schools for significant asymptomatic case transmission reasons should be kept to whatever forms of shut down can viably be managed. As long as possible.  

 

Yes - this is a serious problem in our state. I know there are many people in nursing homes that have no family that could care for them, so perhaps an adult foster care system is needed. Also, supports for families who do bring their loved ones home - financial, material and help with caring for people. The US truly lacks in this area. Nursing homes should also have private rooms and meals should, at this point, be served in rooms, not in dining rooms (perhaps they are doing this, I don't know).

[rebcoola]

Do you think states should open back up? no

Do you think it should be done state by state or all states at the same time? state by state.  

What do you think should open back up? I think any business that can submit a suitable plan should be allowed to reopen.  

What do you think should stay closed? Anything that can't be modified.  Things with big groups like concerts, sports etc.

What modifications do you think should be made if things open back up? masks, small groups, more cleaning, better sick policies.

Has your state peaked yet?  Maybe

What state are you in?  Washington

Does your state have a plan for opening back up? They are announcing it today

Is your job (or dh's) been effected by Covid? Mostly no.  He gets to work from home for training week because that's not essential.  The rest of the time he is essential so goes on as usual.

Have you or anyone in your family had Covid? Hubby and oldest DD may have it they are being triaged today to see if they qualify for testing.

If your state opens back up, how will you behave?    We will probably go back to some activities but not others.  Stay away from the gym.  But maybe do track and shooting if they have good plans since it's outside.

[QueenCat]

4 hours ago, Paige said:

Do you think states will be forced to reduce class sizes in public schools before reopening? 

 

I think it would be difficult... I know our school building doesn't have any empty classrooms.

[Storygirl]

5 hours ago, Pen said:

Another thing I think should stay as shut as possible as long as possible are nursing homes. Populations are too vulnerable and in too tight quarters.  I think both nursing homes for significant severe case transmission and schools for significant asymptomatic case transmission reasons should be kept to whatever forms of shut down can viably be managed. As long as possible.  

 

My mother lives in a nursing home. A staff member has tested positive, and all the residents have been tested. We don't have the results back yet. My mom is at Great Risk.

So I have a personal stake. I agree that nursing home residents need to be protected, and I agree with the current closure.

However, it is complicated. The staff comes and goes, so there are still many possible points of entry for the virus every day. In the meantime, the residents are losing the protection that they usually have from nursing home abuse and neglect when family members are able to visit and make sure that all is well with their loved one. Without knowing that families are able to check, care levels may drop. Even though my mom is in a highly regarded place, it is a big concern of mine.

So would I be okay with not being able to see my mom at all until a vaccine is available? As in, I would not be able to see her for a year or more? No, I'm not okay with that. For some residents, it is still possible to communicate with their relatives through social media, but it's not possible for my mom, and for many others, who are nonverbal and unaware of their surroundings.

It's going to be complicated for health officials to balance this.

[caedmyn]

I think things should open up on a state by state basis (area by area even), just as they shut down.  I definitely think my state should open up.  I don’t think people are going to comply well if the governor extends the shutdown again.  We have less than 400 cases for the state and 7 deaths (Montana).  They’re saying we’re already past our peak.  I live in the 3rd largest county and there are 13 cases here.  This is NOT worth the economic cost or disruption to lives cost here.  If there’s a plan to open back up, it’s not being publicized.  The current stay at home orders extend to the 24th.  Use some caution, start slow, fine, but things need to open back up here.

Dh's job has been affected (much less work) but is considered essential so he still goes to work.  I don't know anyone who has had COVID.  If things open back up I’ll encourage hand washing (though frankly it seems like a lost cause here...1 yo sucks his thumb and 7 yo picks his nose constantly, plus my 11 yo is always putting stuff in his mouth so chances are good someone would touch their nose or mouth before I could have them wash their hands) and use common sense but we’ll resume our normal life as much as we can.  Everyone here is low risk and I am not particularly worried about it for us.  

[Garga]

Closing state borders:

Closing borders of states just because those are the lines on the map doesn’t make sense. I live in PA a mere 4 miles from the MD border.  I know quite a number of people who live in PA and work in MD.  It’s not like they embark on some grand adventure to “cross state lines” to go to work.  They drive 4 miles down the road and there they are. There are a bunch of dinky little back roads that weave between the two states and so you don’t even always know when you’ve crossed from one into another. There aren’t big signs like on a freeway. I know people who have doctor’s offices in both MD and in PA and the doctor bounces between offices to treat patients in both states. If you live near a border, there’s a good chance you work in one state and live in another.  

My point is that closing borders just because it’s a clean line on a map won’t necessarily solve any problems.  And it’ll probably create problems if people can’t get to work if there aren’t outbreaks in either area.  Closing down hotspots is a better idea.  If that means that an area that straddles two states must be closed, fine. Or if it means only closing the center of a state, fine. But closing down borders because they’re borders will end up complicating things.  

——-

Nursing homes:

These are depressing places. For about 15 years, I went with my church to visit a local nursing home and provide a church service for them. The first couple of times we went, I came home sobbing. People spend decades building a life for themselves and collecting a household of things they love and they spend their weekends hanging out with friends and spend years raising children, only to be left sharing a single small room with a stranger and having a single shelf to display anything they loved.  And then the staff steals the tiny bit they have left (theft from staff is rampant.)  By the 2nd time I went, I told my dh, “I can’t go back! It’s just too sad!” He said, “And it will be even more sad if people like you and me refuse to go.”  

I don’t know an answer for nursing homes, but simply shutting people up in them for a year or more in basically solitary confinement is more horrible than a lot of people might understand.  Like I said, I don’t have an answer, but this one isn’t as easy as, “Just keep them isolated so they stay safe.”  Nursing homes are very, very depressing places as it is. Being stuck in a single room all by yourself for a year, while being frail and probably in some sort of pain, is a nightmare.

As we speak, I have a vibrant, dear friend who is in the hospital and heading to a rehab facility (which is another word for nursing home) because he fell on Sunday and broke his femur and had to have his hip replacement repaired.  He’s 73, still works a full time job, and isn’t some “old guy.” He and his wife are my friends. Not pets or an unwanted family member that I feel obligated to spend time with. Friends-equals, even though we’re over 20 apart in age. I hang out with Janet (the wife) at least once a week just because she’s fun. She’s calm, non-judgy, progressive, and awesome and so is he! But he’s at work so much that it’s harder to get time with him.  

But now...no one can visit the husband. I know that in the rehab place they’ll treat him like he’s some sort of idiot, because I’ve seen it time and time again.  People who have wrinkles and gray hair get treated like they’re completely demented at these places, even if they’re vibrant and full of life and have everything to offer that a 34 yo has to offer.  And it’s driving me nuts knowing that no one is there going to be there to advocate for him.  Once they see his wrinkles and gray it’ll be sing-songy voices and they won’t pay him a lot of attention when he talks to them.  

When Janet was in the rehab place for a knee surgery, her husband could come in and make sure they were listening to her and not just acting like, “Eh, she’s just some old woman who can’t think clearly, pat her on the head and move on.” He could make sure she was treated like a real person.

I don’t know. This is hard. I’m just venting at this point because I’m still very upset that he’s heading to rehab in a couple of day (still in hosp right now) and no one can advocate for him.  His wife is pretty upset that she can’t be by his side.  And again, these aren’t dottering people who don’t know what’s going on.  These are intelligent, vibrant people.

When he fell and broke his leg, the medics came to take him to the hospital and he kept asking them, “You guys aren’t going to take me to the hospital and let me die?  I keep hearing that they’re just letting the old people die.”  I hate it that my friend felt that he had to ask that question. They assured him, “NO!  It does NOT work that way!” 

——-

Going out:  Whether or not things open up, I don’t want to go out.

We “attend” church online right now and it’s not the same at all so I’ll miss that, but I still won’t go.  The rows are very close together with little leg room, so we’re all breathing right on top of each other, and it’s always a packed house, so you can’t help but sit right next to others.

I take hapkido lessons. Hapkido teaches you what to do if someone grabs you or punches at you, so we are very close to each other the entire time, touching each other. You can’t do martial arts without grabbing someone, unless it’s some sort of kicking only martial art.  And even then, you’re pretty close unless your legs are 6 feet long!  I’ve read a few posts by some of the other hapkido people in my class and a number of them are of the persuasion that it’s all being overblown, so they’ll be back to class if it opens, but I won’t.  I’m going to keep paying because I use the online videos the owner put out for us, and because I don’t want him to go bankrupt, but I won’t attend in person until I get a sense that it’s safe.  

The problem is my sons.  If the Wednesday night youth group opens, they might want to go back to that.  They each get together with a group of their friends every Saturday to hang out.  (DS17 does DnD at a friend’s house, DS15 has friends come here to play video games). If the friends are ready to get together, they’re going to feel a strong pull to go.  These get-togethers involve sitting in small rooms around a little table or in front of a tv screen, all breathing on each other.  We’re probably going to have problems here if I say, “I don’t want you to go out with your friends.”  I am going to cross that bridge when we come to it.  Some of their friends’ families are more cautious like me, but others are of the “eh-it’s all being overblown” mindset, so there will probably be tension there and a hard decision to be made.

Edited April 14, 2020 by Garga

[kiwik]

6 hours ago, Paige said:

Do you think states will be forced to reduce class sizes in public schools before reopening? 

I am wondering about that here.  I have long wished for part time schooling and would be really happy with ds13 attending each class twice a week rather than 4 times which would allow them to halve class sizes. They are talking about opening the schools to the kids of essential workers first (they also went an extra couple of days before the lockdown)

[TechWife]

3 hours ago, QueenCat said:

 

I think it would be difficult... I know our school building doesn't have any empty classrooms.

Staggering hours of attendance and quarters would add options - year round schools add quite a bit of capacity. Our schools are over crowded and year round schools are a common go-to to expand the number of available seats. Also, the number of days/hours required could be lowered - many of those requirements are random. Instead, they determine what the most important parts of the curriculum are, start there and add anything else as it is needed. Also, a combination model of part in school and part independent study at home could be employed for some grades and subjects.

 

[Pen]

I’m not sure that “State” is necessarily the best unit division with regard to a viral infection in many ways.  For example, my state, Oregon’s largest city, Portland is right by the Washington state border and it doesn’t make sense to have different rules for the two areas, or indeed much of the two states.  OTOH, the eastern end of my state may be more similar to Idaho where the two are contiguous, and because of a mountain range may be relatively little affected by what is happening in the western part of the state. 

Parts of California may be very similar to Oregon, Nevada, or Arizona (and some parts may have relatively low amounts of CV19–Mojave desert?  I’d guess it to be low, but maybe like some of the Navajo areas of New Mexico it is actually higher than I would have expected ), while other parts, by city or county rather than whole state may still be at significant risk of surging back up. 

[Donna]

Do you think states should open back up?  Not yet. I would feel better with widespread testing, quarantining those who test positive, and contact tracing abilities in place.

Do you think it should be done state by state or all states at the same time? I think it should be state by state or region by region depending on numbers of new cases and resources available to treat patients.

What do you think should open back up? Initially, jobs where people work outside/alone or in small numbers like certain construction jobs, landscaping, etc... then gradually open gradually larger and larger work places. Getting people, especially poorer people and more at risk people, back to work as soon as it is safe to do so should be a priority. Also, parks and outside venues where people can exercise and be active while maintaining social distance.

What do you think should stay closed? Places where large groups gather should remain closed longer. 

What modifications do you think should be made if things open back up? Mask wearing and maintaining distance.

Has your state peaked yet? I don't think so.

What state are you in? NC

Does your state have a plan for opening back up? I don't know if one has been announced yet. Trying not to watch the news the past few days to give myself a break.

Is your job (or dh's) been effected by Covid? DH's job has been busier because he delivers food. All three of my DC have been laid off.

Have you or anyone in your family had Covid? No

If your state opens back up, how will you behave?  Stay home, go out to everything, only some things? If my state opens up in a manner I agree is safe, I will go out more but with precautions. Probably not go to any large gatherings or travel out of our town until things have settled a bit more.

•  

[Pam in CT]

Here's a nice no-paywall roundup of where all 50 states are, in terms of when current SIP orders/ guidelines are due to lapse and what public statements have been made about plans to re-open.

 

(As several states' orders are due to expire today April 15, it won't be current for very long. But it's interesting and helpful to have it all aggregated in one place.)

[Shoeless]

On 4/13/2020 at 1:25 PM, mommyoffive said:

Do you think states should open back up?  Not all states, fully open. I think some states could open up but others need to stay shut down for awhile longer.

Do you think it should be done state by state or all states at the same time? State by state, and area by area.

What do you think should open back up?  Places that have low-foot traffic or reduced likelihood for people to bunch up on each other. The local florist and shoe store? Sure, open up. The nail and hair salon? I'm not sure yet. Dentists and eye doctors? If they have enough good ppe and a way to screen clients to keep sick people out of the clinic, then tentatively yes. 

What do you think should stay closed?  Restaurants, movie theaters, bowling, Chuck E. Cheese type arcades. Most entertainment venues, because people tend to linger, bunch up, and they don't get cleaned often enough.  Schools! They need to take a few months and map out a plan.  Each state needs to give individual districts some leeway to work out a plan that is best for that district.  What works in a big city may not work well in a small town.  They absolutely have to stop pressuring parents to send sick kids to school, and they are going to have to be forgiving about missed days.  Maybe set up a zoom feed in the classroom so that kids who are too sick to attend, but well enough to listen can still be "in attendance".  Maybe schools will be open year round, but the kids only go for 4 hours and then return home to eat and do online school.  There probably needs to be a combination of approaches and a lot of flexibility if getting kids back in school in September is the priority. 

What modifications do you think should be made if things open back up?  Staff have to wear masks. There has to be training on how to disinfect the store.  Maybe the board of health needs to meet with business owners to evaluate their plan for opening and maintaining sanitation.  Maybe doctors could start doing house calls for routine vaccines, so kids don't get off schedule, and thus reduce traffic in clinics. 

Has your state peaked yet? Not yet

What state are you in? Texas

Does your state have a plan for opening back up? Not yet

Is your job (or dh's) been effected by Covid? Husband has been working from home since March 13. He will be home until at least June 1.  Employer has extended the WFH order 3 times. 

Have you or anyone in your family had Covid? My cousin's mother in law has it. My sister might have had it.  A friend of a friend had it and died. 

If your state opens back up, how will you behave?    Stay home, go out to everything, only some things? It depends on the venue.  The one thing I know my son would like to get back to is art class, but I don't see a way to do in person classes until a vaccine is available.  Our social life will be greatly reduced for several months. I feel comfortable going out to stores with a mask on. 

 

Edited April 16, 2020 by MissLemon

[bolt.]

This article (from a Canadian news source) articulates a Canadian perspective on the US border, and the presumptuous hinting that the USA might simply open it.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/trump-says-canada-s-doing-well-restrictions-at-border-could-ease-soon-1.4898545

It has the US presidential quote, "'Our relationship with Canada is very good -- we'll talk about that. It will be one of the early borders to be released,' the president said. 'Canada's doing well, we're doing well -- so we'll see.'" Followed later in the article with this deadpan analysis: "If indeed the U.S. is anxious to lift the restrictions, the dramatic imbalance in the outbreak's severity in the two countries... could put the [Canadian] federal government in an awkward position."

Which, in short, means that even though the USA might be big, rich, and important to the Canadian economy -- they really can't open our borders without our consent! Canadian policy is not even contemplating economic restarts or cross-border travel for weeks, at least.

We've slowed the spread dramatically, but we are like a kid with our finger in the dam. The coronavirus hasn't gone away: it's on pause. Figuring out how, when (and whether) to gradually release its destructive potential is an important national conversation. It's not going to be dictated by the head-of-state(s) of neighbouring nation(s). Hopefully this is an example of bluster rather than international policy... because it usually is. Even so, I wouldn't like to be the person who has to explain to the US president that he can't just open other country's borders. He can decide whether to allow Canadians into the US. *We* decide whether to allow Americans into Canada.

Edited April 16, 2020 by bolt.

[Shoeless]

34 minutes ago, Happymomof1 said:

So this is what Gov Abbott announced today.  I don't remember the exact dates but it is over the next week to two weeks:

• Schools closed for the year.
• Increased restrictions on nursing homes
• All retail can go to a pick up model
• Hospitals will be able to slowly open up to ( he used a term I can't remember important cases, I'm thinking like cancer treatments and other long term health issue treatments) with a strong eye on beds and ppe and supplies.  Eventually opening up to more elective cases, but always keeping an eye on making sure they are still ready for Covid cases.
• He is reopening the state parks.  Must wear masks.  Must have social distancing.  Will limit entrance, etc. 
• He has formed a task force that will keep making recommendations in the weeks and months to come depending on how things go.

He kept repeating safety.  Part of what he was saying ( but not saying) was they will slow things down and/or reevaluate as they go along to do it safely.  If they see big spikes, they will back up.

This feels reasonable to me. 

 

 

I agree. I feel like this is a sensible first step. Part of me is concerned there will be a spike in cases about 2 weeks after Easter, but I was also concerned about a spike 2 weeks after Spring Break, and that didn't happen the way I feared.  We'll have to see how it goes. 

[mommyoffive]

Here is a good list of some states and what their plans are.

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/which-us-states-are-ready-for-phase-1-of-reopening-after-coronavirus-lockdown/ar-BB12N1hj?ocid=spartandhp

[Sneezyone]

On 4/16/2020 at 12:49 PM, bolt. said:

This article (from a Canadian news source) articulates a Canadian perspective on the US border, and the presumptuous hinting that the USA might simply open it.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/trump-says-canada-s-doing-well-restrictions-at-border-could-ease-soon-1.4898545

It has the US presidential quote, "'Our relationship with Canada is very good -- we'll talk about that. It will be one of the early borders to be released,' the president said. 'Canada's doing well, we're doing well -- so we'll see.'" Followed later in the article with this deadpan analysis: "If indeed the U.S. is anxious to lift the restrictions, the dramatic imbalance in the outbreak's severity in the two countries... could put the [Canadian] federal government in an awkward position."

Which, in short, means that even though the USA might be big, rich, and important to the Canadian economy -- they really can't open our borders without our consent! Canadian policy is not even contemplating economic restarts or cross-border travel for weeks, at least.

We've slowed the spread dramatically, but we are like a kid with our finger in the dam. The coronavirus hasn't gone away: it's on pause. Figuring out how, when (and whether) to gradually release its destructive potential is an important national conversation. It's not going to be dictated by the head-of-state(s) of neighbouring nation(s). Hopefully this is an example of bluster rather than international policy... because it usually is. Even so, I wouldn't like to be the person who has to explain to the US president that he can't just open other country's borders. He can decide whether to allow Canadians into the US. *We* decide whether to allow Americans into Canada.

 

THIS. Governors can do as they choose. They cannot presume that their residents will enjoy freedom of movement outside their borders, particularly if they are not controlling the spread. There's a thread on here about traveling to a funeral. Good luck with that if your state isn't managing the crisis effectively. The lack of a NATIONAL policy may, in fact, create more unpleasant scenes at state borders. This piecemeal approach will put us at a MAJOR disadvantage as the rest of the world begins to resume normal operations (with robust testing and quarantine policies). We will not be able to travel outside the U.S.

Edited April 17, 2020 by Sneezyone

[HeartString]

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

This piecemeal approach will put us at a MAJOR disadvantage as the rest of the world begins to resume normal operations (with robust testing and quarantine policies). We will not be able to travel outside the U.S

I’ve been concerned about this, especially when it comes to the long term.  How will our relationship with the rest of the world be impacted by these decisions.  It seems like almost every country closed sooner than us, stayed closed longer and they all seem to have more control over it.  They all have better testing regiments, better tracing.  It’s going to have an impact, I’m just not savvy enough to see what it will be.  

[kiwik]

On 4/15/2020 at 12:42 AM, MEmama said:

I agree, we are neither shut down nor will anything work effectively if we aren’t on the same page. But Americans, alas, don’t take kindly to being told what to do—even when and sometimes especially if it will hurt them and the ones they care about. And the states are far from united in anything. We are a dysfunctional union, designed that way some 300 years ago and clung to despite all consequences. 
Honestly, for some us “on the inside” it’s as hard to fathom as it must be for you.

To be fair there is a sizable percentage in NZ who feel that the rules don't apply to them and completely ignore the rules. There have been several cases of people having to be rescued after breaking the rules and getting themselves in danger.  I think in some ways though the herd immunity thing applies.  If we can get 90 to 95% to comply even with loud complaints about communism and fascism then we can work round the other 5% or so.  Since the government started talking about stepping back a level (which takes us to similar to the shut states) people have begun to act like it has already happened and the police are having to really clamp down.  I can see having to call out the army for the last few days.

[AmandaVT]

Our Governor announced a little bit of loosening today. 

• Gardening shops and construction supply shops can reopen for online/phone orders and curbside pickup
• Landscaping and construction can work in 2 person (max) crews with masks
• Farmer's markets can open with guidelines to be safe - guidelines haven't been released
• People in "low contact" businesses can come to work, 2 max at a time. Lawyers, accountants, municipal clerks were mentioned as examples

Our cases have gone down a lot - I think we're at less than 10 new cases a day now and have been for a bit. I think the guidelines are reasonable. I think they're going to keep reassessing to see how things are and how many cases we have. Our parks haven't closed- we're pretty spread out in VT and even in the summer, there are so many outside places to go to walk or hike or swim that it's never crowded, so things have been ok on that front. 

[AngieW in Texas]

Do you think states should open back up?  Not yet. I would feel better with widespread testing, quarantining those who test positive, and contact tracing abilities in place.

Do you think it should be done state by state or all states at the same time? I think states should get together in groups. We obviously aren't going to have a national policy because our federal government is refusing to take part in anything.

What do you think should open back up? The first things to open up would be elective surgeries that are elective only in the sense that they are not emergencies. Then any kind of store where you can either phone in an order or order online and they can bring it out to you (no customers actually inside the store). 

What do you think should stay closed? Any places where people are in a confined place for a prolonged period of time (>20 minutes) with close proximity to each other and inadequate ventilation (a classroom would be an ideal example of this)

What modifications do you think should be made if things open back up? Mask wearing any time you are indoors has to be compulsory (at least 80% were wearing masks at the grocery store today!) and maintaining distance. My 24yo works at the grocery store, so I really want everybody wearing masks to keep her and everybody else there safer.

Has your state peaked yet? No. I think we are supposed to peak in 1-2 weeks.

What state are you in? Texas

Does your state have a plan for opening back up? Yes. It isn't awful. He has pretty much opened things up like I said. He closed schools for this semester. 

Is your job (or dh's) been effected by Covid? 26yo is furloughed. 24yo is a grocery store worker and is working full-time and sometimes overtime. 21yo is going to college and has switched to online for the rest of the semester. I am a high school teacher and am teaching through remote learning.

Have you or anyone in your family had Covid? No, but one of the people on staff at my school did. That was well after we were out from spring break, so nobody else at school was exposed.

If your state opens back up, how will you behave?  Stay home, go out to everything, only some things? Still keep outings to a minimum. If school starts up again in the fall with in-person classes, I am going to push for masks for all. I at least need to wear one. I have a heart arrythmia and Covid is supposed to cause havoc with that.

[Carrie12345]

This week in my world: 2 extended family members died, as well as a family friend. 2 family members are still in care homes with high positive cases. Another family member has been hospitalized. 

While I am on board with increasing retail pick up and more medical services (assuming appropriate precautions are taken), I can’t for the life of me figure out why anyone would like to open up the possibility of the people from my world traveling into theirs.

[DawnM]

On 4/14/2020 at 10:15 AM, Paige said:

Do you think states will be forced to reduce class sizes in public schools before reopening? 

 

No way to do that in most of our schools.  We already have trailers outside to accommodate the growth.  I think most schools are in similar situations.

[TechWife]

5 hours ago, DawnM said:

 

No way to do that in most of our schools.  We already have trailers outside to accommodate the growth.  I think most schools are in similar situations.

I'm in a high growth area, too. Trailers and year round schedules are the norm. But, if we re-prioritize spending, it could happen. I am truly befuddled sometimes when I think of how consideration for the common good has fallen by the wayside.

Many communities in our area have clubhouses. We have a beautiful clubhouse in our community with one room that has a max capacity of 100 and several smaller rooms. It also has a kitchen and two sets of bathrooms. That could be converted to a small school temporarily and neighborhood children could attend in shifts according to their age or subject with strict cleaning protocols in place. We have several teachers in the neighborhood as well that could be assigned there if there was a way to make it so that they can competently work outside of their specialty, licensed area - lots of remote support for them in learning & organizing new material, for example. This would keep any resulting virus spread in the immediate community instead of the wider city as well.

There are also a lot of privately owned buildings with multiple rooms - churches are one example - they could be used as schools during the week if existing districts are split up to make smaller schools, or even if certain grades were sent to alternative sites with smaller class sizes. Vacant office buildings and even buildings owned by companies that have a work force that could easily work from home could be used. There are dozens of empty to near empty office buildings in our area and even more available if you include companies that keep part or all of their work force home to work. Now, would these schools be able to provide a full day of learning with hot meals, physical education, etc. - probably not in all circumstances. But, it would be better than what is happening now or what could happen if schools are opened indiscriminately. Employing a university model where students attend class two or three days a week and study independently might also be helpful.

There are potential solutions, but we have to think outside the box and we have to realize that striving for the perfect solution can be the enemy of accepting what a good, workable alternative might look like.

[Guest]

I am more than half expecting my community center to be turned back into a school for the fall (it used to be a high school, and then an elementary school, and then two new schools were built to replace it about 20 years ago, so it became a community facility for classes, sports, etc). It's not a big building-maybe 12 classrooms, a cafetorium, and a gym, plus a few smaller office-type rooms, but if you moved, say, the 5th grade of one school to that building, it would allow small enough class sizes for that grade to allow social distancing, and also give that many classrooms open to separate another grade or two into. If we added temporary walls, the gym could hold a few classes as well-it's big enough to have two full basketball courts.

 

I'm mentally toying with the idea of submitting my resume, just in case they need extra certificated teachers next fall to allow smaller classes. I'm torn because I hadn't planned to ever go back to the school system, and it's DD's senior year. I'd prefer to be at home. But it seems like it might be an area of need, and I just did all the paperwork to renew my license, so I'm good there.

 

Edited April 18, 2020 by dmmetler

[iamonlyone]

Cross post:

I posted this on the main virus thread, but I would like to see more counties start taking steps like the following. (This is the county in Kansas where our younger daughter goes to college, although she is home now.)

"Johnson County has launched its $400,000 program expanding community testing in order to better collect data on the outbreak of COVID-19. The county is inviting hundreds of randomly selected residents, who are supposed to be representative of the population, to be tested at a drive-thru location.

"Meanwhile, Johnson County has also collected data about the coronavirus outbreak through an online survey, which was available last week. Areola said more than 72,000 people responded, with about 1.5% reporting that they might have symptoms.

"In addition to testing randomly selected residents, this week the county is starting to expand testing for nursing home staff and clients, as well as front-line workers, such as grocery store employees, delivery drivers and first responders."

www.kansascity.com/news/local/article242010356.html

 

Edited April 18, 2020 by iamonlyone